Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[ss]

On Wednesday 29 Apr 2009 1:11:34 am Thaths wrote:
> Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
> India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,”

Relevant here are the British views that endured and played a role in the 
British Liaison with the Muslim league and Jinnah and the later formation of 
Pakistan.

When the British later handed their imperial baton to the US - the US took uop 
the same causes with enthusiasm. And now we have the Taliban.

India need not worry about the Taliban. Pakistan and the Taliban are one and 
the same. India will deal with the Taliban as it has dealt with Pakistan. 
Only the US and the West need to worry.

take a look at this:
http://www.newstatesman.com/asia/2009/04/india-british-raj-pakistan

>  When Churchill argued vehemently against Indian independence in the 1930s,
> his fire was directed mainly at the Hindus (in contrast, he praised
> Muslims, whose valour and virility he admired). As the Second World War
> neared its close, the British prime minister was so consumed by hatred of
> the Hindus that he told his private secretary John Colville that he wanted
> extraordinary destruction visited upon them. Colville’s The Fringes of
> Power records the extreme nature of his master’s feelings in February 1945,
> just ­after his return from Yalta: "The PM said the Hindus were a foul race
> “protected by their mere pullulation from the doom that is due” and he
> wished Bert [Bomber] Harris could send some of his surplus bombers to
> destroy them."

shiv

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[ss]

On Wednesday 29 Apr 2009 6:35:49 pm Bharat Shetty wrote:
> So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun

I intend to buy this book too - the woman has some interesting thoughts. 


shiv

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Tim Bray]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Radhika, Y.  wrote:
>  One friend felt the Mahabharat to be highly
> casteist - the prejudice is openly displayed

Well, to be honest, essentially all of the world's key religious texts
are primitive, based in a tribal world-view; they encourage violence,
sexual oppression, and all sorts of behavior that a modern reasonably
civilized person would consider unacceptable.  -T

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Venkat Mangudi]

Ravi Bellur wrote:
> perspective part). "The Girl with Two Breasts" I think is the name of the
> episode. Shadaym!!

"If women knew what went on here [pointing at his head], they would kill
us on the spot. Men are not people. We are disgustoids in human form"
Jeff in coupling, above episode.

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Venkat Mangudi]

Ravi Bellur wrote:
> it'll ruin it -- I have no idea what language Jeff speaks in the second
> perspective part). "The Girl with Two Breasts" I think is the name of the
> episode. Shadaym!!

Shdaym it is... Awesome episode. Have to watch it tonight before I
sleep. :-)

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Ravi Bellur]

>
>
> There are so many brilliant episodes and scenes. But I think 
>  inferno is my favourite especially the scene where Steve tries
> to explain the plot at the table :)
>
> -- Vinayak
>


Ah, Lesbian Spank Inferno. Good one. But my favorite has to be the one with
the Israeli girl seen twice, each time from the perspective of only
understanding one of the languages (don't watch with Hebrew speakers or
it'll ruin it -- I have no idea what language Jeff speaks in the second
perspective part). "The Girl with Two Breasts" I think is the name of the
episode. Shadaym!!

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Vinayak Hegde]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Venkat Mangudi  wrote:
> Ravi Bellur wrote:
>>
>> "I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish!"
>
> No, I am Giselle.
>
> No, I am Giselle!
>
> And then the island Lesbos! :-)

There are so many brilliant episodes and scenes. But I think 
 inferno is my favourite especially the scene where Steve tries
to explain the plot at the table :)

-- Vinayak

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[.]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Thaths  wrote:
>
> Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
> India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete
> with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit
> philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In
> fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language
> exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the
> hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that
> the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early
> Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian
> civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were
> closer to the mark.)


http://www.indiadivine.org/articles/236/1/Bhavishya-Purana-The-Prediction-of-Jesus-Christ/Page1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana

Smoking anything in Indian summers is harakiri to health.
-- 
.

