Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-15 Thread Bill Maas
Hi Trevor,

On Fri, 2008-02-15 at 12:29 -0800, Trevor Talbot wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Bill Maas wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 13:51 -0800, Trevor Talbot wrote:
> 
> >> The thing that started this thread is apparently a set of holes, not 
> >> a header. It's unreasonable to expect official documentation for it.
> 
> > The thing that started this and a few other threads is there not being 
> > a board doc. If you substitute "unpopulated headers" (as I copied from 
> > Bernd's text in my hurry) with "various connectors" the story remains 
> > exactly the same. If there is a board doc, it will at least be clear 
> > what is a board feature and what isn't. No-one has asked such 
> > questions about net4[58]x boards, as far as I can remember.
> 
> I was actually reinforcing two points there. One was "non-features 
> would not be documented", but the second was the fact that what 
> actually did start this thread is curiosity about such an undocumented 
> thing. It got hijacked to discuss the lack of a manual, but a manual 
> wouldn't answer the question anyway.

In this particular case you and Bernd were of course entirely correct:
no board manufacturer has to answer question about unused holes on a
board. But this thread was only the last one in a series of "where is
connector X?" and "what is JPy for?" threads. I was reacting in that
context, I just assumed that would be clear given the number of such
threads started recently. I don't think this list has ever seen so much
curiosity in a Soekris board as it has the last two weeks;).

Bill


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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-15 Thread Trevor Talbot
On Feb 15, 2008, at 12:04 AM, Bill Maas wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 13:51 -0800, Trevor Talbot wrote:

>> The thing that started this thread is apparently a set of holes, not 
>> a header. It's unreasonable to expect official documentation for it.

> The thing that started this and a few other threads is there not being 
> a board doc. If you substitute "unpopulated headers" (as I copied from 
> Bernd's text in my hurry) with "various connectors" the story remains 
> exactly the same. If there is a board doc, it will at least be clear 
> what is a board feature and what isn't. No-one has asked such 
> questions about net4[58]x boards, as far as I can remember.

I was actually reinforcing two points there. One was "non-features 
would not be documented", but the second was the fact that what 
actually did start this thread is curiosity about such an undocumented 
thing. It got hijacked to discuss the lack of a manual, but a manual 
wouldn't answer the question anyway.

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[Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-15 Thread Johan L
Trevor Talbot skrev:
> 
> Er, they were populated headers, not unpopulated holes in the board.
> 
> The thing that started this thread is apparently a set of holes, not a 
> header. It's unreasonable to expect official documentation for it.

Sure.
But turned into a general discussion about the lack of 
documentation/manual for the 5501. Including the headers with pins and 
so forth.
I don't think anyone in this thread expect the holes on the board to get 
documented. Just simply something like "how do I connect the second USB 
or serial header".
Not providing a simple manual for the 5501 and leave that to the 
customer on a wiki is a lack of respect for the customer.


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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-15 Thread Bill Maas
On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 13:51 -0800, Trevor Talbot wrote:
> On Feb 14, 2008, at 8:26 AM, Bill Maas wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 16:07 +0100, Bernd Walter wrote:
> > [...]
> >> Yes - having a manual for this board would be nice, but I don't 
> >> expect that there is anything new in it.
> >> It will not tell about unpopulated headers - the 4501/4801 manual 
> >> don't do it either.
> >
> > Amongst the questions sent to this list are "which is the internal USB 
> > header", "which one is the second COM port" and "how is the GPIO 
> > header wired".
> >
> > Those were documented as Soekris FEATURES in the documentation for 
> > previous boxes, not as "there are unpopulated headers on the board and 
> > if you can find out what they are you can do lots of nice stuff with 
> > them".
> 
> Er, they were populated headers, not unpopulated holes in the board.
> 
> The thing that started this thread is apparently a set of holes, not a 
> header. It's unreasonable to expect official documentation for it.

