Re: [SLUG] apt question - backports and dist-upgrade

[Jeff Waugh]

> One of my debian boxes si running stable with a fairly messy collection of
> backports. I am now thinking of changing top unstable thus elinating the
> need for many of the backports. Yet after, when I do a dist-upgrade many
> of the backports aren't listed as being upgraded. I want the official
> versions that are in unstable rather than the versions I have now. Could
> this be due to package numbering of the backports? And if so (or even if
> not) can I just removing packages in question and then re-install them? Or
> am I missing something else?

This is possibly because they're the same version as unstable (when you do
backports, you're meant to do tricky things with the Debian point version)
so you just have to: apt-get install /unstable and you should be
right.

- Jeff

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[SLUG] apt question - backports and dist-upgrade

[Alex Sutcliffe]

Hi,

One of my debian boxes si running stable with a fairly messy collection 
of backports. I am now thinking of changing top unstable thus elinating 
the need for many of the backports. Yet after, when I do a dist-upgrade 
many of the backports aren't listed as being upgraded. I want the 
official versions that are in unstable rather than the versions I have 
now. Could this be due to package numbering of the backports? And if so 
(or even if not) can I just removing packages in question and then 
re-install them? Or am I missing something else?

Thanks in advance

Alex

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RE: [SLUG] Knoppix 3.3 CD

[Rowling, Jill]

The freebie comment refers to "I don't know if the person who created the CD
actually checked to see if all the CD was written". No reflection on license
or software quality or anything else.

Yes, there was the option of a boot prompt and no doubt I could load all the
modules at that stage. The distro gives you the option to just load anything
that it thinks of or completely customising everything from the modules
upwards.
The machine's usual boot (Debian) is fine as all modules have been specified
correctly; I was just interested that this particular machine was not as
easy to auto-configure for Knoppix compared to (say) Mum's old PC.

BTW with the previous version of Knoppix, Mum's machine was able to be
transformed from being slow on that other OS to a very fast Knoppix system.
And when she wanted to use the other OS again, it was simply a matter of
reboot and eject the CD. That's what I particularly like about Knoppix --
doesn't scare the users too much.

Cheers,

Jill.


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Re: [SLUG] Knoppix 3.3 CD

[Alan L Tyree]

On Tue, 2003-12-23 at 09:29, Rowling, Jill wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Out of curiosity I booted my home PC with a new Knoppix 3.3 CD ... but no
> luck this time.
> It died with a kernel panic as it doesn't know about the SCSI system I
> think, Adaptec 29160 controller iirc.
> This is the first time I've ever had a Knoppix fail on me: usually they are
> the best distro to see if the hardware works with Linux.
> Mind you the CD was a freebie so I don't even know if it as a proper ISO on
> it... but it went through most of the motions of loading various drivers. It
> would probably work if I manually specified all the hardware.
> 
> Anyone else tried this distro on SCSI X86 hardware?
No, but my Knoppix 3.2 failed to pick up the mouse (!!) on an old Compaq
laptop.

Cheers,
Alan
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jill.
> 
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Re: [SLUG] Knoppix 3.3 CD

[Kevin Saenz]

Hi Jill,

> Out of curiosity I booted my home PC with a new Knoppix 3.3 CD ... but
> no luck this time.
> It died with a kernel panic as it doesn't know about the SCSI system I
> think, Adaptec 29160 controller iirc.
> This is the first time I've ever had a Knoppix fail on me: usually
> they are the best distro to see if the hardware works with Linux.
> 
do you have a lilo boot prompt? or a grub boot prompt?
It sounds like the adeptec module was not loaded in the initrd image.
see if you can force the card loading at the boot. Do you have a
recovery disk? see if that loads your scsi controller modules.

> Mind you the CD was a freebie so I don't even know if it as a proper
> ISO on it... but it went through most of the motions of loading
> various drivers. It would probably work if I manually specified all
> the hardware.
> 
I don't see what the diff is between freebie cds and bought from the
distributer the contents are usually the same except for some extra cds
or licenses they have.


