FIRE PUMP: Urgent
Dear all.. We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30 story builing. The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is located in the basement floor and is barricaded . The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start. Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no automatic shutoff . *The scenario they are considering is *. Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get damaged.? I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people. *Can we provide automatic shuttoff for the diesel pump. Is it acceptable as per NFPA?* Is there anyother options available or anything from NFPA to support that we dont need automatic shutoff? Please give your valuable inputs. Sam ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: FIRE PUMP: Urgent
Since your pump is not listed, you don't comply with NFPA 20 so why does it matter if the standard allows an automatic shut off? For your use, the 2010 edition of NFPA states the following: 12.7.2.6 Sole Supply Pumps. 12.7.2.6.1 Shutdown shall be accomplished by manual or automatic means. 12.7.2.6.2 Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted where the pump constitutes the sole source of supply of a fire sprinkler or standpipe system or where the authority having jurisdiction has required manual shutdown. Regardless of the pump listing or other compliance issues, the answer lies solely with the permission of the local AHJ. Important Notice: As a member of the NFPA 13 Installation NFPA 25 Committee's, this correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or services. Bob Caputo -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: FIRE PUMP: Urgent Dear all.. We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30 story builing. The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is located in the basement floor and is barricaded . The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start. Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no automatic shutoff . *The scenario they are considering is *. Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get damaged.? I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people. *Can we provide automatic shuttoff for the diesel pump. Is it acceptable as per NFPA?* Is there anyother options available or anything from NFPA to support that we dont need automatic shutoff? Please give your valuable inputs. Sam ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: FIRE PUMP: Urgent
Thaanx bob I just went through the same now. But If am not providing an automatic shutoff facility,how can I avoid any damage to the pump in case of mentioned scenario From the pump supplier I cant expect anything .so from our side what we can do to make it more safe.? any thoughts? Regards Sam On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Bob Caputo bcap...@cox.net wrote: Since your pump is not listed, you don't comply with NFPA 20 so why does it matter if the standard allows an automatic shut off? For your use, the 2010 edition of NFPA states the following: 12.7.2.6 Sole Supply Pumps. 12.7.2.6.1 Shutdown shall be accomplished by manual or automatic means. 12.7.2.6.2 Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted where the pump constitutes the sole source of supply of a fire sprinkler or standpipe system or where the authority having jurisdiction has required manual shutdown. Regardless of the pump listing or other compliance issues, the answer lies solely with the permission of the local AHJ. Important Notice: As a member of the NFPA 13 Installation NFPA 25 Committee's, this correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or services. Bob Caputo -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: FIRE PUMP: Urgent Dear all.. We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30 story builing. The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is located in the basement floor and is barricaded . The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start. Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no automatic shutoff . *The scenario they are considering is *. Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get damaged.? I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people. *Can we provide automatic shuttoff for the diesel pump. Is it acceptable as per NFPA?* Is there anyother options available or anything from NFPA to support that we dont need automatic shutoff? Please give your valuable inputs. Sam ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: FIRE PUMP: Urgent
While pumps are intended to start automatically (on a pressure drop) it is intended that upon receipt of alarm indicating the pump is running, a qualified person will be dispatched to the pump room to monitor conditions and provide shut down after 30 minutes if the pump isn't actually needed. This is especially true of electric motor drive pumps because it's not good for the motor to start and stop without allowing it to run at least 10 minutes. Even your temporary water supply pump should have a running alarm to some central station, job shack or similar but again, non-listed pumps are not the subject of NFPA 20 so do whatever your local AHJ requires insert stand disclaimer here bc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: FIRE PUMP: Urgent Thaanx bob I just went through the same now. But If am not providing an automatic shutoff facility,how can I avoid any damage to the pump in case of mentioned scenario From the pump supplier I cant expect anything .so from our side what we can do to make it more safe.? any thoughts? Regards Sam On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Bob Caputo bcap...@cox.net wrote: Since your pump is not listed, you don't comply with NFPA 20 so why does it matter if the standard allows an automatic shut off? For your use, the 2010 edition of NFPA states the following: 12.7.2.6 Sole Supply Pumps. 12.7.2.6.1 Shutdown shall be accomplished by manual or automatic means. 