RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[Tom Duross via Sprinklerforum]

Agreed Rod.

Yes, the 5000’s seem to have made the relatively easy Elkhart even easier.  
Glad they got away from the 1 1/16” deep socket.  I do  fair amount of 5-year 
PRV’s and find about 50% needing adjustment so I can relate to FD frustration.  
Also a fair % that fail due to lack of annual flowing in addition to 5 year.  
They cannot be fixed either and be careful when opening them up, those springs 
are as big as a 1 ton truck.  I’ve cut a few down the middle just to see the 
corrosion.

 

I’ve been offering placards for FDC’s with required  flow and pressure to meet 
design demand but many FD’s want pumper pressure and really only pumper 
pressure.  It gets a little sticky for NH FDC’s when assuming lengths and 
quantities of discharge but I think it at least gives them a starting point.  
Some are pre-1999.

 

TD

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Rod DiBona via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 1:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Rod DiBona ; Travis Mack ; Tom 
Wellen ; John Denhardt ; 
Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

 

Great information Steve. Glad it got shared to the forum even if by accident! 

 

 

Rod DiBona

Chief Operating Officer

Rapid Fire Protection, Inc

1530 Samco Road

Rapid City, SD 57702

Office-605-348-2342

Cell- 605-391-3553

www.rapidfireinc.com   

 



 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Steve 
Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:12 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 
Cc: Steve Leyton mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com> >; Travis Mack mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; John Denhardt mailto:jdenha...@stricklandfire.com> >; Tom Wellen mailto:tgwel...@gmail.com> >
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

 

PS:

I didn’t notice that this was going out to the forum – thought I was chatting 
with Tom, Travis and John.   The substance of the preceding email  is my 
opinion only.

 

Steve

  

From: Steve Leyton 
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 10:10 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

 

I recently attended HROC (High Rise Operations Conference) in Pensacola on the 
invitation of two NFPA 14 committee members who are active fire service.   It’s 
a fire service-only event and I was the only civilian in attendance – to say 
that I learned a lot is a great understatement as it was possibly the most 
informative professional event I’ve ever attended.  Also, I got an earful from 
firefighters, captains and chiefs who regularly use standpipes in mid- and 
high-rise buildings.

 

The information in that card is VERY important to the engineer on the first due 
pumper.  In fact, based on hearing about this from at least 8 or 9 different 
attendees at HROC, I’m going to introduce a committee input that would require 
that the inlet and outlet flow and pressure metrics be permanently labeled at 
each hose connection equipped with a pressure reducer.(On a side note, 
there is so much energy AGAINST factory-set PRV hose valves, you can’t imagine. 
  Down to the last man and woman, firefighters want infinitely adjustable PRVs 
such as the Elkhart URFA and the new Zurn 5000 series.) Placing the basis 
of design on the documents is the first step and it enables enforcing the 
placement of the required signage at the inlet(s) and this information can 
literally shorten time-to-water by as much as 6-7 minutes by allowing the 
engineer to start pumping much closer to the target at the tip, regardless of 
whether the system has PRVs or not.

 

I also agree with JD that format isn’t critical.

 

SML

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 8:34 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

 

Agree.  We show the information NFPA 14 requires.  Format is not critical but 
the information must be shown. 

 

Thanks,

John

 

John August Denhardt, P.E.

Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated

4011 Penn Belt Place

Forestville, Maryland 20747-4737

301.474.1136 - Office

301.343.1457 - Mobile

 

From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Travis 
Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
 
Cc: Travis Mack mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; Tom Wellen 
mailto:tgwel...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: SprinkCAD Standpipe 

RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[Rod DiBona via Sprinklerforum]

Great information Steve. Glad it got shared to the forum even if by accident!


Rod DiBona
Chief Operating Officer
Rapid Fire Protection, Inc
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605-348-2342
Cell- 605-391-3553
www.rapidfireinc.com

[cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00][cid:image003.jpg@01D5A509.4EB6CFF0]



From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:12 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Travis Mack 
; John Denhardt ; Tom Wellen 

Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

PS:

I didn’t notice that this was going out to the forum – thought I was chatting 
with Tom, Travis and John.   The substance of the preceding email  is my 
opinion only.

Steve

From: Steve Leyton
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 10:10 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

I recently attended HROC (High Rise Operations Conference) in Pensacola on the 
invitation of two NFPA 14 committee members who are active fire service.   It’s 
a fire service-only event and I was the only civilian in attendance – to say 
that I learned a lot is a great understatement as it was possibly the most 
informative professional event I’ve ever attended.  Also, I got an earful from 
firefighters, captains and chiefs who regularly use standpipes in mid- and 
high-rise buildings.

