RE: CS Home brewing problems
Sounds about right. With no deposits to speak of, Faraday is probably fairly close. Most people can perceive a metallic flavor 5 PPM ionic and up but not generally 4 PPM and under. ode At 03:12 PM 6/24/2004 +0100, you wrote: ### 200 microamps is 2 milliamps, right? No, I meant 0.2ma. I think this water is quite pure. Here were the results of another (more documented) test. 200ml of de-ionised water. 2, 99. silver electrodes - 1.6mm dia and 45mm into the water. PSU voltage at the terminals was 37.0V Initial current was 0.197ma after 10 mins 0.145ma after 20 mins 0.3ma after 30 mins 0.44ma after 40 mins 0.59ma after 50 mins 0.8ma The solution was stirred with a glass stirrer throughout. One of the electrodes turned a little black, but there was some foreign bodied floating about (probably due to wiping the electrodes with a paper towel before the start). There were no bubbles or clouds on either terminal. The finished solution does not look any different. Electrode deposits are an extreme variable. [Just guessing from eyeball observations..10% to 60% ??] Using the faraday calculator (excel spread sheet), it says about 6.91ppm, so from what you say it could be from 2.76 to 6.22 ppm. From what I have read, this sounds like an ionic solution with a very small particle size due to a low current. Is this a correct assumption? Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CS Home brewing problems
### 200 microamps is 2 milliamps, right? Some people stop at 20 milliamps..I prefer to keep the current down to 1 millamp per square inch of exposed electrode and stop at some voltage. [At the very least, a graph made that way levels off so you can read it and predict something with reaonable accuracy VS trying to get meaningful resolution off a ski jump curve] It takes a lot longer to do it that way though. [hours, not a just few minutes] One simple way to handle current and calibration is to make the electrodes movable along a ruler. Keeping the current constant by moving the electrodes apart will automatically give you a linear readout on the ruler where 'X' inches = 'Y' conductivity. Anyway, with an ammeter in line with the electrodes, I can see a current of 150 micro amps which has risen to about 200 micro amps in 10 minutes. There are no bubbles or white, grey wisps coming off the other. Is there any way of finding the PPM with the starting and ending current? (a formula) ### You can do that, in essence, making a conductivity meter out of the generator setup which has it's own weirdnesses and inaacuracies but is better than nothing. It will be entirely dependent on water temperature, electrode spacing, electrode size and voltage [or current] held constant, so ANY little change in the setup will throw it off. Electrode deposits can significantly change readings and simply moving the electrodes a little will make a reading rise or fall [spike], then stabilize. If no or insufficient stirring is being used, a reading will only apply to a localized area in the water...not all of the water. Since no two individual setups are exactly the same, there cannot be an easy formula. Change one thing, even a little, and EVERYTHING else changes with it. Nail every variable element down, plot a current rise per time period graph and compare readings with a good meter to make a chart. Then send samples to a good lab to determine if the graph and chart is somewhere in the ballpark for your setup. The graph will look like a ski jump after a while using constant voltage...now what part of this nearly vertical line is what PPM? Meters don't read PPM..nor do generators being used 'as' a meter. There is no specific direct correlation between PPM and water conductivity [which 'is' related to current draw at a set voltage] that always holds true even when using the same generator setup. You can get close ,as in, educated guess, within a given range. That means that every sample must come from it's own seperate batch run exactly the same way.. in every way.. because taking the sample will change the batch. The stronger you make it, the more particles will form faster and faster..the 'whisps' [you can't see ions and ions are what do the conducting of electricity, not particles]..and PPM/conductivity/ammeters don't register particles at all. On top of that, particles form later on, so readings change too...and those changes are volume related as well. A small batch won't change the same as a larger one. If you are very careful, you can get a good idea. If you don't take everything into consideration, you'll get a bad idea and won't know it. The saving grace, however, is that exact PPM really doesn't matter much. Your taste buds and eyeballs alone give you a pretty good idea of how much to use in an environment where no one person really knows how much to use for what and how, even if they DID have the exact PPM figures. There simply are no dosing standards that I've heard of that make any sense at all. Without exception,[so far] recommendations totally leave out critical elementary factors such as application technique, purpose, location and body weight. Enough works just fine. If it worked, it was enough. Several small doses a day are probably much better than one big one. Too much is the hardest part to accomplish. It might even be impossible [up to a point] with water being as toxic as it is along with the difficulties involved with making CS very strong AND 'not sludge'. You 'can' get into trouble using a lot of sludge for a long period of time...even then, unlikely. If it looks like crap, it probably is. If it doesn't look like crap, it's probably under 30 PPM..most likely under 15 PPM ..even 5 PPM sometimes...using constant voltage. Making nice looking stable CS at over 20 PPM is usually an 'iffy' affair. Ode Thanks, Brian. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
Using Faradays equations doesn't account for silver oxide formation, fallout and plateout. [ie waste] It will tell you how much silver got off an electrode, but doesn't say where it went. Electrode deposits are an extreme variable. [Just guessing from eyeball observations..10% to 60% ??] If you can accurately weigh them [I can't] and subtract that from the total..then you'll have something. If you can weigh them, you can probably also weigh the before and after difference in the electrodes with the deposits on them...considering oxygen content of the oxides. The remainder would be in the water..or sitting on the bottom. Ode At 06:25 PM 6/23/2004 +0100, you wrote: Is there any way of finding the PPM with the starting and ending current? (a formula) Try Herx13's spreadsheet for just this purpose: http://www.silvermedicine.org/faradaycalculator.html Yours Kay Kay Jennings Bristol England mailto:somer...@tinyworld.co.uk -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
I think 200 microamps is 0.2 milliamps (micro=millionths milli=thousandths), 2 milliamps would be 2000 microamps. Paul H - Original Message - From: Ode Coyote odecoy...@alltel.net To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:02 PM Subject: RE: CS Home brewing problems ### 200 microamps is 2 milliamps, right? Some people stop at 20 milliamps..I prefer to keep the current down to 1 millamp per square inch of exposed electrode and stop at some voltage. [At the very least, a graph made that way levels off so you can read it and predict something with reaonable accuracy VS trying to get meaningful resolution off a ski jump curve] It takes a lot longer to do it that way though. [hours, not a just few minutes] One simple way to handle current and calibration is to make the electrodes movable along a ruler. Keeping the current constant by moving the electrodes apart will automatically give you a linear readout on the ruler where 'X' inches = 'Y' conductivity. Anyway, with an ammeter in line with the electrodes, I can see a current of 150 micro amps which has risen to about 200 micro amps in 10 minutes. There are no bubbles or white, grey wisps coming off the other. Is there any way of finding the PPM with the starting and ending current? (a formula) ### You can do that, in essence, making a conductivity meter out of the generator setup which has it's own weirdnesses and inaacuracies but is better than nothing. It will be entirely dependent on water temperature, electrode spacing, electrode size and voltage [or current] held constant, so ANY little change in the setup will throw it off. Electrode deposits can significantly change readings and simply moving the electrodes a little will make a reading rise or fall [spike], then stabilize. If no or insufficient stirring is being used, a reading will only apply to a localized area in the water...not all of the water. Since no two individual setups are exactly the same, there cannot be an easy formula. Change one thing, even a little, and EVERYTHING else changes with it. Nail every variable element down, plot a current rise per time period graph and compare readings with a good meter to make a chart. Then send samples to a good lab to determine if the graph and chart is somewhere in the ballpark for your setup. The graph will look like a ski jump after a while using constant voltage...now what part of this nearly vertical line is what PPM? Meters don't read PPM..nor do generators being used 'as' a meter. There is no specific direct correlation between PPM and water conductivity [which 'is' related to current draw at a set voltage] that always holds true even when using the same generator setup. You can get close ,as in, educated guess, within a given range. That means that every sample must come from it's own seperate batch run exactly the same way.. in every way.. because taking the sample will change the batch. The stronger you make it, the more particles will form faster and faster..the 'whisps' [you can't see ions and ions are what do the conducting of electricity, not particles]..and PPM/conductivity/ammeters don't register particles at all. On top of that, particles form later on, so readings change too...and those changes are volume related as well. A small batch won't change the same as a larger one. If you are very careful, you can get a good idea. If you don't take everything into consideration, you'll get a bad idea and won't know it. The saving grace, however, is that exact PPM really doesn't matter much. Your taste buds and eyeballs