12.7.2.6.2 Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted where the pump constitutes the sole source of supply of a fire sprinkler or standpipe system or where the authority having jurisdiction has required manual shutdown. Regardless of the pump listing or other compliance issues, the answer lies solely with the permission of the local AHJ. Important Notice: As a member of the NFPA 13 Installation NFPA 25 Committee's, this correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or services. Bob Caputo -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: FIRE PUMP: Urgent Dear all.. We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30 story builing. The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is located in the basement floor and is barricaded . The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start. Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no automatic shutoff . *The scenario they are considering is *. Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get damaged.? I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people. *Can we provide automatic shuttoff for the diesel pump. Is it acceptable as per NFPA?* Is there anyother options available or anything from NFPA to support that we dont need automatic shutoff? Please give your valuable inputs. Sam ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire sprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire sprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject
RE: OHIII
If it was Tuesday, it must have been Belgium. Wouldn't have missed Copenhagen, Hartford is nice, but... Sorry to all ya walking in Monday am to have to delete delete delete Well past beer thirty here, time to go -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 8:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: OHIII Marioff was bought by UTC and is now an American company. United Technologies Corporation TypePublic (NYSE: UTX) IndustryConglomerates Founded 1929 HeadquartersHartford, Connecticut, USA Key people Louis R. Chênevert, Chairman CEO ProductsConglomerates Revenue ▲ $59.8 billion USD (2008) Net income ▲ $4.7 billion USD (2008) Employees 223,100 (2008) Website utc.com On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:38 PM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Amen- Wonder if we'll have wireless heads in the future. Seriously- MIST. Say it like plastics in the Graduate (if you don't know the movie, you're not an old-timer, Mrs Robinson). Imagine if we could do mist with small diameter pipe (1/2?), 5 GPM flow, once they get a nozzle/detector combo that looks acceptably esthetic, and water damage will be minimized. In all seriousness, I believe that's the wave of the future. Maybe Mist and nitrogen (uh-oh, patent infringement) as a 1-2 punch. Other than an excuse to go to Europe when we had money, we went to International fire spkr assoc conference to see what MIST stuff we could learn. Marioff showed video of fire tests they ran in typical office scenario, light hazard where we'd have installed a .1/900 with recessed heads, and their mist controlled the fire nicely. So its on the way, and they seem to be a decade ahead of us over there (Kudos, Stewart and Alan!). Also in wide-spread use shipboard. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: OHIII
Sometimes a bit of recreational banter is a nice deviation from the normal battles we face every day. Just make sure to mention the title subject in the reply somewhere to keep it official and all will be well. ;) Although I will say that the most recent discourse has revealed some who have spent way too much time inhaling fumes from the pipe dope or pvc cleaners. But that was probably from installing so many OHIII systems. Now back to our regularly scheduled program... Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:35 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: OHIII If it was Tuesday, it must have been Belgium. Wouldn't have missed Copenhagen, Hartford is nice, but... Sorry to all ya walking in Monday am to have to delete delete delete Well past beer thirty here, time to go -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 8:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: OHIII Marioff was bought by UTC and is now an American company. United Technologies Corporation TypePublic (NYSE: UTX) IndustryConglomerates Founded 1929 HeadquartersHartford, Connecticut, USA Key people Louis R. Chênevert, Chairman CEO ProductsConglomerates Revenue ▲ $59.8 billion USD (2008) Net income ▲ $4.7 billion USD (2008) Employees 223,100 (2008) Website utc.com On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 4:38 PM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote: Amen- Wonder if we'll have wireless heads in the future. Seriously- MIST. Say it like plastics in the Graduate (if you don't know the movie, you're not an old-timer, Mrs Robinson). Imagine if we could do mist with small diameter pipe (1/2?), 5 GPM flow, once they get a nozzle/detector combo that looks acceptably esthetic, and water damage will be minimized. In all seriousness, I believe that's the wave of the future. Maybe Mist and nitrogen (uh-oh, patent infringement) as a 1-2 punch. Other than an excuse to go to Europe when we had money, we went to International fire spkr assoc conference to see what MIST stuff we could learn. Marioff showed video of fire tests they ran in typical office scenario, light hazard where we'd have installed a .1/900 with recessed heads, and their mist controlled the fire nicely. So its on the way, and they seem to be a decade ahead of us over there (Kudos, Stewart and Alan!). Also in wide-spread use shipboard. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Victaulic CPVC
Anybody know off hand what year Vic stopped making Firelock CPVC pipe and why? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: FIRE PUMP: Urgent
