Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Clem Cole]

All --

First, while watching the Bo'Sox game last night, I did a quick look @ the
document, took off the binding and started to scan it.   I am about 1/2-3/4
way through the scanning process. I know there were a few errors with
miss-feeds in my HP scanner, so I'm going to look at each page before I
pass it on to everyone to make sure we have it all and it's readable.

Just to set proper expectations for the list, I have a large STEM oriented
engagement that I'm running/hosting for about 250 young people all day
tomorrow and Sunday PM, some family commitments Sunday evening, so I'm not
sure if I will complete the scanning process for a few days, as my "free
time" is being eaten up (The Science and Tech Expo is something I've been
working on for over a year, so it is my high order attention bit at the
moment).

Second, I did peek at the document during the scanning process.   As I had
correctly remembered, the appendix *does* seem to include the post C30 IMP
info -- although the front matter does not (which has pics of original IMPs
connected to an ASR33).   My guess is that the front portions of the
document was never rewritten or re-photographed.  What the folks @ BBN seem
to have done was remove outdated appendices and add/rewrite the affected
ones.

The fact that I no longer have the '76 version of the document is that at
some point during a move, I must have felt anything that was needed was
included in this version.  I have not compared to the online version in
Al's archives, to see the connect from the appendices were that were
removed. The point being, anyone on this list that wants to do a
re-engineering project probably need to look at the '76 or earlier version
since that is likely to be what DEC CSS used to create the PDP-10 interface
like we had at my time at CMU.That said, the Vaxen at UCB were attached
via a C30 (as opposed to the original Ing70 system), so that interface
would have had to be compliant with the document I have in my possession.

Third, specifically to Al - "bitsavers".  My apologies, mei culpa.  I never
claimed to get an 800 on the English part of the SAT ;-)   Between
dyslexia, being a very poor typist, and Apple's auto-magic spell
check/correct, I messed up.  I did not intend to offend and will try to use
the proper attribution in the future.

That said, please do let me know offline on how to get the bits to you -
ftp, dropbox, google or the like.  And what you want - the raw scans from
my HP (which includes OCR of the index) or after I merge the different
scans (which for some reason I have not yet figure out causes the OCR stuff
that HP inserts to be lost when you laminate the even/odd pages into a
single scan.i.e. please tell me what works best.  As I said, I will try
to get this done reasonably soon, but I have some other commitments.

Clem
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Al Kossow]

On 3/3/16 7:52 AM, Clem Cole wrote:


On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Clem Cole > wrote:

Bit Savers


it is "bitsavers", like "lifesavers" not "Bit Savers"



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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Clem Cole]

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Clem Cole  wrote:

> Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was
> '72 - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at
> home, so I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual
> published in it's Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would
> have been the one when the IP transition was taking place or at least
> planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look
> into getting it scanned and send an update to Al.
>

​I did check and I do have fairly virgin** >>printed<< copy of the 12/1983
revision of the *Specifications for the Interconnection of a Host to an
IMP.*" - aka BBN Report No 1822​"

It's a bit over 2cm thick, 2 sided, but the good news is "GBC" bound, so
taking it a part should be reasonably easy.   I'll look into scanning it to
PDF and running it through OCR, although I'm really back up with other
commitments but I will try to prioritize this after my wife's honey do
list.  FYI: It's fixed width (Xerox Daisywheel style) font, since this just
before laser printers are becoming widely available, which in my limited
OCRing experience has worked fairly well.

Clem

** Amazon would grade this copy as "very good."  Some dirt on the cover and
dust from my book shelves but the pages clean.
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Cory Smelosky]

Didn't someone claim it was possible to fit 5.x on a KS10?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 2, 2016, at 16:31, Phil Budne  wrote:
> 
> ISTR someone (Mark Crispin?) telling me the AN22 interface for the
> KS10 was NCP era.
> 
> My notes at http://www.ultimate.com/phil/dec/tops-20 say:
> v3 of TOPS-20 had ARPAnet (1/78)
> v4 had new leader support (4/80)
> 5.2 had the BBN TCP/IP JSYS interface (12/82?)
> 5.3 had the DEC TCP: device (back ported from 6.x?) 6/83
> 5.4 had TCP/IP over NI (ethernet) 9/84?
> 
> The ARPAnet didn't go to TCP until 1/1/83, so the KS10 was long dead
> to the TOPS-20 monitor group.
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Phil Budne]

ISTR someone (Mark Crispin?) telling me the AN22 interface for the
KS10 was NCP era.

