Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 09:46:44PM +0300, ashok _ wrote: > Even the BBC is not sacrosanct... it wasnt long back that there was a I gave up on mass media some 15 years ago. Right now I can't even to the local government-sponsored radio for a few minutes, without instant nausea from propaganda and shallowness. Nobody dares touch the truly important topics with a 10 ft pole. -- Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
Even the BBC is not sacrosanct... it wasnt long back that there was a controversy about video media players on their site. Then yesterday, on their "Digital Planet" radio show on the world-service.. the program was almost entirely devoted to microsoft...they even had a guy come on and flay openoffice http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4849402.stm On 9/19/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 10:57:36AM +0530, Biju Chacko wrote: > > > At that point, other advantages come into play. For the man on the > > street, let's face it, software is just a tool. Choices should be made > > based on what the best tool for job is. > > Somebody make Redmond play fair, then. It's not like they didn't > a lot of bullying and backstabbing to get where they are, so why > the kid gloves? It's only fair if things eventually come > around, and it's them who're squealing. >
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 10:57:36AM +0530, Biju Chacko wrote: > At that point, other advantages come into play. For the man on the > street, let's face it, software is just a tool. Choices should be made > based on what the best tool for job is. Somebody make Redmond play fair, then. It's not like they didn't a lot of bullying and backstabbing to get where they are, so why the kid gloves? It's only fair if things eventually come around, and it's them who're squealing. I wish I could ignore them, but I'm faced to deal daily with their crap, which is a direct result of business-types ignoramuses. Even developers don't make the connection why their stuff runs on one OS fine, and craps out on the other. And don't tell me I have a choice of making a career in FOSS. -- Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Biju Chacko wrote: > Venky (Hariharan) would be able to comment more on this, but when I > was in Red Hat I remember working on a proposed curriculum that was > neutral. It had items like "How to use a Word Processor" rather than > "How to use MS Word" or even "How to use OpenOffice.org". It had > suggestions for what software could be used to teach the curriculum, > with both FOSS and proprietary software listed. I think that the above mentioned work-in-progress is still WIP with some additional bits thrown in as to what all could be suggested as a necessary (but optional ?) reading to get FOSS "going". A generic syllabus does help in terms of providing choice. However, I have seen examples where a generic syllabus did not do much to change status quo due to lack of proper training or skills -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG8LicXQZpNTcrCzMRAlzwAKCkKnA1Ff6MpTO5qBzcyRnqWI7r4wCdG2bj rqEjNYT0OE+bDA+89Dse9eA= =DhxG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
Biju Chacko wrote [at 10:24 AM 9/19/2007] : FOSS doesn't deserve to become ubiquitous if the only way it can do so is by reservations (affirmative action in US lingo). I am not sure if I agree. The reason? Metcalfe's Law, which means that the switching cost from a ubiquitous platform to a non-ubiquitous one can be prohibitive, absent the kind of 'nudge' that such a reservation would provide. See, for example, http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/klemperer/Farrell_KlempererWP.pdf from the abstract: Switching costs and network effects bind customers to vendors if products are incompatible, locking customers or even markets in to early choices. Lock-in hinders customers from changing suppliers in response to (predictable or unpredictable) changes in efficiency, and gives vendors lucrative ex post market power|over the same buyer in the case of switching costs (or brand loyalty), or over others with network effects. Firms compete ex ante for this ex post power, using penetration pricing, introductory offers, and price wars. Such "competition for the market" or "life-cycle competition" can adequately replace ordinary compatible competition, and can even be fiercer than compatible competition by weakening differentiation. More often, however, incompatible competition not only involves direct efficiency losses but also softens competition and magnifies incumbency advantages. With network effects, established firms have little incentive to offer better deals when buyers' and complementors' expectations hinge on non-efficiency factors (especially history such as past market shares), and although competition between incompatible networks is initially unstable and sensitive to competitive offers and random events, it later "tips" to monopoly, after which entry is hard, often even too hard given incompatibility. And while switching costs can encourage small-scale entry, they discourage sellers from raiding one another's existing customers, and so also discourage more aggressive entry. Because of these competitive effects, even inefficient incompatible competition is often more profitable than compatible competition, especially for dominant firms with installed-base or expectational advantages. Thus firms probably seek incompatibility too often. We therefore favor thoughtfully pro-compatibility public policy. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 9/19/07, Biju Chacko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Venky (Hariharan) would be able to comment more on this, but when I > was in Red Hat I remember working on a proposed curriculum that was > neutral. It had items like "How to use a Word Processor" rather than > "How to use MS Word" or even "How to use OpenOffice.org". It had > suggestions for what software could be used to teach the curriculum, > with both FOSS and proprietary software listed. > > FOSS doesn't deserve to become ubiquitous if the only way it can do so > is by reservations (affirmative action in US lingo). I agree with Biju. What we have been consistently proposing as part of Red Hat is that the education system must teach principles and not products. It should also not endorse brand names. Slowly we are seeing this arguement gaining traction. Part of the Kerala syllabus for IT is available at: http://www.education.kerala.gov.in/eng_infortec.htm A cursory check reveals that most of these examples are Linux based (or GNU/Linux to use their exact terminology :-) but they do speak about Windows also. For those who are interested in public policy, I would recommend reading the Kerala Government's IT Policy: http://www.keralaitmission.org/web/main/ITPolicy-2007.pdf I really liked it because it starts with a vision of how to build an inclusive information society unlike most IT policies which are cut and dry documents detailing various tax sops to industry. Also, having met some of the people behind this policy, I must say that I have great respect for their intentions and their ability to implement them in real life. In a country where policy documents are nothing but pious intentions, the Kerala policy makers are a refreshing change. I hope from the bottom of my heart that they succeed. Venky
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 9/19/07, Udhay Shankar N <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Biju Chacko wrote [at 10:24 AM 9/19/2007] : > > >FOSS doesn't deserve to become ubiquitous if the only way it can do so > >is by reservations (affirmative action in US lingo). > > I am not sure if I agree. The reason? Metcalfe's Law, which means > that the switching cost from a ubiquitous platform to a > non-ubiquitous one can be prohibitive, absent the kind of 'nudge' > that such a reservation would provide. That's correct to some extent. IMO, however, when it comes to office productivity such costs are now fairly low. The file formats are common and for most purposes the UI is the same so training needs are minimal. At that point, other advantages come into play. For the man on the street, let's face it, software is just a tool. Choices should be made based on what the best tool for job is. -- b
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 9/18/07, Sriram Karra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 9/18/07, Biju Chacko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > This is really braindead. I'd have preferred to see a curriculum that > > was free of *anybody's* political agenda. The curriculum ought to be > > teaching concepts that could be learned on any kind of software -- > > free or otherwise. > > That was how it was in simpler times. We learnt data strutures and > algorithms using Pascal for two years in 11th and 12th. This was the > CBSE in the early-mid nineties. > > The whole thing is not as simple any more. Some issues at play: > > 1. With the trend to start 'Computer' classes earlier and earlier, I > suppose it becomes very difficult to talk in terms of abstract > concepts for too long. > > 2. There aren't too many clueful teachers around - even in upmarket > urban schools - who can be relied upon to take an educated call on > what software is the right tool for teaching a set of concepts. This > would either (a) expose schools to the guile and charm of well fed > marketeers from companies such as Microsoft, or (b) render a syllabus > completely useless for those 'unfortunate' to be off corporate radars Venky (Hariharan) would be able to comment more on this, but when I was in Red Hat I remember working on a proposed curriculum that was neutral. It had items like "How to use a Word Processor" rather than "How to use MS Word" or even "How to use OpenOffice.org". It had suggestions for what software could be used to teach the curriculum, with both FOSS and proprietary software listed. FOSS doesn't deserve to become ubiquitous if the only way it can do so is by reservations (affirmative action in US lingo). -- b
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
shiv sastry wrote: [ on 06:03 AM 9/19/2007 ] It just occurred to me that the communist dominated Kerala government might see Linux as a route to avoid "subservience" to the United States and its capitalist lackey Microsoft that is enforcing the imperialist agenda of the US. Kerala (for whatever reason) happens to be the place where the FSF has a pretty firm base, in India. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On Tuesday 18 Sep 2007 3:55 pm, Anish Mohammed wrote: > Interesting, inspite of slow uptake of open source in general, it is good > to see some govt intiative. I hope it is not going to be another political > gimmick. It just occurred to me that the communist dominated Kerala government might see Linux as a route to avoid "subservience" to the United States and its capitalist lackey Microsoft that is enforcing the imperialist agenda of the US. shiv
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
BTW Sriram, I dont think it would be fair to equate SSLC to CBSE. anish
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 9/18/07, Biju Chacko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is really braindead. I'd have preferred to see a curriculum that > was free of *anybody's* political agenda. The curriculum ought to be > teaching concepts that could be learned on any kind of software -- > free or otherwise. That was how it was in simpler times. We learnt data strutures and algorithms using Pascal for two years in 11th and 12th. This was the CBSE in the early-mid nineties. The whole thing is not as simple any more. Some issues at play: 1. With the trend to start 'Computer' classes earlier and earlier, I suppose it becomes very difficult to talk in terms of abstract concepts for too long. 2. There aren't too many clueful teachers around - even in upmarket urban schools - who can be relied upon to take an educated call on what software is the right tool for teaching a set of concepts. This would either (a) expose schools to the guile and charm of well fed marketeers from companies such as Microsoft, or (b) render a syllabus completely useless for those 'unfortunate' to be off corporate radars It is very similar to why boards not only prescribe a syllabus, but also put out standard text books - it's a framework to bail out teachers and salvage the situation for the poor kids. So prescribing tools to be used cannot be averted. 