The information in that card is VERY important to the engineer on the first due 
pumper.  In fact, based on hearing about this from at least 8 or 9 different 
attendees at HROC, I’m going to introduce a committee input that would require 
that the inlet and outlet flow and pressure metrics be permanently labeled at 
each hose connection equipped with a pressure reducer.(On a side note, 
there is so much energy AGAINST factory-set PRV hose valves, you can’t imagine. 
  Down to the last man and woman, firefighters want infinitely adjustable PRVs 
such as the Elkhart URFA and the new Zurn 5000 series.) Placing the basis 
of design on the documents is the first step and it enables enforcing the 
placement of the required signage at the inlet(s) and this information can 
literally shorten time-to-water by as much as 6-7 minutes by allowing the 
engineer to start pumping much closer to the target at the tip, regardless of 
whether the system has PRVs or not.

I also agree with JD that format isn’t critical.

SML

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 8:34 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

Agree.  We show the information NFPA 14 requires.  Format is not critical but 
the information must be shown.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
4011 Penn Belt Place
Forestville, Maryland 20747-4737
301.474.1136 - Office
301.343.1457 - Mobile

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:31 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Travis Mack mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; Tom Wellen 
mailto:tgwel...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

We always show that exact sign indicated in A6.8 on the plans.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271 x700
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 2, 2020, at 9:25 AM, Tom Wellen via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:

I requested that standpipe design information from calculations be provided on 
the plans per 6.8 and Figure A.6.8 of NFPA 14.

The contractor indicated that SprinkCAD provide a standardized hydraulic 
result. That seems like a lame response. I'm sure another format or even text 
information could be provided rather than using NFPA 13's Hydraulic Calculation 
results for the design area.

What do you provide the required information from 6.8?


Tom Wellen
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RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

PS:

I didn’t notice that this was going out to the forum – thought I was chatting 
with Tom, Travis and John.   The substance of the preceding email  is my 
opinion only.

Steve

From: Steve Leyton
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 10:10 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

I recently attended HROC (High Rise Operations Conference) in Pensacola on the 
invitation of two NFPA 14 committee members who are active fire service.   It’s 
a fire service-only event and I was the only civilian in attendance – to say 
that I learned a lot is a great understatement as it was possibly the most 
informative professional event I’ve ever attended.  Also, I got an earful from 
firefighters, captains and chiefs who regularly use standpipes in mid- and 
high-rise buildings.

The information in that card is VERY important to the engineer on the first due 
pumper.  In fact, based on hearing about this from at least 8 or 9 different 
attendees at HROC, I’m going to introduce a committee input that would require 
that the inlet and outlet flow and pressure metrics be permanently labeled at 
each hose connection equipped with a pressure reducer.(On a side note, 
there is so much energy AGAINST factory-set PRV hose valves, you can’t imagine. 
  Down to the last man and woman, firefighters want infinitely adjustable PRVs 
such as the Elkhart URFA and the new Zurn 5000 series.) Placing the basis 
of design on the documents is the first step and it enables enforcing the 
placement of the required signage at the inlet(s) and this information can 
literally shorten time-to-water by as much as 6-7 minutes by allowing the 
engineer to start pumping much closer to the target at the tip, regardless of 
whether the system has PRVs or not.

I also agree with JD that format isn’t critical.

SML

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 8:34 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

Agree.  We show the information NFPA 14 requires.  Format is not critical but 
the information must be shown.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
4011 Penn Belt Place
Forestville, Maryland 20747-4737
301.474.1136 - Office
301.343.1457 - Mobile

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Travis Mack ; Tom Wellen 
Subject: Re: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

We always show that exact sign indicated in A6.8 on the plans.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271 x700
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 2, 2020, at 9:25 AM, Tom Wellen via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:

I requested that standpipe design information from calculations be provided on 
the plans per 6.8 and Figure A.6.8 of NFPA 14.

The contractor indicated that SprinkCAD provide a standardized hydraulic 
result. That seems like a lame response. I'm sure another format or even text 
information could be provided rather than using NFPA 13's Hydraulic Calculation 
results for the design area.

What do you provide the required information from 6.8?


