Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
On 09/17/17 19:16, Jason S wrote:


  
  
On 09/17/17 18:39, Anto Matkovic wrote:
  
  

  I'm
talking more from practical side. Let's say, once your
plane landed into jungle, how to make dinner of worms
:), which worm is better, so on.
  Regarding


Node Editor, someone definitively won't use it to build
a chain of deformers by bringing and connecting nodes,
because in this case, plain connect is simply not enough
to get things to work.
  Transformations


are different story, connect here works immediately,
making possible to build really nice and complex
interactions.

  
  
  No doubt, but I don't think that this takes anything away form any
  of the points mentioned in this thread,
  
  Points that similarly don't seem to take anything away of how
  complex node interactions can be with the node editor.
  


Hi, Just to clarify,  "No doubt" was for node interactions bit, I
have no doubt quite intricate interactions can be made.

Which worm is "better"? I guess that can mostly have to do with what
we are used to, and can depend alot on contexts,
but XSI sure had(and very-much still has) a pretty great deal of
stuff going for it, relative to the best of them.



  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  

  On 09/17/17 18:39, Anto Matkovic wrote:


  
I'm
  talking more from practical side. Let's say, once your
  plane landed into jungle, how to make dinner of worms :),
  which worm is better, so on.
Regarding

  Node Editor, someone definitively won't use it to build a
  chain of deformers by bringing and connecting nodes,
  because in this case, plain connect is simply not enough
  to get things to work.
Transformations

  are different story, connect here works immediately,
  making possible to build really nice and complex
  interactions.
  


No doubt, but I don't think that this takes anything away form any
of the points mentioned in this thread,

Points that similarly don't seem to take anything away of how
complex node interactions can be with the node editor.


  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

I'm talking more from practical side. Let's say, once your plane landed into 
jungle, how to make dinner of worms :), which worm is better, so on.Regarding 
Node Editor, someone definitively won't use it to build a chain of deformers by 
bringing and connecting nodes, because in this case, plain connect is simply 
not enough to get things to work.Transformations are different story, connect 
here works immediately, making possible to build really nice and complex 
interactions.

  From: Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com>
 To: Anto Matkovic <a...@matkovic.com>; Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:43 AM
 Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
 On 09/15/17 15:16, Anto Matkovic wrote:
  
  Whatever works for you. For example I never tried to key the global transform 
in SI, always used constraint instead, because this clearly shows what's going 
on. Also followed 'one object one transform' 'rule', that is, never more than 
one constraint or expression per object - this makes it easier  to connect to 
another structure, reset, so on. But that's just me. It's always possible to 
hide some null, after all. 
   
 
 Hum. I don't think it's just for what works for me..   --> * (see footquote)
 
 In Maya (as I think I understand) , once you freeze your object, 
 -it- becomes the center of itself (for things to be relative to it), 
 and looses all references to Universe 0 does it not (?)
 (also kind-of like many public companies actually ;) )
 
 Then where are it's 'universal pose' values after it's frozen?  
 (where is the object in universal space?)
 
 In XSI there is "Neutral Pose" which allows to reset to that, 
 but there is always a (read/writable, and resettable) reference to 0 universe.
 
 and as previously covered, where are it's  'local pose'  values once it's a 
child of something?
 
  it's doable but ... ... complicated  (for simple things)
 (more nulls forever)
 
 
 And consequently, I really don't think any advantage of   "dual coordinates"  
has to do with   'keying global transforms' 
 
 but rather (as you probably know inside) ::  
 --> there is -always-  'local'    ( parent relative values..   --and what you 
normally animate in XSI--  ) 
 and 'global' (universal) coordinates,   -- both coordinates for reference, 
keying, driving or just setting (or -resetting-),
 that are intricately part of absolutely everything, and there all the time.
 
 Without the need for redundant transient items that can accumulate quite fast, 
and clutter up everything ,
  ( speaking by sometimes already finding too many control items in XSI and 
always trying to simplify as much as possible )
 and without the need to calculate or deduce those (super useful) values when 
wanting to reference (or drive) them.  --> *
 
 and the previously mentionned  "sea of relationships"  can also very-much 
include how relations are represented in the node editor,
 with little to no abstraction to a way of doing things that (historically) has 
been recognized as over-bloated or over-complicated.  --> **
 
 
 
 * from 2005 (about clutter and things) 
 http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-173245.html
 
 ... in maya there are many things where i wonder what the hell is going on. 
 very often i parented an object into another and couldn't define the 
coordinates correctly any more. and much more things.
 
 a further example:
 after having mirrored and smoothed an object, maya has generated 4 additional 
objects to the scene 
 (2 transform groups, the low-poly mirror and the smoothed mesh). 
 
 working with blendshapes also generates some more objects, so the whole scene 
gets very confusing after a little time. 
 
 if you don't give a name to EVERY little thing (even if it's a texture node), 
efficient working gets nearly impossible.
 
 every object is connected to many nodes - the complete program seems to be a 
big net, 
 and it's your job to navigate through it. (really annoying under time pressure)
 
 while working with nurbs surfaces you should better clean up the history 
(delete modifier stack) 
 or maybe you get double transformations, can't move a parented objects 
correctly or get other problems like that.
 
