Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
Makes you wonder because now OSX wont be supporting IE in future Apple will be using a modified version of Konqueror. The problem with IE is its getting old and has some really nasty CSS problems. Ive deployed Mozilla 1.4.1 and Konqueror (in KDE 3.1.1) and I have yet to see a web service thats not working.Even the banking works fine for a change and some of the ABC web pages that used to look horrible are now fine. (don't post examples because I then would have to post web pages that IE cant open or look crap in IE) The company Im working for is doing some work for a large global finance company (over 14,000 staff).I was talking to one of the tech people and he was saying anyone who deploys a windows only network is an total idiot. He went on to say you will get one nasty virus and it will wipe your whole system out.This company now has a policy of never letting two network layers run the same service or OS. Their desktops are windows the servers are Linux the routers are cisco, and cisco just tried to get the voice services and the company said nope we want a separate company for voice we dont want a security problem in our routers to spread to our digital voice services and we end up with both our voice and data services wiped out. Also there is another reason for this policy the company doesnt want to get locked into a Robber baron relationship with its suppliers (see Microsoft). Geoffrey Robertson wrote: My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have receintly told her that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. They will be online and she will be required to use IE5 to read them. She has told them that she uses Linux and is waiting for them to get back to her. Geoffrey -- Regards Richard Neal --- GPLG GPLGPLGP GPLGPLGPLGP GPLGP GPLMICROSOFT GPLGP GPLGPLGPLGP GPLGPLGPL GPLGPL --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Sat, 2003-08-09 at 17:43, Shaun Oliver wrote: can you not change the user agent information with mozilla as with lynx as in the cat/text only browser Welcome to the murky waters. Yes, the poor end user can start playing silly user agent string games, this only works if the detection is based on the html header, not done within the java itself. On principle I refuse to change my user agent string, especially when others want to point at analysis of their webserver logs to prove the popularity of various browsers. Cheers, Malcolm V. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 10:16, Brad Kowalczyk wrote: exactly. Why people still think they can use user agent strings to get an accurate indication of the percentage market share for the different browsers out there is beyond me. Unfortunately I think a lot of non IE browsers are calling themselves IE. If I remember correctly the default setting in Opera 7.1 is to identify itself as IE?? Not sure about Mozilla. I think this site is quite amusing (I was poking around the LPI site): http://www.online-exams.com/ The description in their index.html: meta name=description content=Welcome to Online-Exams, the one-stop shop for all your online I.T. testing needs. Featuring preparatory tests for all the latest software #38; hardware: CheckPoint, Cisco, Citrix, CompTIA, Linux, Microsoft, MOUW, Novell, Oracle and more. Try a free practice test today! / If you visit this site with netscape/mozilla you will receive a message stating this: We're sorry -- this site has been built to accomodate Microsoft Internet Explorer, as approximately 96% of our customers use this browser At first I thought they had screwed their percentages and they meant to say 100%, but after checking it seems they specifically target: if(navigator.appName.indexOf(Netscape)!=-1) So yes this site works fine in lynx (among other non-IE browsers), I guess that is some part of the remaining 4%. Cheers, Malcolm V. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 21:42, Shaun Oliver wrote: if she's using mozilla, there shouldn't be too much of a problem as far as I am aware. somebody correct me on this, All it takes is some javascript-monkey to include some OS/Browser detection and you're (she is) heading for murky waters. Cheers, Malcolm V. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Sun, Aug 10, 2003, Brad Kowalczyk wrote: exactly. Why people still think they can use user agent strings to get an accurate indication of the percentage market share for the different browsers out there is beyond me. Unfortunately I think a lot of non IE browsers are calling themselves IE. If I remember correctly the default setting in Opera 7.1 is to identify itself as IE?? Not sure about Mozilla. Not by default, nor does any other Gecko browser I've used (Galeon, Epiphany) do this. There's a Mozilla Evangelism sidebar somewhere that makes it easy to change the User-Agent string if you want to. (Since the Evangelism folks are behind it, I suspect the aim is to be able to mail people and say Mozilla can render your site if it pretends it is IE, so why not drop the browser check?) -Mary -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 10:01, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Angus Lees I was considering packaging an iexplore installer for Debian yesterday. (download the freely available ie*.exe archive on package install and set it up under a wine-using shell wrapper) Oooh, you should get in touch with James Gregory, who was doing similar stuff for Mandrake RPMs. So the fabled RPMs (actually spec files so *you* can build RPMs) are probably almost not entirely unready for human consumption now. I'm still tinkering with them, and I'll post random updates to the files... randomly, but they work reasonably well now. Once the RPMs are built, just install and type iexplore as a normal user and great hilarity will ensue. I've tested on Mandrake Cooker and RedHat 9.0. The gotcha on RH9 is that RedHat don't have separate wine and wine-utils packages, so you need to either modify the files or use --nodeps when installing. And use the wine packages at http://newrpms.sunsite.dk/. So, the URL: http://www.james.id.au/specfiles/ Mail me with feedback or questions. James. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
*SNIP* All it takes is some javascript-monkey to include some OS/Browser detection and you're (she is) heading for murky waters. hm. can you not change the user agent information with mozilla as with lynx as in the cat/text only browser sorry for my referring to lynx as the cat but, given that I use a speech synthesiser lynx and links sound exactly the same. lol -- Shaun Oliver Becareful of the toes u step on today, they maybe connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow! EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 76958435 YAHOO: blindman01_2000 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: captain nemo 200 IRC: irc.awesomechat.net: IRCNICK: blindman CHANNELS: #awesomeradio #mircpopup-magic #linux #help #ourworld #audiofile #mauisun -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
if she's using mozilla, there shouldn't be too much of a problem as far as I am aware. somebody correct me on this, Thus spake Geoffrey Robertson, My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have receintly told her that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. They will be online and she will be required to use IE5 to read them. She has told them that she uses Linux and is waiting for them to get back to her. Now this is good. Nobody has /ever/ told my wife that she is required to do something she doesn't want to do and retained the use of all their limbs. She will take this to the union, she'll take it as far up the chain as far she can go. She will spend hours on the phone arguing. I can hear it now: Give me your name, email me a copy of your departments complaint form, give me the phone number of the Universities legal department and connect me with your supervisor *NOW!*. Will she be wasting her time? Does anybody know any sys admins at UWS who might help? Anybody got any strategys or amunition for her? I put MSWord under wine on her machine after years of argueing with people out at UWS who seem to know no other document format. I could do the same with IE5. But not without a fight. Geoffrey -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- Shaun Oliver Becareful of the toes u step on today, they maybe connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow! EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 76958435 YAHOO: blindman01_2000 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: captain nemo 200 IRC: irc.awesomechat.net: IRCNICK: blindman CHANNELS: #awesomeradio #mircpopup-magic #linux #help #ourworld #audiofile #mauisun -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Wednesday 06 August 2003 10:30 pm, Richard Neal wrote: The company Im working for is doing some work for a large global finance company (over 14,000 staff).I was talking to one of the tech 14,000??? did u say 14,000?? eeerrr... 'ang on .. lemme figure that out .. ave MS license x no of users =$mega$ ave linux licence x no of users = $0 nah... it is really too hard for me to figure out which is a better deal here :) my 1-bit brain just exploded from the stresses of the computation :) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
I've just done some research (hehehe) and the person responsible at UWS may be reached (politely) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
The thing is, if you accept their IE5 `requirement' now, you won't have much of a say when they replace all their web forms with ActiveX controls. Fight, now (politely). Mike -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have receintly told her that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. They will be online and she will be required to use IE5 to read them. She has told them that she uses Linux and is waiting for them to get back to her. Now this is good. Nobody has /ever/ told my wife that she is required to do something she doesn't want to do and retained the use of all their limbs. She will take this to the union, she'll take it as far up the chain as far she can go. She will spend hours on the phone arguing. I can hear it now: Give me your name, email me a copy of your departments complaint form, give me the phone number of the Universities legal department and connect me with your supervisor *NOW!*. Will she be wasting her time? Does anybody know any sys admins at UWS who might help? Anybody got any strategys or amunition for her? I put MSWord under wine on her machine after years of argueing with people out at UWS who seem to know no other document format. I could do the same with IE5. But not without a fight. Geoffrey -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