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Venkat Mangudi]

Ravi Bellur wrote:
> 
> "I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish!"

No, I am Giselle.

No, I am Giselle!

And then the island Lesbos! :-)

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Ravi Bellur]

>
>  (hidden connections ala Seinfeld)
>

YES YES YES!! That's what's so brilliant -- how 3 or more seemingly indepent
plot lines end up dovetailing multiplicatively. You have made my day :-) I
wish my DVDs weren't on the other side of the world at the moment.

"I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish!"

"And I'm Dick Darlington!"

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Venkat Mangudi]

Vinayak Hegde wrote:
> I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
> remake by NBC which was pretty lame)

I have four seasons of the show, if anyone is interested...

Venkat

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Vinayak Hegde]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Ravi Bellur  wrote:
>> I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
>> remake by NBC which was pretty lame)
>>
>> -- Vinayak
>> 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)
>
> You could not be more right. I loved the UK Coupling, own every episode.
> Jeff Murdoch is a prophet! :-)

Yay ! another coupling fan :) The wordplay, the double entendres
(hidden connections ala Seinfeld) interspersed all over the dialogue
makes it more fun to watch it with friends as they are sometimes
difficult to spot.

-- Vinayak

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Ravi Bellur]

>
>
>
>
> I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
> remake by NBC which was pretty lame)
>
> -- Vinayak
> 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)
>

You could not be more right. I loved the UK Coupling, own every episode.
Jeff Murdoch is a prophet! :-)

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Ravi Bellur]

>
>
>
> Will someone please invent a USB breathalizer so I don't send things like
> this at times like now. :-)
>


And when I get ripped a new one for writing this, I'll assume its in good
humor, and savor the fact that the folks who tried to vote in their dream of
America being their "Christian Nation," got their asses handed to them last
November. They're welcome to make their homes a Christian Nation, but
America is a secular nation -- just look up Ben Franklin's, John Adam's (2nd
Pres of US), and Thomas Jefferson's (Polymath and 3rd US President) quotes
on Christianity (or religion in general). I just watched Bill Mahar's
documentary "Religulous" and it's amazing what some American Christians
think Jesus said that he never did say or mean. How convenient to them
though, huh? Seems to perfectly alighn with their own self-interests.

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Vinayak Hegde]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Ravi Bellur  wrote:
>> Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day
>> celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with
>> devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no
>> dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home.
>
> Brits were kinda uptight back then. See "The Family Guy" for the scene where
> they depict British Porn (probably on You Tube). Hilarious.

I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
remake by NBC which was pretty lame)

-- Vinayak
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Ravi Bellur]

>
>
> Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day
> celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with
> devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no
> dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home.


Brits were kinda uptight back then. See "The Family Guy" for the scene where
they depict British Porn (probably on You Tube). Hilarious.



> Recoiling
> from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively
> rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj
> Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard;
> it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines
> and horizons.”


Yeah, as an infidel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel) -- welcome to
Monotheism: there can be only one

>
>
> The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples
> of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely
> indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a
> “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still
> widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx
> inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded
> himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god.
>
Fornication rules. Watch the Animal Channel -- under our civilian vaneer we
are so much like our primate cousins that it's chilling.


>
> Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
> India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete
> with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit
> philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In
> fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language
> exclusive to Brahmins.


My ancestors were Brahmins -- both landlords and civil servants in recent
history. When I hear how they treated non-Brahmins, it makes me furious.
Egalitarianism isn't beneficient, it's protecting ones own freedom.


>
> And they found keen
> collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This
> British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented
> traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries


Everybody wants to rule the world. That should be the qualifiing test to
make sure that you're never allowed to.


>
> These mostly
> upper-caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the
> modernization and homogenization of “Hinduism.”


And in the US, rich people brandish Christianity while mocking Obama for
saying "We all do better when we share the wealth a little bit." What kind
of pinko commie would say that (Why... their own Jesus Christ). People with
money and power use whatever powers they can to hold their own positions and
enfranchise their children  to it.