 
 **  from 2016 about Maya transforms
 http://forums.fabricengine.com/discussion/585/maya-transforms
 
 ... as I was saying in the beginning, there is not reason to try to have a 
Maya transform.
  It is an old thing that caries with it many problems. 
 
 It tries to give many features that in theory sound great, like the 
possibility to set its pivots, 
 but in practice it's simply way to complicated, convoluted, over-designed, 
 resulting in a huge object (considering the context of its typical use) that 
it's slower than what it should, 
 not mentioning the headache it gives every time you have to de

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Doeke Wartena]

test

2017-09-16 22:13 GMT+02:00 Jason S :

> On 09/15/17 15:16, Anto Matkovic wrote:
>
> Whatever works for you. For example I never tried to key the global
> transform in SI, always used constraint instead, because this clearly shows
> what's going on. Also followed 'one object one transform' 'rule', that is,
> never more than one constraint or expression per object - this makes it
> easier to connect to another structure, reset, so on. But that's just me.
> It's always possible to hide some null, after all.
>
>
> Hum. I don't think it's just for what works for me..   --> * (see
> footquote)
>
> In Maya (as I think I understand) , once you freeze your object,
> -it- becomes the center of itself (for things to be relative to it),
> and looses all references to Universe 0 does it not (?)
> (also kind-of like many public companies actually ;) )
>
> Then where are it's 'universal pose' values after it's frozen?
> (where is the object in universal space?)
>
> In XSI there is "Neutral Pose" which allows to reset to that,
> but there is always a (read/writable, and resettable) reference to 0
> universe.
>
> and as previously covered, where are it's  'local pose'  values once it's
> a child of something?
>
>  it's doable but ... ... complicated  (for simple things)
> (more nulls forever)
>
>
> And consequently, I really don't think any advantage of   "dual
> coordinates"  has to do with   '*keying global transforms*'
>
> but rather (as you probably know inside) ::
> --> there is -always-  'local'( parent relative values..   --and what
> you normally animate in XSI--  )
> and 'global' (universal) coordinates,   -- both coordinates for reference,
> keying, driving or just setting (or -resetting-),
> that are intricately part of absolutely everything, and there all the time.
>
> Without the need for redundant transient items that can accumulate quite
> fast, and clutter up everything ,
>  ( speaking by sometimes already finding too many control items in XSI and
> always trying to simplify as much as possible )
> and without the need to calculate or deduce those (super useful) values
> when wanting to reference (or drive) them.  --> *
>
> and the previously mentionned  "sea of relationships"  can also very-much
> include how relations are represented in the node editor,
> with little to no abstraction to a way of doing things that (historically)
> has been recognized as over-bloated or over-complicated.  --> **
>
>
>
> * from 2005 (about clutter and things)
> http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-173245.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * ... in maya there are many things where i wonder what the hell is going
> on. very often i parented an object into another and couldn't define the
> coordinates correctly any more. and much more things. a further example:
> after having mirrored and smoothed an object, maya has generated 4
> additional objects to the scene (2 transform groups, the low-poly mirror
> and the smoothed mesh). working with blendshapes also generates some more
> objects, so the whole scene gets very confusing after a little time. if you
> don't give a name to EVERY little thing (even if it's a texture node),
> efficient working gets nearly impossible. every object is connected to many
> nodes - the complete program seems to be a big net, and it's your job to
> navigate through it. (really annoying under time pressure) while working
> with nurbs surfaces you should better clean up the history (delete modifier
> stack) or maybe you get double transformations, can't move a parented
> objects correctly or get other problems like that.*
>
>
> **  from 2016 about Maya transforms
> http://forums.fabricengine.com/discussion/585/maya-transforms
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *... as I was saying in the beginning, there is not reason to try to have
> a Maya transform.  It is an old thing that caries with it many problems. It
> tries to give many features that in theory sound great, like the
> possibility to set its pivots, but in practice it's simply way to
> complicated, convoluted, over-designed, resulting in a huge object
> (considering the context of its typical use) that it's slower than what it
> should, not mentioning the headache it gives every time you have to deal
> with it in the API. *
>
>
> *My suggestion?  You have Fabric now, that allows you to stay away from
> the bloated Maya's transform as much as you can. *
>
>
> *Learn instead how to handle Xfos, and do what you want with those. *
>
> *Care about the Maya's transform only when you set them from Fabric or
> read them for Fabric.*
>
> * You said you come from Xsi. Don't make your life unnecessary sad and
> ugly as I had to do* [image: :)]
>
>
>
> *_ ... really thanks for the detailed
> answer. Yes, I am trying to replicate Maya's transform  for 1. understand
> it better since now I have to work with it  and 2.understand Fabric Engine.
> *
>
>
> *I was thinking that Mat44 and Xfo were 

