date:20230220

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

2023-02-20 Thread Greg McGahan

Personally, I have always calculated the outriggers because sometimes they
are more demanding. If a designer reduces the spacing between the
sprinklers on the outriggers to make up for the distance against the wall,
this can force you to pick up extra heads in the same Sq Ft area. It takes
a couple of minutes to be sure and I have busted people in review where the
calcs did not work.



On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 11:31 PM Travis Mack  wrote:

> With the modern software systems it’s quite simple. You just put as many
> design areas in the plan as needed to find the most demanding. It’s not
> like we are doing hand calcs and taking hours to do them. It is generally
> only a few seconds to a few minutes to put a calc area on a system.
>
> Travis Mack, SET
>
> *M.E.P.CAD* |
>
> 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
>
> www.mepcad.com | *m: 480.547.9348*
>
>
>
> *AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD*
>
>
>
> Book appointment time in my calendar
>
> https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad
>
> --
> *From:* Rick Matsuda 
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 18, 2023 1:23:12 PM
> *To:* vi...@wtfp.net ; Discussion list on issues relating
> to automatic fire sprinklers 
> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...
>
> The rule is…you must calculate the “hydraulically most demanding area”
> which is often difficult to determine.
> Rick
>
> On Feb 18, 2023, at 2:11 PM, Vince Sabolik  wrote:
>
>  Thanks Rick -
> I fully understand the hydraulic stuff, but I was hoping to be able to
> point to a
> rule somewhere.
>
> On 2/18/2023 2:53 PM, Rick Matsuda wrote:
>
> It’s hydraulics. If you have a remote area in the middle of the grid, then
> water is flowing to the sprinklers from both mains. If the remote area has
> four sprinklers on each branchline, then two sprinklers are fed from each
> main. If you have six sprinklers on each branchline, then three sprinklers
> are fed from each main.
> As a plan reviewer, I required an additional remote area to be calculated
> if there was more than half the number of sprinklers on deadend
> “outriggers” if all the branchline pipes were the same size. The deadend
> lines are hydraulically more demanding.
> I also required additional remote areas if you down-sized the outrigger
> piping.
>
> Rule of thumb for you…don’t put more than half the number of sprinklers
> from the width of the remote area on an outrigger and don’t change the
> outrigger pipe sizes.
> Rick Matsuda
>
> On Feb 18, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Vince Sabolik 
>  wrote:
>
>  Thanks Mike -
>
> That sure would explain a lot of uncalculated three head outboards that
> I've seen,
> but I was hoping for a written down rule somewhere.
>
> On 2/18/2023 2:00 PM, Mike Morey wrote:
>
> I was always told it was half the number of heads per line in the remote
> area. Theory being roughly half the water goes each way back to the mains
> anyways, so half the heads was half the water that one direction.
>
> *Mike Morey*
>
> *CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677*
>
> *Project Manager* • Fire Protection Group
> * Shambaugh & Son, LP **an EMCOR Company*
>
> 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825
>
> *direct *260.487.7824* /  cell *260.417.0625* /  fax *260.487.7991
> * email *mmo...@shambaugh.com
>
> *Vince Sabolik*
> *West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.*
> 11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
> Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
>
> _
> SprinklerForum mailing list:
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> _
> SprinklerForum mailing 
> list:https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> *Vince Sabolik*
> *West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.*
> 11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
> Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
>
> _
> SprinklerForum mailing list:
> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
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> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
>
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> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org



-- 

Greg McGahan

*Genesis Fire Services, LLC*

*4912 Glover Lane. Milton, FL **32570*

*P- 850-637-8535*

*C- 850-712-9555*

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

2023-02-20 Thread Fpdcdesign

  
  