>
>
>  Far from being a slave to mindless
> superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view
> of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of
> the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as
> villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in
> a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians
> of the so-called war on terror.


Polemic thought makes everything easier. It makes hate and love so much more
passionate. Nevermind that it mirrors almost nothing in the natural world.
Brain hurt me think too hard, ugh.


>
>  As she puts it, “It’s not all about Brahmins, Sanskrit, the
> Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who destroyed
> innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions of Indians
> to Islam.


It makes perfect sense to me that people disenfranchised by Hinduism would
willingly convert. Shovel your own nightsoil, Brahmins. BTW, Christianity
permeanted the Roman Empire in the same way -- blessed are the poor? One
life and then heaven? Where do I sign up?!? Can't blame 'em. I'd have done
the same.


>
> Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the fanatics who
> perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities and commodious
> metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to their project
> of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state.


I think they'd find any pretext for this. I'm somewhat surprised how violent
the empahtically indenfied Hindus are here.

Lets do some empericism.

Traits of the most economically successful countries with the highest
average level quality of life:
1) Not very religious
2) Highly egalitarian
3) Polite drivers who follow the rules
4) Low corruption
5) Alcohol consumption
6) High degree of women's rights, and promiscuity
7) Low or no abject poverty
8) Low violence and crime

(I'm not talking about the US on this -- mainly western Europe)

I dunno what it is but the countries that treat women like second class
citizens, are incredibly concerned about everyone elses sex life (and
limiting it), drive like thoughless m

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Bharat Shetty]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Bonobashi  wrote:

> That was intended to be funny. Give me a break, do.
Oh k, sarcasm and humor keeps all of us sane and healthy, I believe :-)

> I never comment on religion or respond to the religious, of whatever 
> confession. If ever I do, it is >safe to assume that it is an attempt at 
> humour. In this case, a terribly misplaced attempt.

Point noted. :-)

Regards,

-- Bharat | http://twitter.com/shettyb

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Kiran K Karthikeyan]

>
> Searching through the Philadelphia Inquirer's archives (from 1981 to
> present) failed to yield that infamous November 19, 2000 quote by
> Doniger about the Gita being "a dishonest book" and "not as nice a book
> as Americans think".


Yes. I tried the same and couldn't, but even if you do, you have to pay
$2.95 to access the article. But searching for it yields too many results
for it to be a case of misquoting. Also, among the search results, I don't
see any which mention she was misquoted. If you do, please let me know.


> I don't think many would disagree that it
> proclaims just wars to be justified.
>

The reasoning is little more complicated than that, but if you want to sum
up the philosophy in a few words by interpreting it only in the context in
which the sermon was delivered, then yes, I suppose you could arrive at that
conclusion.

Kiran

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Ravi Bellur]

>
>
>
> Having said that, I wonder if there is any service that allows people
> at USA order books from Indian stores with delivery to the US listed
> addresses ?


The books I get here are WAY cheaper than the US, but they almost all
say "For sale only in India, Pakistan, Bangalesh, Sri Lanka, etc." Just like
region codes for DVDs, it's a scheme to base prices on the cost of living.
Fair enough, that's business.

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Bonobashi]

For Chris' sakes.

That was intended to be funny. Give me a break, do.

I never comment on religion or respond to the religious, of whatever 
confession. If ever I do, it is safe to assume that it is an attempt at humour. 
In this case, a terribly misplaced attempt.

--- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty  wrote:

> From: Bharat Shetty 
> Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An  
> Alternate History')
> To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
> Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 7:39 PM
> Ok,
> 
> You make me sound like I'm actually on a side. I will
> rephrase my
> sentence, if that makes you happy.
> 
> I will take back that I'm going to read that book for fun
> statement.
> Instead, honestly I want to know the other alternative view
> point and
> I'm a person who reads and want to know all view points.
> 
> Guha's books are more of selected facts based on selected
> research and
> most of them are accurate and valid. But still I still
> stand to my
> view that he carefully writes the way he wants. Anyone who
> reads his
> book can make that out. Did I say there was no Hindu
> Mahasabha and
> they were an organization without flaws ?
> 
> You are only bringing that here. And as for your points on
> why they
> wont burn his books, Guha hardly writes any stuffs that are
> viewed
> sensitively like Arun Shourie who wrote a book on Ambedkar
> and was
> dragged into streets and abused physically and that book
> was
> subsequently banned.
> 
> You seem to forget that Hindu Mahasabha got chided out for
> protesting
> against partition, which itself is root of many communal
> problems
> plaguing out country these days.
> 
> -- Bharat
> 
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Bonobashi 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty 
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Bharat Shetty 
> >> Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book
> Review of 'The Hindus, An  Alternate History')
> >> To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
> >> Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM
> >> Ah Kiran,
> >>
> >> I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are
> both
> >> generally well
> >> criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been
> criticized and
> >> proved to
> >> be hollow before and these are the types of
> writers who
> >> along with
> >> Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make
> their
> >> side of
> >> argument stand out.
> >
> >
> > As opposed to the other type of writer who try to
> write carelessly 'as to make their side of argument' stand
> in?
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Ramachandra guha is another example. He would
> cleverly
> >> filter out
> >> non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.
> >
> >
> >
> > What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all
> on the Hindu Mahasabha in this base, rotten scoundrel's
> books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his book?
> Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> So I would pick a low priced copy of this book
> just for the
> >> reading fun :-)
> >
> >
> > Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended
> to in suitably earnest mood, with some tissues at one's
> side. What fun?
> >
> >
> >> -- Bharat
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K
> Karthikeyan
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >> > 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty 
> >> >
> >> >> Ok, fairly interesting book.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Looks like Doniger is somebody whose
> scholarship
> >> disputed and has a fairly
> >> > strong inclination to favor a sexual
> interpretation of
> >> Hindu texts. But as
> >> > the article below points out, this malaise
> has spread
> >> throughout US Hinduism
> >> > studies.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
> >> >
> >> > This particular excerpt from the article was
> enough to
> >> convince me that she
> >> > should be read with a pinch of salt -
> >> >
> >> > [University of Chicago professor Wendy
> Doniger has
> >> been quoted in the
> >> > Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad
> Gita, a
> >> sacred Hindu text, "a
> >> > dishonest book" that "justifies war."]
> >> >
> >> > I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read
> 4
> >> > versions/translations/interpretations, and
> I'm
> >> confused on how she arrived
> >> > at this conclusion. The wikipedia article
> doesn't
> >> speak too highly of her
> >> > either (though it is disputed), so you if you
> are
> >> reading it, you might want
> >> > to check out the talk section for it too.
> >> >
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
> >> >
> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
> >> >
> >> > But if you do manage to find a lower priced
> India
> >> copy, do let me know. I'm
> >> > poor too :)
> >> >
> >> > Kiran
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >      Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers
> and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> 
> 


  Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to 
http://in.business.yahoo.com/

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Bharat Shetty]

Ok,

You make me sound like I'm actually on a side. I will rephrase my
sentence, if that makes you happy.

I will take back that I'm going to read that book for fun statement.
Instead, honestly I want to know the other alternative view point and
I'm a person who reads and want to know all view points.

Guha's books are more of selected facts based on selected research and
most of them are accurate and valid. But still I still stand to my
view that he carefully writes the way he wants. Anyone who reads his
book can make that out. Did I say there was no Hindu Mahasabha and
they were an organization without flaws ?

You are only bringing that here. And as for your points on why they
wont burn his books, Guha hardly writes any stuffs that are viewed
sensitively like Arun Shourie who wrote a book on Ambedkar and was
dragged into streets and abused physically and that book was
subsequently banned.

You seem to forget that Hindu Mahasabha got chided out for protesting
against partition, which itself is root of many communal problems
plaguing out country these days.