If its IE5 they want, I am sure a recent build of phoenix with the java and flash plugins would conform to all the IE5 buggy standards. I doubt they bother enforcing it in the web pages, they are just trying to clear out the v4 neanderthals dave - Original Message - From: Geoffrey Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Will she be wasting her time? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
Geoffrey Robertson said: My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have receintly told her that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. They will be online and she will be required to use IE5 to read them. She has told them that she uses Linux and is waiting for them to get back to her. I think the more interesting question is the legality of doing this. AFAIK they must provide a pay slip and even a written record of all the super deductions for the month. You can't require people to have to outlay money to check pay slips. Just checked with our office and they maintain that this would be illegal for them. Simon Bryan IT Manager OLMC Parramatta -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
-= Geoffrey Robertson said: -= My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have -= receintly told her -= that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. -= They will be -= online and she will be required to use IE5 to read -= them. She has -= told them that she uses Linux and is waiting for them to -= get back to -= her. -= -= I think the more interesting question is the legality of -= doing this. AFAIK they must provide a pay slip and even a -= written record of all the super deductions for the month. -= You can't require people to have to outlay money to check -= pay slips. Just checked with our office and they maintain -= that this would be illegal for them. Geoffery, what pay system are they using ? If it's PayGlobal (which I administer for another University), the browser is irrelevant, and the payslips are actually in PDF format. Email me off-list if she has any problems... Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Jon Biddell wrote: -= Geoffrey Robertson said: -= My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have -= receintly told her -= that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. -= They will be -= online and she will be required to use IE5 to read -= them. She has -= -= I think the more interesting question is the legality of -= doing this. AFAIK they must provide a pay slip and even a -= written record of all the super deductions for the month. -= You can't require people to have to outlay money to check -= pay slips. Just checked with our office and they maintain -= that this would be illegal for them. Geoffery, what pay system are they using ? If it's PayGlobal (which I administer for another University), the browser is irrelevant, and the payslips are actually in PDF format. soapbox Surely the more interesting aspect is being forced to pay a M$ tax simply to be on someones payroll? If Mrs.Robertson is the sort of person who is willing to be the dog at this bone, we could even establish some sort of legal precedent. Like all of us, I'm sick of being told that I *must* use Microsoft products simply because some clown has been brainwashed to believe that it's the only way of doing things, much less the best way. Even the ATO has been guilty of this crap, as well as some banks etc. It's probably too much to expect politicians to understand that being in the thrall of one (foreign) company is a BAD_IDEA (tm), but perhaps industrial due-process may see it more realistically. /soapbox -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
-= soapbox -= Surely the more interesting aspect is being forced to pay a -= M$ tax simply to be on someones payroll? -= -= If Mrs.Robertson is the sort of person who is willing to be -= the dog at this bone, we could even establish some sort of -= legal precedent. Like all of us, I'm sick of being told -= that I *must* use Microsoft products simply because some -= clown has been brainwashed to believe that it's the only -= way of doing things, much less the best way. -= -= Even the ATO has been guilty of this crap, as well as some -= banks etc. -= -= It's probably too much to expect politicians to understand -= that being in the thrall of one (foreign) company is a -= BAD_IDEA (tm), but perhaps industrial due-process may see -= it more realistically. /soapbox Whoa Down boy SIT !!! Good sysadmin.. I fully agree - I was only proposing a possible immediate solution to the problem while Mrs Robertson stuck it to the bastards...:-) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
