Re: CSsilver toxicity
Michael Redecke wrote: Sorry ! I added an extra CS... in subject A possible therapy using silver for inner use should respect this RfD and must at the same time permit a daily intake that must be clearly over the daily food-intake-level of silver (otherwise we are talking about a hormetic or homoepathic dosage, or i can eat some mushrooms). Absorption is estimated to be only 10% (only one isolated info source says 18%). Finally an effective dosage (leading to the desired ppm s in tissue) must take in account the distribution of the drunken silver-containing liquid in a possible body-volume of 50 liters. If concentration of drunken liquid was 10 ppm/l and somebody drinks 0.1 l (100 ml) he will disolve 1 ppm in ~50 liters leading to 0.02 ppm = 20 ppb in target tissue if distribution would be equal. I believe you mean drunk here, not drunken. Drunk is the past tense of drunk. Drunken has a completely different meaning http://www.answers.com/topic/drunkenness Marshall
Re: CSsilver toxicity
Michael Redecke wrote: Hello Matthew ! concerning a 38 years old man with argyria: Matthew wrote: .The dosage was 450ml of 450ppm CS taken 3 times a day for 10 months. That concentration of 450ppm seems odd. EIS made with DW does not come close to 450ppm. the electrolysis process self-limits by going into saturation, generating precipitates or floating elemental surface crust, long before 450ppm can be reached.. You are correct, it was not CS. It could have been mild silver protein, or a silver compound, both of which are well known to cause argyria. Anything over 25 ppm of CS is very difficult to make and increasingly unstable. I am in email contact with Dr. Wadhera and the publisher. I usually do not post private emails, but i think i can post here for a better understanding of that case a part of his email to me. I was wondering myself also about this large quantity of silver and i asked him for more details. In Germany we have a bit problems to understand if someone in the new world means ounces or fluid-ounces, which is not the same. Dr Wadhera wrote to me: ... Regarding your specific question about the consumption of silver by our patient - He reported to us that he was consuming 16 ounces of liquid (prepared as described in the paper) containing approx 450 ppm (mg/L) of colloidal silver 3 times a day for 10 months. This is so called researcher took the what the patient said he was taking, that is obviously wrong, and makes the same claim without any verification whatsoever. Can we see the paper he says it was prepared by? That will likely tell us what it was if he truely followed those instructions, I am sure it was NOT CS if over 50 or 60 ppm absolute max. Marshall I am not sure if he ever actually measured the concentration of silver in the liquid he was drinking. As you have mentioned in your email and included in the discussion section of the paper, using a conc of 450 mg/L in 16 oz, 3 times/day gives you a daily dose of apprx 650 mg of silver (450 mg/1000 ml * 450 ml * 3). So over a period of 10 months, assuming he drank it every day, he consumed approx 200 gm of silver To Richard: ...Please read my Site and Blogspot in which I offer 3 FREE pages of CS Uses + 1 page of my Favorites to which Irefer often. Please let me know if I can be of help... I will take a look ! *** In my calculation i made an error: If someone would use 100 ml (0.1 l) of a 10 ppm silver colloid, he or she would have an intake of 1 ppm = ~ 1 mg silver, after resoprtion (10%) 0.1 ppm = 100 ppb would enter the body and will be diluited into around 50 liters giving us a tissue-concentration of around 2 ppb. (not 20 as i posted earlier). Michael ___ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 1GB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSsilver toxicity
Most likely, or silver citrate. Marshall bbire...@aol.com wrote: concerning a 38 years old man with argyria: Matthew wrote: .The dosage was 450ml of 450ppm CS taken 3 times a day for 10 months. That concentration of 450ppm seems odd. EIS made with DW does not come close to 450ppm. the electrolysis process self-limits by going into saturation, generating precipitates or floating elemental surface crust, long before 450ppm can be reached..Hi, Doesn't this claimed level of CS strength sound like what's posted on bottles of silver protein? Bernie
Re: CSsilver toxicity
And don't overlook the DW costs. Two hundred grams of silver dispersed as EIS to a typical 10ppm concentration would require 20,000 liters of DW, or 2000 liters of DW per month throughout the ten months. Also there's the time and effort just in the drinking of it - three liters every hour, 24 hours a day and 7 days a week, for ten months ( no vacations.) - Original Message - From: Ed Kasper To: Matthew McCann Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:00 PM Subject: RE: CSsilver toxicity gee, that's only one silver coin every other month. My wife and kids go through more than that every day... like its paper. Can't say that they eat that ... but sure can't say where it goes ed -Original Message- From: Matthew McCann [mailto:mmcc...@franciscan.edu] Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 6:53 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSsilver toxicity Hi, Michael, Two hundred grams. Hmmm. That is equivalent to about six and a half 1-oz (~31g) bullion coins ingested in less than one year. Odd. Matthew -- Scanned for virus by McAfee WebShield e500 Appliance
RE: CSsilver toxicity