Sam, I don't mean to be a smart ass but follow along. You have a special circumstance you're trying to mitigate against. Your route is to automatically do something that is typically disallowed without special dispensation. His greatness, the Dead One has suggested a different tack which is essentially Biblical in scope: Render unto NFPA what is NFPA's and unto the problem that which is the Problem's. If you owned an airline the planes will have seats for pilot and co-pilot. There is an expectation on the part of the manufacturer, the regulator, and, unconsciously, the customer that both seats will be filled. You don't get to put crash test dummies in the seats, or some other alternative, because you don't have a real pilot. You find another solution. If you're required to have manual shut-down, and there's a fear of inadvertent start-up leading to continuous run until the pump self destructs then the OWNER will need to assure that a qualified person is on site that can monitor and operate the pump, or that, as Bob suggests, a pump run notification device be attached (you'll also need a trained person on site that knows what that means and has a procedure to deal with it: call the service company, shut it down properly, whatever he's trained to do), or some other procedure that allows the pump to run the required time and is then manually shut down. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 6:19 AM, Bob Caputo bcap...@cox.net wrote: While pumps are intended to start automatically (on a pressure drop) it is intended that upon receipt of alarm indicating the pump is running, a qualified person will be dispatched to the pump room to monitor conditions and provide shut down after 30 minutes if the pump isn't actually needed. This is especially true of electric motor drive pumps because it's not good for the motor to start and stop without allowing it to run at least 10 minutes. Even your temporary water supply pump should have a running alarm to some central station, job shack or similar but again, non-listed pumps are not the subject of NFPA 20 so do whatever your local AHJ requires insert stand disclaimer here bc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 12:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: FIRE PUMP: Urgent Thaanx bob I just went through the same now. But If am not providing an automatic shutoff facility,how can I avoid any damage to the pump in case of mentioned scenario From the pump supplier I cant expect anything .so from our side what we can do to make it more safe.? any thoughts? Regards Sam On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Bob Caputo bcap...@cox.net wrote: Since your pump is not listed, you don't comply with NFPA 20 so why does it matter if the standard allows an automatic shut off? For your use, the 2010 edition of NFPA states the following: 12.7.2.6 Sole Supply Pumps. 12.7.2.6.1 Shutdown shall be accomplished by manual or automatic means. 12.7.2.6.2 Automatic shutdown shall not be permitted where the pump constitutes the sole source of supply of a fire sprinkler or standpipe system or where the authority having jurisdiction has required manual shutdown. Regardless of the pump listing or other compliance issues, the answer lies solely with the permission of the local AHJ. Important Notice: As a member of the NFPA 13 Installation NFPA 25 Committee's, this correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide consultation or services. Bob Caputo -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: FIRE PUMP: Urgent Dear all.. We are in the process of installing *temporary fire protection* for a 30 story builing. The pump installed is a *single diesel engine pump* (Not listed) for the supplying water for the landing valves in each floor.The fire pump is located in the basement floor and is barricaded . The operation of the fire pump will be such that In case of pressure drop due to opening of the hosereeel or landing valves the pump will start. Now during the inspection from Client,they asked us why there is no automatic shutoff . *The scenario they are considering is *. Suppose some labour accidentally opens the hosreel for anypurpose,the pump will start running and if there is noone to stop the pump ,will it get damaged.? I suggested we could provide a fire alarm bell for alerting the people.
Steam for Fire Suppression
I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
You have no standard to go by for this and no design criteria to apply. There are so many variables to deal with here since steam comes in so many different compositions depending on application rates and temperatures, how far from the boiler will the steam have to travel to the hazard, what is the temperature and pressure at the delivery point, condensation rate, etc., etc., etc... Steam is nowhere near the same as water mist. If he insists on this approach then he needs to hire a qualified ME/FPE to do the analysis and make the application rate determinations based on the condition of the steam and the hazard. Then try to sell it as an alternative to the AHJ. This is like stepping into a snake pit. BEWARE and AVOID at all cost. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
Matt, That is possible. I am getting information second hand so I am really in the dark thus far. Just looking for any background knowledge that is out there on using steam for fire suppression. I've requested more information and will post more when I get it. Thanks. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:20 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
Steam would probably have an impact on the fire plume, but since it is lighter than air, it will buoy to the roof and not get to the product below. It would likely require some low-level discharge to actually have any effect. A guess would be the Navy may have done some research on this at some point. I'd go along with Craig's advice and avoid. Tell the guy to call you back and let you know how it worked out. At 11:28 AM 4/12/2010, you wrote: Matt, That is possible. I am getting information second hand so I am really in the dark thus far. Just looking for any background knowledge that is out there on using steam for fire suppression. I've requested more information and will post more when I get it. Thanks. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:20 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
