Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
Martin wrote: > The lag in producing a > stable distro is too long, as almost everyone in the project would > accept, and needs to be reduced a little I would've thought this less of an issue these days, now that package pools have been implemented and the 'testing' branch created. For those not in the know, the testing distribution is basically a 2-week-old unstable. Packages can only enter the testing pool after they have been in unstable for 2 weeks without a release-critical bug, and can then only enter if all of their dependencies are satisfied from packages within the testing pool. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
Jon Biddell was once rumoured to have said: > >> What you're really asking is why Debian is cool. I can answer that. >> > >> 2) Debian is a live distribution > > 2a - Which can be dangerous - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yes? debian adheres to this policy - bug fixes are backported to packages, rather than the package being upgraded to new releases - this usually means that config files and general behaviour don't change, and everybody's happy. >> 5) Debian helps you pull chicks >>Well I don't know about that one... But if I was a chick I'd insist >>on a prospective bed partner converting 8) Come help man the debian stand at linuxexpo.au! More details soon [hopefully] C. -- --==-- Crossfire | This email was brought to you [EMAIL PROTECTED] | on 100% Recycled Electrons --==-- -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Jeff Waugh wrote:
>
>
> > >1) Strong policy
> > 1a - A bitch to install, if your goal is to get a productive system up
> > quickly (vs VERY bloody clowly with NT)
>
> What does strong policy have to do with the installation? Installing Debian
> is a little more technically oriented than the rest (ie. it's not pretty,
> and it doesn't skimp on the details), but it's the same old stuff.
>
> I routinely get potato machines up and running in 30 minutes. Configged for
> the network, and with all the sillier Gnome options changed. The *only*
> thing that gets in my way is X3. Such a frustration coming back from X4. :)
Actually Debian is undoubtedly harder for a true newbie to install than
almost any other distro, from the method of kernel module selection,
through to dselect, where when your dependencies can conflict, and a
single keystroke can cause you to lose a lot of work. That said, I
install debian smoothly, and I wouldn't trade debian's control and rapid
upgradability for any other distro, but it /is/ harder to install for a
newbie.
Also, Debian policy can be a complete pain in the arse. For example, the
newbie with a little familiarity with other distros may do exactly what
the window manager doco tells them to do to change window managers, only
to be suprised when it doesn't work because of a symlink in
/etc/alternatives. Does the Debian way make sense in general? Yes. Does
it make sense as an isolated way to do things in practice, sometimes in
direct disagreement to the doc? Not really.
> > >2) Debian is a live distribution
> >
> > 2a - Which can be dangerous - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> That's precisely why stable exists. If there's any project that pulls "ain't
> broke, don't fix" to the extreme, it's Debian.
>
> Some machines *need* to be static, whilst others *need* to be dynamic -
> Debian does both in a straightforward way. Choose your poison.
Actually, I'd level criticisms at both ends. The lag in producing a
stable distro is too long, as almost everyone in the project would
accept, and needs to be reduced a little (though I don't think anyone is
aiming for up to date in the sense of the RH recent fiascos and nor
should they). At the other end, when was the last mozilla deb produced
in unstable? I would suggest that it's hardly recent enough to describe
debian as "live" enough, regardless of whether you run Sid, Woody, or
Potato. The browser space is hardly an uniportant area, and the delay
would never occur with say RPMs.
> > >3) Receptive developers
> >
> > 3a - No more receptive than SuSE, Deadrat, etc. The centralised
> > bug-tracking is a big plus.
>
> Here's a different spin: Debian developers are so receptive, that you too
> can become an official maintainer! :)
Another criticism, debian is becoming a closed system and you can't
easily become a debian developer. Existing developers view new
developers with suspiscion as wanting to become a developer for ego
reasons and the DAM is a bottleneck. For endless discussion on this
subject subscribe to debian-devel, I unsubscribed because of this topic
alone.
> Bug reporting with Debian is good. It's really satisfying when you get an
> email back after reporting a bug - a fix, a new package release date, a
> thank you, and a bit of self-deprecation thrown in ("I can't believe I did
> that!" etc).
Bug Tracking in debian is definately a strength.
> > >4) Debian has more packages
> >
> > 4a - Hm I'll let this slide.
>
> I think SuSE has more.
Yeah, SuSE has a lot, but so does Debian, a strength in both
distros. Debian doesn't include anything that doesn't meet the debian
definition of free, and you can decide for yourself whether that's a
good thing or not. I think it is.