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[SLUG] Knoppix 3.3 CD

[Rowling, Jill]

Title: Knoppix 3.3 CD





Hi all,


Out of curiosity I booted my home PC with a new Knoppix 3.3 CD ... but no luck this time.
It died with a kernel panic as it doesn't know about the SCSI system I think, Adaptec 29160 controller iirc.
This is the first time I've ever had a Knoppix fail on me: usually they are the best distro to see if the hardware works with Linux.

Mind you the CD was a freebie so I don't even know if it as a proper ISO on it... but it went through most of the motions of loading various drivers. It would probably work if I manually specified all the hardware.

Anyone else tried this distro on SCSI X86 hardware?


Regards,


Jill.


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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Brad Kowalczyk]

Gottfried Szing wrote:

this was my idea and the comparison of both sites is very 
interessting. when you take the numbers and take from both sides the 
top5, the picture is completely different.

freshmeat   sourceforge FM+SF
C 5799C 12377C18176
Perl 2852C++ 12251C++14891
C++ 2640Java 10670Java13269
Java 2599PHP 8073Perl10280
PHP 2207Perl 5159PHP8011
Using your figures I think the FM+SF column should have PHP @ 10280 and 
Perl @ 8011, ;-)

cheers,
Brad
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Gottfried Szing]

hi

Which lang' is used most in open source Linux application projects, is
it C or C++?
I'm not sure why it matters, it's probably best to find a project you're
interested in, and go from there, but this might help:
http://freshmeat.net/browse/160/?topic_id=160

sourceforge might be another place to check.
http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=160

this was my idea and the comparison of both sites is very interessting. 
when you take the numbers and take from both sides the top5, the picture 
is completely different.

freshmeat   sourceforge FM+SF
C   5799C   12377   C   18176
Perl2852C++ 12251   C++ 14891
C++ 2640Java10670   Java13269
Java2599PHP 8073Perl10280
PHP 2207Perl5159PHP 8011
ok, the set of the languages is the same. but the distribution is 
differs. note: this should encourage someone to pick a particular 
language! here are some additional stats:
 FMSF
  languages listet   5343
  projects total (based on lang cat)  20538 64399
  prjects total   31215 73370
  reg'ed site-users  236908758281

does anyone have links to other software repositories? maybe to make a 
more complete comparison of distribution of languages.

anyway, the number of projects is really impressive.

cya
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Re: [SLUG] 2.6.0 and freeswan (Debian)

[Stuart]

Freeswan is broken with the standard kernel that ships with Mandrake 9.2
I have to reinstall the version that shipped with 9.1. Not even game to
try it with the 2.6 kernel yet. There are a lot of core dependencies
that mean you have to get the right mix of kernel version to freeswan
version. ick.

The super-freeswan (I am not kidding about the name) folks might have
got it all working. They tend to exist more on the bleeding edge of the
technology.

HTH

Stu

On Tue, 2003-12-23 at 01:02, Alexander Samad wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Has any one gotten freeswan and 2.6.0 to work together (ie not using the
> new native ipv4 ipsec stack)
> 
> Alex

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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[mlh]

 "Eddie F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 > Which lang' is used most in open source Linux application projects, is
 > it C or C++?

C is probably the most popular. 

But that's not necessarily the language
you should be using.  If you're doing application level
stuff, you should look at Python, which would mean
using http://www.daa.com.au/~james/software/pygtk/
or http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/pykde/

What sort of software do you want to do?
Kernel level, or graphical apps, or somewhere
in between?

Matt


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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:01:43 +1100
Robert Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You, you!!
> 
> Seriously though, C++ is only more complex than C if your problem domain
> is trivial. Beyond that, C gets more complex than C++ to model the same
> problems - IME. (Not that C++ is a panacea - it's not).

