Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

Just a quick follow-up on this.

I discovered last night that the reason that switching to 'performance'
made the problem go away is *not* that more CPU power was available, it
was that the CPU frequency no longer changed. My correlation of 'more
CPU usage == music skipping' was in fact basing my diagnosis on a
symptom. In fact, it's more like "more CPU usage == clock speed changes
== music skipping". It occasionally skips still, but it's nowhere near
as bad as it used to be.

So, for now, I've set it to use 'powersave', which is a hack, but a
manageable one.

Other discoveries last night:

- If you disable the fans, the BIOS will turn them on if it really needs
to (but don't blame me if *your* laptop explodes). For some reason,
Ubuntu sets up my computer to always spin the fans slowly rather than
turn them off, so this is preferable for me (it's quieter, and it has
longer battery life).

- Despite DMA being turned on on the hard-disk, there were heaps of
other things that were not. Notably, whilst DMA transfers were enabled,
the drive was programmed to use PIO mode (I actually didn't know that
went as deep as the driver). My laptop is a lot happier with these lines
in my /etc/hdparm.conf file:

/dev/hda {
mult_sect_io = 16
write_cache = off
dma = on
read_ahead_sect = 3072
lookahead = on
io32_support = 1
spindown_time = 6
interrupt_unmask = on
write_cache = on
transfer_mode = 34
}

(again, be careful setting those. The wrong value for transfer_mode will
freeze your computer; it was however, the one that made DMA transfers
worthwhile). The read_ahead value is something I'm experimenting with.
It is my hope that using OS read-ahead will mean that the disk spins
down a bit more.

- Adding 'noatime' to the options in fstab is a 100% awesome thing to do
on a laptop.

- Even though with the new drivers my GPU is quite capable of doing
'Desktop Effects', it makes the GPU chip seriously hot on this machine.
If you're on an older laptop (mine's about 2 years old), this might be a
good thing to do.

HTH someone.

James.

On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:04 +1000, James Gregory wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 09:44 +1000, Scott Ragen wrote:
> > James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 01/08/2007 04:56:26 PM:
> > 
> > > So that does substantially help matters -- I have to try pretty hard to
> > > make it skip in that situation. It unfortunately also chews through
> > > battery life and makes the fan scream like some kind of gently blowing
> > > banshee. Needing 1.7GHz of processing power to download email and play
> > > music seems a bit overkill.
> > > 
> > > But ok, it may be *switching* performance levels that is the problem
> > > (since that will occur when my mail client wakes up and does stuff). If
> > > that is the case, what kind of things could I do? I've previously tried
> > > re-nicing rhythmbox and esd to -19 and it seemed to have no measurable
> > > effect.
> > > 
> > Which driver are you using for the cpufreq?
> > cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver
> 
> It's set to 'centrino' atm.
> 
> > If your using the generic acpi, try the driver specific for your 
> > cpu/chipset. If not, try using acpi-cpufreq.
> 
> Is this more complicated than echoing the appropriate string into that
> file? I get the following:
> 
> # echo "acpi-cpufreq" > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver
> bash: /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver: Permission denied
> 
> And nothing in 'dmesg' telling me what happened.
> 
> I did make a little bit of progress on this yesterday. I found that if I
> use the 'conservative' frequency scaler, and renice my various courier
> processes (I use courier-imap for mail) to 19, it's substantially
> better. Still far from flawless, but only a stone's throw from
> tolerable. I might try configuring Evolution to talk directly to the
> Maildir and see what happens.
> 
> Thanks for the pointers.
> 
> James.
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Scott Ragen]

James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 02/08/2007 11:04:06 AM:

> It's set to 'centrino' atm.
> 
> > If your using the generic acpi, try the driver specific for your 
> > cpu/chipset. If not, try using acpi-cpufreq.
> 
> Is this more complicated than echoing the appropriate string into that
> file? I get the following:
> 
> # echo "acpi-cpufreq" > 
/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver
> bash: /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver: Permission 
denied
> 
This is getting a bit further then I've ventured, but afaik, you should be 
able to remove the centrino module and any dependand modules, (mine is 
labelled speedstep_centrino) and inserting the acpi-cpufreq module.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 09:44 +1000, Scott Ragen wrote:
> James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 01/08/2007 04:56:26 PM:
> 
> > So that does substantially help matters -- I have to try pretty hard to
> > make it skip in that situation. It unfortunately also chews through
> > battery life and makes the fan scream like some kind of gently blowing
> > banshee. Needing 1.7GHz of processing power to download email and play
> > music seems a bit overkill.
> > 
> > But ok, it may be *switching* performance levels that is the problem
> > (since that will occur when my mail client wakes up and does stuff). If
> > that is the case, what kind of things could I do? I've previously tried
> > re-nicing rhythmbox and esd to -19 and it seemed to have no measurable
> > effect.
> > 
> Which driver are you using for the cpufreq?
> cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver

It's set to 'centrino' atm.

> If your using the generic acpi, try the driver specific for your 
> cpu/chipset. If not, try using acpi-cpufreq.

Is this more complicated than echoing the appropriate string into that
file? I get the following:

# echo "acpi-cpufreq" > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver
bash: /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver: Permission denied

And nothing in 'dmesg' telling me what happened.

I did make a little bit of progress on this yesterday. I found that if I
use the 'conservative' frequency scaler, and renice my various courier
processes (I use courier-imap for mail) to 19, it's substantially
better. Still far from flawless, but only a stone's throw from
tolerable. I might try configuring Evolution to talk directly to the
Maildir and see what happens.

Thanks for the pointers.

James.

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Scott Ragen]

James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 01/08/2007 04:56:26 PM:

> So that does substantially help matters -- I have to try pretty hard to
> make it skip in that situation. It unfortunately also chews through
> battery life and makes the fan scream like some kind of gently blowing
> banshee. Needing 1.7GHz of processing power to download email and play
> music seems a bit overkill.
> 
> But ok, it may be *switching* performance levels that is the problem
> (since that will occur when my mail client wakes up and does stuff). If
> that is the case, what kind of things could I do? I've previously tried
> re-nicing rhythmbox and esd to -19 and it seemed to have no measurable
> effect.
> 
Which driver are you using for the cpufreq?
cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver

If your using the generic acpi, try the driver specific for your 
cpu/chipset. If not, try using acpi-cpufreq.

Cheers,

Scott
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Metrics]

James Gregory wrote:

Hey guys,

I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops for
some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
version that was).


It might be worthwhile getting the configs for both kernels and diffing 
them and seeing what _really_ changed. Are they the same version etc.?


Byron

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 15:56 +1000, Scott Ragen wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/08/2007 03:05:49 PM:
> 
> > On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:31 +1000, Robert Collins wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:27 +1000, James Gregory wrote:
> > > > Hey guys,
> > > > 
> > > > I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
> > > > horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops 
> for
> > > > some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
> > > > occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
> > > > version that was).
> > > 
> > > I'd check your disk is using dma; PIO disk IO is a great way to turn
> > > your laptop into a snail.
> > 
> This might be way off, but I had intermittant freezing problems with the 
> kernel using cpufreq ondemand governor.
> To see what govenor is used, try
> # cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq/scaling_governor
> 
> Try setting it to performance if its anything but.

So that does substantially help matters -- I have to try pretty hard to
make it skip in that situation. It unfortunately also chews through
battery life and makes the fan scream like some kind of gently blowing
banshee. Needing 1.7GHz of processing power to download email and play
music seems a bit overkill.

But ok, it may be *switching* performance levels that is the problem
(since that will occur when my mail client wakes up and does stuff). If
that is the case, what kind of things could I do? I've previously tried
re-nicing rhythmbox and esd to -19 and it seemed to have no measurable
effect.

James.