For reasons of Temp. only this space would have to be an un-occupiable space or the fire protection system could kill the occupants. Depending upon what temp. and pressure (They're related) steam he's talking about, the temp of the space will be very high. 10PSI steam is 239'F 100PSI steam is 338'F and 200PSI steam is 388'F. When you go above 15 Psi it's med. Pressure steam, and if I remember right over 250PSI is high pressure steam In any case any of these exceed the ability of the human body to survive in a space with this type of temp/pres. Sounds like a good way to spend Decades in Court. One of the great beauties of using water is its ability to convert/absorb so many btu's when it changes to steam. If your using steam there is no ability to absorb BTU's, only to displace the Ox. (There's probably a good reason that you don't see Steam duct suppression systems any more.) Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
FM Global has several areas that use steam as a suppressing agent. These include Data Sheet 6-23, Recovery Boiler, for protection of direct contact evaporators, and 7-73 Dust collection. There are several places in Data Sheet 7-3 where steam is also used for fire suppression. Many old textile mills used steam as a suppressing agent, reference to Data Sheet 7-1. Dale Eggen, PE Bechtel National -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Steam would probably have an impact on the fire plume, but since it is lighter than air, it will buoy to the roof and not get to the product below. It would likely require some low-level discharge to actually have any effect. A guess would be the Navy may have done some research on this at some point. I'd go along with Craig's advice and avoid. Tell the guy to call you back and let you know how it worked out. At 11:28 AM 4/12/2010, you wrote: Matt, That is possible. I am getting information second hand so I am really in the dark thus far. Just looking for any background knowledge that is out there on using steam for fire suppression. I've requested more information and will post more when I get it. Thanks. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:20 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
Years ago I seem to recall there was something in the annex of one of the standards that spoke a little about steam. Might have only been one paragraph. If I had to look it up I'd be looking in NFPA 2001, the CO2 standard, maybe 15? It was more popular in the 40's and 50's. If you can find an NFPA handbook from that era might give you something. I'd bet the Navy has/had experience with this. But as Craig said don't expect to find a standard to go by. There was one in St. Paul that protected an asphalt shingle line and it worked very well by all accounts. It was older than anyone working in the plant or on the FD so I don't have particulars and they are out of business now. Steam works by O2 displacement. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. But steam by itself is rather dangerous. It's certainly better than plain water in an oven or other hot environment and blowing things up when the water turns to steam. But you lose the heat absorption of water to steam like in mist and regular for sprinklers. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Matt, That is possible. I am getting information second hand so I am really in the dark thus far. Just looking for any background knowledge that is out there on using steam for fire suppression. I've requested more information and will post more when I get it. Thanks. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:20 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Re: Steam for Fire Suppression
Steam has been used for firefighting aboard ship, particularly in engine rooms. I have had no experience with it, but you can get some info on the Internet at Steam Fire Suppression. Ed Vining On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Reed Roisum reed.roi...@ulteig.com wrote: I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ed Vining 4819 John Muir Rd Martinez CA 94553 925-228-8792 Cell 787-0465 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
True but these were usually in equipment spaces or ductwork and typically it's in the past tense as in it's not at the lead of the list of suppression agents for today's applications. FMDS 7-1 dealing with textile plants even has a statement about steam not being considered the primary means of protection. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Eggen, Clarence (Dale) Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression FM Global has several areas that use steam as a suppressing agent. These include Data Sheet 6-23, Recovery Boiler, for protection of direct contact evaporators, and 7-73 Dust collection. There are several places in Data Sheet 7-3 where steam is also used for fire suppression. Many old textile mills used steam as a suppressing agent, reference to Data Sheet 7-1. Dale Eggen, PE Bechtel National -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Steam would probably have an impact on the fire plume, but since it is lighter than air, it will buoy to the roof and not get to the product below. It would likely require some low-level discharge to actually have any effect. A guess would be the Navy may have done some research on this at some point. I'd go along with Craig's advice and avoid. Tell the guy to call you back and let you know how it worked out. At 11:28 AM 4/12/2010, you wrote: Matt, That is possible. I am getting information second hand so I am really in the dark thus far. Just looking for any background knowledge that is out there on using steam for fire suppression. I've requested more information and will post more when I get it. Thanks. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:20 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
I reviewed our contract with the Sprinklerfitters Union and they have language that they do not perform work on steam systems. So, if the installing contractor is union, they will need to hire steamfitters to install the steam suppression system...which may affect the labor cost of installation. Also, some states license steam fitters so even if the installing contractor is open shop it would affect labor cost of install. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Steam would probably have an impact on the fire plume, but since it is lighter than air, it will buoy to the roof and not get to the product below. It would likely require some low-level discharge to actually have any effect. A guess would be the Navy may have done some research on this at some point. I'd go along with Craig's advice and avoid. Tell the guy to call you back and let you know how it worked out. At 11:28 AM 4/12/2010, you wrote: Matt, That is possible. I am getting information second hand so I am really in the dark thus far. Just looking for any background knowledge that is out there on using steam for fire suppression. I've requested more information and will post more when I get it. Thanks. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Direct: (701)280-8580 Cell: (701)212-8810 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:20 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Steam for Fire Suppression Is he wanting to use a steam powered fire pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Steam for Fire Suppression