-- Bharat

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Bonobashi  wrote:
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty  wrote:
>
>> From: Bharat Shetty 
>> Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An  
>> Alternate History')
>> To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
>> Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM
>> Ah Kiran,
>>
>> I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both
>> generally well
>> criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and
>> proved to
>> be hollow before and these are the types of writers who
>> along with
>> Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their
>> side of
>> argument stand out.
>
>
> As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to 
> make their side of argument' stand in?
>
>
>
>>
>> Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly
>> filter out
>> non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.
>
>
>
> What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha 
> in this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn 
> his book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy?
>
>
>>
>> So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the
>> reading fun :-)
>
>
> Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest 
> mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun?
>
>
>> -- Bharat
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
>> 
>> wrote:
>> > 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty 
>> >
>> >> Ok, fairly interesting book.
>> >
>> >
>> > Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship
>> disputed and has a fairly
>> > strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of
>> Hindu texts. But as
>> > the article below points out, this malaise has spread
>> throughout US Hinduism
>> > studies.
>> >
>> > http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
>> >
>> > This particular excerpt from the article was enough to
>> convince me that she
>> > should be read with a pinch of salt -
>> >
>> > [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has
>> been quoted in the
>> > Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a
>> sacred Hindu text, "a
>> > dishonest book" that "justifies war."]
>> >
>> > I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
>> > versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm
>> confused on how she arrived
>> > at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't
>> speak too highly of her
>> > either (though it is disputed), so you if you are
>> reading it, you might want
>> > to check out the talk section for it too.
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
>> >
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
>> >
>> > But if you do manage to find a lower priced India
>> copy, do let me know. I'm
>> > poor too :)
>> >
>> > Kiran
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>      Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to 
> http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
>
>

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Bonobashi]

--- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty  wrote:

> From: Bharat Shetty 
> Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An  
> Alternate History')
> To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
> Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM
> Ah Kiran,
> 
> I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both
> generally well
> criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and
> proved to
> be hollow before and these are the types of writers who
> along with
> Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their
> side of
> argument stand out.


As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to make 
their side of argument' stand in?



> 
> Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly
> filter out
> non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.



What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha in 
this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his 
book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy?


> 
> So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the
> reading fun :-)


Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest 
mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun?


> -- Bharat
> 
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
> 
> wrote:
> > 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty 
> >
> >> Ok, fairly interesting book.
> >
> >
> > Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship
> disputed and has a fairly
> > strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of
> Hindu texts. But as
> > the article below points out, this malaise has spread
> throughout US Hinduism
> > studies.
> >
> > http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
> >
> > This particular excerpt from the article was enough to
> convince me that she
> > should be read with a pinch of salt -
> >
> > [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has
> been quoted in the
> > Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a
> sacred Hindu text, "a
> > dishonest book" that "justifies war."]
> >
> > I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
> > versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm
> confused on how she arrived
> > at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't
> speak too highly of her
> > either (though it is disputed), so you if you are
> reading it, you might want
> > to check out the talk section for it too.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
> >
> > But if you do manage to find a lower priced India
> copy, do let me know. I'm
> > poor too :)
> >
> > Kiran
> >
> 
> 


  Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to 
http://in.movies.yahoo.com/

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Radhika, Y.]

I am just wondering whether these reviewers would consider Michaevelli's The
Prince as an "honest" book while the Gita is "dishonest"? Just because one
provides no apologia while the other seems to qualify it's message based on
the position in society? One friend felt the Mahabharat to be highly
casteist - the prejudice is openly displayed visavis Karna for example as
the adopted son of a charioteer. I agree. Of course this person was Greek
and did not seem to think the Odyssey has a fair amount of fatalism.