I have had things where C++ was the best solution, but not because of
complexity. When I did choose C++ I did so because I needed operator
overloading to allow me to define arithmetic operations on objects
which had arithmetic properties.

The most complex piece of code I have done in the last year or two is
the Sinc based sample rate converter in Secret Rabbit Code:

http://www.mega-nerd.com/SRC/

In that instance, C++ did not offer any advantage over C in handling 
the complexity of the problem.

Erik
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[SLUG] 2.6.0 and freeswan (Debian)

[Alexander Samad]

Hi

Has any one gotten freeswan and 2.6.0 to work together (ie not using the
new native ipv4 ipsec stack)

Alex
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[umug]

"Eddie F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Which lang' is used most in open source Linux application projects, is
> it C or C++?

I'm not sure why it matters, it's probably best to find a project you're
interested in, and go from there, but this might help:

http://freshmeat.net/browse/160/?topic_id=160

sourceforge might be another place to check.

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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Eddie F]

From: Gottfried Szing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
my suggestion to start programming and to contribute: use your apps as 
usuall and if you have an idea to improve an app (eg missing feature or 
problem which can be tracked down), feel free to change/enhance the code 
and send a patch. this will help u to get a feeling how "the community" 
works.
That's my plan, but I'm not getting very far with it. Thanks for the long 
friendly debate people, but I'm still none the wiser.

Which lang' is used most in open source Linux application projects, is it C 
or C++?

And can anyone suggest a book? I'm hoping there might be one that is aimed 
at working with OS projects, rather than just a book on how to cut code.

Thanks.
Eddie.
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Re: [SLUG] web-script

[Jamie Wilkinson]

This one time, at band camp, Kevin Saenz wrote:
>> under debian the restart does nothing else than a "ifdown" followed by 
>> an "ifup", ie reconfiguration of the network interfaces. a stop and 
>> start does more like mounting devices. so it in some cases it makes 
>> senses to stop and start again instead of a simple restart.
>> 
>Are we talking about RH 9.0 or Debian? :-)

service network restart [Red Hat]

  and

/etc/init.d/networking restart  [Debian]

  are pretty much identical.

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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Robert Collins]

On Mon, 2003-12-22 at 21:42, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:

> 
> 
> Learn C++ for to begin with to learn good programming concepts and methodology.
> Then, when the cruftiness and excessive complexity of C++ become too much,
> ditch it for the simple elegance of C :-).
> 
> 

You, you!!

Seriously though, C++ is only more complex than C if your problem domain
is trivial. Beyond that, C gets more complex than C++ to model the same
problems - IME. (Not that C++ is a panacea - it's not).

Rob

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Re: [SLUG] web-script

[Kevin Saenz]

> under debian the restart does nothing else than a "ifdown" followed by 
> an "ifup", ie reconfiguration of the network interfaces. a stop and 
> start does more like mounting devices. so it in some cases it makes 
> senses to stop and start again instead of a simple restart.
> 
Are we talking about RH 9.0 or Debian? :-)

> > sorry for sounding stupid. Could I ask what that type of script would be
> > useful for?
> 
> good question :)
> 
> cya
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Re: [SLUG] 2.6.0 killed my soundcard???

[Jan Schmidt]

On Mon, 2003-12-22 at 21:31, Peter Chubb wrote:
> Since installing 2.6.0 on my laptop, my soundcard no longer works.
> 
> There's hiss on the speakers, that changes volume when I adjust the
> master volume slider; but there's no output from anything: cd (via
> xmcd) /dev/dsp (cat x.wav > /dev/dsp0) the PC speaker, or even using
> the ALSA utilities (aplay x.wav).
> 
> It's an I810 with AC'97.  The funny thing is it doesn't work now even
> for kernels that used to work (e.g., 2.6.0-test10, or 2.4.23)  I even
> tried booting from the Knoppix 3.3 CD to see if it was a stupid
> configuration option in /etc/asound.conf

i810 are REALLY bad sound chips - unfortunately they seem to be in every
laptop :)

The best sound I can get out of it is to mute every other source than
PCM and Master, and not turn either one up full - as the 'full' setting
is apparently 1-2dB above clipping level.

