Re: [Simh] VAX/VMS

[Wilm Boerhout]

Ethan Dicks schreef op 16-2-2016 om 08:18:

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 1:57 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:

More precisely, V7.3 will run on *any* VAX, including the primal VAX-11/780.
This level of backwards compatibility is unique.

I'm sure 7.3 has a very broad list of what it runs on, but
(considering I own the hardware in question), does it run on the
smallest of the small?  VAX-11/725?  MicroVAX 2000?  In the case of
the 11/725 (and the 11/730), minimum memory requirements come to mind.
They are limited to 5MB (the MicroVAX 2000 can take far more memory
than that and is not a problem there)

[snip]

Plain VMS 7.3, with DECnet, will run on a 11/725 and uVAX 2000. Just set 
the MAXPROCESSCNT to 16 or 12 and AUTOGEN. DECwindows -- no way. TCP/IP 
-- ditto. Maybe you could squeeze in a Fortran compiler. VMStailor will 
do wonders if you're tight on disk space and do not need all the 
optional components.


/Wilm
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[Simh] SIMH VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi - some crucial files

[Wilm Boerhout]

Below, as promised, some crucial files that I used to bring up my 
PiCluster. YMMV.
You could meke all Pi's and VAXen in the cluster identical, just 
changing node names and network (MAC,DECnet,IP) addresses.


/Wilm

= Raspbina wheezy/jessie /etc/rc.local =

#!/bin/sh -e
# This script is executed at the end of each multiuser runlevel.

exec 2> /var/log/rc.local.log   # stderr to logfile
exec 1>&2   # stdout as well
set -x  # set verify :-)

# get current IP params
HOSTIP=`ifconfig eth0 | grep "inet addr" | gawk -- '{ print $2 }' | gawk 
-F : -- '{ print $2 }'`
HOSTNETMASK=`ifconfig eth0 | grep "inet addr" | gawk -- '{ print $4 }' | 
gawk -F : -- '{ print $2 }'`
HOSTBCASTADDR=`ifconfig eth0 | grep "inet addr" | gawk -- '{ print $3 }' 
| gawk -F : -- '{ print $2 }'`

HOSTDEFAULTGATEWAY=`route -n | grep ^0.0.0.0 | gawk -- '{ print $2 }'`

# Make tun/tap
tunctl -t tap0 -u root
ifconfig tap0 up

# Now convert eth0 to a bridge and bridge it with the eth0 interface
brctl addbr br0
brctl addif br0 eth0
brctl setfd br0 0
ifconfig eth0 0.0.0.0

# fix bridge MACaddress
ifconfig br0 hw ether 08:00:2B:02:02:02
# start bridge
ifconfig br0 $HOSTIP netmask $HOSTNETMASK broadcast $HOSTBCASTADDR up

# set the default route to the br0 interface
route add -net 0.0.0.0/0 gw $HOSTDEFAULTGATEWAY

# bridge in the tap device
brctl addif br0 tap0
ifconfig tap0 0.0.0.0

# load kernel variables from /etc/sysctl.d 
(https://wiki.debian.org/BridgeNetworkConnections)

/etc/init.d/procps restart

# mount NAS stuff
mount -t nfs ODSW48-NAS.local:/shares/Netwerk /mnt/nas

# Start a VAX, Big Brother VAXcluster master member
screen -admO -S vaxclus -t VAXcluster -h 4096 /opt/simh-master/BIN/vax 
/opt/simh-master/vaxclus.ini

sleep 2
screen -ls

exit 0

= simh raspi2.ini =
; for simh V4.0 github (simh-master.zip)
echo-
echoVAXserver 3900 512MB
echo  Big Brother
echo-
echo

; unused devices:
set lpt disable
set rl disable
set ts disable

; ka655x is built-in

att nvr /opt/simh-master/BIN/nvram.bin

set cpu 512M conhalt idle=VMS
set rom nodelay
set qba autoconfig

; DZ11 listen on port 1 for TTA0-TTA3
echo DZ11 --> TTAn:
set dz enable
set dz lines=4
att dz 1

; DUA controller
set rq0 autosize
set rq1 autosize
set rq2 autosize
att -e rq0 /vdisk/VMSV73.vdisk
att -e rq1 /vdisk/VXTOOLS.vdisk
att -e rq2 /vdisk/PAK.vdisk
set rq3 disable

; file transfer
set cr enable
set cr autoeof
att -a cr /mnt/nas/xfer.txt
set cr translation=029
sho cr

; MUA tape ctrl
set tq tk70
att -e tq /vtape/MUA0.vtape
set tq1 disable
set tq2 disable
set tq3 disable
sho tq

; Ethernet
set xq mac=08:00:2B:19:02:54
att xq tap:tap0

set cpu noautoboot

echo
echo--
echoType "b[oot] cpu" to start the VAX
echo--
echo
;boot cpu

= VAX/VMS V7.3 MODPARAMS.DAT =

STARTUP_P2  = "CD"

SCSNODE = "PIVAX2"
SCSSYSTEMID = 2*1024 + 49 ! DECnet 2.49

VAXCLUSTER  =   1
MSCP_LOAD   =   1
MSCP_SERVE_ALL  =   1
NISCS_LOAD_PEA0 =   1
INTERCONNECT= "NI"
BOOTNODE= "YES"

ALLOCLASS   =  49
TAPE_ALLOCLASS  = 249

MAXPROCESSCNT   =32 ! to keep demand on various resources low

MIN_INTSTKPAGES =16 ! for TCPIP

! Generic tuning:

MIN_CHANNELCNT  =   255
MIN_ERRORLOGBUFFERS =14
MIN_GBLSECTIONS =   520
MIN_GBLPAGES= 3

! DECwindows:

MIN_PQL_MPGFLQUOTA = 32768
MIN_PQL_MASTLM =   100
MIN_PQL_MBIOLM =   100
MIN_PQL_MDIOLM =   100
MIN_PQL_MFILLM =   100
MIN_PQL_MBYTLM =10
MIN_PQL_MPRCLM =10
MIN_PQL_MENQLM =   300
!MIN_GH_RES_CODE=  1584 (Alpha ony)

! for copying into OPA0:

MIN_MAXBUF = 16384
TTY_TYPAHDSZ   =   512
TTY_ALTYPAHD   =  8192

! for BACKUP

MIN_WSMAX   = 5
MIN_PQL_MFILLM  =   300
MIN_PQL_MWSQUOTA= 32768
MIN_PQL_MDIOLM  =   100
!
! see HELP /MESS DME
!
MIN_PIOPAGES=  2048
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Re: [Simh] VAX/VMS

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 1:57 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> More precisely, V7.3 will run on *any* VAX, including the primal VAX-11/780.
> This level of backwards compatibility is unique.

I'm sure 7.3 has a very broad list of what it runs on, but
(considering I own the hardware in question), does it run on the
smallest of the small?  VAX-11/725?  MicroVAX 2000?  In the case of
the 11/725 (and the 11/730), minimum memory requirements come to mind.
They are limited to 5MB (the MicroVAX 2000 can take far more memory
than that and is not a problem there)  The 11/725, by default, comes
with the RC25 as its disk, but you can stick a different disk
controller on the Unibus (a SCSI controller does nicely if you can
find an affordable one, but an SMD controller is easier to locate),
and I do know someone who did some sheetmetal cutting and added an
external BA11 to their 11/725 where they could put any number of
Unibus disk interfaces.  In the case of the MicroVAX 2000, it's a
busless design and comes with the equivalent of an RQDX3, so is
limited to one internal RD54 and one external RD54, though you could
give it a go to MOP boot it via Ethernet.  The MicroVAX I also has its
place on the small end, with Qbus memory and 4MB max, but at least you
can toss a Qbus SCSI controller in one and not suffer with the
limitations of its RQDX1.

So if 7.3 fits on a ~150MB disk and in 4MB or 5MB of RAM, it'll fit on
any of these except perhaps an unexpanded 11/725 (but to be fair, not
much fit on an RC25, even when it _was_ on the supported list).

I'm not decrying 7.3 at all, but having tried to shoehorn 6.2 on a
standard MicroVAX II (9MB RAM, 154MB RD54), I do wonder about the
small, hardware-constrained machines.  For my own collection, I tend
to run whatever was common in the day for that specific hardware,
anywhere from MicroVMS 4.whatever through VMS 4.7 through VMS 5.5 or
so.  Again, nothing wrong with 6.x or 7.x if you have memory and disk
to handle it, but not having some of the more expandable models, I
didn't do much with the more recent versions and the VAX (but plenty
with more recent versions and Alpha.  Talk about needing more RAM!)

-ethan
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Zane Healy schreef op 15-2-2016 om 18:23:

[snip]
It looks like a good replacement for my VAXstation 3100, but not such 
a great one for the VAXstation 4000/60.  OTOH, the reduced power, 
size, and noise make this an attractive idea.  I’ve been meaning to 
try the original for emulating a PDP-10 and PDP-11 for a couple years, 
just never have the spare time.