My notes at http://www.ultimate.com/phil/dec/tops-20 say:
v3 of TOPS-20 had ARPAnet (1/78)
v4 had new leader support (4/80)
5.2 had the BBN TCP/IP JSYS interface (12/82?)
5.3 had the DEC TCP: device (back ported from 6.x?) 6/83
5.4 had TCP/IP over NI (ethernet) 9/84?

The ARPAnet didn't go to TCP until 1/1/83, so the KS10 was long dead
to the TOPS-20 monitor group.
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Jacob Goense]

On 2016-02-29 23:26, Robert Armstrong wrote:

  But, be aware that all the IMP software we have is from the early
70s and predates TCP.  I don’t know if there was ever any OS for the
KS10 that supported NCP networking, but if there was then it’s
possible you could get something running.


Flag day is clear, IMPS were instructed to drop NCP based on
the (long) leader fields 65-72. Going backwards things blur.

Can this early IMP code switch IP in theory?
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Larry Stewart]

As Clem notes, the 1822 report defines three types of Host to IMP interfaces, 
Local Host, Distant Host, and Very Distant Host.

The Local host uses TTL levels to signal, with per-bit handshaking.  The 
Distant Host
uses, IIRC, differential signalling aomewhat like RS422 electrically, but uses 
the per-bit handshaking.
The VDH, on the other hand, is more like the IMP to IMP protocol which is 
actually BISYNC at the wire level.
This can be done with any synchronous serial line adapter on the host (no start 
and stop bits!). So if there are any SIMH synchronous serial controllers, they 
would work for VDH.  The DU-11 maybe ?

At SU-ISL we ran VDH from an 11 to the IMP at the Stanford Medical School 
(SUMEX-AIM).

The software for VDH is messier than for LH or DH though, because there is a 
BISYNC layer for framing and a link ARQ scheme for error detection and 
retransmission of packet fragments across the (not assumed error free) VDH link.

So there were 11’s with VDH.  I don’t know if any 10’s used them, so that the 
VDH software would exist.

-Larry

> On 2016, Feb 29, at 3:48 PM, Clem Cole > 
> wrote:
> 
> Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN 
> 1822 IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?
> 
> Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was '72 
> - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at home, so 
> I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual published in it's 
> Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would have been the one when 
> the IP transition was taking place or at least planned (i.e. post Arpanet - 
> when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look into getting it scanned and 
> send an update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there was changes when BBN 
> implemented their own mini for the IMP (the C30 - which later got 
> re-microcoded to be  general purpose computer - the C70 "C Machine").
> 
>  
> 
> I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their (Honeywell) 
> IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a Jim "Tetter 
> Toy" that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB Ingres 11/70s a 
> DR-11B with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? - at one time I had 
> my hand in it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for many, many years --- 
> until CSRG finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early 1980s.   Ing70 had a 
> "very long host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that was "up the hill" at 
> LBL.Again, IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the Vaxen.   Or maybe it was 
> connected to the Ethernet via a C70 which was connected the C30 (I've 
> forgotten). But until the C30 showed up, the UCB Arpanet/Internet connection 
> was fairly shallow; unlike CMU, MIT or Stanford.
> 
> Clem
> 
> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt  > wrote:
> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net  wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
>> maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
>> KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>> 
>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever 
>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC 
>> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>> 
>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this...
>> 
> Not clear what you want to do.
> 
> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a spec 
> for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The TOPS-20 
> monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to my stuff 
> at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's worth 
> emulating.
> 
> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20 
> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
> 
> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and 
> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one of 
> them.
> 
>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the -11 
> nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get around 
> to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and terminals, you 
> get DCP.
> 
>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The 
> DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my 
> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also on 
> my list.
> 
> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards, 
> magtape, printer.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on 
> the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.
> 
> 
> ___
> 

Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Robert Armstrong]

>Yes, it was him. See also simh/H316/h316_hi.c:

  Yep, as I mentioned Charles Anthony recently (well, last Christmas) 
implemented the host interface for the DPS8.  I'm not sure what changes he made 
to the h316_hi module or whether they've found their way back into the simh 
source tree, but at least now there is an existence proof.

