Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hold it Vince. Right now you have no idea what you are doing. You can give yourself a Good case of ARGYIA if you screw up. Don't get the spark plug, I cannot duplicate the work of another you swears by the spare plug. Did you get the NO3 test kit?? Any arc in air will generate NO3 by the barrels. First off you only need one arc and it has to be adjustable. The other electrode goes into the DW. I hope you knw what your are ding with 15,000 volts. It can kill or burn you house down. That high of voltage will arc track on plastic if there is not a sufficeint separation. I was afraid the some of you would run off in all directions. This is not a process to tinker with unless you have the test equipment to measure you results. Do you have a PWT to measure conductuivuty. Do you have someway to measure pH. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't run ahead of me, I will supply all of the data and even make the lids for the gallon jug. If you have a lathe I will send sketchs on how to do it. I have had several fires, and have evaluated about 6 different lid configurations. This is not a toy. Ole Bob
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Robert L. Berger wrote: Hi Ya'all, This is #2 answer to Vince's post. Dr. Bill Biagioli and I have been working on the HVAC method and sharing construction and test data for about 4 months tuning this process so that it is not toxic. Bill as investigated the 15,000 volt transformers and rejected them as his words were it is a whole different ball game, and has set his commercial generators for 12,000 v. So any data that I have would not necessarily be valid. I would recommend that if possible return it and get a 12,000 v transformer. Bill has gone so far as to use only the Frenchformer. I am using a Magnatec by Jefferson Electric. The only difference is that the Frenchformer has a higher reluctance than the Magnatec, and that would only affect the magnitude of the output voltage under load. Do not use clip leads with this kind of voltage as the insulation is only rated about 600 volts. I am using spark plug wire which is rated at 50,000 volts. You need to decide at what voltage you want to run at. Neon sign transformers are speced to run at approximately 65 to 75% of their name plate voltage. So if you want 10,000 volts, you must start with a 15 KV transformer. A 12KV transformer would run at about 8 KV, which I find too low for good colloid. If you run a neon sign transformer way above it's design voltage of abou 70% of it's nameplate voltage, it will fail from insulation failure, and if you run it for long periods below it it will fail from overheating. Load must be varied to maintain the proper output voltage of the transformer, or early failure will likely result. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Robert L. Berger wrote:
Load must be varied to maintain the proper output voltage of the
transformer, or
early failure will likely result.
I would like to see the source of this data!!
Check out the sites of the companies that make the transformers. That
is where I got the information from, but unfortunatly I lost all my
bookmarks to a virus. I will see if I can find them again.
While I have never designed a transformer of neon sign service, I
have designed transformers for the old tube type ham radio
transmitters, as well as pulse welding transformers, and your
statements do not compute.
Why. If a transformer is designed for a specific voltage, and the
voltage is 50 to 100% more, then the likelyhood of insulation breakdown
increases dramatically. If it is designed for 20 mA, but you are
running 30 at a lower voltage, the dissipation is 2.25 times as much,
and it will overheat. I know for a fact the latter can happen, as I
burned one up early on in only a couple of days until I started
monitoring my current and voltage and keeping them within the
recommended range.
Neon sign transformers are impedence limited as far as current is
concerned. They have to be, since a neon lamp exhibits a negative
resistance region, and you need a ballast type action. They need a high
open circuit voltage to strike, and operate at a much lower voltage once
lit. They do this with a magnetic shunt.
If you look at the transformers I am using at
http://www.transco-neon.com/tfoot.htm you will see that the unit is
rated 15KV open circuit and 30 Ma short circuit. But the power consumed
under normal operating conditions is 243 watts. That is because it is
speced to operate at about 9-10 Kv and 20 to 25 mA, which if you
multiply out and add power lost in the transformer, will add up to about
250 watts. If you call the company and request the data sheets on the
unit, they will send them to you, and should show a VI curve which
indicates an impedence limited source. I have these graphs around here
somewhere from a couple of neon sign transformer companies.
Marshall
OK, found a couple of references, from one company. Other companies say
the same essential thing. The curves on the transformer I have indicate
proper operation is at about 70% of nameplate voltage, but the following
reference says 50% for theirs. To be safe get the operating
specifications on you specific transformer:
http://www.franceformer.com/faqdetail.asp?FAQDataDis_Action=Find('FAQNumber','53')FAQDataDis_Position=FIL%3AFAQType+%3D+%27Neon+Transformers%27ORD%3AABS%3A2KEY%3A53PAR%3A
http://www.franceformer.com/faqdetail.asp?FAQDataDis_Action=Find('FAQNumber','65')FAQDataDis_Position=FIL%3AFAQType+%3D+%27Neon+Transformers%27ORD%3AABS%3A14KEY%3A65PAR%3A:
Question: 3.014 What is overloading and what affect does it have on a
transformers life?