Any issues with LAT?  With something like this, I’d just as soon use 
my DECserver 90 TL and a VT420. :-)  I’ve never actually gotten 
VAX/VMS fully running on SIMH.  I think I tried it out as far as 
starting an install on my Mac a few years ago.


As long as you stick to a wired connection on the Pi, the non-routable 
protocols like LAT and SCS pose no threat to the solution.


If you're so inclined, you might open up the VT420 casing and see 
whether there is room to place the Raspberry inside. There sould me 
plenty of %V power points to feed the Pi. Then all you need is a serial 
connector on the Pi to operate it from the VT420.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] VAX/VMS

[Wilm Boerhout]

Zane Healy schreef op 15-2-2016 om 18:20:

[snip]


There are plenty of good VAX and VMS manuals out there, including the 
documentation set.  Check eBay and abebooks.com.

The last version of VMS that will run on a VAX is v7.3.

Zane
More precisely, V7.3 will run on *any* VAX, including the primal 
VAX-11/780. This level of backwards compatibility is unique.


The other way around, each "newer" VAX in general needs a minimum 
version of VMS to run. Sometimes special "hardware releases" were issued 
(such as V5.5-H2) to support a new VAX model or variant.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] loading file

[Gary Lee Phillips]

If you have the PAK file that comes from the hobbyist distribution, it
is in fact written in DCL format so it is executable as a .COM
procedure.

Make sure the file is set executable, then run it from the command
line by putting an @ at the beginning of the file name. If the file is
complete and uncorrupted, it issues all the license updates for you,
and removes any expired licenses at the same time.

--Gary
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Re: [Simh] installing VMS 1.5

[Zachary Kline]

Well, I don’t really know what I ought to be doing about this one quite yet. I 
did mount the tape under VMS 7.3, after figuring out that the magtape device is 
msa0, not MUA0.

It isn’t a file structured volume, however. Backup can’t seem to find any 
savesets, claiming it isn’t an ANSI tape.
Any further ideas from people are appreciated.

Thanks :)

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 6:54 AM, William Pechter  wrote:
> 
> Having installed 2.x back in the day -- IIRC you would need to get a VMS 
> machine running with DSC (disk save and compress)
> running on it and use that to restore the system.   It might be possible to 
> build bootable DSC on an RL pack
> on a different VAX (like an emulated 11/750) and then use that to restore the 
> 1.5.
> 
> Actually, I've never seen 1.5 and when I installed v2 back in '81 it came 
> with an immediate update tape to v2.2.
> 
> V1.5 probably ran heavily in compatibility mode to support the old utilities 
> from RSX. (I think flx, sye, dsc were all
> pdp11 compatibility mode back then).
> 
> 
> 
> I think VMS 2.x or 3.x would work with an 11/750 and the 11/750 would load 
> DSC from the console tu58 (or disk drive).
> 
> Anyone know if you could create standalone DSC on an 11/750 RL02?
> 
> Bill
> 
> -- 
> Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
> pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
> pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/
> 
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Re: [Simh] Tell me about console terminals and related things

[Clem Cole]

As other have said - this was a serial port that was traditionally attached
to a DECwriter II so you had a paper trail.   If you look at the comments
in the kernel printf routine in UNIX will make note of saying this should
not be used for "chit-chat" because the kernel printf took over that serial
port and nothing else could get thru when it was typing at typically 120
cps on the DECwriter.

So as people have pointed out, simh supports the "console" typically a the
place where you are typing commands to simh after you start the the
simulation.

Two other points to consider...

1.) In a large computer center in the old days (with lots of systems in the
room), the console terminals took up a lot of space and might be in
different places.   So one thing that was often done was to instead of
connecting the console serial port to a DECwriter, but into a erial mux on
another system (often the size of PDP-11/34 with a DZ or DH on it) and suck
the console messages for each system into separate files for each system.
Then the operator would sit behind VT-100 or like and look at the log and
if need be, run a program that allowed him/her to connect to the input part
of any of a particular system and type in commands as appropriate.


2.) The idea of a console serial port still lives today if you any of the
Unix or Unix-Clones (e.g. Linux).   They have a way to boot the BIOS roms
to a serial port, which has typically been connected to another computer.
Besided getting the log, another nice thing about this set up is being able
to run a debugger on the console.

Clem

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Zachary Kline  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> So as I delve into VMS and related concepts, I’ve come across mention of
> console terminals and “operator’s consoles.”
> I gather that SIMH simulates one of these when the machine starts up, but
> I’m a bit less clear on how this compares to the real hardware.
> When the VAX boots, it obviously has a prompt for boot options and such.
> Would this be displayed on, say, a VT100 somewhere?
> I gather SIMH itself doesn’t do much terminal emulation, so it might be
> worthwhile sending the console output to another emulator which could
> handle the keyboard and such.
>
> I guess this depends quite a bit on the OS and machine in question too. :)
>
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Re: [Simh] loading file

[Mark Pizzolato]

The last PAKs I got for the hobbyist program came as a nice command file which 
you merely execute with @filename which in your case would be @lice.txt.

On Feb 15, 2016 12:29 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
On 15-Feb-16 17:23, Bill Cunningham wrote:

- Original Message -
From: Timothe Litt
To:  
simh@trailing-edge.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] loading file

Glad you've made progress.

There is no 'y' in my name.

So post the full recipe that worked for you so that future folks can find it.

Type  to the fields that your license doesn't contain.

I post to the list as text-only.  OE may insist on HTML.  Haven't used it in 
years.  Gave up on Outlook too.
Thunderbird is a better client.  And the price is right.

In any case, it's better to post to the list so that everyone benefits.

Yeah OE sucks sometimes but I'm not buying a windows OS. Thunderbird seemed 
complicated. i am probably just not used to it. I love firefox though.

I followed your suggestions
alloc cra0:
set card_reader cra0:/029
copy cra0: lic.txt

I am have a nice text file. Now to get it into the license registry. I guess 
the whole thing will have to go in for full access. VMS telnet and ftp may not 
work through a network connection with phase iv and my linux ethernet through 
simh. Because of license problems.

I followed Wilm's advice with the simh setup. C worked but continue didn't.

Is there a way you can recommend to load the PAKs into the license database?

Bill



@sys$update:vmslicense.com is the usual approach.

Or by hand

license register  /Issuer=DEC /auth=
continuing with all the fields in the PAK

Then
license load 

And you're done.

http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/118 is a useful resource if your fingers don't 
have the memory that mine do...

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Re: [Simh] loading file

[Timothe Litt]

On 15-Feb-16 17:23, Bill Cunningham wrote:
>  
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Timothe Litt 
> *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 15, 2016 5:13 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Simh] loading file
>
> Glad you've made progress.
>
> There is no 'y' in my name.
>
> So post the full recipe that worked for you so that future folks
> can find it.
>
> Type  to the fields that your license doesn't contain.
>
> I post to the list as text-only.  OE may insist on HTML.  Haven't
> used it in years.  Gave up on Outlook too.
> Thunderbird is a better client.  And the price is right.
>
> In any case, it's better to post to the list so that everyone
> benefits.
>
> Yeah OE sucks sometimes but I'm not buying a windows OS.
> Thunderbird seemed complicated. i am probably just not used to it.
> I love firefox though.
>  
> I followed your suggestions
> alloc cra0:
> set card_reader cra0:/029
> copy cra0: lic.txt
>  
> I am have a nice text file. Now to get it into the license
> registry. I guess the whole thing will have to go in for full
> access. VMS telnet and ftp may not work through a network
> connection with phase iv and my linux ethernet through simh.
> Because of license problems.
>  
> I followed Wilm's advice with the simh setup. C worked but
> continue didn't.
>  
> Is there a way you can recommend to load the PAKs into the license
> database?
>  
> Bill
>  
>  
>
>
@sys$update:vmslicense.com is the usual approach.

Or by hand

license register  /Issuer=DEC /auth=
continuing with all the fields in the PAK

Then
license load 

And you're done.

http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/118 is a useful resource if your
fingers don't have the memory that mine do...



smime.p7s
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Re: [Simh] loading file

[Bill Cunningham]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Timothe Litt 
  To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 5:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] loading file


  Glad you've made progress.

  There is no 'y' in my name.

  So post the full recipe that worked for you so that future folks can find it.

  Type  to the fields that your license doesn't contain.

  I post to the list as text-only.  OE may insist on HTML.  Haven't used it in 
years.  Gave up on Outlook too.
  Thunderbird is a better client.  And the price is right.

  In any case, it's better to post to the list so that everyone benefits.


  Yeah OE sucks sometimes but I'm not buying a windows OS. Thunderbird seemed 
complicated. i am probably just not used to it. I love firefox though.