3. Standardizing on *a* platform makes it so much easier for training the teachers. Again, do not underestimate how clueless they are and how much tutoring they need. 4. Standardizing on tool/language versions makes for consistent grading - which is very very important in high stake exams like 12th boards I do feel putting Linux on every school computer would encourage tinkering. I really hope so. Overall, I feel I wish we lived in a world where every schoolboy/girl is an intelligent potential-kernel-hacker, taught by enlightened selfless teachers in a system where grades do not matter. Since we do not, enforcing use of free software on Indian schools in a big way is a great, practical solution ;-)
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 9/18/07, Biju Chacko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is really braindead. I'd have preferred to see a curriculum that > was free of *anybody's* political agenda. The curriculum ought to be > teaching concepts that could be learned on any kind of software -- > free or otherwise. What are you smoking, Biju? This is the Indian educational system we are talking about. Don't you know? "We are like that only." Thaths -- Bart: I want to be emancipated. Homer: Emancipated?! Don't you like being a dude? -- Homer J. Simpson Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 9/18/07, Suresh Ramasubramanian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gautam John [Tuesday, September 18, 2007 3:27 PM]: > > > > The Director of Public Instruction (DPI) has issued orders making free > > software compulsory. It says Linux Operating System should be used for >^^ > > > Till last year, schools had the freedom to conduct the examinations > ^^^ > > Whatever happened to "free as in freedom"? :) This is really braindead. I'd have preferred to see a curriculum that was free of *anybody's* political agenda. The curriculum ought to be teaching concepts that could be learned on any kind of software -- free or otherwise. -- b (who was recently described as an open source bigot)
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
Interesting, inspite of slow uptake of open source in general, it is good to see some govt intiative. I hope it is not going to be another political gimmick. anish > >
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On 18/09/2007, Gautam John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Director of Public Instruction (DPI) has issued orders making free > software compulsory. It says Linux Operating System should be used for IT > education in eighth, ninth and tenth standards. I believe it is going to be Ubuntu, though I'd have preferred Fedora myself. Mr. Achuthanandan is going to be rudely surprised when he finds out that his party's mouthpiece newspaper's website still embraces Microsoft-specific technology and doesn't work on non-IE browsers, though (www.deshabhimani.com - uses dynamic fonts which is unsupported in Firefox and others). Binand
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 03:34:23PM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Whatever happened to "free as in freedom"? :) As if there was ever a true freedom to be had with running stuff from Redmond. In due time, comrade, you'll learn to appreciate the new freedoms. In the labor^H^H^H^H^Hcube farm. -- Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
Gautam John [Tuesday, September 18, 2007 3:27 PM]: > The Director of Public Instruction (DPI) has issued orders making free > software compulsory. It says Linux Operating System should be used for ^^ > Till last year, schools had the freedom to conduct the examinations ^^^ Whatever happened to "free as in freedom"? :) srs
[silk] Free software made mandatory (In Kerala)
*Free software made mandatory: IT practicals of SSLC Exam* Sunday September 16 2007 15:01 IST *Sabloo Thomas* T'PURAM: Free software has been made mandatory for IT practicals of SSLC examination slated for March, 2008. The Director of Public Instruction (DPI) has issued orders making free software compulsory. It says Linux Operating System should be used for IT education in eighth, ninth and tenth standards. Till last year, schools had the freedom to conduct the examinations either in free software or in Microsoft platform. For the purpose, fully Linuxbased text books have been prepared for standard X and Linux-based supplementary text books have been prepared for standard VIII and standard IX. Text books for the purpose have been prepared by SCERT and Free Software Foundation of India under the guidance of [EMAIL PROTECTED] project. The DPI has also decided to initiate various programmes for popularising free software. As part of it, various programmes were arranged to observe International Software Freedom Day on Saturday. A small introductory lecture will be delivered in the school assemblies across the state on Monday, followed by a pledge. An outline of the introductory lecture and the pledge have been circulated to the schools. A digital painting competition for students of eighth standard will be conducted on the day using TUX paint, XPaint and GIMP software. The topic of the painting competition will be 'my school and surrounding.' A presentation competition using Open Office Impress will be conducted for students of ninth and tenth standard in the topic 'IT and its benefits to the common man.' Both the competitions will be of one and half hour duration. The prize winning paintings will be compiled at the State -level and uploaded on the website www.education.kerala.gov.in. http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEO20070916044016&Page=O&Headline=Free+software+made+mandatory%3A+IT+practicals+of+SSLC+Exam&Title=Thiruvananthapuram&Topic=0