Steam has been used in the past for suppression of coal crusher fires in coal fired power plants. I'm not aware of a standard for this type design, that's why they call it SPECIAL HAZARDS. Where are the old Grinnell guys when you need them? Mark at Aero -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Steam for Fire Suppression I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Jerry Pepi Has Passed
I just received news that Jerry Pepi passed away this morning. Someone mention Old Grinnell Guys in a message earlier. . . well Jerry was one of the best. Mike Cabral ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Steam for Fire Suppression
As an engineering student, I worked at a hardboard mill in auckland. The hardboard presses had steam fire suppression systems. They were employed on a fairly regular basis. The mill itself was sprinkler protected to FM standards. Loved it when the sprinklers were called into action, as there was plenty of overtime on offer. Regards Chris Mak Aon Sprinkler Certification Via Blackberry Cell +64-274-344-058 - Original Message - From: Ed Vining [edvinin...@gmail.com] Sent: 12/04/2010 08:55 AM MST To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Steam for Fire Suppression Steam has been used for firefighting aboard ship, particularly in engine rooms. I have had no experience with it, but you can get some info on the Internet at Steam Fire Suppression. Ed Vining On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Reed Roisum reed.roi...@ulteig.com wrote: I don't have much information on this yet but here goes anyway... An owner of a manufacturing facility (I don't know what type of manufacturing) has in his head that he wants to use steam from his boiler for fire suppression (also don't know what he wants to protect). I am basically looking for any information on using steam for fire suppression. I have no experience with this and haven't heard of it beyond steam smothering systems for kitchen exhaust ducts?? Is that still used? I am somewhat familiar with water mist systems but this sounds like a different animal because we would be delivering steam to a fire not forming steam when water droplets turn to steam at the fire. Doesn't seem practical or even possible to me. Sorry for the lack of information but that is all I have to share. Thank you for any info. you have. Reed A. Roisum, CET Engineering Technician Ulteig Engineers, Inc. Building Services - Fire Protection Engineering 3350 38th Ave. S. * Fargo, ND 58104 Direct: (701)280-8580 | Cell: (701)212-8810 www.ulteig.com Energy * Water * Built-Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.orgto%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ed Vining 4819 John Muir Rd Martinez CA 94553 925-228-8792 Cell 787-0465 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Chris Mak | Aon New Zealand Sprinkler Certification Manager Level 1, 4 Fred Thomas Drive, PO Box33-1240 Takapuna t: +64 9 486 9761 | f: +64 9 486 0112 | m: 027 434 4058 e: chris@aon.co.nz | w: aon.co.nz Please consider the environment before printing this email. This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, our company disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. The Unsolicited Electronic Message Act 2007 (The Spam Act) came into effect from 5 September 2007. As a valued client you may receive communications from us from time to time, including electronic publications, invitations and related information. Please advise if you wish us to stop sending these communications to you. Otherwise we will assume you wish to continue receiving these communications from us. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this e-mail message is strictly prohibited. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Victaulic CPVC
I'm anxious to read the why responses. J. Scott Mitchell, P.E. --- On Mon, 4/12/10, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: From: Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com Subject: Victaulic CPVC To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Monday, April 12, 2010, 9:11 AM Anybody know off hand what year Vic stopped making Firelock CPVC pipe and why? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Victaulic CPVC
I spoke to someone today from Vic. Apparently they sold their CPVC line to Spears a few years ago. At 06:56 PM 4/12/2010, you wrote: I'm anxious to read the why responses. J. Scott Mitchell, P.E. --- On Mon, 4/12/10, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: From: Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com Subject: Victaulic CPVC To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Monday, April 12, 2010, 9:11 AM Anybody know off hand what year Vic stopped making Firelock CPVC pipe and why? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Pipe Wrapping
I thought I once saw something saying that sprinkler pipe cant be wrapped with pipe insulation. Am I dreaming or does this code exist? I cant locate it. J. Blocker EFPS (303) 353-9712 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pipe Wrapping
I believe you were dreaming. John John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated 5113 Berwyn Road College Park, Maryland 20740 Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pipe Wrapping I thought I once saw something saying that sprinkler pipe cant be wrapped with pipe insulation. Am I dreaming or does this code exist? I cant locate it. J. Blocker EFPS (303) 353-9712 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