  I followed your suggestions
  alloc cra0:
  set card_reader cra0:/029
  copy cra0: lic.txt

  I am have a nice text file. Now to get it into the license registry. I guess 
the whole thing will have to go in for full access. VMS telnet and ftp may not 
work through a network connection with phase iv and my linux ethernet through 
simh. Because of license problems.

  I followed Wilm's advice with the simh setup. C worked but continue didn't.

  Is there a way you can recommend to load the PAKs into the license database?

  Bill

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Re: [Simh] loading file

[Timothe Litt]

Glad you've made progress.

There is no 'y' in my name.

So post the full recipe that worked for you so that future folks can
find it.

Type  to the fields that your license doesn't contain.

I post to the list as text-only.  OE may insist on HTML.  Haven't used
it in years.  Gave up on Outlook too.
Thunderbird is a better client.  And the price is right.

In any case, it's better to post to the list so that everyone benefits.

On 15-Feb-16 17:06, Bill Cunningham wrote:
> To: Timothy Litt
>  
> My OE isn't printing your emails for some reason, so I am having to
> read your  posts of the list's archive. Dunno what's up.
>  
> Thanks to all who have helped me. I have now in vms a file I saved as
> "lic.txt"
>  
> I type "type lic.txt" and it prints out in in entirety. Now if I could
> direct that output to the license database.
>  
> @sys$update:vmslicense.com asks all kinds of questions. Some of which
> are not included in my license. A bit confusing.
>  
> Thanks again!
>  
> Bill
>  
>  
>
>
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[Simh] loading file

[Bill Cunningham]

To: Timothy Litt

My OE isn't printing your emails for some reason, so I am having to read your  
posts of the list's archive. Dunno what's up.

Thanks to all who have helped me. I have now in vms a file I saved as "lic.txt"

I type "type lic.txt" and it prints out in in entirety. Now if I could direct 
that output to the license database.

@sys$update:vmslicense.com asks all kinds of questions. Some of which are not 
included in my license. A bit confusing.

Thanks again!

Bill

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Re: [Simh] Assembler programming under Unix - was VAX/VMS

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 4:30 PM, Kevin Handy  wrote:
> 
> Any more, with the optimizing compilers we have today, it doesn't make much 
> sense to use machine language for most program development.
> 1. The compilers often produce better code that the average programmer would 
> produce, and often better than a good one would produce. The optimizer 
> doesn't care about making readable code, so it can do aggressive things to 
> the code that a human wouldn't wnt to. LLVM is even working with 
> optimizations across compilation units.
> 2. Portability issues. If you write in machine language on a VAX/VMS, that is 
> all it will run on. Porting it to VAX/Unix
>  might be possible, put with the differing system interfaces, not easy.
> 3. Ease of development. Developing in a higher level language is usually 
> faster than in a machine language environment. It is also often easier for 
> others to quickly comprehend. One line in high level code, "a=b*c+d*e", 
> verses numerous lines of assembly code.
> 4. What do you do if your platform suddenly gets new opcodes. This happened 
> with the Alpha, Intel x86, and many others. Update your code, or leave it the 
> same so it can still run on older hardware?
> 
> There are some places where hand-coded machine code is useful, but its use 
> isn't as necessary as it used to be. It can be interesting to know some of 
> the details.

All those are good points.  You could even state #1 more strongly as "average 
programmers should not do assembly programming at all".  And a lot of these 
things have been true for a long time.

That said, assembly programming is interesting.  For a hobbyist it makes 
perfectly good sense to do it even if by all the reasons you stated it would be 
the wrong answer for a "real program".  For one thing, you will learn things 
about the machine that were only theoretical facts so long as all you did was 
read documentation.

Or to put it differently: if you're going to do assembly programming (for fun 
or for serious work) your first job is to understand the machine internals, in 
detail.  For serious work, you're not qualified until you've completed that 
study.  For example, if you're writing MIPS or Alpha code (at least if it's for 
performance) and you cannot explain, in chapter and verse, how the CPU 
pipeline, functional units, and result bypasses (if any) work, you're not ready 
for the job.

paul

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Re: [Simh] Fwd: Assembler programming under Unix - was VAX/VMS

[Kevin Handy]

Any more, with the optimizing compilers we have today, it doesn't make much
sense to use machine language for most program development.
1. The compilers often produce better code that the average programmer
would produce, and often better than a good one would produce. The
optimizer doesn't care about making readable code, so it can do aggressive
things to the code that a human wouldn't wnt to. LLVM is even working with
optimizations across compilation units.
2. Portability issues. If you write in machine language on a VAX/VMS, that
is all it will run on. Porting it to VAX/Unix
 might be possible, put with the differing system interfaces, not easy.
3. Ease of development. Developing in a higher level language is usually
faster than in a machine language environment. It is also often easier for
others to quickly comprehend. One line in high level code, "a=b*c+d*e",
verses numerous lines of assembly code.
4. What do you do if your platform suddenly gets new opcodes. This happened
with the Alpha, Intel x86, and many others. Update your code, or leave it
the same so it can still run on older hardware?

There are some places where hand-coded machine code is useful, but its use
isn't as necessary as it used to be. It can be interesting to know some of
the details.


On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Mark Wickens 
wrote:

>
>
>
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: [Simh] Assembler programming under Unix - was VAX/VMS
> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:46:46 +
> From: Mark Wickens  
> To: Clem Cole  
>
> On a related note,
>
> Programming in assembly language for modern Unix always seemed a bit
> haphazard to me and the assemblers a bit non-standard and poorly
> documented, but maybe I have a skewed view.
>
> Does programming the VAX under Unix fair any better in terms of assembler
> quality and documentation?
> I appreciate that assembler programming for Unix may be frowned upon given
> the C heritage.
>
> Feel free to tell me I'm wrong... about anything!
>
> Regards, Mark.
>
> On 15/02/16 17:21, Clem Cole wrote:
>
> below...
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Will Senn  wrote:
>
>> What is a good source to learn a bit about VAX/VMS and the relationship
>> of the VAX and PDP-11 architectures and programming differences?
>
>
> ​ Hmm probably this list😈​
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> I looked at the Wikipedia article. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate
>> and it is sketchy on particulars.
>>
> Which one - the VAX/VMS article?
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Also, can the Vax run v6 or v7?
>>
> ​32V is the original V7 to the 780.​
>
> Nothing there much that you will learn that you can not learn from V7 on
> the 11/70.  It does have a newer compiler.
>
> If you want to see UNIX on an 780, start with BSD 4.1
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Will
>>
>
>
> ___
> Simh mailing 
> listSimh@trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Timothe Litt]

If you expect input spooling to work, you may need something like

  set device/spooled=sys$batch cra0:

That's what tells the card reader driver to wake jobcontrol when card
appears.

I may not have the syntax exactly right - it's been a while.

The -10 is much simpler. 
  OPR> start card-reader 0

Done.

The operators guide, system mangers guide & DCL dictionary should all be
on bitsavers.


On 15-Feb-16 15:49, Timothe Litt wrote:
> Sys$system:inpsmb  Gets started by job controller.  But there has to
> be a batch queue to accept the spooled input.
>
> reply/enable=cards may help.
>
> OR,  the manual way from DCL:
>
> Alloc CRA0:
> set card_reader cra0:/029
> copy cra0: foo.dat
>
> I worked on the simh card reader a year or two ago.  At that point, it
> functioned.
>
>
>
> On 15-Feb-16 15:43, Bill Cunningham wrote:
>> There is no inpsmb. simh 3.9 doesn't accept the "continue" option.
>>  
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Timothe Litt 
>> *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 15, 2016 3:33 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file
>>
>> you have to start a queue or manually run inpsmb
>>
>>
>> On 15-Feb-16 14:53, Bill Cunningham wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> *From:* Wilm Boerhout 
>>> *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 15, 2016 3:42 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file
>>>
>>> Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is
>>> the "set cr
>>> reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).
>>>
>>> So on simh, the flow control would be:
>>>
>>>  1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
>>>  2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
>>>  3. boot your VAX
>>>  4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue
>>> "set cr reset"
>>>  5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
>>>  6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not
>>> deleted, which
>>> is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login
>>> directory,
>>> default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden
>>> by the /NAME
>>> qualifier on the job card.
>>>
>>> /Wilm
>>>
>>>
>>> OK here's what I tried. Issuing "continue" in simg doesn't
>>> work. simh> "continue" just gives an error.
>>>  
>>> ./vax
>>> lo -r ka655x.bin
>>> set cpu 64m
>>> set cpu idle=vms
>>> set rq0 ra92
>>> at rq0 vms
>>> at nvr r
>>> set cr autoeof
>>> at -a cr list "name of licnese PAKs
>>> set cr translation=029
>>> b cpu
>>> Then I use "b dua0" no problems
>>> login as system and enter password. No problems
>>> ^E
>>> simh>
>>> here I enter "set cr reset"
>>> and at simh>
>>> I enter "continue" and get an error. 
>>>  
>>> Bill
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> 
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>



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[Simh] Fwd: Assembler programming under Unix - was VAX/VMS

[Mark Wickens]

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:[Simh] Assembler programming under Unix - was VAX/VMS
Date:   Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:46:46 +
From:   Mark Wickens 
To: Clem Cole 



On a related note,

Programming in assembly language for modern Unix always seemed a bit 
haphazard to me and the assemblers a bit non-standard and poorly 
documented, but maybe I have a skewed view.