It would seem to me that the actual amount of silver does not matter. Most important would be the process of producing EIS or CS. The method and materials should be suspect and examined. It would also seem logical for the man to bring in an actual sample for testing as well as his material and equipment as the fault may lie anywhere. For example it may have been very poor grade silver ... Of course all this may have transpired and I apologize as I am getting in late on this discussion. -Original Message- From: Michael Redecke [mailto:gammaparti...@yahoo.de] Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 8:33 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSsilver toxicity Hello Matthew ! concerning a 38 years old man with argyria: Matthew wrote: .The dosage was 450ml of 450ppm CS taken 3 times a day for 10 months. That concentration of 450ppm seems odd. EIS made with DW does not come close to 450ppm. the electrolysis process self-limits by going into saturation, generating precipitates or floating elemental surface crust, long before 450ppm can be reached..snipped -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSsilver toxicity
-Original Message- From: Ed Kasper [mailto:edkas...@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:20 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: RE: CSsilver toxicity It would seem to me that the actual amount of silver does not matter. Most important would be the process of producing EIS or CS. The method and materials should be suspect and examined. It would also seem logical for the man to bring in an actual sample for testing as well as his material and equipment as the fault may lie anywhere. For example it may have been very poor grade silver ... I would have to agree, many are quick to jump at being alarmed when we hear of cases of CS abuse to use this word very loosely. Being on this list now for some time and reading the responses from those very experienced and knowledgeable individuals ( u know who u are *smile ); Has given me the insight as to how we are mislead many times from sources of questionable accuracy. How accurate is the information being presented? When we don't know enough, or details are left out completely, it is easy to conjure up a horror story reflecting the misuse of this or that product. When this occurs; not to discount the possibility, it is easy to place blame outwardly. After all we all know how easy that is to do and how much better it makes us feel when we don't have to take responsibility. YES!!! It's called DENIAL LOL. I am glad to know those who are hear who can straighten out the misconception and propaganda that every so often comes along to add spice into the discussions. :-) Best regards, Ernie -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSsilver toxicity
It came from Schauss searching massive medical databases. -Original Message- From: Terry Chamberlin [mailto:tcj...@yahoo.ca] Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:36 PM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: CSsilver toxicity It has been declared that the amount of silver considered to be toxic was 3.8 grams/day. This was stated by a man named Alexander G. Schauss, Ph.D. He appeared to credit the EPA with that figure. Other folks have been searching, and discover the EPA saying it is 5 micrograms/kg/day. For me, that would be 385 mg per day, which is far, far less than I actually ingest. Considering the scientific reports of argyria caused by huge quantities, how did the EPA arrive at 5 mg/day? Does anyone know where this 3.8 gram figure came from? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver Toxicity
Interesting post from Ivan. This corresponds with my layman's understanding. Dr. Higa's EM1 probiotic mix, which you can make at home by fermentation, includes actinomyces, which are the basis for many antibiotic medicines.They are part of a complex life/death/reproduction cycle of 80 microorganisms in five families, all striving to carry on in a one-liter PET bottle on my windowsill. . . JBB I Anderson wrote: Marshall I think you will find that antibiotics are manufactured by a process akin to fermentation. Antibiotics are toxins produced by one bacteria to kill other bacteria in the ever present battle for survival advantage. Ivan -Original Message- From: Marshall Dudley [mailto:mdud...@execonn.com] Sent: Friday, 9 November 2001 9:24 a.m. To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSSilver Toxicity Terry Chamberlin wrote: I have been running into increasing 'rumors' of renal failure and liver problems from CS. Here is the content of a brochure I created (a collection of quotes and references) in response to these 'rumors'. It's a long one, but you may want to copy it to print and hand to friends and doubters. The Final Word on Silver Toxicity Quoting from Alexander G. Schauss, Ph.D. Argyria would be equivalent of 380,000 micrograms (or 3.8 grams) of silver a day. 3.8 grams of silver is 3,800,000 micrograms, he is off by 10, . However, silver is not termed an antibiotic as some have claimed because an antibiotic by definition is derived from a living organism. Is he making this up as he goes along? anti-biotic mean destroying life. That is the definition. If you look it up in the dictionary you get: Main Entry: 1an·ti·bi·ot·ic Pronunciation: an-ti-bI-'ä-tik, -tI-; an-ti-bE- Function: adjective Date: 1894 1 : tending to prevent, inhibit, or destroy life If we take his definition than almost none of the present antibiotics are antibiotics since most are manufactured in a pharmaceutical company from chemicals. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSSilver Toxicity