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
On 09/15/17 15:16, Anto Matkovic wrote:


  
Whatever
works for you. For example I never tried to key the global
transform in SI, always used constraint instead, because
this clearly shows what's going on. Also followed 'one
object one transform' 'rule', that is, never more than one
constraint or _expression_ per object - this makes it easier
to connect to another structure, reset, so on. But that's
just me. It's always possible to hide some null, after all.


  


Hum. I don't think it's just for what works for me..   --> * (see
footquote)

In Maya (as I think I understand) , once you freeze your object, 
-it- becomes the center of itself (for things to be relative to it),

and looses all references to Universe 0 does it not (?)
(also kind-of like many public companies actually ;) )

Then where are it's 'universal pose' values after it's frozen?  
(where is the object in universal space?)

In XSI there is "Neutral Pose" which allows to reset to that, 
but there is always a (read/writable, and resettable) reference to 0
universe.

and as previously covered, where are it's  'local pose'  values once
it's a child of something?

 it's doable but ... ... complicated  (for simple things)
(more nulls forever)


And consequently, I really don't think any advantage of   "dual
coordinates"  has to do with   'keying global transforms' 

but rather (as you probably know inside) ::  
--> there is -always-  'local'    ( parent relative values..  
--and what you normally animate in XSI--  ) 
and 'global' (universal) coordinates,   -- both coordinates for
reference, keying, driving or just setting (or -resetting-),
that are intricately part of absolutely everything, and there all
the time.

Without the need for redundant transient items that can accumulate
quite fast, and clutter up everything ,
 ( speaking by sometimes already finding too many control items in
XSI and always trying to simplify as much as possible )
and without the need to calculate or deduce those (super useful)
values when wanting to reference (or drive) them.  --> *

and the previously mentionned  "sea of relationships"  can also
very-much include how relations are represented in the node editor,
with little to no abstraction to a way of doing things that
(historically) has been recognized as over-bloated or
over-complicated.  --> **



* from 2005 (about clutter and things) 
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-173245.html

... in maya there are many things where i wonder what the hell
is going on. 
very often i parented an object into another and couldn't define
the coordinates correctly any more. and much more things.

a further example:
after having mirrored and smoothed an object, maya has generated
4 additional objects to the scene 
(2 transform groups, the low-poly mirror and the smoothed mesh).


working with blendshapes also generates some more objects, so
the whole scene gets very confusing after a little time. 

if you don't give a name to EVERY little thing (even if it's a
texture node), efficient working gets nearly impossible.

every object is connected to many nodes - the complete program
seems to be a big net, 
and it's your job to navigate through it. (really annoying under
time pressure)

while working with nurbs surfaces you should better clean up the
history (delete modifier stack) 
or maybe you get double transformations, can't move a parented
objects correctly or get other problems like that.


**  from 2016 about Maya transforms
http://forums.fabricengine.com/discussion/585/maya-transforms

... as I was saying in the beginning, there is not reason
to try to have a Maya transform.
 It is an old thing that caries with it many problems. 

It tries to give many features that in theory sound great, like
the possibility to set its pivots, 
but in practice it's simply way to
  complicated, convoluted, over-designed, 
resulting in a huge object (considering the context of its
typical use) that it's slower than what it should, 
not mentioning the headache it gives every time you have to deal
with it in the API.
  
My suggestion?  You have Fabric now, that allows you to
  stay away from the bloated Maya's transform as much as you
  can. 

Learn instead how to handle Xfos, and do what you want
  with those. 

Care 

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

Whatever works for you. For example I never tried to key the global transform 
in SI, always used constraint instead, because this clearly shows what's going 
on. Also followed 'one object one transform' 'rule', that is, never more than 
one constraint or expression per object - this makes it easier to connect to 
another structure, reset, so on. But that's just me. It's always possible to 
hide some null, after all.