Does programming the VAX under Unix fair any better in terms of 
assembler quality and documentation?
I appreciate that assembler programming for Unix may be frowned upon 
given the C heritage.


Feel free to tell me I'm wrong... about anything!

Regards, Mark.

On 15/02/16 17:21, Clem Cole wrote:

below...

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Will Senn > wrote:


What is a good source to learn a bit about VAX/VMS and the
relationship of the VAX and PDP-11 architectures and programming
differences?


​ Hmm probably this list😈​



I looked at the Wikipedia article. I'm not sure it is entirely
accurate and it is sketchy on particulars.

Which one - the VAX/VMS article?



Also, can the Vax run v6 or v7?

​32V is the original V7 to the 780.​

Nothing there much that you will learn that you can not learn from V7 
on the 11/70.  It does have a newer compiler.


If you want to see UNIX on an 780, start with BSD 4.1



Thanks,

Will



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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Mark Pizzolato]

CONTINUE can be abbreviated which will certainly work:
   sim> C

Why not run the latest code from https://github.com/simh/simh/archive/master.zip

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cunningham
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 12:43 PM
To: Timothe Litt ; simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

There is no inpsmb. simh 3.9 doesn't accept the "continue" option.

- Original Message -
From: Timothe Litt
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

you have to start a queue or manually run inpsmb


On 15-Feb-16 14:53, Bill Cunningham wrote:


- Original Message -
From: Wilm Boerhout
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is the "set cr
reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).

So on simh, the flow control would be:

 1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
 2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
 3. boot your VAX
 4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue "set cr reset"
 5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
 6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not deleted, which
is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login directory,
default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden by the /NAME
qualifier on the job card.

/Wilm


OK here's what I tried. Issuing "continue" in simg doesn't work. simh> 
"continue" just gives an error.

./vax
lo -r ka655x.bin
set cpu 64m
set cpu idle=vms
set rq0 ra92
at rq0 vms
at nvr r
set cr autoeof
at -a cr list "name of licnese PAKs
set cr translation=029
b cpu
Then I use "b dua0" no problems
login as system and enter password. No problems
^E
simh>
here I enter "set cr reset"
and at simh>
I enter "continue" and get an error. 

Bill





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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Bill Cunningham]

There is no inpsmb. simh 3.9 doesn't accept the "continue" option.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Timothe Litt 
  To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 3:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file


  you have to start a queue or manually run inpsmb


  On 15-Feb-16 14:53, Bill Cunningham wrote:


  - Original Message - 
  From: Wilm Boerhout 
  To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 3:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file


  Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is the "set cr 
  reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).

  So on simh, the flow control would be:

   1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
   2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
   3. boot your VAX
   4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue "set cr reset"
   5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
   6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not deleted, which
  is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login directory,
  default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden by the /NAME
  qualifier on the job card.

  /Wilm


  OK here's what I tried. Issuing "continue" in simg doesn't work. simh> 
"continue" just gives an error.

  ./vax
  lo -r ka655x.bin
  set cpu 64m
  set cpu idle=vms
  set rq0 ra92
  at rq0 vms
  at nvr r
  set cr autoeof
  at -a cr list "name of licnese PAKs
  set cr translation=029
  b cpu
  Then I use "b dua0" no problems
  login as system and enter password. No problems
  ^E
  simh> 
  here I enter "set cr reset"
  and at simh>
  I enter "continue" and get an error. 

  Bill


 

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 3:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout

Very nice.  Do you have instructions or downloads for making that
11/780 case?  It looks like foam-core board and blue painter's tape
covered in printed accents (but they could be hand-drawn... hard to
tell from the photos).  Is it 1:10 scale? (metric) 1:12 scale?
(imperial)

Cheers

-ethan
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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Timothe Litt]

you have to start a queue or manually run inpsmb


On 15-Feb-16 14:53, Bill Cunningham wrote:
>  
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Wilm Boerhout 
> *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 15, 2016 3:42 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file
>
> Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is the "set cr
> reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).
>
> So on simh, the flow control would be:
>
>  1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
>  2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
>  3. boot your VAX
>  4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue "set cr
> reset"
>  5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
>  6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not deleted, which
> is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login directory,
> default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden by the
> /NAME
> qualifier on the job card.
>
> /Wilm
>
>
> OK here's what I tried. Issuing "continue" in simg doesn't work.
> simh> "continue" just gives an error.
>  
> ./vax
> lo -r ka655x.bin
> set cpu 64m
> set cpu idle=vms
> set rq0 ra92
> at rq0 vms
> at nvr r
> set cr autoeof
> at -a cr list "name of licnese PAKs
> set cr translation=029
> b cpu
> Then I use "b dua0" no problems
> login as system and enter password. No problems
> ^E
> simh>
> here I enter "set cr reset"
> and at simh>
> I enter "continue" and get an error. 
>  
> Bill
>  
>
>
>
> ___
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> Simh@trailing-edge.com
> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh



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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Wilm Boerhout]

What error? What versipn of simh?

Op ma 15 feb. 2016 om 20:53 schreef Bill Cunningham 

>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Wilm Boerhout 
> *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com
> *Sent:* Monday, February 15, 2016 3:42 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file
>
> Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is the "set cr
> reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).
>
> So on simh, the flow control would be:
>
>  1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
>  2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
>  3. boot your VAX
>  4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue "set cr reset"
>  5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
>  6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not deleted, which
> is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login directory,
> default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden by the /NAME
> qualifier on the job card.
>
> /Wilm
>
>
> OK here's what I tried. Issuing "continue" in simg doesn't work. simh>
> "continue" just gives an error.
>
> ./vax
> lo -r ka655x.bin
> set cpu 64m
> set cpu idle=vms
> set rq0 ra92
> at rq0 vms
> at nvr r
> set cr autoeof
> at -a cr list "name of licnese PAKs
> set cr translation=029
> b cpu
> Then I use "b dua0" no problems
> login as system and enter password. No problems
> ^E
> simh>
> here I enter "set cr reset"
> and at simh>
> I enter "continue" and get an error. 
>
> Bill
>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Bill Cunningham]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Wilm Boerhout 
  To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 3:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file


  Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is the "set cr 
  reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).

  So on simh, the flow control would be:

   1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
   2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
   3. boot your VAX
   4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue "set cr reset"
   5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
   6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not deleted, which
  is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login directory,
  default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden by the /NAME
  qualifier on the job card.

  /Wilm


  OK here's what I tried. Issuing "continue" in simg doesn't work. simh> 
"continue" just gives an error.

  ./vax
  lo -r ka655x.bin
  set cpu 64m
  set cpu idle=vms
  set rq0 ra92
  at rq0 vms
  at nvr r
  set cr autoeof
  at -a cr list "name of licnese PAKs
  set cr translation=029
  b cpu
  Then I use "b dua0" no problems
  login as system and enter password. No problems
  ^E
  simh> 
  here I enter "set cr reset"
  and at simh>
  I enter "continue" and get an error. 