The bigger picture here is requiring the employee to use a computer *at all* to check payslips. I would assume that by only providing payslips electronically, UWS must assume that all employees have access to a suitable computer at their workplace (after all, in my experience, payslips don't get sent home, but to your office pigeon hole) or as part of their employment agreement. I guess if you are a casual/part-time employee then you may not have a permanent office PC or workstation, but you ought to have some accesss to a shared office environment. (UWS I would imagine have to cater for people in all sorts of situations possibly with physical disabilities restricting their ability to use a PC, or even people such as gardeners or cleaning staff that never have used a PC) (I know this is sidestepping the must-use-MS issue) Martin Visser ,CISSP Network and Security Consultant Technology Infrastructure - Consulting Integration HP Services 3 Richardson Place North Ryde, Sydney NSW 2113, Australia Phone *: +61-2-9022-1670Mobile *: +61-411-254-513 Fax 7: +61-2-9022-1800 E-mail * : martin.visserAThp.com -Original Message- From: David [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 5 August 2003 9:42 AM To: Jon Biddell Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Jon Biddell wrote: -= Geoffrey Robertson said: -= My wife does some teaching out at USW. They have -= receintly told her -= that they will no longer be issueing paper pay slips. -= They will be -= online and she will be required to use IE5 to read -= them. She has -= -= I think the more interesting question is the legality of -= doing this. AFAIK they must provide a pay slip and even a -= written record of all the super deductions for the month. -= You can't require people to have to outlay money to check -= pay slips. Just checked with our office and they maintain -= that this would be illegal for them. Geoffery, what pay system are they using ? If it's PayGlobal (which I administer for another University), the browser is irrelevant, and the payslips are actually in PDF format. soapbox Surely the more interesting aspect is being forced to pay a M$ tax simply to be on someones payroll? If Mrs.Robertson is the sort of person who is willing to be the dog at this bone, we could even establish some sort of legal precedent. Like all of us, I'm sick of being told that I *must* use Microsoft products simply because some clown has been brainwashed to believe that it's the only way of doing things, much less the best way. Even the ATO has been guilty of this crap, as well as some banks etc. It's probably too much to expect politicians to understand that being in the thrall of one (foreign) company is a BAD_IDEA (tm), but perhaps industrial due-process may see it more realistically. /soapbox -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
quote who=Angus Lees I was considering packaging an iexplore installer for Debian yesterday. (download the freely available ie*.exe archive on package install and set it up under a wine-using shell wrapper) Oooh, you should get in touch with James Gregory, who was doing similar stuff for Mandrake RPMs. - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBMhttp://sco.iwethey.org/ Toothpaste is the most important meal of the day. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
Doesn't that violate the whole, debian is free software only thing? Is not that one of the things that makes debian good? On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 10:01, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Angus Lees I was considering packaging an iexplore installer for Debian yesterday. (download the freely available ie*.exe archive on package install and set it up under a wine-using shell wrapper) Oooh, you should get in touch with James Gregory, who was doing similar stuff for Mandrake RPMs. - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBMhttp://sco.iwethey.org/ Toothpaste is the most important meal of the day. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] UWS IE5 Policy
quote who=DE LUCA Ben Doesn't that violate the whole, debian is free software only thing? If something like this were even added to Debian, it would be added to non-free (or perhaps contrib, given that the package itself doesn't actually contain non-free software, but that's another flamewar). Is not that one of the things that makes debian good? Sure, not only is Debian a completely Free operating system as defined by the DFSG, but there is also recognition that sometimes, non-Free software must be used to solve a problem, and the project provides a method for 'embracing and extending' it. - Jeff -- Get Informed: SCO vs. IBMhttp://sco.iwethey.org/ I don't even understand offside so I'm not likely to understand a Manchester United contract. - Posh Spice -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