Bob Armstrong

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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Jacob Goense]

On 2016-02-29 22:20, SPC wrote:

Hum... not sure about this, but someone talked here some years ago
about a modification of  the SIMH Honeywell simulator to convert it in
one IMP. I assume that he had some kind of BBN IMP code.

I'm not sure if this project would be limited to tray to simulate the
original ARPANET token ring limited to the IMPs or there was some
other goals to reach. An example: modify another simulator adding to
it a simulation of one device like this one (AN22) making it to talk
with the IMP.

As I said this was a post from years ago. Perhaps was Bob Armstrong
who talked about it but I'm not sure at all.


Yes, it was him. See also simh/H316/h316_hi.c:

   The host interface is one of the BBN engineered devices unique to the
   ARPAnet IMP.  This is the famous "1822" card which connected each IMP 
to a
   host computer - a DECSYSTEM-10, an SDS Sigma 7, an IBM 360/90, a 
CDC6600,

   or any one of many other ARPAnet hosts.  The idea is to simulate this
   interface by using a TCP/UDP connection to another simh instance 
emulating

   the host machine and running the ARPAnet host software.

   Presently the details of the host interface card are not well known, 
and
   this implementation is simply a place holder.  It's enough to allow 
the IMP
   software to run, but not actually to communicate with a host.  The 
IMP simply

   believes that all the attached hosts are down at the moment.
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Mark Pizzolato]

Bob Armstrong did the work and it was merged into the master branch in the 
https://github.com/simh/simh repo.

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of SPC
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 1:21 PM
To: Clem Cole <cl...@ccc.com>
Cc: SIMH <simh@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

Hum... not sure about this, but someone talked here some years ago about a 
modification of  the SIMH Honeywell simulator to convert it in one IMP. I 
assume that he had some kind of BBN IMP code.

I'm not sure if this project would be limited to tray to simulate the original 
ARPANET token ring limited to the IMPs or there was some other goals to reach. 
An example: modify another simulator adding to it a simulation of one device 
like this one (AN22) making it to talk with the IMP.

As I said this was a post from years ago. Perhaps was Bob Armstrong who talked 
about it but I'm not sure at all.

Kind Regards.

Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
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2016-02-29 21:48 GMT+01:00 Clem Cole <cl...@ccc.com<mailto:cl...@ccc.com>>:
Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN 1822 
IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?

Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was '72 - 
I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at home, so I'm 
nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual published in it's Yellow 
Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would have been the one when the IP 
transition was taking place or at least planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP 
was being created).  If so, I'll look into getting it scanned and send an 
update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there was changes when BBN implemented their 
own mini for the IMP (the C30 - which later got re-microcoded to be  general 
purpose computer - the C70 "C Machine").



I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their (Honeywell) 
IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a Jim "Tetter Toy" 
that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB Ingres 11/70s a DR-11B 
with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? - at one time I had my hand in 
it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for many, many years --- until CSRG 
finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early 1980s.   Ing70 had a "very long 
host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that was "up the hill" at LBL.Again, 
IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the Vaxen.   Or maybe it was connected to the 
Ethernet via a C70 which was connected the C30 (I've forgotten). But until the 
C30 showed up, the UCB Arpanet/Internet connection was fairly shallow; unlike 
CMU, MIT or Stanford.

Clem

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt 
<l...@ieee.org<mailto:l...@ieee.org>> wrote:
On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net<mailto:b...@gewt.net> wrote:

Hello,

Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever supported 
in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC packs due to the 
VM being down at present)

Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this...

Not clear what you want to do.

The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a spec 
for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The TOPS-20 
monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to my stuff at 
CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's worth emulating.

The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20 
support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.

If you're trying to move files in and out:
  DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and will 
talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one of them.

  ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the -11 
nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get around to 
that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and terminals, you get 
DCP.

   Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The DMR 
should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my colleagues 
changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also on my list.

You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards, 
magtape, printer.

I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on the 
-10 listens

Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[SPC]

Hum... not sure about this, but someone talked here some years ago about a
modification of  the SIMH Honeywell simulator to convert it in one IMP. I
assume that he had some kind of BBN IMP code.

I'm not sure if this project would be limited to tray to simulate the
original ARPANET token ring limited to the IMPs or there was some other
goals to reach. An example: modify another simulator adding to it a
simulation of one device like this one (AN22) making it to talk with the
IMP.

As I said this was a post from years ago. Perhaps was Bob Armstrong who
talked about it but I'm not sure at all.