The strongest praise I can give to debian is that I have tried every
major distro, and I don't have a rose coloured view of any of them, as
you may be able to tell from the above critique of Debian, which is my
personal favorite. Personally, I would never use any other
distro. Debian rocks, try it for yourself, but give it a decent try, at
least a month. You too may have crticisms, but I doubt you'll change
back.
cheers,
Martin
--
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Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
Damn, Jeff responded to Jon's troll while I was offline... If I get more sleep, will I too sound calm and rational? :P On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Jon Biddell wrote: > >What you're really asking is why Debian is cool. I can answer that. > > > >1) Strong policy > 1a - A bitch to install, if your goal is to get a productive system up > quickly (vs VERY bloody clowly with NT) How long do you want a system for? How often do you setup a system to be only used for a week? a month? Take your time and do it properly. I've found the Debian package system keeps the system more cohesive over time . Most RedHat systems I've used tend to degrade after 6 months or so - especially with software being compiled and installed manually. See #4 :) > >2) Debian is a live distribution > > 2a - Which can be dangerous - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you don't want to live on the edge, then you don't have to. If you want to stay up-to-date or help develop Debian, you have the choice. I don't see that choice with RH or SuSE. > >4) Debian has more packages > > 4a - Hm I'll let this slide. This shouldn't be overlooked. It's not simply a "my thing is bigger than yours!" taunt that can be brushed off. When a package is in the main Debian archive, it will get updated with the rest of the system. All those packages you've compiled yourself, don't. So it's better to have more packages in the main archive. This (of course) all depends on the maintainers to keep the packages up to date, but it has worked very well so far. The bug tracking system (and other developers) help keep everything in check. the only problem is that the main Debian servers are/were groaning under the strain of so many packages. ;) -- 8<8<8<8<8<8<8< Ian Tester *8)# \7\LINUX: because geeks will find a way [EMAIL PROTECTED] \7\ http://www.zipworld.com.au/~imroy -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
> >1) Strong policy
> 1a - A bitch to install, if your goal is to get a productive system up
> quickly (vs VERY bloody clowly with NT)
What does strong policy have to do with the installation? Installing Debian
is a little more technically oriented than the rest (ie. it's not pretty,
and it doesn't skimp on the details), but it's the same old stuff.
I routinely get potato machines up and running in 30 minutes. Configged for
the network, and with all the sillier Gnome options changed. The *only*
thing that gets in my way is X3. Such a frustration coming back from X4. :)
> >2) Debian is a live distribution
>
> 2a - Which can be dangerous - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
That's precisely why stable exists. If there's any project that pulls "ain't
broke, don't fix" to the extreme, it's Debian.
Some machines *need* to be static, whilst others *need* to be dynamic -
Debian does both in a straightforward way. Choose your poison.
> >3) Receptive developers
>
> 3a - No more receptive than SuSE, Deadrat, etc. The centralised
> bug-tracking is a big plus.
Here's a different spin: Debian developers are so receptive, that you too
can become an official maintainer! :)
Bug reporting with Debian is good. It's really satisfying when you get an
email back after reporting a bug - a fix, a new package release date, a
thank you, and a bit of self-deprecation thrown in ("I can't believe I did
that!" etc).
> >4) Debian has more packages
>
> 4a - Hm I'll let this slide.
I think SuSE has more.
> >5) Debian helps you pull chicks
Must going to the wrong installfests.
- Jeff
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ --
The Unix Way: Everything is a file.
The Linux Way: Everything is a filesystem.
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Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
>What you're really asking is why Debian is cool. I can answer that. > >1) Strong policy 1a - A bitch to install, if your goal is to get a productive system up quickly (vs VERY bloody clowly with NT) >2) Debian is a live distribution 2a - Which can be dangerous - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. >3) Receptive developers 3a - No more receptive than SuSE, Deadrat, etc. The centralised bug-tracking is a big plus. >4) Debian has more packages 4a - Hm I'll let this slide. >5) Debian helps you pull chicks >Well I don't know about that one... But if I was a chick I'd insist >on a prospective bed partner converting 8) 5a - "Number 5, your life is ready... Number..." :-) Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
On Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 07:46:12PM +1100, Richard Blackburn uttered: > Could someone briefly explain WITHOUT prejudice what is Debian as > opposed to what is not Debian? Please be objective. What you're really asking is why Debian is cool. I can answer that. 1) Strong policy Debian has a strong policy on everything from labelling software that isn't free to the locations of files on the file system. This last is a real breath of fresh air coming from RedHat where most of the useful software comes in "contrib" meaning it doesn't match policy. For example config files ALL go in /etc. No ifs, no buts. If a config file isn't in /etc it is flagged as a critical bug in the bug database and the developer is strongly hassled by the bug software and peers to fix it. By contrast look at the Majordomo package in RPM format which stored config in /usr/lib/majordomo (from memory). When every package you install uses a different location you really end up using locate a lot! 2) Debian is a live distribution With the tool apt, Debian is a live distribution with real "hands off" upgrades. If you run unstable (and you should -- unstable is a poor label as it is stable) you get upgrades to the latest versions of software just but running apt-get update and apt-get ungrade. This works by querying your local mirror for a packages list which defines all the available packages, their versions and dependencies. You system then upgrades selected packages that have a new version available. 3) Receptive developers With a centralised bug-tracking system, developers are really responsive when you flag bugs. For example I flagged a bug in msttcorefonts last week and it was fixed over the weekend. 4) Debian has more packages So nyer. It really is often a case of read about a new piece of code on freshmeat, do an apt-get update and the package is already packaged up in Debian. 5) Debian helps you pull chicks Well I don't know about that one... But if I was a chick I'd insist on a prospective bed partner converting 8) -- Rev Simon RumbleCurrent physical location: London, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED]Travel site: http://www.rumble.net/travel http://www.rumble.net -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