Answer: Overloading, or the connecting of more tubing than recommended,
produces higher secondary voltages resulting in increased stress on the
transformer and sign insulation system. This stress can cause secondary
coil failure and reduced transformer life and premature failure of high
voltage sign components. Overloading can also ... creating high voltage
and current peaks in the secondary coils, damaging the insulation system
in the transformer and sign, and again, significantly reducing
transformer life.
http://www.franceformer.com/faqdetail.asp?FAQDataDis_Action=Find('FAQNumber','66')FAQDataDis_Position=FIL%3AFAQType+%3D+%27Neon+Transformers%27ORD%3AABS%3A15KEY%3A66PAR%3A:
Question: 3.015 What is underloading and what effect does it have on a
transformers life?
Answer: Underloading, or connecting less tubing than recommended, forces
the transformer to supply more tube current than normal, resulting in
increased wire loss and higher operating temperatures in the
transformer. This reduces the life of the transformer.
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Robert L. Berger wrote: I would like to see the source of this data!! While I have never designed a transformer of neon sign service, I have designed transformers for the old tube type ham radio transmitters, as well as pulse welding transformers, and your statements do not compute. Ole Bob Here is another source for the same information. Note that if you load one to about 80% of its speced short circuit current it will generate only about 50 to 75% of it's open circuit voltage, so both are saying about the same thing as far as typical loading is concerned. A 30 mA transformer should be run in the 23 to 25 mA range as shown on this site: http://www.signweb.com/installation/cont/neonrepair.html Transformer loading problems Loading refers to the size and length of tubing in a particular neon circuit operated by a given transformer. Both overloading and underloading a transformer can cause failure. Overloaded transformers provide inadequate current for the length of tubing operated. This frequently causes the GTO insulation to break down and the wiring to short-out. It can also burn out the transformer. Underloaded transformers create excessive heat throughout the system. Both the tubing and transformer will typically run hot, leading to early failure. Because transformers are designed with an 80% load factor (80% of the short circuit current rating), the optimum load currents are as follows: 20mA transformers: 15.5-16.5mA 30mA transformers: 23-25mA 60mA transformers: 46-50mA ... Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Robert L. Berger wrote: Marshall; I would like to see the source of this data!! And here is another neon sign transformer company which says the same thing: http://www.eurocom-inc.com/transformers.htm All transformers should be loaded properly and operating at 80% of their rated short circuit mA current capacity. If you use a ferro magnetic transformer that is too large for the amount of neon footage that you are lighting, the transformer will run very hot and eventually develop problems. ... Suggested operating current levels for (ferromagnetic) Transformers is 80% of short circuit current, i.e.: a 20mA Transformer should operate at ca. 16mA a 30mA Transformer should operate at ca. 24mA a 60mA Transformer should operate at ca. 48mA Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Thanks for the concern Ole Bob, The spark plug doesn't sound like it's working out, but I wasn't going to get one anyway until I at least know what it was intended for. That's why I asked about it. Just wanted more info, that's all. I'm learning rapidly about CS production and don't want to get too quickly carried away . Everything I've heard from people who have made HVAC ARC CS mentioned the danger of fires and shock, so I'm going to try real hard to avoid that part of the learning process. The two main problems I can see, (please add to these if necessary) is: 1) high resistance conections which translate into excessive heat - hence fires or damaged insulation and shorting. Distance/separation from the bare high voltage conductors and rated insulation on the rest of the conductors is the best safegaurd here. The sources for neon sign transformers all sell the high voltage cable. An ohmeter can identify any high resistance connections before they cause a problem. 2) Loading of the transformer could be greatly affected if the arc is lost and the transformer sits at full open circuit voltage for a time. Overheating in the transformer can occur and at best the transformer open circuits and quits working. Here, don't leave the unit unnattended for any length of time and adjust the arc frequently during production/evaporation of the water. Keeping the two secondary leads apart prevents shorting, fires, and overloading the transformer . I share the concern for peoples' safety first and foremost. Secondly, CS specifically and alternative health in general don't need any problems caused by ignorance and half-cocked attempts. If you think this needs to be taken off-list for this reason that would be fine with me. Vince Richter - Original Message - From: Robert L. Berger To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hold it Vince. Right now you have no idea what you are doing. You can give yourself a Good case of ARGYIA if you screw up. Don't get the spark plug, I cannot duplicate the work of another you swears by the spare plug. Did you get the NO3 test kit?? Any arc in air will generate NO3 by the barrels. First off you only need one arc and it has to be adjustable. The other electrode goes into the DW. I hope you knw what your are ding with 15,000 volts. It can kill or burn you house down. That high of voltage will arc track on plastic if there is not a sufficeint separation. I was afraid the some of you would run off in all directions. This is not a process to tinker with unless you have the test equipment to measure you results. Do you have a PWT to measure conductuivuty. Do you have someway to measure pH. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't run ahead of me, I will supply all of the data and even make the lids for the gallon jug. If you have a lathe I will send sketchs on how to do it. I have had several fires, and have evaluated about 6 different lid configurations. This is not a toy. Ole Bob