J.

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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:35:23 +1100
Robert Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ouch! Thats nearly 180' out from what I'd recommend. C teaches very bad
> habits for C++ programming. 

I'd agree with that :-).



Learn C++ for to begin with to learn good programming concepts and methodology.
Then, when the cruftiness and excessive complexity of C++ become too much,
ditch it for the simple elegance of C :-).



Erik
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:12:51 +1100
Gottfried Szing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> ok, i was not as accurate as necessary. you are completely right, but i 
> think for a rough (very rough) classification the term C/C++ is correct.

No its not. You still don't hear people talking about C/C++/Java do you?
They are three separate languages.

> i think as long as C is viewed as a subset of the language C++ 

Sorry, but C is not a subset of C++. It is STUNNINGLY easy to write C code 
which cannot be compiled as-is, by a C++ compiler. That is any C code which 
uses new, delete, bool, class etc etc as variable names.

Erik
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Robert Collins]

On Mon, 2003-12-22 at 21:12, Gottfried Szing wrote:
> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
> > Please, there is no such language as C/C++; there are two languages C 
> > and C++. C++ and Java have more in common than C and C++ and you don't
> > hear of people talking about C++/Java as if they were the same lanugage.
> 
> ok, i was not as accurate as necessary. you are completely right, but i 
> think for a rough (very rough) classification the term C/C++ is correct.
> 
> i think as long as C is viewed as a subset of the language C++ (or C++ 
> as an "OO extension of C"), the term is not as wrong as "C++/java". and 
> learning C first, and then C++ is IMHO the best way. because learning 
> C++ without understanding the basics  (hear C) does not make sense.

Ouch! Thats nearly 180' out from what I'd recommend. C teaches very bad
habits for C++ programming. The languages, the idioms, and their best
problem domains are quite different.

C++ is /not/ C with OO added, nor is C a subset of C++. There are valid
C constructions that are not valid C++ (counteracting the subset
concept). And C++ alters fundamental C rules : some operator precedence,
behaviour of enums, memory layout of types.

Would I be right in assuming that you've programmed one of C/C++
extensively, but not the other? (Or neither extensively)?

Rob
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[SLUG] 2.6.0 killed my soundcard???

[Peter Chubb]

Since installing 2.6.0 on my laptop, my soundcard no longer works.

There's hiss on the speakers, that changes volume when I adjust the
master volume slider; but there's no output from anything: cd (via
xmcd) /dev/dsp (cat x.wav > /dev/dsp0) the PC speaker, or even using
the ALSA utilities (aplay x.wav).

It's an I810 with AC'97.  The funny thing is it doesn't work now even
for kernels that used to work (e.g., 2.6.0-test10, or 2.4.23)  I even
tried booting from the Knoppix 3.3 CD to see if it was a stupid
configuration option in /etc/asound.conf

The funny thing is that if I turn off the machine, I can play CDs
through the front panel switches.  I guess that this bypasses much of
the sound card internals.  

I'm using Debian unstable on a Clevo 56000P laptop.

The other possibility is of course that the heat's killed it.

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Re: [SLUG] web-script

[Gottfried Szing]

Kevin Saenz wrote:

Trevor,
Sorry for responding late how are you going to start a network
connection from a web page when you need network connection to access
the web port?
Wouldn't you prefer /etc/init.d/network restart?
under debian the restart does nothing else than a "ifdown" followed by 
an "ifup", ie reconfiguration of the network interfaces. a stop and 
start does more like mounting devices. so it in some cases it makes 
senses to stop and start again instead of a simple restart.

sorry for sounding stupid. Could I ask what that type of script would be
useful for?
good question :)

cya
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Re: [SLUG] web-script

[Kevin Saenz]

Trevor,
Sorry for responding late how are you going to start a network
connection from a web page when you need network connection to access
the web port?
Wouldn't you prefer /etc/init.d/network restart?
sorry for sounding stupid. Could I ask what that type of script would be
useful for?