The thing that started this and a few other threads is there not being a
board doc. If you substitute "unpopulated headers" (as I copied from
Bernd's text in my hurry) with "various connectors" the story remains
exactly the same. If there is a board doc, it will at least be clear
what is a board feature and what isn't. No-one has asked such questions
about net4[58]x boards, as far as I can remember.

Bill

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-14 Thread Trevor Talbot
On Feb 14, 2008, at 8:26 AM, Bill Maas wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 16:07 +0100, Bernd Walter wrote:
> [...]
>> Yes - having a manual for this board would be nice, but I don't 
>> expect that there is anything new in it.
>> It will not tell about unpopulated headers - the 4501/4801 manual 
>> don't do it either.
>
> Amongst the questions sent to this list are "which is the internal USB 
> header", "which one is the second COM port" and "how is the GPIO 
> header wired".
>
> Those were documented as Soekris FEATURES in the documentation for 
> previous boxes, not as "there are unpopulated headers on the board and 
> if you can find out what they are you can do lots of nice stuff with 
> them".

Er, they were populated headers, not unpopulated holes in the board.

The thing that started this thread is apparently a set of holes, not a 
header. It's unreasonable to expect official documentation for it.

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-14 Thread Bill Maas
On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 16:07 +0100, Bernd Walter wrote:
[...]
> Yes - having a manual for this board would be nice, but I don't expect
> that there is anything new in it.
> It will not tell about unpopulated headers - the 4501/4801 manual don't
> do it either.

Amongst the questions sent to this list are "which is the internal USB
header", "which one is the second COM port" and "how is the GPIO header
wired".

Those were documented as Soekris FEATURES in the documentation for
previous boxes, not as "there are unpopulated headers on the board and
if you can find out what they are you can do lots of nice stuff with
them".

And sending users into the archives IMHO is not a valid option in this
case. Product [feature] documentation should be available at a central
location.

I didn't count the months since this discussion first started...

Bill

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-14 Thread Bernd Walter
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 02:45:36AM -0800, gavrik peterson wrote:
> Wow! My question about JP3 sure got a big response. I think this is
> the second time I asked about something like this and it turned into
> complaints about the lack of documentation.

Well - after all you are asking for a documentation for a connector,
which doesn't exist - there are just holes.
I don't know about JP1 and JP3, but I would assume that one of them
is a JTAG header, which, under normal conditions, is for production
only.
The boards are a mix of embedded, vs. normal PC boards.
In the real embedded market you even can have the requirement for
a schematic.
I personally consider the board more normal PC boards than embedded ones
and if you by a motherboard from a random vendor you never get a
description about unpopulated headers as well.
I think Søren is playing nice compared to them in that he answered a
lot of questions for purposes that his boards are not designed for.

There are more questions like this, which may or may not be insteresting.
For example I also could ask:
If I unsolder the CF header, what kind of chips can I solder on the
fields hidden by the CF header?
At least on the 45xx there are solder fields for chips under the header.
You may say that this includes unsoldering components, but the thread
started asking about headers that don't exist.

It is true that other vendors are more informative, but it is also
true that there are many vendors, which are less informative.
I've made some expirience with chinese products and getting an answer
about anything beyound pricing is impossible.
And the board design made it impossible to ever put the board into
a case without doing ugly tricks, but this is another story.

> > How hard can it be to type a few lines about pin layout in a text editor?
> 
> Bill asks a very good question. Rather strange that things are this way.

Yes - having a manual for this board would be nice, but I don't expect
that there is anything new in it.
It will not tell about unpopulated headers - the 4501/4801 manual don't
do it either.
It mighr tell about the requirement for a 12V supply to use the internal
header for supplying an SATA disk, but anyway the header isn't populated,
so this feature doesn't officially exist anyway.

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-14 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen
gavrik peterson writes:
>>  How hard can it be to type a few lines about pin layout in a text editor?
>
> Bill asks a very good question. Rather strange that things are this way.

Everyone sucks. Errare humanum est. Soren's particular suckfulness is 
entirely different from how e.g. Dell sucks. Pick your preferred 
alternative.