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:05 AM, Bharat Shetty wrote:

> Ah Kiran,
>
> I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well
> criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to
> be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with
> Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of
> argument stand out.
>
> Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out
> non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.
>
> So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-)
>
> -- Bharat
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
>  wrote:
> > 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty 
> >
> >> Ok, fairly interesting book.
> >
> >
> > Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a
> fairly
> > strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But
> as
> > the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US
> Hinduism
> > studies.
> >
> >
> http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
> >
> > This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that
> she
> > should be read with a pinch of salt -
> >
> > [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
> > Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, "a
> > dishonest book" that "justifies war."]
> >
> > I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
> > versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she
> arrived
> > at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her
> > either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might
> want
> > to check out the talk section for it too.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
> >
> > But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know.
> I'm
> > poor too :)
> >
> > Kiran
> >
>
>

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Bharat Shetty]

Ah Kiran,

I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well
criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to
be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with
Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of
argument stand out.

Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out
non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.

So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-)

-- Bharat

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
 wrote:
> 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty 
>
>> Ok, fairly interesting book.
>
>
> Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly
> strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as
> the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism
> studies.
>
> http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
>
> This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she
> should be read with a pinch of salt -
>
> [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
> Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, "a
> dishonest book" that "justifies war."]
>
> I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
> versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived
> at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her
> either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want
> to check out the talk section for it too.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
>
> But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm
> poor too :)
>
> Kiran
>

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Pranesh Prakash]

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 17:27 +0530, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote:
> Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly
> strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. 

She seems inclined to use Freud, yes.

> But as
> the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism
> studies.
> 
> http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
> 
> This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she
> should be read with a pinch of salt -
> 
> [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
> Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, "a
> dishonest book" that "justifies war."]
> 

You can add
 to 
you collection of anti-Doniger screeds.  "Bagger Vance" and "R. Junuh" indeed!  

Searching through the Philadelphia Inquirer's archives (from 1981 to
present) failed to yield that infamous November 19, 2000 quote by
Doniger about the Gita being "a dishonest book" and "not as nice a book
as Americans think".  I don't think many would disagree that it
proclaims just wars to be justified.

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Kiran K Karthikeyan]

2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty 

> Ok, fairly interesting book.


Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly
strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as
the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism
studies.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1

This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she
should be read with a pinch of salt -

[University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, "a
dishonest book" that "justifies war."]

I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived
at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her
either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want
to check out the talk section for it too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger

But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm
poor too :)

Kiran

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Bharat Shetty]

Ok, fairly interesting book. But the price tag is too high for a poor
guy like me :-(.

I'd hope it becomes available in the public libraries at the place I
stay now at, or I'd have to outsource it from India to here.

Having said that, I wonder if there is any service that allows people
at USA order books from Indian stores with delivery to the US listed
addresses ?

-- Bharat

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Thaths  wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/books/review/Mishra-t.html?pagewanted=print
>
> Another Incarnation
> By PANKAJ MISHRA
>
> THE HINDUS
>
> An Alternative History
>
> By Wendy Doniger
>
> 779 pp. The Penguin Press. $35
>
> Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day
> celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with
> devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no
> dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home. Recoiling
> from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively
> rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj
> Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard;
> it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines
> and horizons.”
>
> Forster, who later used his appalled fascination with India’s
> polytheistic muddle to superb effect in his novel “A Passage to
> India,” was only one in a long line of Britons who felt their notions
> of order and morality challenged by Indian religious and cultural
> practices. The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples
> of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely
> indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a
> “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still
> widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx
> inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded
> himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god.
>
> Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
> India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete
> with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit
> philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In
> fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language
> exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the
> hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that
> the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early
> Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian
> civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were
> closer to the mark.)
>
> As Wendy Doniger, a scholar of Indian religions at the University of
> Chicago, explains in her staggeringly comprehensive book, the British
> Indologists who sought to tame India’s chaotic polytheisms had a
> “Protestant bias in favor of scripture.” In “privileging” Sanskrit
> over local languages, she writes, they created what has proved to be
> an enduring impression of a “unified Hinduism.” And they found keen
> collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This
> British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented
> traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries — has
> continued to find many takers among semi-Westernized Hindus suffering
> from an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the apparently more successful
> and organized religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
>
> The Hindu nationalists of today, who long for India to become a
> muscular international power, stand in a direct line of 19th-century
> Indian reform movements devoted to purifying and reviving a Hinduism
> perceived as having grown too fragmented and weak. These mostly
> upper-caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the
> modernization and homogenization of “Hinduism.”
>
> Still, the nontextual, syncretic religious and philosophical
> traditions of India that escaped the attention of British scholars
> flourish even today. Popular devotional cults, shrines, festivals,
> rites and legends that vary across India still form the worldview of a
> majority of Indians. Goddesses, as Doniger writes, “continue to
> evolve.” Bollywood produced the most popular one of my North Indian
> childhood: Santoshi Mata, who seemed to fulfill the materialistic
> wishes of newly urbanized Hindus. Far from being a slave to mindless
> superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view
> of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of
> the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as
> villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in
> a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians
> of the so-called war on terror.
>
> Doniger sets herself the ambitious task of writing “a narrative
> alternative to the one constituted by the most famous texts in
> S

[silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

[Thaths]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/books/review/Mishra-t.html?pagewanted=print

Another Incarnation
By PANKAJ MISHRA

THE HINDUS

An Alternative History

By Wendy Doniger

779 pp. The Penguin Press. $35

Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day
celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with
devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no
dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home. Recoiling
from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively
rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj
Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard;
it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines
and horizons.”

Forster, who later used his appalled fascination with India’s
polytheistic muddle to superb effect in his novel “A Passage to
India,” was only one in a long line of Britons who felt their notions
of order and morality challenged by Indian religious and cultural
practices. The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples
of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely
indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a
“place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still
widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx
inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded
himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god.

Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete
with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit
philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In
fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language
exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the
hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that
the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early
Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian
civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were
closer to the mark.)

As Wendy Doniger, a scholar of Indian religions at the University of
Chicago, explains in her staggeringly comprehensive book, the British
Indologists who sought to tame India’s chaotic polytheisms had a
“Protestant bias in favor of scripture.” In “privileging” Sanskrit
over local languages, she writes, they created what has proved to be
an enduring impression of a “unified Hinduism.” And they found keen
collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This
British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented
traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries — has
continued to find many takers among semi-Westernized Hindus suffering
from an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the apparently more successful
and organized religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

The Hindu nationalists of today, who long for India to become a
muscular international power, stand in a direct line of 19th-century
Indian reform movements devoted to purifying and reviving a Hinduism
perceived as having grown too fragmented and weak. These mostly
upper-caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the
modernization and homogenization of “Hinduism.”

Still, the nontextual, syncretic religious and philosophical
traditions of India that escaped the attention of British scholars
flourish even today. Popular devotional cults, shrines, festivals,
rites and legends that vary across India still form the worldview of a
majority of Indians. Goddesses, as Doniger writes, “continue to
evolve.” Bollywood produced the most popular one of my North Indian
childhood: Santoshi Mata, who seemed to fulfill the materialistic
wishes of newly urbanized Hindus. Far from being a slave to mindless
superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view
of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of
the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as
villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in
a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians
of the so-called war on terror.

Doniger sets herself the ambitious task of writing “a narrative
alternative to the one constituted by the most famous texts in
Sanskrit.” As she puts it, “It’s not all about Brahmins, Sanskrit, the
Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who destroyed
innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions of Indians
to Islam. Doniger, who cannot but be aware of the political
historiography of Hindu nationalists, the most powerful interpreters
of Indian religions in both India and abroad today, also wishes to
provide an “alternative to the narrative of Hindu history that they
tell.”

She writes at length about the devotional “bhakti” tradition, an
ecstatic and radically egalitarian form of Hindu rel