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 16:31 +1000, Heracles wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I have only 1GB of RAM and a 2GB swap. My scaling governor is set to
> ondemand and I don't have a problem with audio (playing oggs on vlc)
> skipping with disk IO and ftp happening simultaneously.
> My kernel is  2.6.20-16-generic on Ubuntu 7.04.
> Do the files work properly when they are the only thing running?

Yep, if Rhythmbox is the only thing running, it's ok. That's
unfortunately a slightly prohibitive solution. Also keep in mind that
this used to work, along with all the other stuff I normally get my
laptop to do.

James.

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Scott Ragen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/08/2007 04:31:34 PM:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I have only 1GB of RAM and a 2GB swap. My scaling governor is set to
> ondemand and I don't have a problem with audio (playing oggs on vlc)
> skipping with disk IO and ftp happening simultaneously.
> My kernel is  2.6.20-16-generic on Ubuntu 7.04.
> Do the files work properly when they are the only thing running?
> 
> Heracles
> 
Thanks for the response Heracles but its not really an issue for me as I 
was just experimenting with it on a Xeon processor.
I just assumed since its a server processor its not designed for 
powersaving features and put it down to a hardware incompatibility. I 
didn't play audio, but I noticed the user interface was very lagged while 
loading apps and such. I also noticed that under heavy cpu load it didn't 
increase the frequency!
I was just suggesting it to James as a possible issue.

Regards,

Scott
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[Fwd: Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels]

[James Gregory]

Forgot to CC the list on this one.

 Forwarded Message 
From: James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Denis Crowdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:42:23 +1000

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 16:15 +1000, Denis Crowdy wrote:
> James Gregory wrote:
> > Hey guys,
> > 
> > I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
> > horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops for
> > some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
> > occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
> > version that was).
> Might be helpful:
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=136179 - particularly the last 
> post with the suggested options to the kernel as:
> noapic nolapic pci=noacpi acpi=off quiet splash
> 
> Although some of those would mess with power settings on a laptop 
> wouldn't they?

Yeah, I'd prefer not to disable ACPI if I can get away with it. It's
also worth noting that this did work, on previous kernels, with ACPI.
The other thing about this is that it's solving the problem of the
sound-card not working at all, as opposed to that of it working, but
stalling.

> Can you get jack working?  Not very useful for general everyday Desktop 
> sound granted but might indicate whether a driver or ALSA was at fault? 

Hm. Similarly, disabling esd would tell me that. I might try disabling
esd some time later.

>   Also, there is a low latency kernel that I use on this machine 
> (although I can't say I've noticed better audio results).  Might be 
> worth a try.

Yeah, I'm currently using it, on the hope that it might help, but it
doesn't.

Thanks for your suggestions.

James.

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Martin Visser]

If you are running compiz/beryl try turning it off. I had a devil of a time
getting jack-audio in feisty to work without xruns (which basically results
in audio samples being dropped). Despite trying low-latency and real-time
kernels and tweaking the RT times and priorities it still didn't work
properly. It wasn't until my son suggested turning compiz that the problem
dissapeared. (Gr!)

BTW, The DMA issue isn't so much about getting the data fast enough off the
disk, but more about that CPU continually needs to be interrupted to
read/write the disk if you don't have DMA configured - hence instead of
attending to audio requests it is spending time handling disk IO.

On 8/1/07, James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 15:29 +1000, Amos Shapira wrote:
> > On 01/08/07, James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good thinking, but DMA was enabled. I checked the other settings, and
> > > twiddled them, but it's still skipping. Current config is as follows:
> >
> >
> > You keep assuming that it's an IO issue - what about creating a short
> file
> > which can fit in memory and try to play it repeatedly, just to see that
> the
> > system can keep up with the playing without the disk in the equation?
>
> Well, actually I kinda assumed it was a scheduler issue, but fair point
> nonetheless -- measure then optimise. However, all the 4-5MB files I
> play can well and truly fit into the 1GB of RAM in the system and I have
> no swap partition. I did the experiment however, and playing the same
> file repeatedly still suffers the same problem.
>
> James.
>
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>
>
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Regards, Martin

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Heracles]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I have only 1GB of RAM and a 2GB swap. My scaling governor is set to
ondemand and I don't have a problem with audio (playing oggs on vlc)
skipping with disk IO and ftp happening simultaneously.
My kernel is  2.6.20-16-generic on Ubuntu 7.04.
Do the files work properly when they are the only thing running?