Tom Wellen
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RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

I recently attended HROC (High Rise Operations Conference) in Pensacola on the 
invitation of two NFPA 14 committee members who are active fire service.   It’s 
a fire service-only event and I was the only civilian in attendance – to say 
that I learned a lot is a great understatement as it was possibly the most 
informative professional event I’ve ever attended.  Also, I got an earful from 
firefighters, captains and chiefs who regularly use standpipes in mid- and 
high-rise buildings.

The information in that card is VERY important to the engineer on the first due 
pumper.  In fact, based on hearing about this from at least 8 or 9 different 
attendees at HROC, I’m going to introduce a committee input that would require 
that the inlet and outlet flow and pressure metrics be permanently labeled at 
each hose connection equipped with a pressure reducer.(On a side note, 
there is so much energy AGAINST factory-set PRV hose valves, you can’t imagine. 
  Down to the last man and woman, firefighters want infinitely adjustable PRVs 
such as the Elkhart URFA and the new Zurn 5000 series.) Placing the basis 
of design on the documents is the first step and it enables enforcing the 
placement of the required signage at the inlet(s) and this information can 
literally shorten time-to-water by as much as 6-7 minutes by allowing the 
engineer to start pumping much closer to the target at the tip, regardless of 
whether the system has PRVs or not.

I also agree with JD that format isn’t critical.

SML

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2020 8:34 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt; Travis Mack; Tom Wellen
Subject: RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

Agree.  We show the information NFPA 14 requires.  Format is not critical but 
the information must be shown.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
4011 Penn Belt Place
Forestville, Maryland 20747-4737
301.474.1136 - Office
301.343.1457 - Mobile

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Travis Mack ; Tom Wellen 
Subject: Re: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

We always show that exact sign indicated in A6.8 on the plans.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271 x700
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 2, 2020, at 9:25 AM, Tom Wellen via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:

I requested that standpipe design information from calculations be provided on 
the plans per 6.8 and Figure A.6.8 of NFPA 14.

The contractor indicated that SprinkCAD provide a standardized hydraulic 
result. That seems like a lame response. I'm sure another format or even text 
information could be provided rather than using NFPA 13's Hydraulic Calculation 
results for the design area.

What do you provide the required information from 6.8?


Tom Wellen
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RE: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum]

Agree.  We show the information NFPA 14 requires.  Format is not critical but 
the information must be shown.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated
4011 Penn Belt Place
Forestville, Maryland 20747-4737
301.474.1136 - Office
301.343.1457 - Mobile

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 11:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Travis Mack ; Tom Wellen 
Subject: Re: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

We always show that exact sign indicated in A6.8 on the plans.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271 x700
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 2, 2020, at 9:25 AM, Tom Wellen via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:

I requested that standpipe design information from calculations be provided on 
the plans per 6.8 and Figure A.6.8 of NFPA 14.

The contractor indicated that SprinkCAD provide a standardized hydraulic 
result. That seems like a lame response. I'm sure another format or even text 
information could be provided rather than using NFPA 13's Hydraulic Calculation 
results for the design area.

What do you provide the required information from 6.8?


Tom Wellen
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Re: SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum]

We always show that exact sign indicated in A6.8 on the plans. 

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271 x700
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2020, at 9:25 AM, Tom Wellen via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I requested that standpipe design information from calculations be provided 
> on the plans per 6.8 and Figure A.6.8 of NFPA 14.
> 
> The contractor indicated that SprinkCAD provide a standardized hydraulic 
> result. That seems like a lame response. I'm sure another format or even text 
> information could be provided rather than using NFPA 13's Hydraulic 
> Calculation results for the design area.
> 
> What do you provide the required information from 6.8?
> 
> 
> Tom Wellen
> ___
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SprinkCAD Standpipe Calculation Results on Installation Plans

[Tom Wellen via Sprinklerforum]

I requested that standpipe design information from calculations be provided
on the plans per 6.8 and Figure A.6.8 of NFPA 14.

The contractor indicated that SprinkCAD provide a standardized hydraulic
result. That seems like a lame response. I'm sure another format or even
text information could be provided rather than using NFPA 13's Hydraulic
Calculation results for the design area.

What do you provide the required information from 6.8?


Tom Wellen
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RE: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

If (and that's a significant if) the structural engineer of record and 
manufacturer of the building approve connection to the bottom flanges of the 
purlins for 6 inch pipe, you'll have to spread the load across multiple 
members. Over the past seven or eight years, we have found success hanging to 
pre-engineered building components and unreinforced steel decks by using 
Unistrut with anchorage in three or more purlins or deck flutes, but I'm not 
sure we've ever done it with 6".