Kind Regards.

Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
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-- 
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2016-02-29 21:48 GMT+01:00 Clem Cole :

> Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN
> 1822 IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?
>
> Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was
> '72 - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at
> home, so I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual
> published in it's Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would
> have been the one when the IP transition was taking place or at least
> planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look
> into getting it scanned and send an update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there
> was changes when BBN implemented their own mini for the IMP (the C30 -
> which later got re-microcoded to be  general purpose computer - the C70 "C
> Machine").
>
>
>
> I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their
> (Honeywell) IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a
> Jim "Tetter Toy" that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB
> Ingres 11/70s a DR-11B with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? -
> at one time I had my hand in it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for
> many, many years --- until CSRG finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early
> 1980s.   Ing70 had a "very long host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that
> was "up the hill" at LBL.Again, IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the
> Vaxen.   Or maybe it was connected to the Ethernet via a C70 which was
> connected the C30 (I've forgotten). But until the C30 showed up, the UCB
> Arpanet/Internet connection was fairly shallow; unlike CMU, MIT or Stanford.
>
> Clem
>
> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
>
>> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing
>> AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that
>> isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>>
>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC
>> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>>
>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for
>> this...
>>
>> Not clear what you want to do.
>>
>> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a
>> spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The
>> TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to
>> my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's
>> worth emulating.
>>
>> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20
>> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
>>
>> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and
>> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one
>> of them.
>>
>>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the
>> -11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get
>> around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and
>> terminals, you get DCP.
>>
>>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.
>> The DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my
>> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also
>> on my list.
>>
>> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards,
>> magtape, printer.
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL
>> on the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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> 

Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Clem Cole]

Tim I'm going to guess that the AN22 implements the PDP-10 side of the BBN
1822 IMP interface. Is that a correct belief?

Bit Savers has the BBN 1822 document from 1976 (the original I think was
'72 - I had a xerox of that one).  I think I saw it about a week ago at
home, so I'm nearly 100% sure I have very clean copy of the actual
published in it's Yellow Cover from BBN, the later edition - which would
have been the one when the IP transition was taking place or at least
planned (i.e. post Arpanet - when IP was being created).  If so, I'll look
into getting it scanned and send an update to Al.   I'm pretty sure there
was changes when BBN implemented their own mini for the IMP (the C30 -
which later got re-microcoded to be  general purpose computer - the C70 "C
Machine").



I do not remember how CMU interfaced the 10's and C.mmp to their
(Honeywell) IMP.  I suspect it was either something like the AN22 or be a
Jim "Tetter Toy" that he cooked up (I never knew).   However, IIRC @ UCB
Ingres 11/70s a DR-11B with a little logic  (??Bob Kriddle hack maybe?? -
at one time I had my hand in it).  That was the UCB Arpanet interface for
many, many years --- until CSRG finally got a C30 IMP in Evans in the early
1980s.   Ing70 had a "very long host" interface from a Honeywell IMP that
was "up the hill" at LBL.Again, IIRC the C30 could do Ethernet to the
Vaxen.   Or maybe it was connected to the Ethernet via a C70 which was
connected the C30 (I've forgotten). But until the C30 showed up, the UCB
Arpanet/Internet connection was fairly shallow; unlike CMU, MIT or Stanford.

Clem

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:

> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing
> AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that
> isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>
> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC
> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>
> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for
> this...
>
> Not clear what you want to do.
>
> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a
> spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The
> TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to
> my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's
> worth emulating.
>
> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20
> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
>
> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and
> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one
> of them.
>
>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the
> -11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get
> around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and
> terminals, you get DCP.
>
>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The
> DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my
> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also
> on my list.
>
> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards,
> magtape, printer.
>
> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on
> the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.
>
>
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Phil Budne]

ISTR the AN22 IMP interface for the KS10 was only ever used in pre-TCP
Internet (aka "NCP") days (would that be TOPS-20 v3?). I doubt *THAT*
it what you're looking for (even if it's available), but the "IMP" has
been simulated in SIMH, so there would be something for it to talk to!

ISTR ITS running on KS10's used third party (ACC?) interfaces for
sending IP packets to IMPs.  When the IMP (connections?) went away,
the ITS KS10's were only accessible via CHAOSnet (the real thing,
using CH11 interfaces, not CHAOS over ethernet).