Marshall I think you will find that antibiotics are manufactured by a process akin to fermentation. Antibiotics are toxins produced by one bacteria to kill other bacteria in the ever present battle for survival advantage. Ivan -Original Message- From: Marshall Dudley [mailto:mdud...@execonn.com] Sent: Friday, 9 November 2001 9:24 a.m. To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSSilver Toxicity Terry Chamberlin wrote: I have been running into increasing 'rumors' of renal failure and liver problems from CS. Here is the content of a brochure I created (a collection of quotes and references) in response to these 'rumors'. It's a long one, but you may want to copy it to print and hand to friends and doubters. The Final Word on Silver Toxicity Quoting from Alexander G. Schauss, Ph.D. Argyria would be equivalent of 380,000 micrograms (or 3.8 grams) of silver a day. 3.8 grams of silver is 3,800,000 micrograms, he is off by 10, . However, silver is not termed an antibiotic as some have claimed because an antibiotic by definition is derived from a living organism. Is he making this up as he goes along? anti-biotic mean destroying life. That is the definition. If you look it up in the dictionary you get: Main Entry: 1an·ti·bi·ot·ic Pronunciation: an-ti-bI-'ä-tik, -tI-; an-ti-bE- Function: adjective Date: 1894 1 : tending to prevent, inhibit, or destroy life If we take his definition than almost none of the present antibiotics are antibiotics since most are manufactured in a pharmaceutical company from chemicals. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver Toxicity
It depends. Penicillin was certainly made that way. Sulfa drugs never were. Many of the newer drugs are similar to those made by fermentation, but have been modified so that they can only be made by chemical means. I believe that Cipro falls into this catagory, having flourine attached to the molecule. I suspect if flourine were supplied to a fermentation tank it would kill the culture. Marshall I Anderson wrote: Marshall I think you will find that antibiotics are manufactured by a process akin to fermentation. Antibiotics are toxins produced by one bacteria to kill other bacteria in the ever present battle for survival advantage. Ivan -Original Message- From: Marshall Dudley [mailto:mdud...@execonn.com] Sent: Friday, 9 November 2001 9:24 a.m. To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CSSilver Toxicity Terry Chamberlin wrote: I have been running into increasing 'rumors' of renal failure and liver problems from CS. Here is the content of a brochure I created (a collection of quotes and references) in response to these 'rumors'. It's a long one, but you may want to copy it to print and hand to friends and doubters. The Final Word on Silver Toxicity Quoting from Alexander G. Schauss, Ph.D. Argyria would be equivalent of 380,000 micrograms (or 3.8 grams) of silver a day. 3.8 grams of silver is 3,800,000 micrograms, he is off by 10, . However, silver is not termed an antibiotic as some have claimed because an antibiotic by definition is derived from a living organism. Is he making this up as he goes along? anti-biotic mean destroying life. That is the definition. If you look it up in the dictionary you get: Main Entry: 1an·ti·bi·ot·ic Pronunciation: an-ti-bI-'ä-tik, -tI-; an-ti-bE- Function: adjective Date: 1894 1 : tending to prevent, inhibit, or destroy life If we take his definition than almost none of the present antibiotics are antibiotics since most are manufactured in a pharmaceutical company from chemicals. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver Toxicity
Terry Chamberlin wrote: I have been running into increasing 'rumors' of renal failure and liver problems from CS. Here is the content of a brochure I created (a collection of quotes and references) in response to these 'rumors'. It's a long one, but you may want to copy it to print and hand to friends and doubters. The Final Word on Silver Toxicity Quoting from Alexander G. Schauss, Ph.D. Argyria would be equivalent of 380,000 micrograms (or 3.8 grams) of silver a day. 3.8 grams of silver is 3,800,000 micrograms, he is off by 10, . However, silver is not termed an antibiotic as some have claimed because an antibiotic by definition is derived from a living organism. Is he making this up as he goes along? anti-biotic mean destroying life. That is the definition. If you look it up in the dictionary you get: Main Entry: 1an·ti·bi·ot·ic Pronunciation: an-ti-bI-'ä-tik, -tI-; an-ti-bE- Function: adjective Date: 1894 1 : tending to prevent, inhibit, or destroy life If we take his definition than almost none of the present antibiotics are antibiotics since most are manufactured in a pharmaceutical company from chemicals. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver Toxicity