  From: Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com>
 To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
 On 09/15/17 5:15, Anto Matkovic wrote:
  
  There's neutral pose in SI. However, that ''hidden parenting'' could be a 
risky business, too.    
 I'm sure sometimes access to some under the belly things in these "higher 
level centers" could be useful, or to perhaps have some yet more basic nulls?, 
 but for the overwhelming majority of the time, it sure made things easier to 
understand conceptually what was happening and why, while taking  bunch of 
complication away.
 which I presume were made to be higherlevel, precicely for that reason.. (with 
usefriendliness in mind)
 for something as basic or as elemental as kinematics.
 
 Not necessarily or only for isolated relationships between a few items (like 
camera rigs), 
 but mostly when following these relationship while making a mental image of 
what is doing what, 
 in what can quickly become  a sea of relationships  (and of complication and 
confusion) the moment setups need to be even moderately elaborate.
 And consequently involves quite a bit more "brainload" even after getting use 
to it.
 
 And I have to agree with what Thomas said;
 
 On 09/09/17 7:07, Tom Kleinenberg wrote:
   Unless you've used XSI you're unlikely to understand how useful that 
"dual-coordinate" method was.
 
 
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
On 09/15/17 5:15, Anto Matkovic wrote:


  
There's
  neutral pose in SI. However, that ''hidden parenting''
  could be a risky business, too.  
  

I'm sure sometimes access to some under the belly
  things in these "higher level centers" could be useful, or to
  perhaps have some
  yet more basic nulls?, 
  but for the overwhelming majority of the time, it sure made things
  easier to understand conceptually what was happening and why,
  while taking  bunch of complication away.
which I presume were made to be
higherlevel, precicely for that reason.. (with usefriendliness
in mind)
for something as basic
  or as elemental as kinematics.

  Not necessarily or only for isolated relationships between
  a few items (like camera rigs), 
  but mostly when following these relationship while making a mental
  image of what is doing what, 
  in what can quickly become  a sea of relationships  (and of
  complication and confusion) the moment setups need to be even
  moderately elaborate.
  And consequently involves quite a bit more "brainload" even after
  getting use to it.
  
  And I have to agree with what Thomas said;

On 09/09/17 7:07, Tom Kleinenberg
  wrote:

 Unless you've used XSI you're unlikely to understand
  how useful that "dual-coordinate" method was.
  
  

  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

There's neutral pose in SI. However, that ''hidden parenting'' could be a risky 
business, too. For example, XSI built in biped rig creator has a nasty habit to 
''zero out'' the rotation of COG (hips) controller. So, by moving and keying 
that controller horizontally, in Animation Editor there's a slight small 
movement along Y axis. Or, zero Y movement in animation editor is small up - 
down of cog bone.
Somehow contradictory, to use these hidden offsets properly, someone has to be 
able to visualize them.
As some rule of thumb, positional offset is more or less harmless, rotational 
offset is ( more or less) dangerous. SI has nicely exposed options to set 
neutral pose only on position. In Maya world, let's say that Maya pivot is OK 
to use, as only positional offset. While Maya Joint Orient, as rotational 
offset, it is a problem in many cases -  setting that thing to zero, whenever 
is possible, is condition for easier life...


  From: Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com>
 To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:20 AM
 Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
 
 
 Hum.
 
 I guess these "intermediate items" are probably part of XSI's internalized 
abstractions (?)
 
 I'm sure there must be advantages of having it this way, (1 null (& hierarchy 
level) for each axis of rotation ?)
 but I feel that these abstractions remove quite a bit of redundancy and 
clutter in sometimes already quite cluttered and deep hierarchies.
 

   #yiv8349857162 #yiv8349857162 -- _filtered #yiv8349857162 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 
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{}#yiv8349857162 --
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

 back to world zero and rework it there, I then drop it back
into the hierarchy below Roll where it was originally
located. When back in the hierarchy I execute Reset on
GeometryMaster again. It should then move to be in exactly
the same place it was before relative Roll, assuming I’ve
managed not change the Geo’s relation to transform and pivot
zero too drastically.
 
To
summarize:
Select
geometry object
Unparent
Reset
Transformations
Edit
object at world zero coordinates
Reinsert
object into hierarchy
Reset
Transformations
 
If
you develop a good set of habits in structuring and managing
your hierarchies, placing at least one group transform above
each geometry object, that kind of thing, its fairly
painless. The parenting required is relative the
articulation that is needed.
 