A bit of work was done at MIT for a third-party (Interlan?) Unibus
Ethernet for the KS10 ITS machines, but with the 14-byte Ethernet
header not being a multiple of four (the number of 8-bit bytes packed
into a 36-bit word), 32-bit TCP header fields were split across 36-bit
words, which drained _my_ enthusiasm for making a go at it!

Also on the NCP front, there is vestigial NCP code in ITS, but from
the era when AI/ML/DM were KA's and MC was a KL.  ISTR the MC
interface was home built part of a cabinet marked "KL-UDGE"??

p
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Timothe Litt]

On 29-Feb-16 13:05, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output for 
>> all the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not enough" 
>> and did not find its way into simh/master.
> I looked at PostScript output for a printer, which is fairly easy and makes 
> it possible to do non-ASCII characters if the particular machine needs those. 
>  In the end, I did it as an external program (small Python script) instead, 
> but in SimH would certainly not be hard.  PS has the advantage that it's easy 
> to generate and easy to see what's going on, and it can either be printed 
> directly, or converted easily to PDF.
>
>   
PDF is an ISO archival standard and these days, more accessible than
PS.  To do anything with postscript, you need to get add-on software -
usually ghostscript.  Pretty much every PC, Mac and Linux box has a PDF
reader out of the box.  Several web browsers have built-in PDF
interpreters.  PDF supports non-ASCII characters.  And PDF supports
embedding other media types.  You can (and I did) support compression
and embedded images.

Anyhow, that's what I picked.

I did the work of generating PDF with green (or blue or ..) bar paper,
tractor feed holes, background logos, form sizes, overstrike, queuing to
a spool directory, appending, checkpointing, etc.  I had an escape
sequence interpreter so anything not in the PDF character set (a
superset of ASCII) could be generated fairly easily from a SimH driver. 
I provided translations for 32 character sets, from ASCII to Greek to
Technical.

I integrated it into all the simulators - not just DEC.  It didn't
preclude .txt output.  But it became controversial for reasons not fully
understood - and I was unwilling to keep implementing non-core features
for specific host platforms. 

I had a lot of other pressures on my time.  I gave up.  I still think it
was a nice piece of work, but clearly the community didn't.

Anyhow, the point is that it's feasible to build a class driver layer &
FWIW, my strong opinion is that for LPD bridges and any output formats,
that's the way to go.  Of course, given my experience, you might want to
collect other opinions.





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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Timothe Litt  wrote:
> 
> ...
> I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output for all 
> the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not enough" and 
> did not find its way into simh/master.

I looked at PostScript output for a printer, which is fairly easy and makes it 
possible to do non-ASCII characters if the particular machine needs those.  In 
the end, I did it as an external program (small Python script) instead, but in 
SimH would certainly not be hard.  PS has the advantage that it's easy to 
generate and easy to see what's going on, and it can either be printed 
directly, or converted easily to PDF.

paul


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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Timothe Litt]

On 29-Feb-16 12:43, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> [inline]
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 29, 2016, at 09:33, Timothe Litt  > wrote:
>
>> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only
>>> seeing AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love
>>> documentation that isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>>>
>>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
>>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my
>>> SRI-NIC packs due to the VM being down at present)
>>>
>>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful
>>> for this...
>>>
>> Not clear what you want to do.
>
> Sorry - this is KS10 FPGA-related, too early in the morning ;)
>
>>
>> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked
>> down a spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at
>> present.  The TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One
>> day I'll get access to my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec. 
>> It's on my list to see if it's worth emulating.
>
> That right there is immensely useful. KMC stuff already needs
> implemented for DECnet.
>
I implemented the KDP (Mark contributed most of the DUP), but the KMC
emulation is specific to the COMM-IOP (DDCMP) microcode.  It doesn't
execute the microcode - it's a higher-level implementation.  The DUP
talks DDCMP in a TCP connection, and only understands DDCMP - not the
other (bit stuffing) protocols.