  Bill
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

What he said :-)
Op ma 15 feb. 2016 om 20:47 schreef Thomas Merritt 

>
> > On Feb 15, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> >
> > On 2016-02-15 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26
> >>>
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
>  Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just
> blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you
> clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few
> Pi around looking for something to cluster around...
> >>> There are three parts to a successful setup:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
> >>>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)
> >>
> >> Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But
> that's not really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet
> addressing and offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11
> certainly does.  You can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.
> I've run PDP11 SimH that way with no problems.
> >
> > Actually, I have run into problems. The broadcast domain, as well as the
> Unicast have slight differences to Ethernet, which makes it sometimes fail
> in subtle ways.
> > Having a second mac address on a WiFi interface, one that is used by
> simh, though tun/tap, does not work that well with WiFi. Unfortunately.
> >
> > I've definitely had problems keeping it working under OS X at least. And
> I'm pretty sure I've read of others having the same problem.
> >
> >   Johnny
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
>
> This is a feature of 802.11.  The packet format over the air for 802.11
> has two MAC addresses in it to in theory enable bridging.  One for the
> radio and one for the sender.  Most 802.11 firmware just stuffs the radio's
> MAC address in both and ignores the MAC address in the original frame when
> sending, and when receiving the senders radio MAC address is used in the
> frame propagated to the computer by the adapter.  The result is that
> everything is sent as if from the host and not the VM and replies are
> delivered back to the host and not the VM.  This can be worked around in
> the hypervisor as VirtualBox does for IPv4 and to some degree IPv6.  But
> don't expect a SimH machines to be able to communicate over WiFi without a
> lot of work in SimH’s networking implementation.
>
> -- TJ
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Thomas Merritt]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-02-15 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26
>>> 
>>> [snip]
>>> 
 Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just blogging 
 about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you clustered 
 those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few Pi 
 around looking for something to cluster around...
>>> There are three parts to a successful setup:
>>> 
>>> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
>>>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)
>> 
>> Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's 
>> not really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing 
>> and offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  
>> You can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 
>> SimH that way with no problems.
> 
> Actually, I have run into problems. The broadcast domain, as well as the 
> Unicast have slight differences to Ethernet, which makes it sometimes fail in 
> subtle ways.
> Having a second mac address on a WiFi interface, one that is used by simh, 
> though tun/tap, does not work that well with WiFi. Unfortunately.
> 
> I've definitely had problems keeping it working under OS X at least. And I'm 
> pretty sure I've read of others having the same problem.
> 
>   Johnny
> 
> 
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This is a feature of 802.11.  The packet format over the air for 802.11 has two 
MAC addresses in it to in theory enable bridging.  One for the radio and one 
for the sender.  Most 802.11 firmware just stuffs the radio's MAC address in 
both and ignores the MAC address in the original frame when sending, and when 
receiving the senders radio MAC address is used in the frame propagated to the 
computer by the adapter.  The result is that everything is sent as if from the 
host and not the VM and replies are delivered back to the host and not the VM.  
This can be worked around in the hypervisor as VirtualBox does for IPv4 and to 
some degree IPv6.  But don't expect a SimH machines to be able to communicate 
over WiFi without a lot of work in SimH’s networking implementation.

-- TJ
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Timothe Litt]

On 15-Feb-16 14:12, Hittner, David T (IS) wrote:
> This is not a standards issue. The SIMH FAQ has a more detailed write-up of 
> wireless Ethernet.
>
> Wireless Ethernet routers are allowed to do ANYTHING they want to conserve 
> wireless bandwidth.
> Almost ALL wireless network card drivers and routers drop non-IP packets to 
> conserve bandwidth, and reject "unregistered" MAC addresses.
> Very few wireless devices will work with non-IP protocols (DECNET IV, LAT, 
> Appletalk, etc.)  unless the device has bridge mode enabled and supports 
> non-IP protocols in bridge mode.
>
> Regarding your (later) question of LAN bridges: It's the same as the LAT 
> question. The device either has to support bridge mode, or you have to fake 
> it by tunneling it over the wireless IP connection.
>
> Dave
>
>
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 1:54 PM
> To: Hittner, David T (IS)
> Cc: Zane Healy; simh@trailing-edge.com
> Subject: Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi
>
>
>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
>> wrote:
>>
>> LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
>> LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
>> hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.
> I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service as 
> Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
> specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards 
> issue, or a case of defective implementations?
>
>   paul
>
>
Yup, tunneling can work.  But you have to create the other endpoint
somewhere.  LAT is latency-sensitive.

I should have mentioned that there ARE a few wireless cards that can do
promiscuous receive (most can't) for network monitoring.  They're
horrendously expensive.  And you hit the issues Dave mentioned.

Of course, if you have the right hardware & hack OpenWRT (or the like)
for the other end, as I said, anything is *possible*.

But you have to decide if it's worth the effort.




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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Hittner, David T (IS)]

This is not a standards issue. The SIMH FAQ has a more detailed write-up of 
wireless Ethernet.

Wireless Ethernet routers are allowed to do ANYTHING they want to conserve 
wireless bandwidth.
Almost ALL wireless network card drivers and routers drop non-IP packets to 
conserve bandwidth, and reject "unregistered" MAC addresses.
Very few wireless devices will work with non-IP protocols (DECNET IV, LAT, 
Appletalk, etc.)  unless the device has bridge mode enabled and supports non-IP 
protocols in bridge mode.

Regarding your (later) question of LAN bridges: It's the same as the LAT 
question. The device either has to support bridge mode, or you have to fake it 
by tunneling it over the wireless IP connection.

Dave


From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 1:54 PM
To: Hittner, David T (IS)
Cc: Zane Healy; simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi


> On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
> wrote:
> 
> LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
> LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
> hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.

I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service as 
Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards issue, 
or a case of defective implementations?

paul


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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Timothe Litt]

LAT uses a different protocol ID.  Most of the WiFi stuff knows TCP/IP;
some do the VPN protocols.

LAT uses group multicast - which I doubt many WiFi applications use or
stress.

It's been a while, but I think the story goes roughly like this:

Routers try to partition the network based on snooping IP; DECnet, LAT,
LAD/LAST are not considered.  Because bandwidth is relatively scarce
(less so with 802.11AC, but there are more demands and interference than
ever...), the routers/access points try to partition clients so
bandwidth isn't wasted broadcasting stuff that no-one is listening to. 
But you can't know that unless you understand the protocol; multicast is
one-way at the MAC level.

They're not alone; try running eigrp, gre multipoint, nhrp or even VPNs
(ESP/AH+GRE) on WiFi.  (Not to mention private protocols like ANF10 on
Etherent.)

Typically you might get a connection from a client to a router, but put
a second client in the same WLAN and they can't talk to each-other.

Then the client drivers/hardware know about a MAC address - but add SimH
and each emulator thinks it has one.  Getting more than one thru the
filters rarely works.  So maybe with pcap you can send from the virtual
MAC address - but the return packets don't get back thru the filters.

Some wired switches have similar issues, but they do better at learning
based on MAC addresses.  Bandwidth on copper is cheaper.

I've probably forgotten or blurred a detail - it got to the point where
we accepted that 'it just doesn't work." 

Of course, with enough engineering and opening of black boxes, anything
is possible - in theory.


On 15-Feb-16 13:53, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
>> wrote:
>>
>> LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
>> LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
>> hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.
> I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service as 
> Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
> specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards 
> issue, or a case of defective implementations?
>
>   paul
>
> ___
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-02-15 20:08, Paul Koning wrote:



On Feb 15, 2016, at 2:02 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:

On 2016-02-15 19:53, Paul Koning wrote:



On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
wrote:

LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.


I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service as 
Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards issue, 
or a case of defective implementations?


Trying to recall what I might have read/understood from somewhere, the problem 
is that WiFi might look like ethernet, but there are some important 
differences. One of these is that the switch/router actually *knows* the MAC 
addresses that are connected, as in the card/controller identities. Which, 
unlike a normal ethernet, means that if you add a device with a different mac 
address to the interface, the router at the other end will not learn this, and 
will not forward packets to you the way you would expect it to work on an 
ethernet.


So you can't build a LAN bridge with a Wifi network-side interface?  Really?


No, you need to route things.

Johnny

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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 2:02 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-02-15 19:53, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
>>> LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
>>> hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.
>> 
>> I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service 
>> as Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
>> specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards 
>> issue, or a case of defective implementations?
> 
> Trying to recall what I might have read/understood from somewhere, the 
> problem is that WiFi might look like ethernet, but there are some important 
> differences. One of these is that the switch/router actually *knows* the MAC 
> addresses that are connected, as in the card/controller identities. Which, 
> unlike a normal ethernet, means that if you add a device with a different mac 
> address to the interface, the router at the other end will not learn this, 
> and will not forward packets to you the way you would expect it to work on an 
> ethernet.

So you can't build a LAN bridge with a Wifi network-side interface?  Really?

paul

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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-02-15 19:53, Paul Koning wrote:



On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
wrote:

LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.


I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service as 
Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards issue, 
or a case of defective implementations?


Trying to recall what I might have read/understood from somewhere, the 
problem is that WiFi might look like ethernet, but there are some 
important differences. One of these is that the switch/router actually 
*knows* the MAC addresses that are connected, as in the card/controller 
identities. Which, unlike a normal ethernet, means that if you add a 
device with a different mac address to the interface, the router at the 
other end will not learn this, and will not forward packets to you the 
way you would expect it to work on an ethernet.


WiFi is not, in fact, ethernet "compatible". It only appears to be if 
you don't look too closely.


Johnny

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[Simh] Interdata OS/32: hello-world in CAL32

[Don Stalkowski]

For those following the Interdata OS/32 saga, here's an example
of "HELLO WORLD" in CAL32 and how to assemble/link it.

---

"HELLO WORLD" in CAL32

The spacing in the .CAL file is important! I don't know what the exact
spacing requirements are, but this worked.

The "os32st" directory on bitsavers contains a "Program Reference"
manual that proved helpful in writing this.