alone give you a pretty good idea of how much to use in an environment where no one person really knows how much to use for what and how, even if they DID have the exact PPM figures. There simply are no dosing standards that I've heard of that make any sense at all. Without exception,[so far] recommendations totally leave out critical elementary factors such as application technique, purpose, location and body weight. Enough works just fine. If it worked, it was enough. Several small doses a day are probably much better than one big one. Too much is the hardest part to accomplish. It might even be impossible [up to a point] with water being as toxic as it is along with the difficulties involved with making CS very strong AND 'not sludge'. You 'can' get into trouble using a lot of sludge for a long period of time...even then, unlikely. If it looks like crap, it probably is. If it doesn't look like crap, it's probably under 30 PPM..most likely under 15 PPM ..even 5 PPM sometimes...using constant voltage. Making nice looking stable CS at over 20 PPM is usually an 'iffy' affair. Ode Thanks, Brian. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your
RE: CS Home brewing problems
### 200 microamps is 2 milliamps, right? No, I meant 0.2ma. I think this water is quite pure. Here were the results of another (more documented) test. 200ml of de-ionised water. 2, 99. silver electrodes - 1.6mm dia and 45mm into the water. PSU voltage at the terminals was 37.0V Initial current was 0.197ma after 10 mins 0.145ma after 20 mins 0.3ma after 30 mins 0.44ma after 40 mins 0.59ma after 50 mins 0.8ma The solution was stirred with a glass stirrer throughout. One of the electrodes turned a little black, but there was some foreign bodied floating about (probably due to wiping the electrodes with a paper towel before the start). There were no bubbles or clouds on either terminal. The finished solution does not look any different. Electrode deposits are an extreme variable. [Just guessing from eyeball observations..10% to 60% ??] Using the faraday calculator (excel spread sheet), it says about 6.91ppm, so from what you say it could be from 2.76 to 6.22 ppm. From what I have read, this sounds like an ionic solution with a very small particle size due to a low current. Is this a correct assumption? Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CS Home brewing problems
Thanks guys, I have a better setup now. I have managed to get some de-ionised water from RS. Farnell do something similar. http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/Module.jsp?BV_SessionID=2141964067.10 88006431BV_EngineID=cccdadclkkdgjjdcfngcfkmdgkldffl.0cacheID=ukie3265 459255=3265459255stockNo=2513671 I guess it's drinkable.. It's for cleaning PCBs, but it is just water. Anyway, with an ammeter in line with the electrodes, I can see a current of 150 micro amps which has risen to about 200 micro amps in 10 minutes. There are no bubbles or white, grey wisps coming off the other. Is there any way of finding the PPM with the starting and ending current? (a formula) Thanks, Brian. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
Is there any way of finding the PPM with the starting and ending current? (a formula) Try Herx13's spreadsheet for just this purpose: http://www.silvermedicine.org/faradaycalculator.html Yours Kay Kay Jennings Bristol England mailto:somer...@tinyworld.co.uk -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
Sounds like 2 problems. First the water is not pure enough, distilled or not. The LED should not come on as soon as you apply power. Second you need to be current limiting. Marshall Dave Lewis wrote: Hi, I have had a go at making the CS by distilling my own water and making a DC CS generator. The water is in an enclosed container with a hole in the top and placed on a cooker. A tube comes from the top into a cold flask, where the water then condensates. This water is used for the CS. The gen is made from a HP printer power supply (about 37V DC when I measured it) with an LED in series attaching to 2 silver wires (99.%). When it is switched on, the LED comes on immediately and is quite bright. The bubbles start after about 1 second and a grey cloud comes off the other terminal. It makes the water a dirty cloudy grey. I think there is something wrong with the setup here, as I have read it should turn out yellow. Are there any pointers? Thanks, Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CS Home brewing problems
Marv wrote: Instant high conductivity indicates that the water is not adequately distilled (assuming you have not added salt or other contaminants). As a test, try a batch using Walgreen's Distilled Water with nothing added. Best regards, :) Marv End quote: I live in the UK. Does anyone know where to buy off the shelf distilled water for drinking? It's not that common here. That's why I tried making my own ; Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