(That said, I do wish Soren would hire someone suitable and get sensible 
documentation done.)

Arnt
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-14 Thread gavrik peterson
Wow! My question about JP3 sure got a big response. I think this is
the second time I asked about something like this and it turned into
complaints about the lack of documentation.

> How hard can it be to type a few lines about pin layout in a text editor?

Bill asks a very good question. Rather strange that things are this way.

  --  Gavrik

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 2:28 AM, Bill Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 13:39 -0800, Ralph Becker-Szendy wrote:
>  > Bob Camp wrote:
>  [...]
>
> > Not documenting the board does not in any fashion prevent or slow down
>  > loss of intellectual property.  It simply inconveniences the customers,
>  > and scares off would-be-customers.  Having said that, I'm sure that
>  > Soren knows where his priorities are, and that he is working on
>  > something that is more important that fixing documentation for older 
> boards.
>
>  Fix Bugs First, Add Features Later..
>
>  I've been scorned for selecting .txt as a default doc format in the past
>  (primitive, amateuristic, obsolete, stone age..). In this case it might
>  be a welcome start. I care more about info than about markup myself. How
>  hard can it be to type a few lines about pin layout in a text editor?
>
>  Bill
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-14 Thread Bill Maas
On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 13:39 -0800, Ralph Becker-Szendy wrote:
> Bob Camp wrote:
[...]
> Not documenting the board does not in any fashion prevent or slow down 
> loss of intellectual property.  It simply inconveniences the customers, 
> and scares off would-be-customers.  Having said that, I'm sure that 
> Soren knows where his priorities are, and that he is working on 
> something that is more important that fixing documentation for older boards.

Fix Bugs First, Add Features Later..

I've been scorned for selecting .txt as a default doc format in the past
(primitive, amateuristic, obsolete, stone age..). In this case it might
be a welcome start. I care more about info than about markup myself. How
hard can it be to type a few lines about pin layout in a text editor?

Bill


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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Jan Hoevers
Stuart Henderson wrote on 13-2-2008 23:06:
> On 2008/02/13 21:05, Stephen Patrick wrote:
>> How about a "WikiManual"?
>> Everyone contribute?
> 
> There already is one at http://wiki.soekris.info/, but bear in mind
> it is just information from random people on the internet who, even
> with the best intentions, might not be totally accurate.

It's irrelevant if the wiki is accurate or not, documentation should
come from the manufacturer.  The manuals for the 4501 and 4801 are
simple but adequate, and there is no reason why documenting a similar
product should take months.  I wonder what's going on.
I'm not yet buying the 5501 for this reason, and will move away from
Soekris if I have to, no matter how much I like their products.

Jan Hoevers
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Steve Holdoway
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:52:36 -0500
"Martin K. Petersen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All it takes is an email to the list and
> I'm sure somebody would wikify the information.

You mean, like http://wiki.soekris.info ???

(:


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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Stanislav Meduna
Bob Camp wrote:

> There is a "dark side" to this. The better you document the product,  
> the easier it is to duplicate. Simply buying parts and tossing them on  
> a pc board is pretty easy these days. Documenting without giving away  
> to much is a fairly difficult art.

Heh, oh yes, I know how the power plug is wired, surely
I can duplicate a power plant ;)

The people just want to know the BIOS settings and commands,
what connector is what and how they are wired, and maybe
the mechanical specs. No need to disclose the schematics,
PCB layout, ...

-- 
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2008/02/13 21:05, Stephen Patrick wrote:
> How about a "WikiManual"?
> Everyone contribute?

There already is one at http://wiki.soekris.info/, but bear in mind
it is just information from random people on the internet who, even
with the best intentions, might not be totally accurate.

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Alan Watson
> How about a "WikiManual"?
> Everyone contribute?
> Doesn't sound too hard to me ...

Okay, but who's going to do the Vulcan mind meld with Soren?