I recently looked up antibiotics in my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. The definition made clear that originally the term derived from antibiosis, which is in essence the war between different organisms, one hostile to another. So I think the definition below r.e. living organisms is scientifically accurate. JBB Marshall Dudley wrote: Terry Chamberlin wrote: I have been running into increasing 'rumors' of renal failure and liver problems from CS. Here is the content of a brochure I created (a collection of quotes and references) in response to these 'rumors'. It's a long one, but you may want to copy it to print and hand to friends and doubters. The Final Word on Silver Toxicity Quoting from Alexander G. Schauss, Ph.D. Argyria would be equivalent of 380,000 micrograms (or 3.8 grams) of silver a day. 3.8 grams of silver is 3,800,000 micrograms, he is off by 10, . However, silver is not termed an antibiotic as some have claimed because an antibiotic by definition is derived from a living organism. Is he making this up as he goes along? anti-biotic mean destroying life. That is the definition. If you look it up in the dictionary you get: Main Entry: 1an·ti·bi·ot·ic Pronunciation: an-ti-bI-'ä-tik, -tI-; an-ti-bE- Function: adjective Date: 1894 1 : tending to prevent, inhibit, or destroy life If we take his definition than almost none of the present antibiotics are antibiotics since most are manufactured in a pharmaceutical company from chemicals. Marshall -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver toxicity
## I have a lot of fillings that previous to using CS, develop leaks periodically. I'm thinking perhaps that the ionic silver I swish around after brushing not only sterilizes the mouth but also binds to the mercury in the tooth filling, stabilizes the mercury and hardens the filling as well as closing the leaks with something similar to silver plating. I have several watch spots which have not needed any care at all in 3 years and zero plaque. [all since experimenting with CS] The dentist has twice expressed his surprise at being so unemployed. A direct quote. What are you doing differently? You must be flossing every day and using that fluoride I gave you regularly [NOT!] Ken At 11:20 AM 7/10/00 -0400, you wrote: She has since changed her position. In that book she recommends agains CS, but I understand in later books she now supports it. Marshall Devnull wrote: I beleive Dr. Hulda Clark says that silver from fillings is bad in her book The Cure for all Diseases so I don't know. Katie Jay wrote: I am just getting ready to use colloidal silver for Lyme. My doctor also suggested I get rid of my mercury fillings. I am reading a book about mercury toxicity now and wonder if I should be concerned about this paragraph: A new study directed by the Scripps Institutes' K. Michael Pollard ...goes one step further. Using a new, silver-based alloy which is being proposed as a substitute filling material for mercury amalgam, Pollard showed that silver also has the capacity to generate a strong pathological immune-system response, and that silver, like mercury, migrates to body tissues within a very short period of time. In short, both mercury and silver have a negative impact on the immune system. In addition, their effect is intensified when both metals are present. ---The Mercury in Your Mouth, Quicksilver Associates Any thoughts? Thanks, Katie -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver toxicity
I beleive Dr. Hulda Clark says that silver from fillings is bad in her book The Cure for all Diseases so I don't know. Katie Jay wrote: I am just getting ready to use colloidal silver for Lyme. My doctor also suggested I get rid of my mercury fillings. I am reading a book about mercury toxicity now and wonder if I should be concerned about this paragraph: A new study directed by the Scripps Institutes' K. Michael Pollard ...goes one step further. Using a new, silver-based alloy which is being proposed as a substitute filling material for mercury amalgam, Pollard showed that silver also has the capacity to generate a strong pathological immune-system response, and that silver, like mercury, migrates to body tissues within a very short period of time. In short, both mercury and silver have a negative impact on the immune system. In addition, their effect is intensified when both metals are present. ---The Mercury in Your Mouth, Quicksilver Associates Any thoughts? Thanks, Katie -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver toxicity
Hi Devnull; It is not the silver that is the problem it is the mercury that is used to make the amalgam for the filling. Ole Bob -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSSilver toxicity
Hi Katie, On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:13:43 -0700, Katie Jay kj...@erols.com wrote: I am just getting ready to use colloidal silver for Lyme. My doctor also suggested I get rid of my mercury fillings. I am reading a book about mercury toxicity now and wonder if I should be concerned about this paragraph: You're doctor's right about the mercury amalgam fillings. He should have mentioned teeth with root canals, too -- have them pulled (there is infection in the capillaries of the teeth that root canals don't get rid of). A new study directed by the Scripps Institutes' K. Michael Pollard ...goes one step further. Using a new, silver-based alloy which is being proposed as a substitute filling material for mercury amalgam, Pollard showed that silver also has the capacity to generate a strong pathological immune-system response, and that silver, like mercury, migrates to body tissues within a very short period of time. In short, both mercury and silver have a negative impact on the immune system. In addition, their effect is intensified when both metals are present. The problem is that the filling is an *alloy* of silver. That means silver and something else. It's the something-else that's the problem. Elemental silver is non-toxic according to all the sources I've been able to find. Silver -- by itself -- won't even turn your skin a bluish hue (argyria). It takes a silver compound to do that. (Colloidal silver isn't made with an alloy of silver, such as sterling silver. It's made with 99.9% pure silver or better.) -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