>>
>> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor
>> TOPS-20 support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.
>
> I've now forgotten who wrote it...but I've tried it out!
>
>>
>> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20),
>> and will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR
>> thru) one of them.
>
> Ah right - I forgot TOPS-20 was Phase II only...ARPA stuff would prove
> useful there, then.
>
You can work your way from Phase II to Phase III - e.g. the T10 phase
III will talk to T20, and any phase IV will talk to Phase III.
It's ugly, but works.
>>
>>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build
>> the -11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning
>> to get around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the
>> peripherals and terminals, you get DCP.
>
> Hmmm!
>
>>
>>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP
>> emulator.  The DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug
>> in 7.04 where my colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update
>> the DMR driver.  Also on my list.
>
> Did the patches make it in to the "7.05" patches or was it forgotten
> then as well?
>
There is no 7.05 release.  I started a Github repo for that, but
populating it hasn't reached the top of my endless list.
Sigh.
>>
>> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines),
>> cards, magtape, printer.
>
> Magtape emulation and an LP20<--->lpd bridge...time to research if
> lwIP implements that!
>
LPTSPL will write to magtapes. 

I created a printer class driver layer for simh when I did PDF output
for all the emulators, but that went into a black hole of "more is not
enough" and did not find its way into simh/master.

A bridge to lpd should be done that way, and not as an LP20-specific hack.



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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Cory Smelosky]

[inline]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 09:33, Timothe Litt  wrote:
> 
>> On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing AN10 
>> maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation that isn't 
>> KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>> 
>> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever 
>> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my SRI-NIC 
>> packs due to the VM being down at present)
>> 
>> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for this...
> Not clear what you want to do.

Sorry - this is KS10 FPGA-related, too early in the morning ;)

> 
> The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a spec 
> for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The TOPS-20 
> monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access to my stuff 
> at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if it's worth 
> emulating.

That right there is immensely useful. KMC stuff already needs implemented for 
DECnet.

> 
> The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor TOPS-20 
> support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.

I've now forgotten who wrote it...but I've tried it out!

> 
> If you're trying to move files in and out:
>   DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20), and 
> will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR thru) one of 
> them.

Ah right - I forgot TOPS-20 was Phase II only...ARPA stuff would prove useful 
there, then.

> 
>   ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the -11 
> nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get around 
> to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and terminals, you 
> get DCP.

Hmmm!

> 
>Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator.  The 
> DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where my 
> colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver.  Also on 
> my list.

Did the patches make it in to the "7.05" patches or was it forgotten then as 
well?

> 
> You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines), cards, 
> magtape, printer.

Magtape emulation and an LP20<--->lpd bridge...time to research if lwIP 
implements that!

> 
> I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL on 
> the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.

I think that was a Johnny E. Project...a bridge exists in Linux user land.

> 
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Re: [Simh] KS10 IMP documentation

[Timothe Litt]

On 29-Feb-16 12:34, b...@gewt.net wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Can anyone point me at IMP documentation for the KS10? I'm only seeing
> AN10 maintenance printsets up on Bitsavers...I'd love documentation
> that isn't KLH10's KS10-ITS implementation!
>
> Alternatively, were any of the experimental Ethernet interfaces ever
> supported in TOPS-10/20 on the KS10? (I don't have access to my
> SRI-NIC packs due to the VM being down at present)
>
> Alternatively too...the userland ANF-10 bridge could prove useful for
> this...
>
Not clear what you want to do.

The KS does have an ARPA interface, the AN22.  I have not tracked down a
spec for it.  It is KMC-11 based, not simulated by SimH at present.  The
TOPS-20 monitor sources for 4.1 are a resource.  One day I'll get access
to my stuff at CHM and will look for a spec.  It's on my list to see if
it's worth emulating.

The DEUNA is simulated in SimH.  Neither the released TOPS-10 nor
TOPS-20 support it.  There is some TCP code floating around that does.

If you're trying to move files in and out:
  DECnet does work (phase II on TOPS-20, Phase III or IV on TOPS-20),
and will talk to VAX/RSX.  You can move files by stopping on or PMR
thru) one of them.

  ANF-10 on the KS does work, KS-KS.  It should be possible to build the
-11 nodes on the KS & boot them on a SimH -11.  I've been meaning to get
around to that, but haven't.  With ANF, besides the peripherals and
terminals, you get DCP.

   Networking on the KS is supported on both OSs by the KDP emulator. 
The DMR should work, though I think there's a monitor bug in 7.04 where
my colleagues changed AC definitions and didn't update the DMR driver. 
Also on my list.

You can also move files in and out with Kermit (serial lines),
cards, magtape, printer.

I don't know what you mean by 'anf-10 userland bridge'.  Of course, FAL
on the -10 listens to both DECnet and ANF.



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