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hi Vince, I appreciate you concern about safety. We must use high voltage wire and bolt all connections using crimp on terminals where applicable. My set-up has a 3/8 brass center bolt drilled for a #14 silver wire with a allen head set screw in the hex head for retention. The back end of the bolt is slotted for screw drive adjust. If one were to adjust with power on then a GOOD grade of screw diver would be required. For those who have been following the construction; cut two pieces of the cpvc 1/2 pipe 2 long; cut one piece 1 long. On one of the 2 lengths glue on a coupling on one end and on the other a 90 deg elbow. The other 2 length one end is slotted or cross drilled at the end which will go into the dry ice chamber. This is to prevent the possibility of the dry ice from blocking the exit and creating a high pressure hazard. (bomb). On the other end of this piece glue on a 90 deg elbow. Use the 1 length to join the open ends of the two elbows. Make sure that things are lined up. The 2 pipe cap should be center drilled 5/8, you can use a spade drill if its sharp and drills an on size hole. Insert the slotted or cross drilled end into the end cap about 1/2 apply PVC cement on the out side of the end cap applying it on the pipe, and push the pipe in about 1/4 more. Glue up the chamber, and after it dries for a while run hot water through it several and let it sit over night. You do not want any glue smell in it. There will be another short length of 1/2 pipe required but will supply that data later. there is no need to glue that piece in as we might want to change it later. The reason for the offset is to stabilize the lid on the gallon jar. If anyone is desirous of making this project let me know off list so that I can make the lids. There is more time than material in them. More to come. Ole Bob -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
OK -- You caught me just in time! Keep me posted! Got my fingers crossed! Regards Robert Bartell - Original Message - From: Robert L. Berger bober...@swbell.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:02 PM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hi Robert; Don't run out and buy that spark plug yet. I am not sure that I want to use it. I made two run today and am not sastisfied yet it. I will refigure the lid as it was in the past and rerun a gallon. Ole Bob -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hi Robert; Don't run out and buy that spark plug yet. I am not sure that I want to use it. I made two run today and am not sastisfied yet it. I will refigure the lid as it was in the past and rerun a gallon. Ole Bob -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hey Ole Bob, I went to town today and bought a used Neon Sign Transformer. I ended up with a 120/15000 30ma transformer with box, high voltage leads, and all the hardware I need to suspend 2 copper steel brazing rods with alligator clips on the ends. All I need now is the silver and I'll be in business. Tomorow, I go to the jewelry store for the silver and I'll begin making my first batch. What's the spark plug used for? I planned to make the batch with two arcs, one piece of silver on each lead from the secondary of the transformer. Thanks, Vince - Original Message - From: Robert L. Berger bober...@swbell.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 7:02 PM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hi Robert; Don't run out and buy that spark plug yet. I am not sure that I want to use it. I made two run today and am not sastisfied yet it. I will refigure the lid as it was in the past and rerun a gallon. Ole Bob -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Flow meter, valves, CO2 tank? sounds like a great mixing mechanism. I hadn't planned on mixing, but it may be a good idea. Is that the purpose? Thanks, Vince - Original Message - From: Robert Bartell To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 5:40 AM Subject: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hi ole Bob, Over the week-end and today, I have acquired all the PVC pipe and fittings that you specified and purchased a brand new Actown transformer, 120 volts primary in and 12,000 volts at 30 mA out - secondary mid point grounded. I think we now have enough to proceed with construction while I go shopping for the CO2 tank, flow meter and valves. Sounds like Vince and a couple of others are looking over our shoulders as we get this unit up and operating, so we'll keep it on the list instead of going off-line if that's ok with you. Ready for Phase II. What do we do next? Regards: Robert Bartell
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hi Robert. With the PVC piping for the dry ice method you will not need the CO2 tanks, etc. I will make the jar cover so that we can do both. One other item, now this may sound strange but go to an auto parts store and get a Bosch platinum spark plug. That will be the center electrode. Do you have DMM with AC current scales? Tomorrow I will send you the dimension for cutting and gluing the plastic Dry ice holder. The change in viscosity is a VERY interesting phenomenon. Ole Bob: -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Thanks Robert, I'm reading daily but looks like I missed some of the earlier. Vince - Original Message - From: Robert Bartell To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:16 AM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hey Vince, Looks like Ole Bob's model, which I hope to duplicate, sinters off much finer particles from the anode by arcing HV through co2 gas. The particles also carry a stronger electrical charge.(Longer shelf life) He describes his unit as HVAC ARC CO2. The PVC pipe and fittings are for construction of a dry ice cannister that will feed CO2 into the top of the DW jar. The CO2 tank (same as they use for soft drinks) will replace the dry ice CO2 unit for more serious control over the CO2 with pressure valves and a flow meter. In case you missed it, here is what Ole Bob said in a previous post.
CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hi ole Bob, Over the week-end and today, I have acquired all the PVC pipe and fittings that you specified and purchased a brand new Actown transformer, 120 volts primary in and 12,000 volts at 30 mA out - secondary mid point grounded. I think we now have enough to proceed with construction while I go shopping for the CO2 tank, flow meter and valves. Sounds like Vince and a couple of others are looking over our shoulders as we get this unit up and operating, so we'll keep it on the list instead of going off-line if that's ok with you. Ready for Phase II. What do we do next? Regards: Robert Bartell
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hey Vince, Looks like Ole Bob's model, which I hope to duplicate, sinters off much finer particles from the anode by arcing HV through co2 gas. The particles also carry a stronger electrical charge.(Longer shelf life) He describes his unit as HVAC ARC CO2. The PVC pipe and fittings are for construction of a dry ice cannister that will feed CO2 into the top of the DW jar. The CO2 tank (same as they use for soft drinks) will replace the dry ice CO2 unit for more serious control over the CO2 with pressure valves and a flow meter. In case you missed it, here is what Ole Bob said in a previous post. The CS that I make with the HVAC ARC method does not settle out. I think the only one that makes it for sale to clinics is Dr. Bill Biagioli. He told me that he has gotten out of the retail business. Check the CS with a laser pointer if the T.E. can be seen in normal room lighting then it is not very good. The HVAC ARC has almost no T.E. when viewed in a dark room. The Transmission electron microscope pictures of my HVAC ARC CO2 is in the 1-2 nm and the 6-8 nm range. Ole Bob Hang in here and read the posts daily. You'll get the same instructions I get from Ole Bob and we'll all confer as we go along. Should be interesting! - Original Message - From: V. Richter To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 7:05 PM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Flow meter, valves, CO2 tank? sounds like a great mixing mechanism. I hadn't planned on mixing, but it may be a good idea. Is that the purpose? Thanks, Vince - Original Message - From: Robert Bartell To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 5:40 AM Subject: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hi ole Bob, Over the week-end and today, I have acquired all the PVC pipe and fittings that you specified and purchased a brand new Actown transformer, 120 volts primary in and 12,000 volts at 30 mA out - secondary mid point grounded. I think we now have enough to proceed with construction while I go shopping for the CO2 tank, flow meter and valves. Sounds like Vince and a couple of others are looking over our shoulders as we get this unit up and operating, so we'll keep it on the list instead of going off-line if that's ok with you. Ready for Phase II. What do we do next? Regards: Robert Bartell
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hi Bob, I understand, I think? Anyhow I'll get the spark plug on Wednesday. Tomorrow I'll be working from 5:30 AM till 9:30 PM as an election official. Things are coming together -- there's ozone in the air~! Regards, : Robert Bartell - Original Message - From: Robert L. Berger bober...@swbell.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hi Robert. With the PVC piping for the dry ice method you will not need the CO2 tanks, etc. I will make the jar cover so that we can do both. One other item, now this may sound strange but go to an auto parts store and get a Bosch platinum spark plug. That will be the center electrode. Do you have DMM with AC current scales? Tomorrow I will send you the dimension for cutting and gluing the plastic Dry ice holder. The change in viscosity is a VERY interesting phenomenon. Ole Bob: -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction
Hi again Bob, I have an old VOM and also a DMM, but I'm not sure about the current scales bit. Will have to dig out the original instruction book to find out. (It's been a while) Regards, Robert Bartell - Original Message - From: Robert L. Berger bober...@swbell.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: Re: CSHVAC Colloidal Silver Generator Construction Hi Robert. With the PVC piping for the dry ice method you will not need the CO2 tanks, etc. I will make the jar cover so that we can do both. One other item, now this may sound strange but go to an auto parts store and get a Bosch platinum spark plug. That will be the center electrode. Do you have DMM with AC current scales? Tomorrow I will send you the dimension for cutting and gluing the plastic Dry ice holder. The change in viscosity is a VERY interesting phenomenon. Ole Bob: -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