This
way of doing things may not likely be familiar  if you’re
coming to Maya from XSI. When I learned Maya transforms I
was coming from SI 3D, but I also had some experience on
Wavefront TAV, so it was less difficult to understand why
they did it this way. Funny thing is when I transitioned
back to XSI from Maya, about XSI 5 I think, at some point I
noted XSI had implemented Transform Groups. As a result I
started using the Transform Groups in XSI to continue using
the Maya structural “habit”  in XSI. I found that in time I
rarely ever touched the Center again.
 
Bear
in mind that Maya does provide a “global” abstraction
through Move Tools’ setting Axis Orientation. If you set it
to world you can move an object according to World XYZ axis
via the manipulator, but it will show up as local transform
values local to its parent unless you remove it from the
hierarchy. (This abstraction also seems kind of buggy in
2017 as it doesn’t update the manipulator sometimes when
switching from Object to World or back).
 
If
you need to move something to a world specific position, use
a locator or group that is not inserted in the hierarchy,
set its world position, then snap the object to that world
positioned locator(via Snap to Point).  Bear in mind that
the object is still relative its parent. It can be nonzero
to its parent without much issue if all you are doing is
positioning it relative the articulation xform of its
parent.

 
So
it becomes kind of a game to know how to set up the
hierarchy to manage articulations. What gets a lot of depth
and what doesn’t. And typically this means you rarely
articulate a piece of geometry by itself without a transform
group. Granted rigid body simulations, envelopes, and shape
animations are typically exclusions to that kind of need for
structural depth.

 
Joey
 
--
__
Opinions
stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not

represent
the opinions of NASA or any other party.
 
 
 

  
From:
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Jason S
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
    Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 -
    transforms
  

 
It seems to be the same issue in these
  threads.
  
  
 
    CGTalk - how to "zero to parent"
 
    CGTalk - roll / pan / tilt of camera
 
So any item you would want to animate  by it's local axis (or to refer to it's local transforms in expressions) needs an intermediate parent item? 
 
Doesn't that make sub-sub level items become  sub-sub-sub-sub level? (double the items at double depth?)
 
What happens when you reset the transforms of a child of a parent that's somewhere in space, pointing somewhere?  
 (0 zeroing it's transforms) 
the item snaps to world center?  and not to whatever posit

RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

ically this 
means you rarely articulate a piece of geometry by itself without a transform 
group. Granted rigid body simulations, envelopes, and shape animations are 
typically exclusions to that kind of need for structural depth.

Joey

--
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.



From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jason S
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

It seems to be the same issue in these threads.




CGTalk - how to "zero to 
parent"<http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=7=1256382=local+global>



CGTalk - roll / pan / tilt of 
camera<http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=89=1141823=local+global>



So any item you would want to animate  by it's local axis (or to refer to it's 
local transforms in expressions) needs an intermediate parent item?



Doesn't that make sub-sub level items become  sub-sub-sub-sub level? (double 
the items at double depth?)



What happens when you reset the transforms of a child of a parent that's 
somewhere in space, pointing somewhere?

 (0 zeroing it's transforms)

the item snaps to world center?  and not to whatever position/orientation of 
it's parent?



On 09/11/17 11:01, Morten Bartholdy wrote:

Thanks guys - there is plenty to investigate here :)



//MB


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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
It seems to be the same issue in these threads.

CGTalk - how to "zero to parent"

CGTalk - roll / pan / tilt of camera

So any item you would want to animate  by it's local axis (or to refer to it's local transforms in expressions) needs an intermediate parent item? 

Doesn't that make sub-sub level items become  sub-sub-sub-sub level? (double the items at double depth?)

What happens when you reset the transforms of a child of a parent that's somewhere in space, pointing somewhere?  
 (0 zeroing it's transforms) 
the item snaps to world center?  and not to whatever position/orientation of it's parent?


  
On 09/11/17 11:01, Morten Bartholdy wrote:



  Thanks guys - there is plenty to investigate here :)

//MB



  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Martin]