 Rule of thumb: if the number of sprinklers on the outrigger is less than 1/2 
the number on a single line in the remote area, you do not need to calc the 
outrigger. Caveat: the outriggers are the same size as the grid lines.   
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Feb 20, 2023 at 8:07 AM,   (mailto:g...@genesisfireservices.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   Personally, I have always calculated the outriggers because 
> sometimes they are more demanding. If a designer reduces the spacing between 
> the sprinklers on the outriggers to make up for the distance against the 
> wall, this can force you to pick up extra heads in the same Sq Ft area. It 
> takes a couple of minutes to be sure and I have busted people in review where 
> the calcs did not work. class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 
> 11:31 PM Travis Mack  < href="mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com";>t.m...@mepcad.com> 
> wrote:  
>   With the modern software systems it’s quite 
> simple. You just put as many design areas in the plan as needed to find the 
> most demanding. It’s not like we are doing hand calcs and taking hours to do 
> them. It is generally only a few seconds to a few minutes to put a calc area 
> on a system. id="m_5928905367855063360ms-outlook-mobile-signature"> 
> style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Travis Mack, 
> SETstyle="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> style="color:rgb(31,56,100)">M.E.P.CAD style="color:rgb(31,56,100)">   |   
> style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> dir="ltr" style="color:currentcolor">181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I 
> Henderson, NV 89074style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> href="http://www.mepcad.com/"; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)" 
> target="_blank">www.mepcad.com style="color:black">   |   m:   
>  style="color:currentcolor">480.547.9348style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> style="color:black">   style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> style="color:rgb(31,56,100)">AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | 
> AlarmCADstyle="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> style="color:black">   style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Book 
> appointment time in my calendarstyle="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> href="https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad"; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)" 
> target="_blank"> style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad 
>style="display:inline-block;width:98%">id="m_5928905367855063360divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr">From:  Rick Matsuda 
>   target="_blank">rick26...@gmail.com>   Sent:  Saturday, 
> February 18, 2023 1:23:12 PM   To:href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net"; target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net   < href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net"; target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net>; 
> Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers  < href="mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org"; 
> target="_blank">sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>   
> Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...  
> dir="ltr">The rule is…you must calculate the “hydraulically most demanding 
> area” which is often difficult to determine.  dir="ltr">Rick  On Feb 
> 18, 2023, at 2:11 PM, Vince Sabolik   target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net> wrote: 
>    Thanks Rick -  I 
> fully understand the hydraulic stuff, but I was hoping to be able to point to 
> a  rule somewhere.On 2/18/2023 2:53 PM, Rick Matsuda 
> wrote: It’s 
> hydraulics. If you have a remote area in the middle of the grid, then water 
> is flowing to the sprinklers from both mains. If the remote area has four 
> sprinklers on each branchline, then two sprinklers are fed from each main. If 
> you have six sprinklers on each branchline, then three sprinklers are fed 
> from each main. As a plan reviewer, I required an 
> additional remote area to be calculated if there was more than half the 
> number of sprinklers on deadend “outriggers” if all the branchline pipes were 
> the same size. The deadend lines are hydraulically more demanding.  
>I also required additional remote areas if you down-sized 
> the outrigger piping.Rule of thumb 
> for you…don’t put more than half the number of sprinklers from the width of 
> the remote area on an outrigger and don’t change the outrigger pipe sizes.  
>Rick Matsuda  
> On Feb 18, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Vince Sabolik   href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net"; target="_blank">     
> wrote:dir="ltr"> Thanks Mike - That sure would explain a lot of 
> uncalculated three head outboards that I've seen,  but I was hoping 
> for a written down rule somewhere.  On 2/18/2023 2:00 PM, 
> Mike Morey wrote:   
>  s

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

2023-02-20 Thread Bob Caputo

I don’t weigh in on forum matters often, but as one who has done a
significant amount of (contract) plan reviews, if the number of sprinklers
on the branch lines outside of the grid visually appears to potentially
present a greater demand, I would ask for calcs to prove they are not.



Any submittal should provide enough hydraulically calculated areas to show
the plan reviewer that the area of greatest demand is proven. (Unless the
system is a tree configuration, with a single occupancy and design density
throughout) where the demand area is obvious. I teach plan review and
that’s what I tell AHJ’s to expect.



Bob





*From:* Fpdcdesign 
*Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2023 7:14 AM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...



Rule of thumb: if the number of sprinklers on the outrigger is less than
1/2 the number on a single line in the remote area, you do not need to calc
the outrigger. Caveat: the outriggers are the same size as the grid lines.






On Feb 20, 2023 at 8:07 AM, >
wrote:

Personally, I have always calculated the outriggers
because sometimes they are more demanding. If a designer reduces the
spacing between the sprinklers on the outriggers to make up for the
distance against the wall, this can force you to pick up extra heads
in the same Sq Ft area. It takes a couple of minutes to be sure and I
have busted people in review where the calcs did not
work.On Sat, Feb 18,
2023 at 11:31 PM Travis Mack t.m...@mepcad.com>
wrote:













With the modern software systems it’s quite simple. You
just put as many design areas in the plan as needed to find the most
demanding. It’s not like we are doing hand calcs and taking hours to
do them. It is generally only a few seconds to a

 few minutes to put a calc area on a system. 











Travis
Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |


181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I
Henderson, NV 89074

http://www.mepcad.com/"; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)"
target="_blank">www.mepcad.comhttp://www.mepcad.com%3c/span%3e%3c/a%3e%3cspan>
style="color:black"> | m:
480.547.9348

 

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |
AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

 

Book
appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad"; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)"
target="_blank">https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad











From: Rick Matsuda rick26...@gmail.com>

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 1:23:12 PM

To: mailto:vi...@wtfp.net "
target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net vi...@wtfp.net>; Discussion
list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

 









The rule is…you must calculate the “hydraulically most
demanding area” which is often difficult to determine. 

Rick



On Feb 18, 2023, at 2:11 PM, Vince Sabolik
vi...@wtfp.net> wrote:









 Thanks Rick -

I fully understand the hydraulic stuff, but I was hoping to be able to
point to a

rule somewhere. 



On 2/18/2023 2:53 PM, Rick Matsuda wrote:





It’s hydraulics. If you have a remote area in the
middle of the grid, then water is flowing to the sprinklers from both
mains. If the remote area has four sprinklers on each branchline, then
two sprinklers are fed from each main.