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)




 Original message 
From: James Litvak via Sprinklerforum 
Date: 1/2/20 5:37 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: James Litvak 
Subject: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[James Litvak via Sprinklerforum]

I didn't know of the bevel washer. That will be handy in the future. Thank
you.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 10:35 AM Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Assuming you have done your homework regarding whether and at what hanger
> spacing the structure can support the weight of the water-filled pipe in
> accordance with NFPA 13; in my experience, one still cannot hang from the
> bottom lip of exposed Z-purlins and must instead hang with something like a
> Cooper B-Line #51 side beam bracket from the center 1/3 of the purlin spine
> with ½” nut, bolt, and washers to not void the listing of the support
> structure itself.  From the side beam bracket, a ½” rod hanging down with a
> nut and Figure B3234 bevel washer oriented such that the rod can hang
> straight down *without* lateral loading or bending since it is axially
> loaded vertically in the direction of gravity thus complying with NFPA 13
> (2019) Section 17.2.1.6 along with handbook commentary:
>
>
>
> *Threaded Sections of Rods.** Threaded sections of rods shall not be
> formed or bent.*
>
> *The requirement in 17.2.1.6 also applies to the rod once it is installed.
> Cracks can result if the rod is arranged with a lateral load applied to it.
> In other words, the rod must be axially loaded once it is connected between
> the building structure and the system pipe. Hanger attachments are
> available that are listed for attaching to the building structure and that
> can accommodate angles from vertical, allowing the rod to remain unbent.*
>
>
>
> I have seen many installations whose structural connections do not allow
> purely axial loading in the rod hangers and induce lateral loads in
> violation of this standard section.
>
>
>
> Don’t forget that ultimately, the structural member manufacturer (Butler
> in this case) must be consulted for allowable connection location means and
> methods regarding drilling of their engineered structural members.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>
> *Ryan L. Hinson**, PE*, SET***  \  Burns & McDonnell
>
> Senior Fire Protection Engineer
>
> *O* 952-656-3662 \  *M* 320-250-5404  \  *F* 952-229-2923
>
> rhin...@burnsmcd.com  \  burnsmcd.com 
>
> 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300  \  Bloomington, MN 55437
>
> *Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
>
> **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum  *On
> Behalf Of *James Litvak via Sprinklerforum
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:37 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Cc:* James Litvak 
> *Subject:* Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof
>
>
>
> I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but
> having trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building
> with Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and
> parallel to the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and
> the slope is way too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have
> been able to find is welded linked eye rods from Tolco (
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf
> ).
> However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad
> idea to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the
> linked eye rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would
> create its own difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to
> hang in this situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope,
> but I figure whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope
> will also work for trapeze hangers.
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>
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RE: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum]

Assuming you have done your homework regarding whether and at what hanger 
spacing the structure can support the weight of the water-filled pipe in 
accordance with NFPA 13; in my experience, one still cannot hang from the 
bottom lip of exposed Z-purlins and must instead hang with something like a 
Cooper B-Line #51 side beam bracket from the center 1/3 of the purlin spine 
with ½” nut, bolt, and washers to not void the listing of the support structure 
itself.  From the side beam bracket, a ½” rod hanging down with a nut and 
Figure B3234 bevel washer oriented such that the rod can hang straight down 
without lateral loading or bending since it is axially loaded vertically in the 
direction of gravity thus complying with NFPA 13 (2019) Section 17.2.1.6 along 
with handbook commentary:

Threaded Sections of Rods. Threaded sections of rods shall not be formed or 
bent.
The requirement in 17.2.1.6 also applies to the rod once it is installed. 
Cracks can result if the rod is arranged with a lateral load applied to it. In 
other words, the rod must be axially loaded once it is connected between the 
building structure and the system pipe. Hanger attachments are available that 
are listed for attaching to the building structure and that can accommodate 
angles from vertical, allowing the rod to remain unbent.

I have seen many installations whose structural connections do not allow purely 
axial loading in the rod hangers and induce lateral loads in violation of this 
standard section.

Don’t forget that ultimately, the structural member manufacturer (Butler in 
this case) must be consulted for allowable connection location means and 
methods regarding drilling of their engineered structural members.

Good luck!