electKey -clear ;
>> rotate -r -os -fo 32.234531 0 0 ;
>> rotate -r -os -fo 0 33.615086 0 ;
>> select -r pCone1 ;
>> selectKey -clear ;
>> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
>> "pCone1.tz";
>> currentTime 30 ;
>> move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -37.704086 ;
>> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
>> "pCone1.tz";
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Joey
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
>> Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
>> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:52 AM
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
>> 
>> More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
>> organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
>> work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
>> relation to the child. The object as child to the gun must be zero-centric 
>> to it. In other words, the gun must be the "world" coordinates for the gun. 
>> Does that make sense?
>> 
>> Run the MEL commands below in your script editor in an empty scene. See 
>> specifically the angle of locator2 and the keyframed z translation of 
>> pCone1. Move locator1 around at will, and you can change the orientation of 
>> locator2 if you desire, but the cone's motion is always maintained on Z axis 
>> relative everything it is parented to. And it is only animated explicitly on 
>> Z. See the Graph editor for pCone1. Is this similar to what you are trying 
>> to accomplish?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> file -f -new;
>> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
>> updateRenderOverride;
>> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
>> CreatePolygonCone;
>> polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; parent 
>> pCone1 locator2 ; select -r locator2 ; selectKey -clear ; parent locator2 
>> locator1 ; select -r locator2 ; selectKey -clear ; rotate -r -os -fo 
>> 9.453111 0 0 ; setAttr "locator2.rotateX" 45; select -r pCone1 ; selectKey 
>> -clear ; if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` 
>> )setKeyframe "pCone1.tz"; currentTime 30 ; move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -8.127347 ; 
>> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
>> "pCone1.tz"; currentTime 22 ; selectKey -clear ; currentTime 15 ; select -r 
>> locator2 ; selectKey -clear ; select -r locator2 pCone1 ; selectKey -clear ; 
>> select -r pCone1 ; selectKey -clear ;
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Joey Ponthieux
>> __
>> Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not 
>> represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten 
>> Bartholdy
>> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:17 AM
>> To: Userlist, Softimage <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
>> Subject: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
>> 
>> So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences 
>> between the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran 
>> into something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
>> Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some 
>> obscure submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:
>> 
>> I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few 
>> things that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy 
>> which is parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I 
>> just want it to fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform 
>> Tool Settings, Axis Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along 
>> z-axis and keyframe. Now I want to edit the function curves to make sure it 
>> accelerates as desired, open the graph editor and see graph representation 
>> of its motion is in world space, ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, 
>> but also on x and Y. Obviously editing these curves  manually will easily 
>> lead to havi

RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Morten Bartholdy]

Thanks guys - there is plenty to investigate here :)

//MB



> Den 11. september 2017 klokken 16:50 skrev "Ponthieux, Joseph G. 
> (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]" <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov>:
> 
> 
> Here is another example which is probably closer to what you really want. I'm 
> making that assumption of course with no knowledge of your scene. (BTW, 
> ignore the cone2 and pipe2, they are left behind as a result of my editing 
> the MEL. 
> 
> There are some details in the original MEL which are left out or cryptic. 
> This is an attempt to explain that.
> 
> What you can't easily see in the MEL that I am doing at several steps, is 
> that when the Pipe and Cone are resting as children to locator2 I am 
> executing Freeze Transformations then Reset Transformations on both the Pipe 
> and Cone  after all repositioning is final. This effectively zeroes them out 
> in relation to their parent. This works if everything is aligned properly in 
> original construction. 
> 
> The MEL command below that represents that freezing action on the transforms 
> is "makeIdentity". I use Freeze then Reset because Freeze zeroes out the 
> pivots, Reset zeroes out the transforms sending the transform "center" back 
> to "world zero". The actual MEL commands are :
> 
> FreezeTransformations;
> ResetTransformations;
> 
> They are normally executed from Modify. They can be seen in MEL if you set 
> the script editor to Echo All Commands. It may not look like Reset is doing 
> anything if you have not moved the object away from world center. Reset's 
> action will only be evident if you move the object to something of non-zero 
> translation. Generally its just habit after 20 years, I always execute Freeze 
> then Reset as a default part of the process. If the object wasn't moved, it 
> wont hurt it.
> 
> 
> A synopsis of the process is as follows:
> 
> Create, rotate and move the pipe. Preferably at world center and its length 
> aligned with z axis. 
> Create, rotate, and move the  cone (analog for a bullet I guess). Also at 
> world center and also aligned with z axis for z translation in relation to 
> the pipe.
> Parent both under a locator. Also at World center. Do not move or change its 
> position or orientation.
> Execute Freeze/Reset on both Pipe and Cone.
> Move & rotate the locator at will. Cone should follow the pipe and be keyable 
> as translation only in the z axis to follow the pipe.
>  
> 
> Here is the MEL to demonstrate.
> 
> 
> 
> file -f -new;
> CreatePolygonCone;
> polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; 
> setAttr "pCone1.rotateX" -90;
> CreatePolygonPipe;
> polyPipe -r 1 -h 2 -t 0.5 -sa 20 -sh 1 -sc 0 -ax 0 1 0 -cuv 1 -rcp 0 -ch 1;
> setAttr "pPipe1.rotateX" -90;
> select -cl  ;
> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0; 
> select -r locator1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> select -r locator2 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> parent locator2 locator1 ;
> parent pPipe1 locator2 ; 
> select -r pCone1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> parent pCone1 locator2 ; 
> select -r locator2 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> select -r pPipe1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
> select -r pCone1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
> select -r pPipe1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> setAttr "pPipe1.scaleZ" 10;
> select -addFirst polyPipe1 ;
> setAttr "polyPipe1.thickness" .1;
> makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
> select -r locator1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> rotate -r -os -fo 32.234531 0 0 ;
> rotate -r -os -fo 0 33.615086 0 ;
> select -r pCone1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
> "pCone1.tz";
> currentTime 30 ;
> move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -37.704086 ;
> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
> "pCone1.tz";
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
> Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:52 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
> 
> More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
> organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
> work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
> relation to the child. The o

RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Here is another example which is probably closer to what you really want. I'm 
making that assumption of course with no knowledge of your scene. (BTW, ignore 
the cone2 and pipe2, they are left behind as a result of my editing the MEL. 

There are some details in the original MEL which are left out or cryptic. This 
is an attempt to explain that.

What you can't easily see in the MEL that I am doing at several steps, is that 
when the Pipe and Cone are resting as children to locator2 I am executing 
Freeze Transformations then Reset Transformations on both the Pipe and Cone  
after all repositioning is final. This effectively zeroes them out in relation 
to their parent. This works if everything is aligned properly in original 
construction. 

The MEL command below that represents that freezing action on the transforms is 
"makeIdentity". I use Freeze then Reset because Freeze zeroes out the pivots, 
Reset zeroes out the transforms sending the transform "center" back to "world 
zero". The actual MEL commands are :

FreezeTransformations;
ResetTransformations;

They are normally executed from Modify. They can be seen in MEL if you set the 
script editor to Echo All Commands. It may not look like Reset is doing 
anything if you have not moved the object away from world center. Reset's 
action will only be evident if you move the object to something of non-zero 
translation. Generally its just habit after 20 years, I always execute Freeze 
then Reset as a default part of the process. If the object wasn't moved, it 
wont hurt it.


A synopsis of the process is as follows:

Create, rotate and move the pipe. Preferably at world center and its length 
aligned with z axis. 
Create, rotate, and move the  cone (analog for a bullet I guess). Also at world 
center and also aligned with z axis for z translation in relation to the pipe.
Parent both under a locator. Also at World center. Do not move or change its 
position or orientation.
Execute Freeze/Reset on both Pipe and Cone.
Move & rotate the locator at will. Cone should follow the pipe and be keyable 
as translation only in the z axis to follow the pipe.
 

Here is the MEL to demonstrate.



file -f -new;
CreatePolygonCone;
polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; 
setAttr "pCone1.rotateX" -90;
CreatePolygonPipe;
polyPipe -r 1 -h 2 -t 0.5 -sa 20 -sh 1 -sc 0 -ax 0 1 0 -cuv 1 -rcp 0 -ch 1;
setAttr "pPipe1.rotateX" -90;
select -cl  ;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0; 
select -r locator1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
parent locator2 locator1 ;
parent pPipe1 locator2 ; 
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
parent pCone1 locator2 ; 
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r pPipe1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
select -r pPipe1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
setAttr "pPipe1.scaleZ" 10;
select -addFirst polyPipe1 ;
setAttr "polyPipe1.thickness" .1;
makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
select -r locator1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
rotate -r -os -fo 32.234531 0 0 ;
rotate -r -os -fo 0 33.615086 0 ;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";
currentTime 30 ;
move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -37.704086 ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";




Joey






-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, Joseph 
G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:52 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
relation to the child. The object as child to the gun must be zero-centric to 
it. In other words, the gun must be the "world" coordinates for the gun. Does 
that make sense?

Run the MEL commands below in your script editor in an empty scene. See 
specifically the angle of locator2 and the keyframed z translation of pCone1. 
Move locator1 around at will, and you can change the orientation of locator2 if 
you desire, but the cone's motion is always maintained on Z axis relative 
everything it is parented to. And it is only animated explicitly on Z. See the 
Graph editor for pCone1. Is this similar to what you are trying to accomplish?




file -f -new;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
updateRenderOverride;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
CreatePolygonCone;
polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; parent 

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

While it won't help with global-local switching - just in case you don't know 
already when it comes to 'motion path' thing -  there's relative new feature 
called "editable motion trail", basically is function curve in 3d viewport, 
imho it's nice feature, worth to try.
  From: Morten Bartholdy <x...@colorshopvfx.dk>
 To: "Userlist, Softimage" <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 12:16 PM
 Subject: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences between 
the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran into 
something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some obscure 
submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:

I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few things 
that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy which is 
parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I just want it to 
fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform Tool Settings, Axis 
Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along z-axis and keyframe. Now I 
want to edit the function curves to make sure it accelerates as desired, open 
the graph editor and see graph representation of its motion is in world space, 
ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, but also on x and Y. Obviously 
editing these curves  manually will easily lead to having the object not flying 
in a straight line...