This one time, at band camp, Ian Tester said: >On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Craige McWhirter wrote: > >> There's going to be some long answers to this one. I'll focus mine on >> the RealPlayer: >> >> Nothing. >> >> Don't download the RPM, down load the Tarball which has an installer in >> it and you are off and running (worked fine on my Debian system). > >Gee, I've always just used the debian package that comes with debian. The >post-install asks you to download the RPM and put it in /root. I guess it >then uses Alien to convert it or something. realplayer depends on rpm, debian actually extracts the rpm to a sandbox and moves the contents to the Correct(tm) locations. -- "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using (o_ ' Windows NT for mission-critical applications." //\ -- What Yoda *meant* to say, Devin L. Ganger, scary.devil.monastery v_/_ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
On Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 07:46:12PM +1100, Richard Blackburn wrote: > I thought that might get your attention. > > Could someone briefly explain WITHOUT prejudice what is Debian as > opposed to what is not Debian? Please be objective. > best thing, read the "Debian Social Contract" http://www.debian.org/social_contract and The Debian Free Software Guidelines http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines > Further what difference would that mean if I wanted to load an > application, say, Real Player 8 for *nix? > nothing. amu -- Aus der Reihe "Arbeiten wie die Profis" k?nnte folgendes Zitat stammen: "Manchmal vergisst Windows auch, beim L?schen einer Datei deren langen Dateinamen zu l?schen, Warum? Wei? ich auch nicht, aber es passiert". Quelle: Buch "Windows ME", erschienen im Franzis-Verlag. -- Public-gpg-Key: http://tr.debian.net/amu/amu.key -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
> I thought that might get your attention. Have a look at 'alien' sometime... RPMs for Debian (and vice versa, and others). RPM is also packaged in the official Debian repositories. > Could someone briefly explain WITHOUT prejudice what is Debian as > opposed to what is not Debian? Please be objective. Okay, I'll bite. ;) Debian is the OS you can download from www.debian.org, or one of its mirrors. The project provides well integrated software that can be used on top of the Linux, HURD, and soon, the BSD kernels. But that's all semantics - how can you say what is SuSE and what is not? After all, they're all the same OS (Linux), and most of them distribute similar selections of Free Software. It's really the way it's done that makes the difference. :) The non-objective side of it is this: I reckon Debian is a very cool way of building an OS around Free Software. Nothing religious, I just like it a lot. :) > Further what difference would that mean if I wanted to load an > application, say, Real Player 8 for *nix? Oh, that's easy: apt-get install realplayer Really, I'm not kidding! Okay, realplayer is only distributed as an RPM by Real. Plus, the way they lay out the files and set it up doesn't really fit into Debian's design; alien doesn't really help out a lot. When you install realplayer in Debian, debconf (the standard package configuration system - ncurses clicky stuff) prompts you to download the RPM, and it then extracts and installs realplayer the 'Debian Way'. [1] Not all packages do this - you just happened to choose a good one to demonstrate how the Debian project routes around problems. ;) - Jeff [1] Some people get the impression that this strange thing sometimes called the 'Debian Way' is a wild decree that things must be in their 'proper place' and any exceptions will be flamed publically. Okay, so it sometimes is that, ;) but it's usually a lot more. How do you make sure that thousands of pieces of software work together well? You have to standardise, and have good ways of interacting with it. I've mentioned the 'rule of least surprise' before; Debian pulls this off remarkably well. I now say about Debian what I used to say about Linux: It's not quite ready for everyone (yet), but it's bloody good stuff already. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Craige McWhirter wrote: > There's going to be some long answers to this one. I'll focus mine on > the RealPlayer: > > Nothing. > > Don't download the RPM, down load the Tarball which has an installer in > it and you are off and running (worked fine on my Debian system). Gee, I've always just used the debian package that comes with debian. The post-install asks you to download the RPM and put it in /root. I guess it then uses Alien to convert it or something. -- 8<8<8<8<8<8<8< Ian Tester *8)# \7\LINUX: because geeks will find a way [EMAIL PROTECTED] \7\ http://www.zipworld.com.au/~imroy -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
There's going to be some long answers to this one. I'll focus mine on the RealPlayer: Nothing. Don't download the RPM, down load the Tarball which has an installer in it and you are off and running (worked fine on my Debian system). :) On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:46:12 Richard Blackburn wrote: > I thought that might get your attention. > > Could someone briefly explain WITHOUT prejudice what is Debian as > opposed to what is not Debian? Please be objective. > > Further what difference would that mean if I wanted to load an > application, say, Real Player 8 for *nix? > > Richard > > -- > SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ > More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug > -- Cheers, Craige. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] RPMs for Debian!
I thought that might get your attention. Could someone briefly explain WITHOUT prejudice what is Debian as opposed to what is not Debian? Please be objective. Further what difference would that mean if I wanted to load an application, say, Real Player 8 for *nix? Richard -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