*L EDIT32
TSKID = EDIT32
*ST
*13:19:38   EDIT32:PERKIN-ELMER OS/32 EDIT 03-145 R04-01
*EDIT32>GET HELLO.CAL
*EDIT32>T 1-12
*13:19:48   EDIT32:1 SVC   1,SAY
*13:19:48   EDIT32:2 SVC   3,0
*13:19:48   EDIT32:3 ALIGN ADC
*13:19:48   EDIT32:4SAY  DBX'28'
*13:19:48   EDIT32:5 DBX'00'
*13:19:48   EDIT32:6 DS2
*13:19:48   EDIT32:7 DCA(SAY1)
*13:19:48   EDIT32:8 DCA(SAY2)
*13:19:48   EDIT32:9 DAS   2
*13:19:48   EDIT32:   10SAY1 DCC'HELLO WORLD '
*13:19:48   EDIT32:   11SAY2 EQU   *-1
*13:19:48   EDIT32:   12 END
*EDIT32>END
*13:19:59   EDIT32:END OF TASK 0
*
Simulation stopped, PC: 22C9A (BAL R12,19064)
sim> as lpt cal02
LPT: creating new file
sim> c
L CAL32
TSKID = CAL32
*AS 1,HELLO.CAL
AL HELLO.OBJ,IN,126
*AS 2,HELLO.OBJ
*AS 3,PR:
*ST
*13:27:19   CAL32:CAL/32 03-338R01-01
*13:27:19   CAL32:  NO ERRORS   TABLE SPACE USED : 1K
*13:27:19   CAL32:END OF TASK 0
*L LINK
TSKID = LINK
*ST
*13:27:32   LINK:PERKIN-ELMER OS/32 LINKAGE EDITOR 03-242 R01-03
*LINK>IN HELLO.OBJ
*LINK>BU
*13:27:40   LINK:ENTER FILE DESCRIPTOR FOR IMAGE*LINK>HELLO.TSK
*13:27:46   LINK:MAP?*LINK>NO
*LINK>END
*13:27:53   LINK:END OF TASK 0
*L HELLO
TSKID = HELLO
*AS 0,CON:
*ST
*13:28:15   HELLO:HELLO WORLD
*13:28:15   HELLO:END OF TASK 0
*
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Hittner, David T (IS)  
> wrote:
> 
> LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
> LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
> hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.

I'm still baffled.  Why doesn't it?  802.11 has the same MAC layer service as 
Ethernet -- broadcast, multicast, unicast, 48 bit addresses, etc.  What 
specifically does LAT do that doesn't work on 802.11?  Is it a standards issue, 
or a case of defective implementations?

paul

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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Hittner, David T (IS)]

LAT runs fine over the (wired) Ethernet port.
LAT doesn’t run over wireless Ethernet without major help from the wireless 
hardware or unless it’s tunneled over IP.

Dave

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Zane Healy
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 12:23 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi


On Feb 15, 2016, at 7:13 AM, Wilm Boerhout 
mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Zane Healy schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:08:

On Feb 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout 
 wrote:



Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's



https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout



/Wilm

There are a couple things that I find interesting about this, and I find myself 
wondering, what real VAXen does the level of performance you’re getting with 
the various RPi models, compare to?
The simh VAX gets about 4 VUPs on the 1GHz Raspberry Pi 2 and the Pi Zero, and 
about 3 VUPs on the older original Raspberry Pi which runs at about 600MHz.

But is is 5V, 1A compared to the original VAX-11/780 at 240V 3-phase, 32A. Let 
alone the physical dimensions...

/Wilm

It looks like a good replacement for my VAXstation 3100, but not such a great 
one for the VAXstation 4000/60.  OTOH, the reduced power, size, and noise make 
this an attractive idea.  I’ve been meaning to try the original for emulating a 
PDP-10 and PDP-11 for a couple years, just never have the spare time.

Any issues with LAT?  With something like this, I’d just as soon use my 
DECserver 90 TL and a VT420. :-)  I’ve never actually gotten VAX/VMS fully 
running on SIMH.  I think I tried it out as far as starting an install on my 
Mac a few years ago.

Zane



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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Zane Healy]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 7:13 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> 
> Zane Healy schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:08:
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout  
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's
>>> 
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> /Wilm
>> There are a couple things that I find interesting about this, and I find 
>> myself wondering, what real VAXen does the level of performance you’re 
>> getting with the various RPi models, compare to?
> The simh VAX gets about 4 VUPs on the 1GHz Raspberry Pi 2 and the Pi Zero, 
> and about 3 VUPs on the older original Raspberry Pi which runs at about 
> 600MHz.
> 
> But is is 5V, 1A compared to the original VAX-11/780 at 240V 3-phase, 32A. 
> Let alone the physical dimensions...
> 
> /Wilm

It looks like a good replacement for my VAXstation 3100, but not such a great 
one for the VAXstation 4000/60.  OTOH, the reduced power, size, and noise make 
this an attractive idea.  I’ve been meaning to try the original for emulating a 
PDP-10 and PDP-11 for a couple years, just never have the spare time. 

Any issues with LAT?  With something like this, I’d just as soon use my 
DECserver 90 TL and a VT420. :-)  I’ve never actually gotten VAX/VMS fully 
running on SIMH.  I think I tried it out as far as starting an install on my 
Mac a few years ago.

Zane



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Re: [Simh] VAX/VMS

[Clem Cole]

below...

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Will Senn  wrote:

> What is a good source to learn a bit about VAX/VMS and the relationship of
> the VAX and PDP-11 architectures and programming differences?


​Hmm probably this list😈​






> I looked at the Wikipedia article. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate
> and it is sketchy on particulars.
>
Which one - the VAX/VMS article?




>
> Also, can the Vax run v6 or v7?
>
​32V is the original V7 to the 780.​

Nothing there much that you will learn that you can not learn from V7 on
the 11/70.  It does have a newer compiler.

If you want to see UNIX on an 780, start with BSD 4.1




>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
>
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Re: [Simh] VAX/VMS

[Zane Healy]

> 
> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Will Senn  wrote:
> 
> What is a good source to learn a bit about VAX/VMS and the relationship of 
> the VAX and PDP-11 architectures and programming differences? I looked at the 
> Wikipedia article. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate and it is sketchy on 
> particulars.
> 
> Also, can the Vax run v6 or v7?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Will

There are plenty of good VAX and VMS manuals out there, including the 
documentation set.  Check eBay and abebooks.com.

The last version of VMS that will run on a VAX is v7.3.

Zane


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[Simh] VAX/VMS

[Will Senn]

What is a good source to learn a bit about VAX/VMS and the relationship of the 
VAX and PDP-11 architectures and programming differences? I looked at the 
Wikipedia article. I'm not sure it is entirely accurate and it is sketchy on 
particulars.

Also, can the Vax run v6 or v7?

Thanks,

Will


Sent from my iPhone


Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Simh] installing VMS 1.5

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-02-15 15:54, William Pechter wrote:

--

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 15:14:52 +0100
From: Johnny Billquist 
To: Zachary Kline 
Cc: Simh 
Subject: Re: [Simh] Console floppy and VAX 780
Message-ID: <56c1dd5c.5040...@softjar.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

First let me point out that I have not looked at that installation
image, so I have no idea what it is.

On 2016-02-15 14:38, Zachary Kline wrote:

Hi,

I’m trying to boot
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/vms/BB-D782B-BE__VMS_V1.5_1600.zip,
mostly for interest’s sake. I presume this is an installation tape of
some sort.
I’ve tried on the VaxSserver 3900 simulator, but always seem to get a
“DevOffline,” message for Mua0:, the magnetic tape reader.
I was wondering if I might have better luck with the VAX 11/780. I
don’t actually have real hardware of any kind. The reason I was
asking about console floppies is that, as far as I know, I can’t
directly boot from tape on the 780, at least not with the SIMH
“boot,” command.
If this is something other than an installation tape, of course, the
whole process isn’t worth the trouble :)

Thanks for any help,

Well, VMS V1 have no idea about a VAX 3900, will probably not work at
all. You need "hardware" that the OS knows about, which for VMS v1 is
probably only the VAX-11/780.

Second, it is correct that the old VAXen cannot boot from tape. However,
the standard way of installing was to boot the standalone backup system
on the VAX, and then restore the VMS system from the tape. Now, if that
was true already in V1 I don't know. Also, exactly how you get the
standalone backup system running on an emulated 11/780 is also unclear
to me here. You could try booting a newer VMS, and just restore the V1
tape to a scratch disk, and then try and boot that disk.

Johnny


Zack.

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the question. Get what working?
Do you have a real 11/780? Because the simh VAX-11/780 do not use
the floppies, as it don't actually emulate the PDP-11 that is used
in the FE.

Johnny



Having installed 2.x back in the day -- IIRC you would need to get a VMS
machine running with DSC (disk save and compress)
running on it and use that to restore the system.   It might be possible
to build bootable DSC on an RL pack
on a different VAX (like an emulated 11/750) and then use that to
restore the 1.5.