Heracles

Scott Ragen wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/08/2007 03:05:49 PM:
> 
>> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:31 +1000, Robert Collins wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:27 +1000, James Gregory wrote:
 Hey guys,

 I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
 horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops 
> for
 some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
 occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
 version that was).
>>> I'd check your disk is using dma; PIO disk IO is a great way to turn
>>> your laptop into a snail.
> This might be way off, but I had intermittant freezing problems with the 
> kernel using cpufreq ondemand governor.
> To see what govenor is used, try
> # cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq/scaling_governor
> 
> Try setting it to performance if its anything but.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Scott
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Scott Ragen]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/08/2007 03:05:49 PM:

> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:31 +1000, Robert Collins wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:27 +1000, James Gregory wrote:
> > > Hey guys,
> > > 
> > > I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
> > > horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops 
for
> > > some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
> > > occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
> > > version that was).
> > 
> > I'd check your disk is using dma; PIO disk IO is a great way to turn
> > your laptop into a snail.
> 
This might be way off, but I had intermittant freezing problems with the 
kernel using cpufreq ondemand governor.
To see what govenor is used, try
# cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq/scaling_governor

Try setting it to performance if its anything but.

Cheers,

Scott
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 15:29 +1000, Amos Shapira wrote:
> On 01/08/07, James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Good thinking, but DMA was enabled. I checked the other settings, and
> > twiddled them, but it's still skipping. Current config is as follows:
> 
> 
> You keep assuming that it's an IO issue - what about creating a short file
> which can fit in memory and try to play it repeatedly, just to see that the
> system can keep up with the playing without the disk in the equation?

Well, actually I kinda assumed it was a scheduler issue, but fair point
nonetheless -- measure then optimise. However, all the 4-5MB files I
play can well and truly fit into the 1GB of RAM in the system and I have
no swap partition. I did the experiment however, and playing the same
file repeatedly still suffers the same problem.

James.

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Amos Shapira]

On 01/08/07, James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Good thinking, but DMA was enabled. I checked the other settings, and
> twiddled them, but it's still skipping. Current config is as follows:


You keep assuming that it's an IO issue - what about creating a short file
which can fit in memory and try to play it repeatedly, just to see that the
system can keep up with the playing without the disk in the equation?

--Amos
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:31 +1000, Robert Collins wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:27 +1000, James Gregory wrote:
> > Hey guys,
> > 
> > I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
> > horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops for
> > some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
> > occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
> > version that was).
> 
> I'd check your disk is using dma; PIO disk IO is a great way to turn
> your laptop into a snail.

Hey Rob.

Good thinking, but DMA was enabled. I checked the other settings, and
twiddled them, but it's still skipping. Current config is as follows:

# sudo hdparm /dev/hda

/dev/hda:
 multcount=  8 (on)
 IO_support   =  1 (32-bit)
 unmaskirq=  1 (on)
 using_dma=  1 (on)
 keepsettings =  0 (off)
 readonly =  0 (off)
 readahead= 256 (on)
 geometry = 19457/255/63, sectors = 312581808, start = 0

Thanks,

James.

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

Robert Collins wrote:

> I'd check your disk is using dma; PIO disk IO is a great way to turn
> your laptop into a snail.

To be more specific, have a look at hdparm.

sudo /sbin/hdparm /dev/XXX

will tell you current settings.

Erik
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Robert Collins]

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:56 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> 
> 
> > > > is there any reason you cant go to a cpu specific kernel?
> > > Because the largely pointless number of CPU specific kernels were
> > > reduced to a single generic kernel for edgy.
> > see hard disk IO
> 
> Not entirely sure how that's relevant to CPU-specific kernels. Separate
> kernels remain for the 'server' config, which may be relevant, but...