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET**  \  Burns & McDonnell
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
O 952-656-3662 \  M 320-250-5404  \  F 952-229-2923
rhin...@burnsmcd.com  \  
burnsmcd.com
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300  \  Bloomington, MN 55437
*Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:37 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: James Litvak 
Subject: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[James Litvak via Sprinklerforum]

1/2" is UL203 listed. The cut sheet makes it seem like only the 3/8" is
listed, but that applies to UL203a, UL has the 1/2" model on their website,
listed up to 8" pipe.

https://iq.ulprospector.com/en/profile?e=159477

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 10:00 AM Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> The 3/8" is listed but the 1/2" is not.
>
> --
> *From:* Sprinklerforum 
> on behalf of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 2, 2020 9:55 AM
> *To:* vi...@wtfp.net 
> *Cc:* James Litvak ;
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof
>
> I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about
> the Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes
> listed.
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik  wrote:
>
> Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.
>
> On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:
>
> I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but
> having trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building
> with Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and
> parallel to the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and
> the slope is way too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have
> been able to find is welded linked eye rods from Tolco (
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
> However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad
> idea to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the
> linked eye rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would
> create its own difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to
> hang in this situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope,
> but I figure whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope
> will also work for trapeze hangers.
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing 
> listSprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.orghttp://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
>
> --
>
>
> *Vince Sabolik*
> *West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.*
> 11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
> Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
>
> ___
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>
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>
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[cw bamford via Sprinklerforum]

Just looking at 316 pages of AnvilAfcon
fig 550
fig 206 207
fig AF777   for 3/8" and 1/2"


On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:52 AM James Litvak via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but
> having trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building
> with Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and
> parallel to the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and
> the slope is way too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have
> been able to find is welded linked eye rods from Tolco (
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
> However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad
> idea to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the
> linked eye rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would
> create its own difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to
> hang in this situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope,
> but I figure whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope
> will also work for trapeze hangers.
> ___
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> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Only made in the 3/8" size also.


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 9:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
; vi...@wtfp.net 
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; James Litvak 

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof


I think the Tolco/Cooper B-Line Fig. 75 is similar, if you want another option.



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:55 AM
To: vi...@wtfp.net
Cc: James Litvak ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof



I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about the 
Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes listed.



On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik 
mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:

Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.

On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:

I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.



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--

[cid:image001.png@01D5C142.4D246210]

Vince Sabolik
West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.
11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

The 3/8" is listed but the 1/2" is not.


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 9:55 AM
To: vi...@wtfp.net 
Cc: James Litvak ; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about the 
Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes listed.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik 
mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:
Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.

On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:
I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.



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--
[cid:16f66c02709c01a19f1]

Vince Sabolik
West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.
11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
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RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum]

I think the Tolco/Cooper B-Line Fig. 75 is similar, if you want another option.

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:55 AM
To: vi...@wtfp.net
Cc: James Litvak ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about the 
Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes listed.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik 
mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:
Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.
On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:
I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.


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--
[cid:image001.png@01D5C142.4D246210]

Vince Sabolik
West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.
11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[James Litvak via Sprinklerforum]

I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about
the Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes
listed.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik  wrote:

> Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.
>
> On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:
>
> I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but
> having trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building
> with Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and
> parallel to the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and
> the slope is way too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have
> been able to find is welded linked eye rods from Tolco (
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
> However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad
> idea to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the
> linked eye rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would
> create its own difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to
> hang in this situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope,
> but I figure whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope
> will also work for trapeze hangers.
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing 
> listSprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.orghttp://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
>
> --
>
>
> *Vince Sabolik*
> *West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.*
> 11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
> Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
>
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum]

Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.

On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:
I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but 
having trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style 
building with Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both 
perpendicular and parallel to the slope. The Sammy hangers with 
swivels are not listed, and the slope is way too steep to "adjust" the 
rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is welded linked 
eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf). 
However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a 
bad idea to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went 
with the linked eye rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems 
like it would create its own difficulty. Does anyone here have a 
suggestion for how to hang in this situation? I also need to trapeze 
the pipe across the slope, but I figure whatever solution I can use to 
hang the pipe across the slope will also work for trapeze hangers.


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--


*Vince Sabolik*

*West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.***

11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136

Phone 440 238-4800    Fax 440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601

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Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[James Litvak via Sprinklerforum]

I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but
having trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building
with Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and
parallel to the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and
the slope is way too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have
been able to find is welded linked eye rods from Tolco (
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad
idea to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the
linked eye rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would
create its own difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to
hang in this situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope,
but I figure whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope
will also work for trapeze hangers.
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