Actually, I've never seen 1.5 and when I installed v2 back in '81 it
came with an immediate update tape to v2.2.

V1.5 probably ran heavily in compatibility mode to support the old
utilities from RSX. (I think flx, sye, dsc were all
pdp11 compatibility mode back then).



I think VMS 2.x or 3.x would work with an 11/750 and the 11/750 would
load DSC from the console tu58 (or disk drive).

Anyone know if you could create standalone DSC on an 11/750 RL02?


Oh wow! I didn't know that VMS used to use DSC to install. I guess it 
makes sense, thinking about it. But DSC had various issues, and was 
dropped from RSX in the mid 80s.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-02-15 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:



On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26

[snip]


Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just blogging 
about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you clustered 
those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few Pi around 
looking for something to cluster around...

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)


Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's not 
really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing and 
offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  You 
can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 SimH that 
way with no problems.


Actually, I have run into problems. The broadcast domain, as well as the 
Unicast have slight differences to Ethernet, which makes it sometimes 
fail in subtle ways.
Having a second mac address on a WiFi interface, one that is used by 
simh, though tun/tap, does not work that well with WiFi. Unfortunately.


I've definitely had problems keeping it working under OS X at least. And 
I'm pretty sure I've read of others having the same problem.


Johnny


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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 10:19 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:15:
> 
> [snip]
>>> There are three parts to a successful setup:
>>> 
>>> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
>>>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) 
>>> 
>> Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's 
>> not really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing 
>> and offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  
>> You can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 
>> SimH that way with no problems.
>> 
>>  paul
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Maybe it is my poor choice of wireless networking adapter, or a Raspbian 
> thing, but I never managed to get tun/tap networking with a bridge to work on 
> the Raspbian wlan0 device (in this case, an Edimax wireless adapter), whereas 
> on the eth0 device (the built in Raspberry adapter) it works instantly.

I'll have to give it a try.  Well, on a Beaglebone Black, that is (I don't like 
closed hardware, or hardware that tries to be open but that uses a closed chip 
at the center).

paul

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Paul Koning schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:15:

[snip]

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)

Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's not 
really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing and 
offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  You 
can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 SimH that 
way with no problems.

paul


Maybe it is my poor choice of wireless networking adapter, or a Raspbian 
thing, but I never managed to get tun/tap networking with a bridge to 
work on the Raspbian wlan0 device (in this case, an Edimax wireless 
adapter), whereas on the eth0 device (the built in Raspberry adapter) it 
works instantly.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> 
> Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just blogging 
>> about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you clustered 
>> those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few Pi around 
>> looking for something to cluster around...
> There are three parts to a successful setup:
> 
> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) 

Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's not 
really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing and 
offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  You 
can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 SimH that 
way with no problems.

paul


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[Simh] Computer History Museum

[Wilm Boerhout]

This summer, I plan to visit the Computer History Museum in Mountain 
View, CA.


The idea is mainly to drool on PDP's and VAXes of course. Do any of you 
know of some not-on-the-regular-menu stuff I could ask for (maybe in 
advance) to enhance my experience?


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] installing VMS 1.5

[Wilm Boerhout]

William Pechter schreef op 15-2-2016 om 15:54:

[snip]
Having installed 2.x back in the day -- IIRC you would need to get a 
VMS machine running with DSC (disk save and compress)
running on it and use that to restore the system.   It might be 
possible to build bootable DSC on an RL pack
on a different VAX (like an emulated 11/750) and then use that to 
restore the 1.5.



That's what I did. I used a VMS 3.0 disk I had installed previously, old 
enough to contain good old DSC to copy the V1.5 installation tape to 
disk, instead of booting from the floppies (I could not find the floppy 
images mentioned in the V1.5 installation guide)


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] installing VMS 1.5

[William Pechter]

--

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 15:14:52 +0100
From: Johnny Billquist 
To: Zachary Kline 
Cc: Simh 
Subject: Re: [Simh] Console floppy and VAX 780
Message-ID: <56c1dd5c.5040...@softjar.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

First let me point out that I have not looked at that installation
image, so I have no idea what it is.

On 2016-02-15 14:38, Zachary Kline wrote:

Hi,

I’m trying to boot 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/vms/BB-D782B-BE__VMS_V1.5_1600.zip,
 mostly for interest’s sake. I presume this is an installation tape of some 
sort.
I’ve tried on the VaxSserver 3900 simulator, but always seem to get a 
“DevOffline,” message for Mua0:, the magnetic tape reader.
I was wondering if I might have better luck with the VAX 11/780. I don’t 
actually have real hardware of any kind. The reason I was asking about console 
floppies is that, as far as I know, I can’t directly boot from tape on the 780, 
at least not with the SIMH “boot,” command.
If this is something other than an installation tape, of course, the whole 
process isn’t worth the trouble :)

Thanks for any help,

Well, VMS V1 have no idea about a VAX 3900, will probably not work at
all. You need "hardware" that the OS knows about, which for VMS v1 is
probably only the VAX-11/780.

Second, it is correct that the old VAXen cannot boot from tape. However,
the standard way of installing was to boot the standalone backup system
on the VAX, and then restore the VMS system from the tape. Now, if that
was true already in V1 I don't know. Also, exactly how you get the
standalone backup system running on an emulated 11/780 is also unclear
to me here. You could try booting a newer VMS, and just restore the V1
tape to a scratch disk, and then try and boot that disk.

Johnny


Zack.

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the question. Get what working?
Do you have a real 11/780? Because the simh VAX-11/780 do not use the floppies, 
as it don't actually emulate the PDP-11 that is used in the FE.

Johnny



Having installed 2.x back in the day -- IIRC you would need to get a VMS 
machine running with DSC (disk save and compress)
running on it and use that to restore the system.   It might be possible to 
build bootable DSC on an RL pack
on a different VAX (like an emulated 11/750) and then use that to restore the 
1.5.

Actually, I've never seen 1.5 and when I installed v2 back in '81 it came with 
an immediate update tape to v2.2.

V1.5 probably ran heavily in compatibility mode to support the old utilities 
from RSX. (I think flx, sye, dsc were all
pdp11 compatibility mode back then).



I think VMS 2.x or 3.x would work with an 11/750 and the 11/750 would load DSC 
from the console tu58 (or disk drive).

Anyone know if you could create standalone DSC on an 11/750 RL02?

Bill

--
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/



--
Digital had it then.  Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com  http://xkcd.com/705/

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 15:09:
Thanks. I look forward to seeing the .ini's and rc.local, etc. I come 
at it the other way around. I know Linux/Mac OS X/FreeBSD quite well, 
but know next to nothing about VMS (I know a bit about VAX because of 
its relationship to PDP-11, which I've been studying pretty 
relentlessly). I have a hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but I'm unclear 
if that's the same OS you are referring to?


Regards,
Will
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and as an afterthought, VMS 1.5 does not use the LMF licensing facility. 
It runs as installed from the tape. You'd like it, when you login, it is 
really RSX with a DCL shell.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] Console floppy and VAX 780

[Johnny Billquist]

First let me point out that I have not looked at that installation 
image, so I have no idea what it is.


On 2016-02-15 14:38, Zachary Kline wrote:

Hi,

I’m trying to boot 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/vms/BB-D782B-BE__VMS_V1.5_1600.zip,
 mostly for interest’s sake. I presume this is an installation tape of some 
sort.
I’ve tried on the VaxSserver 3900 simulator, but always seem to get a 
“DevOffline,” message for Mua0:, the magnetic tape reader.
I was wondering if I might have better luck with the VAX 11/780. I don’t 
actually have real hardware of any kind. The reason I was asking about console 
floppies is that, as far as I know, I can’t directly boot from tape on the 780, 
at least not with the SIMH “boot,” command.
If this is something other than an installation tape, of course, the whole 
process isn’t worth the trouble :)

Thanks for any help,


Well, VMS V1 have no idea about a VAX 3900, will probably not work at 
all. You need "hardware" that the OS knows about, which for VMS v1 is 
probably only the VAX-11/780.


Second, it is correct that the old VAXen cannot boot from tape. However, 
the standard way of installing was to boot the standalone backup system 
on the VAX, and then restore the VMS system from the tape. Now, if that 
was true already in V1 I don't know. Also, exactly how you get the 
standalone backup system running on an emulated 11/780 is also unclear 
to me here. You could try booting a newer VMS, and just restore the V1 
tape to a scratch disk, and then try and boot that disk.


Johnny


Zack.

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the question. Get what working?
Do you have a real 11/780? Because the simh VAX-11/780 do not use the floppies, 
as it don't actually emulate the PDP-11 that is used in the FE.