Alan
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2008/02/13 16:24, Bob Camp wrote:
> 
> There is a "dark side" to this. The better you document the product,  
> the easier it is to duplicate. Simply buying parts and tossing them on  
> a pc board is pretty easy these days. Documenting without giving away  
> to much is a fairly difficult art.

People aren't asking for something in great depth, something like
the manual that the main competitor to Soekris has for their Geode LX
boards, or the existing manuals for net4501/4801, would be plenty of
information and doesn't give too much away.

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Stephen Patrick
How about a "WikiManual"?
Everyone contribute?
Doesn't sound too hard to me ...

Regards

Stephen

-Original Message-
From: Johan Linner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 13 February 2008 20:11
Cc: soekris-tech@lists.soekris.com
Subject: Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

gavrik peterson skrev:
> The discussion about USB and JP8 on the net5501 got me wondering about
> JP3 which is located right next to the Geode processor. JP3 is a row 
> of seven holes (no header is mounted as shipped by Soekris). The Geode 
> processor has video outputs and I was thinking that JP3 might be the 
> red, green, blue and sync pulse outputs. Does anyone know?
> 
> Gavrik
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Which keeps me wondering...
How hard could it be for Soren/Soekris to publish a proper documentation for
this product?? It has been out for quite some time now.

Johan


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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Ralph Becker-Szendy
Bob Camp wrote:
> There is a "dark side" to this. The better you document the product,  
> the easier it is to duplicate. Simply buying parts and tossing them on  
> a pc board is pretty easy these days. Documenting without giving away  
> to much is a fairly difficult art.

Certainly, there is some truth in that statement.  I've been in enough 
meeting with patent and IP attorneys myself to be intimately familiar 
with the tension here.

BUT: Not documenting the pinout of connectors or what chips are on a 
board is just silly.  If someone REALLY wants to know what JP3 does, and 
cares enough to spend a few hours and a few hundred $, they can use a 
voltmeter to track it down to pins on the chips (probably after 
unsoldering the BGA chips to get to the pads).  With a few hundred $ 
more, they can get the board X-rayed (seen that done often enough when 
diagnosing defective boards).  And anyone who wants to duplicate the 
board would have ample economic incentive to perform these 
reverse-engineering tasks, while they make no economic sense to the 
purchaser of a board.

Not documenting the board does not in any fashion prevent or slow down 
loss of intellectual property.  It simply inconveniences the customers, 
and scares off would-be-customers.  Having said that, I'm sure that 
Soren knows where his priorities are, and that he is working on 
something that is more important that fixing documentation for older boards.

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Marc Balmer
Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
> 
> There is a "dark side" to this. The better you document the product,  
> the easier it is to duplicate. Simply buying parts and tossing them on  
> a pc board is pretty easy these days. Documenting without giving away  
> to much is a fairly difficult art.

there is another dark side to this.  without proper documentation,
people will stop buying your products.

like we did.  we don't buy soekris products at the moment for the lack 
of proper documentation (and bad power supplies).

and from some private emails, I know we are not the only ones.

> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:52 PM, Martin K. Petersen wrote:
> 
>>> "Johan" == Johan Linner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Johan> Which keeps me wondering...  How hard could it be for
>> Johan> Soren/Soekris to publish a proper documentation for this
>> Johan> product?? It has been out for quite some time now.
>>
>> When I was doing consulting in the embedded space I had several
>> customers back away from Soekris due to the (perceived) lack of
>> documentation and support.  This is simply a deal breaker in most
>> commercial applications.  Doesn't have to be fancy, but it absolutely
>> has to be there.
>>
>> I'm sure Søren knows this and that he is just incredibly busy.  But I
>> wish he would at least leverage the community he has successfully
>> built around his products.  All it takes is an email to the list and
>> I'm sure somebody would wikify the information.
>>
>> -- 
>> Martin K. Petersen  http://mkp.net/
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "gavr
ik peterson" writes:
>The discussion about USB and JP8 on the net5501 got me wondering about
>JP3 which is located right next to the Geode processor. 