I live in the UK. Does anyone know where to buy off the shelf distilled water for drinking? It's not that common here. That's why I tried making my own ; As I expect you've found out, it's almost impossible to get distilled water. I use de-ionised water bought from a chemist shop, about £3.70 for 5 litres of pure water of medicinal quality, and this works perfectly.very low initial conductivity and a clear uncoloured end-product which doesn't turn yellow on keeping (yellow is not the colour you're aiming for!). No bubbles, no grey clouds, weak TE and slight metallic taste. You can buy proper distilled from http://www.dreamweaver.ltd.uk/ElectronicAlchemy/MainFrame.html which is where I bought my starting kit, but it's incredibly expensive in delivery costs. Or you can buy counter-top distillers, but they cost a fortune and I gather the water they produce may not be good enough for CS-making. Hope this helps Yours Kay Jennings Bristol England mailto:somer...@tinyworld.co.uk -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
Hi Dave, I use either Superdrug deionised water (for steam irons etc), which has zero TDS measured with a Hanna meter, or purified water BP from my local chemist, also zero TDS measured with a Hanna meter. You may have to ask for it as they hide it at the back where they use it to make up medicines. The BP (British Pharmacopoeia) is important, as it means the water is of high standard of purity. Other purified water may not be as pure. Deionised water is generally more pure than distilled, and takes a little longer to get going, but your printer power supply should work fine. Best wishes, Paul H - Original Message - From: Dave Lewis dave.le...@qualityelectronicdesigns.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: RE: CS Home brewing problems Marv wrote: Instant high conductivity indicates that the water is not adequately distilled (assuming you have not added salt or other contaminants). As a test, try a batch using Walgreen's Distilled Water with nothing added. Best regards, :) Marv End quote: I live in the UK. Does anyone know where to buy off the shelf distilled water for drinking? It's not that common here. That's why I tried making my own ; Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS Home brewing problems
When it is switched on, the LED comes on immediately and is quite bright. That is exactly how I use my generator to reject the distilled water. I have an EC meter but use if for nutrient solutions and seldom use it to check water. Try distilling the water again, called Double Distilled Water, which is used in labs. My generator is 52 VDC and with a trained eye, does a good job of indicating water quality. I have made this statement before and got zero comments. I suspect that most think I cannot tell water quality by this method. I have rejected many gallons of water using this method. The human eye is the worlds best and most precision measuring device. Ask Carl Zeiss. Or search for Mount Palomar Observatory. Wayne -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CS Home brewing problems
I am not sure if this is economically feasible but have you considered ordering a counter top distiller from www.wholesalewaterdistillers.com They are $99. I use it on my well water which has a hardness of 42. I use an SG6 and it does not light up initially, indicating no conductance. Garnet On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 08:29, Dave Lewis wrote: Marv wrote: Instant high conductivity indicates that the water is not adequately distilled (assuming you have not added salt or other contaminants). As a test, try a batch using Walgreen's Distilled Water with nothing added. Best regards, :) Marv End quote: I live in the UK. Does anyone know where to buy off the shelf distilled water for drinking? It's not that common here. That's why I tried making my own ; Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CS Home brewing problems
Hi Dave, you might have several problems here, first try some de-ionised water, if you get the same results try seperating your electrodes 3-4 inchs apart. The HP printer power supply is alittle high in voltage probably high in amps also ( i think those power supplies run about 2 amps) look to see what amps it is rated at. The grey clouds are normal when using such a setup. I wait untill the clouds rest on the bottom of the glass and turn it off, let it set 12 hours or more and see what color it turns to. You took the first step, theres many to follow. Sam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CS Home brewing problems
Hallo Dave, to lower the current: You could try placing the electrodes further apart. 50 or 60mm You could use a lower voltage. Like 9v from a battery. Or less. You could try to purchase distilled water BP or CP from a Chemist or from university physics or chemistry laboratory. I'll send you details of my current control CS generator on sale in UK. Tony Moody On 22 Jun 2004 at 14:29, Dave Lewis wrote: Marv wrote: Instant high conductivity indicates that the water is not adequately distilled (assuming you have not added salt or other contaminants). As a test, try a batch using Walgreen's Distilled Water with nothing added. Best regards, :) Marv End quote: I live in the UK. Does anyone know where to buy off the shelf distilled water for drinking? It's not that common here. That's why I tried making my own ; Dave. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