>  
> what i would like is a start / stop link on a web page to run sat the
> following
>  
> eg../etc/rc.d/init.d/network start
>  
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Gottfried Szing]

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:


Sketch? Zope? Mailman?
woops

i have no idea what language is used most of the time, but my guess is 
(as noted above) C/C++.


Please, there is no such language as C/C++; there are two languages C 
and C++. C++ and Java have more in common than C and C++ and you don't
hear of people talking about C++/Java as if they were the same lanugage.
ok, i was not as accurate as necessary. you are completely right, but i 
think for a rough (very rough) classification the term C/C++ is correct.

i think as long as C is viewed as a subset of the language C++ (or C++ 
as an "OO extension of C"), the term is not as wrong as "C++/java". and 
learning C first, and then C++ is IMHO the best way. because learning 
C++ without understanding the basics  (hear C) does not make sense.

what i forgot in my last mail: the linux doc project has many guides 
about programming. e.g. shell scripting, kernel hacking, and much more. 
the link is http://www.tldp.org/

gottfried
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:32:28 +1100
Gottfried Szing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i think most of the code has been written in C/C++. python? hm, i think 
> this is just for some install/setup tools. applications written in 
> python is very rare. i havent seen them "in the wild" :)

Sketch? Zope? Mailman?

> i have no idea what language is used most of the time, but my guess is 
> (as noted above) C/C++.

Please, there is no such language as C/C++; there are two languages C 
and C++. C++ and Java have more in common than C and C++ and you don't
hear of people talking about C++/Java as if they were the same lanugage.

> and a suggestion for a book

My suggestion is the you get language specific, OS neutral books.

Erik
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+---+
  Erik de Castro Lopo  [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Yes it's valid)
+---+
"The worst thing about productivity tools is that there's
always something in them that makes you less productive"
 -- Chris Alfred Dec 15, 1997
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Gottfried Szing]

hi edd

what language?

From what I can gather, most projects are either C or Python (correct 
me if 
I'm wrong), so these 2.
i think most of the code has been written in C/C++. python? hm, i think 
this is just for some install/setup tools. applications written in 
python is very rare. i havent seen them "in the wild" :)

i have no idea what language is used most of the time, but my guess is 
(as noted above) C/C++.

what experience do you have?
Programing at Uni. Mostly in OO using C++, Java, VB, Delphi and Eiffel. 
A little bit of procedural stuff in C and Basic, and a little Unix 
scripting.
my suggestion to start programming and to contribute: use your apps as 
usuall and if you have an idea to improve an app (eg missing feature or 
problem which can be tracked down), feel free to change/enhance the code 
and send a patch. this will help u to get a feeling how "the community" 
works.

and a suggestion for a book: i have no definitive answer because i 
learned C with K&H and C++ with the stroustrup (is this correct?! 
difficult name!). but this is ages ago. so there is - i am sure - a 
better way to learn C, C++, and python.

HTH a little bit, goofy
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Re: [SLUG] Programming Book, for Open Source.

[Eddie F]

From: Gottfried Szing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'd like to get back into programming, to read (and possibly modify) open 
source code for Linux.
Any book suggestions?
hm, many open queastions.
Yes... Email first, think later!

what language?

From what I can gather, most projects are either C or Python (correct me if 
I'm wrong), so these 2.

what kind of programming?
kernel or application development?
Apps.

what experience do you have?
Programing at Uni. Mostly in OO using C++, Java, VB, Delphi and Eiffel. A 
little bit of procedural stuff in C and Basic, and a little Unix scripting.

_
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