In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more 
cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would really 
prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in the Graph 
Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar functionality many 
times through different Maya versions, so far without luck, so she can not 
offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on the part of the Maya devs.

Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of 
functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer advice 
regarding how to achieve something similar?

Thanks (sigh)

Morten
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RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
relation to the child. The object as child to the gun must be zero-centric to 
it. In other words, the gun must be the "world" coordinates for the gun. Does 
that make sense?

Run the MEL commands below in your script editor in an empty scene. See 
specifically the angle of locator2 and the keyframed z translation of pCone1. 
Move locator1 around at will, and you can change the orientation of locator2 if 
you desire, but the cone's motion is always maintained on Z axis relative 
everything it is parented to. And it is only animated explicitly on Z. See the 
Graph editor for pCone1. Is this similar to what you are trying to accomplish?




file -f -new;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0; 
updateRenderOverride;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
CreatePolygonCone;
polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1;
parent pCone1 locator2 ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
parent locator2 locator1 ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
rotate -r -os -fo 9.453111 0 0 ;
setAttr "locator2.rotateX" 45;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";
currentTime 30 ;
move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -8.127347 ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";
currentTime 22 ;
selectKey -clear ;
currentTime 15 ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r locator2 pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;





Joey Ponthieux
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not 
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.






-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:17 AM
To: Userlist, Softimage <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences between 
the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran into 
something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some obscure 
submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:

I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few things 
that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy which is 
parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I just want it to 
fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform Tool Settings, Axis 
Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along z-axis and keyframe. Now I 
want to edit the function curves to make sure it accelerates as desired, open 
the graph editor and see graph representation of its motion is in world space, 
ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, but also on x and Y. Obviously 
editing these curves  manually will easily lead to having the object not flying 
in a straight line...

In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more 
cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would really 
prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in the Graph 
Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar functionality many 
times through different Maya versions, so far without luck, so she can not 
offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on the part of the Maya devs.

Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of 
functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer advice 
regarding how to achieve something similar?

Thanks (sigh)

Morten
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Tom Kleinenberg]

I think that you may be out of luck - Maya has no conception of World vs
Object space. If you parented the object under a group, you may be able to
set the orientation of that according to the gun and then you'd only have
to animated it in 1 axis (maybe 2 if there's drop... but at least on a ZY
plane rather than through XYZ). You can also use a Motion Trail (Animate >
Create Motion Trail) for a visual representation. Little video here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nst3db21N-E

I don't know if those suggestions are any help.

On 11 September 2017 at 11:16, Morten Bartholdy  wrote:

> So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences
> between the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just
> ran into something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite
> mindboggling. Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful
> stuff in some obscure submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:
>
> I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few
> things that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy
> which is parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I
> just want it to fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform
> Tool Settings, Axis Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along
> z-axis and keyframe. Now I want to edit the function curves to make sure it
> accelerates as desired, open the graph editor and see graph representation
> of its motion is in world space, ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis,
> but also on x and Y. Obviously editing these curves  manually will easily
> lead to having the object not flying in a straight line...
>
> In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more
> cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would
> really prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in
> the Graph Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar
> functionality many times through different Maya versions, so far without
> luck, so she can not offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on
> the part of the Maya devs.
>
> Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of
> functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer
> advice regarding how to achieve something similar?
>
> Thanks (sigh)
>
> Morten
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
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Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Morten Bartholdy]

So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences between 
the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran into 
something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some obscure 
submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:

I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few things 
that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy which is 
parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I just want it to 
fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform Tool Settings, Axis 
Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along z-axis and keyframe. Now I 
want to edit the function curves to make sure it accelerates as desired, open 
the graph editor and see graph representation of its motion is in world space, 
ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, but also on x and Y. Obviously 
editing these curves  manually will easily lead to having the object not flying 
in a straight line...

In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more 
cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would really 
prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in the Graph 
Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar functionality many 
times through different Maya versions, so far without luck, so she can not 
offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on the part of the Maya devs.

Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of 
functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer advice 
regarding how to achieve something similar?

Thanks (sigh)

Morten
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