Johnny




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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 15:09:

[snip]
As soon as I get home again (may be in a few days), I can post the 
simh ini file(s), my /etc/rc.local which implements the tun/tap 
stuff, as well as VMS MODPARAMS.DAT. That is as far as I will go in 
documenting. Making it work and stumbling along was part of the fun. 
It is my way to teach myself Linux. VMS, I know of old.


/Wilm


Thanks. I look forward to seeing the .ini's and rc.local, etc. I come 
at it the other way around. I know Linux/Mac OS X/FreeBSD quite well, 
but know next to nothing about VMS (I know a bit about VAX because of 
its relationship to PDP-11, which I've been studying pretty 
relentlessly). I have a hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but I'm unclear 
if that's the same OS you are referring to?


It is. One of the things that separates VMS newbies from us dinosaurs is 
that we treat "Open" in OpenVMS as a silent prefix :-)


It was invented by Digital marketing at the time Posix came into being. 
OpenVMS was one of the first OS's to achieve Posix compatibility. Or 
maybe that was also just a scam by Digital marketing...


/Wilm


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Re: [Simh] Console floppy and VAX 780

[Wilm Boerhout]

Zachary Kline schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:38:

Hi,

I’m trying to boot 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/vms/BB-D782B-BE__VMS_V1.5_1600.zip,
 mostly for interest’s sake. I presume this is an installation tape of some 
sort.
I’ve tried on the VaxSserver 3900 simulator, but always seem to get a 
“DevOffline,” message for Mua0:, the magnetic tape reader.
I was wondering if I might have better luck with the VAX 11/780. I don’t 
actually have real hardware of any kind. The reason I was asking about console 
floppies is that, as far as I know, I can’t directly boot from tape on the 780, 
at least not with the SIMH “boot,” command.
If this is something other than an installation tape, of course, the whole 
process isn’t worth the trouble :)
This is indeed an installation tape. I used it to buiild my VAX-11/780 
installation on Raspberry Pi. See 
http://vxcompany.com/kennis/blog/2016/01/22/a-working-vax-11780-revisited/


The VMS version it contains will never run on a 3900, which is way newer 
than the 780.


So make sure your get the latest simh sources from github, and build 
yourself a "vax780" model. Read vax780.doc, then configure it with (for 
example) an RP07 disk and a TE16 tape unit, restore the tape (find the 
AA-D021B-TE VAX-11 Installation Guide on bitsavers) and start playing...


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Will Senn]

On 2/15/16 8:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout wrote:

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26

[snip]

Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just 
blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how 
you clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've 
got a few Pi around looking for something to cluster around...

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) and the tun/tap
   setup on the Raspbian Linux host. This is well documented in the
   github simh docs. This will leave you with access to your LAN
   from/to the Linux host, as well as a "separate" tap0 device for the
   VAX/VMS guest.
2. Build your VAX of choice. My three cluster members are a VAXserver
   3900, a MicroVAX 3900 (same "vax" build for simh) and a 16MB
   MicroVAX II ("microvax2" build). The latter because I wanted to see
   whether the MicroVAX II could be configured with TCP/IP at all. The
   build process and its options are -again- well documented in the
   simh docs.
3. Deploy your VMS OS, configure DECnet and TCP/IP and use the
   CLUSTER_CONFIG DCL command procedure to first create the cluster
   "master", and then add the satellites. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM is sort of
   self-documenting.

I used the V4.0 standard github sources to build, and VAX/VMS V7.3 to 
deploy the cluster. Some Pi's run Raspbian Wheezy, some run Jessie. It 
varies along with my mood and the phase of the moon.


As soon as I get home again (may be in a few days), I can post the 
simh ini file(s), my /etc/rc.local which implements the tun/tap stuff, 
as well as VMS MODPARAMS.DAT. That is as far as I will go in 
documenting. Making it work and stumbling along was part of the fun. 
It is my way to teach myself Linux. VMS, I know of old.


/Wilm


Thanks. I look forward to seeing the .ini's and rc.local, etc. I come at 
it the other way around. I know Linux/Mac OS X/FreeBSD quite well, but 
know next to nothing about VMS (I know a bit about VAX because of its 
relationship to PDP-11, which I've been studying pretty relentlessly). I 
have a hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but I'm unclear if that's the same 
OS you are referring to?


Regards,
Will
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26

[snip]

Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just 
blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how 
you clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've 
got a few Pi around looking for something to cluster around...

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) and the tun/tap
   setup on the Raspbian Linux host. This is well documented in the
   github simh docs. This will leave you with access to your LAN
   from/to the Linux host, as well as a "separate" tap0 device for the
   VAX/VMS guest.
2. Build your VAX of choice. My three cluster members are a VAXserver
   3900, a MicroVAX 3900 (same "vax" build for simh) and a 16MB
   MicroVAX II ("microvax2" build). The latter because I wanted to see
   whether the MicroVAX II could be configured with TCP/IP at all. The
   build process and its options are -again- well documented in the
   simh docs.
3. Deploy your VMS OS, configure DECnet and TCP/IP and use the
   CLUSTER_CONFIG DCL command procedure to first create the cluster
   "master", and then add the satellites. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM is sort of
   self-documenting.

I used the V4.0 standard github sources to build, and VAX/VMS V7.3 to 
deploy the cluster. Some Pi's run Raspbian Wheezy, some run Jessie. It 
varies along with my mood and the phase of the moon.


As soon as I get home again (may be in a few days), I can post the simh 
ini file(s), my /etc/rc.local which implements the tun/tap stuff, as 
well as VMS MODPARAMS.DAT. That is as far as I will go in documenting. 
Making it work and stumbling along was part of the fun. It is my way to 
teach myself Linux. VMS, I know of old.


/Wilm

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Re: [Simh] Console floppy and VAX 780

[Zachary Kline]

Hi,

I’m trying to boot 
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/vms/BB-D782B-BE__VMS_V1.5_1600.zip,
 mostly for interest’s sake. I presume this is an installation tape of some 
sort.
I’ve tried on the VaxSserver 3900 simulator, but always seem to get a 
“DevOffline,” message for Mua0:, the magnetic tape reader.
I was wondering if I might have better luck with the VAX 11/780. I don’t 
actually have real hardware of any kind. The reason I was asking about console 
floppies is that, as far as I know, I can’t directly boot from tape on the 780, 
at least not with the SIMH “boot,” command.
If this is something other than an installation tape, of course, the whole 
process isn’t worth the trouble :)

Thanks for any help,
Zack.
> On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the question. Get what working?
> Do you have a real 11/780? Because the simh VAX-11/780 do not use the 
> floppies, as it don't actually emulate the PDP-11 that is used in the FE.
> 
>   Johnny

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Will Senn]

On 2/15/16 2:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout wrote:

Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout

/Wilm
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Wilm,

Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just 
blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how 
you clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've 
got a few Pi around looking for something to cluster around...


Thanks,

Will
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[Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout

/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] vax simh and loading file

[Wilm Boerhout]

Exactly. The only thing that simh adds to this process is the "set cr 
reset" command to prompt the card reader (driver?).


So on simh, the flow control would be:

1. get your "card deck" in a file on the host
2. boot simh with the cr device attached to said file
3. boot your VAX
4. log in, then CTRL/E out to the simh prompt, and issue "set cr reset"
5. issue "continue" to the simh prompt to resume the VAX
6. observe that your job has run, and the file (if not deleted, which
   is the default) is now a DCL file in your default login directory,
   default name is "INPBATCH.COM". Name may be overridden by the /NAME
   qualifier on the job card.

/Wilm


Jeremy Begg schreef op 14-2-2016 om 23:42:

Hi Bill,


Your suggestion on the simh list looks just like what I need. I use simh
3.9 and the vax has a cr device. I attached a file and everything is good.
When I login to vms nothing understands job.
I've tried job
@sys$system:job and so on and can't get job or find it anywhere. The help
list doesn't list a noprint qualifier but there is /keep and /name. Where is
"job" that's what I can't seem to find out. This is from the list. >"

So this is your "card" file?

   $JOB SYSTEM /NOPRINT /KEEP /NAME=WilmTest
   $PASSWORD xxx
   $! some ASCII text
   $ show time
   $EOJ"

That should work fine, and here's what would happen on a real VAX:

1. User loads card deck into card reader and hits the start button.
2. VMS reads each card in turn and creates a temporary file somewhere
(my guess is that it would be in the login directory for the user
specified in the JOB statement on the first card).
3. VMS submits the file to the batch queue specified by the /QUEUE
qualifier on the JOB statement, or to SYS$BATCH if the /QUEUE has
not been specified.
4. The job runs and creates log file, which will be printed and/or
deleted unless other qualifiers on the JOB statement specify otherwise.

To summarise: card readers create batch jobs which run without the user
having to log in via an interactive terminal.  The JOB command itself is not
actually a valid VMS command in the usual way: it's not part of
DCLTABLES.EXE and is instead implemented (I think) by the VMS JOB_CONTROL
process.

Regards,

 Jeremy Begg

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