I would suspect JTAG ?

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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

There is a "dark side" to this. The better you document the product,  
the easier it is to duplicate. Simply buying parts and tossing them on  
a pc board is pretty easy these days. Documenting without giving away  
to much is a fairly difficult art.

Bob


On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:52 PM, Martin K. Petersen wrote:

>> "Johan" == Johan Linner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Johan> Which keeps me wondering...  How hard could it be for
> Johan> Soren/Soekris to publish a proper documentation for this
> Johan> product?? It has been out for quite some time now.
>
> When I was doing consulting in the embedded space I had several
> customers back away from Soekris due to the (perceived) lack of
> documentation and support.  This is simply a deal breaker in most
> commercial applications.  Doesn't have to be fancy, but it absolutely
> has to be there.
>
> I'm sure Søren knows this and that he is just incredibly busy.  But I
> wish he would at least leverage the community he has successfully
> built around his products.  All it takes is an email to the list and
> I'm sure somebody would wikify the information.
>
> -- 
> Martin K. Petersen  http://mkp.net/
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Marc Balmer
Martin K. Petersen wrote:
>> "Johan" == Johan Linner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Johan> Which keeps me wondering...  How hard could it be for
> Johan> Soren/Soekris to publish a proper documentation for this
> Johan> product?? It has been out for quite some time now.
> 
> When I was doing consulting in the embedded space I had several
> customers back away from Soekris due to the (perceived) lack of
> documentation and support.  This is simply a deal breaker in most
> commercial applications.  Doesn't have to be fancy, but it absolutely
> has to be there.
> 
> I'm sure Søren knows this and that he is just incredibly busy.  But I
> wish he would at least leverage the community he has successfully
> built around his products.  All it takes is an email to the list and
> I'm sure somebody would wikify the information.

Some while ago, not to long, he mentioned in this list that he his
working on manual.  So I would say there is hope ;)

In the meantime, check the Soekris Wiki and enter any information
you find.

-- 
SELECT services FROM companies WHERE name = 'micro systems'

marc balmer, micro systems, wiesendamm 2a, postfach, ch-4019 basel
internet www.msys.ch, phone +41 61 383 05 10, fax +41 61 383 05 12
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Martin K. Petersen
> "Johan" == Johan Linner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Johan> Which keeps me wondering...  How hard could it be for
Johan> Soren/Soekris to publish a proper documentation for this
Johan> product?? It has been out for quite some time now.

When I was doing consulting in the embedded space I had several
customers back away from Soekris due to the (perceived) lack of
documentation and support.  This is simply a deal breaker in most
commercial applications.  Doesn't have to be fancy, but it absolutely
has to be there.

I'm sure Søren knows this and that he is just incredibly busy.  But I
wish he would at least leverage the community he has successfully
built around his products.  All it takes is an email to the list and
I'm sure somebody would wikify the information.

-- 
Martin K. Petersen  http://mkp.net/
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Re: [Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread Johan Linner
gavrik peterson skrev:
> The discussion about USB and JP8 on the net5501 got me wondering about
> JP3 which is located right next to the Geode processor. JP3 is a row
> of seven holes (no header is mounted as shipped by Soekris). The Geode
> processor has video outputs and I was thinking that JP3 might be the
> red, green, blue and sync pulse outputs. Does anyone know?
> 
> Gavrik
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Which keeps me wondering...
How hard could it be for Soren/Soekris to publish a proper documentation 
for this product?? It has been out for quite some time now.

Johan


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[Soekris] Anyone know what JP3 does on net5501?

2008-02-13 Thread gavrik peterson
The discussion about USB and JP8 on the net5501 got me wondering about
JP3 which is located right next to the Geode processor. JP3 is a row
of seven holes (no header is mounted as shipped by Soekris). The Geode
processor has video outputs and I was thinking that JP3 might be the
red, green, blue and sync pulse outputs. Does anyone know?

Gavrik
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