And IIRC the kernel team would like to remove them too.

Specifically the bigiron flavour is apparently unused and the only folk
with the relevant hardware roll their own *anyway*.

-Rob
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Jeff Waugh]

> > > is there any reason you cant go to a cpu specific kernel?
> > Because the largely pointless number of CPU specific kernels were
> > reduced to a single generic kernel for edgy.
> see hard disk IO

Not entirely sure how that's relevant to CPU-specific kernels. Separate
kernels remain for the 'server' config, which may be relevant, but...

- Jeff

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Dean Hamstead]

see hard disk IO

Dean

Jeff Waugh wrote:




i know this isnt a solution, but...

is there any reason you cant go to a cpu specific kernel?


Because the largely pointless number of CPU specific kernels were reduced to
a single generic kernel for edgy.

- Jeff



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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Jeff Waugh]

> i know this isnt a solution, but...
>
> is there any reason you cant go to a cpu specific kernel?

Because the largely pointless number of CPU specific kernels were reduced to
a single generic kernel for edgy.

- Jeff

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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Robert Collins]

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 13:27 +1000, James Gregory wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 
> I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
> horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops for
> some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
> occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
> version that was).

I'd check your disk is using dma; PIO disk IO is a great way to turn
your laptop into a snail.

Rob
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Re: [SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[Dean Hamstead]

i know this isnt a solution, but...

is there any reason you cant go to a cpu specific kernel?

Dean

James Gregory wrote:

Hey guys,

I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops for
some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
version that was).

It seems that it occurs whenever almost *anything* wants the CPU or disk
-- for example, my fetchmail and procmail setup interrupts music
playback whenever I receive mail.

Is there a quick fix I can apply to improve matters? My guess is that
userspace is being switched out, so having humungous kernel-side buffers
for my audio driver is something I'd consider here.

It's a HP nc4010, and lspci claims that the audio card is an "ALi
Corporation M5451 PCI AC-Link Controller Audio Device (rev 02)". Ubuntu
Feisty. lsmod reports the following 'snd' modules loaded:

# lsmod | grep sn | awk '{print $1}' | sort | uniq
ac97_bus
snd
snd_ac97_codec
snd_ali5451
snd_mixer_oss
snd_page_alloc
snd_pcm
snd_pcm_oss
snd_rawmidi
snd_seq
snd_seq_device
snd_seq_dummy
snd_seq_midi
snd_seq_midi_event
snd_seq_oss
snd_timer
soundcore

Thanks dudes,

James.



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[SLUG] Audio skipping on Ubuntu kernels

[James Gregory]

Hey guys,

I've found that playback of music on my laptop has this horrible,
horrible tendency to "skip" (by which I mean that the music stops for
some fraction of a second) extremely frequently. This has only been
occurring since Ubuntu's -generic kernels came in (I forget which
version that was).

It seems that it occurs whenever almost *anything* wants the CPU or disk
-- for example, my fetchmail and procmail setup interrupts music
playback whenever I receive mail.

Is there a quick fix I can apply to improve matters? My guess is that
userspace is being switched out, so having humungous kernel-side buffers
for my audio driver is something I'd consider here.

It's a HP nc4010, and lspci claims that the audio card is an "ALi
Corporation M5451 PCI AC-Link Controller Audio Device (rev 02)". Ubuntu
Feisty. lsmod reports the following 'snd' modules loaded:

# lsmod | grep sn | awk '{print $1}' | sort | uniq
ac97_bus
snd
snd_ac97_codec
snd_ali5451
snd_mixer_oss
snd_page_alloc
snd_pcm
snd_pcm_oss
snd_rawmidi
snd_seq
snd_seq_device
snd_seq_dummy
snd_seq_midi
snd_seq_midi_event
snd_seq_oss
snd_timer
soundcore

Thanks dudes,

James.

-- 
 James Gregory  --  http://codelore.com  --  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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