 If you have six sprinklers on each branchline, then three sprinklers
are fed from each main. 

As a plan reviewer, I required an additional remote area to be
calculated if there was more than half the number of sprinklers on
deadend “outriggers” if all the branchline pipes were the same size.
The deadend lines are hydraulically more demanding. 

I also required additional remote areas if you down-sized the
outrigger piping.  



Rule of thumb for you…don’t put more than half the number of
sprinklers from the width of the remote area on an outrigger and don’t
change the outrigger pipe sizes. 

Rick Matsuda



On Feb 18, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Vince Sabolik mailto:vi...@wtfp.net " target="_blank">

 wrote:









 Thanks Mike -



That sure would explain a lot of uncalculated three head outboards
that I've seen,

but I was hoping for a written down rule somewhere.



On 2/18/2023 2:00 PM, Mike Morey wrote:









I
was always told it was half the number of heads per line in the remote
area. Theory being roughly half the water goes each way back to the
mains anyways,

 so half the heads was half the water that one direction.











Mike
Morey

CFPS
3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677

Project
Manager
•

 Fire Protection Group

Shambaugh & Son, LP an
EMCOR Company

7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN
• 46825

direct
260.487.7824 /

 cell 260.417.0625
/  fax 260.487.7991

email mailto:mmo...@shambaugh.com "
target="_blank">mmo..

[Sprinklerforum] NFPA 13 (1989)

2023-02-20 Thread Bobby Welch

Does anyone know what the design criteria of 0.35gpm over the most remote 2000 
sq. ft. back in 1989 would be for?

Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer
KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY
3577 Concorde Rd, Vandalia, OH 45377
P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457
bobby.we...@koorsen.com | 
www.koorsen.com

24x7x365 Service: 937.660.7050 | servic...@koorsen.com

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989)

2023-02-20 Thread Fpdcdesign

 
 

  I looked in my 1989 edition of and did not see anything. That may be from 
NFPA 231 or 231C (storage standards of the day).
 
 
 
Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Feb 20, 2023 at 3:57 PM,  mailto:bobby.we...@koorsen.com)>  
> wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Does anyone know what the design criteria of 0.35gpm over the most remote 
> 2000 sq. ft. back in 1989 would be for? Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems 
> Designer KOORSEN FIRE  &  SECURITY 3577 Concorde Rd, Vandalia, OH 45377 P 
> 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457 
> bobby.we...@koorsen.com  | 
> www.koorsen.com  24x7x365 Service: 937.660.7050 | 
> servic...@koorsen.com 
> _ SprinklerForum 
> mailing list: 
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>
>  
 
 
 
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989)

2023-02-20 Thread Bryan Echelberger

In my 1987 edition, it appears it was 0.35 / 3200 sq ft

Working remotely and in the office please reach me at 720-935-5846- cell
Thank you,
Bryan Echelberger, SET
Fire Protection Consultant
Veritas Fire Engineering, Inc.
12364 West Alameda Pkwy. Suite 135
Lakewood, Colorado 80228
303.985.3300 Ext. 203
1.866.985.2050 Ext. 203
br...@veritasfire.com
www.veritasfire.com
[Description: Description: Description: Description: Description: 
certifiedmark1200[1]]
P  Do you need to print this e-mail?  Think Green.

From: Bobby Welch 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 1:57 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] NFPA 13 (1989)

Does anyone know what the design criteria of 0.35gpm over the most remote 2000 
sq. ft. back in 1989 would be for?

Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer
KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY
3577 Concorde Rd, Vandalia, OH 45377
P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457
bobby.we...@koorsen.com | 
www.koorsen.com

24x7x365 Service: 937.660.7050 | 
servic...@koorsen.com

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989)

2023-02-20 Thread tstone52

NFPA 231, 1995 ED. Chapt. 7 Plastics, Group A, Expanded, Cartoned, Unstable. 20 
high storage, 25’ high roof,  .35/2,000 SF

NFPA 231C, 1995 ED. Chapt.6, Table 6-12, 12’-20’ storage Class 2 Commodity, 
with inracks, Fig. 6-12(e) Curve D, .35/2,000 SF

 

Regards,

G. Tim Stone

 

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC

NICET Level III Engineering Technician

Fire Protection Sprinkler Design

and Consulting Services

 

   117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452

 CELL: (802) 373-0638  

   tston...@comcast.net

 

From: Bryan Echelberger  
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 4:05 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989) 

 

In my 1987 edition, it appears it was 0.35 / 3200 sq ft 

 

Working remotely and in the office please reach me at 720-935-5846- cell

Thank you,

Bryan Echelberger, SET

Fire Protection Consultant

Veritas Fire Engineering, Inc.

12364 West Alameda Pkwy. Suite 135

Lakewood, Colorado 80228

  303.985.3300 Ext. 203

  1.866.985.2050 Ext. 203

  br...@veritasfire.com

  www.veritasfire.com

   

P  Do you need to print this e-mail?  Think Green.

 

From: Bobby Welch mailto:bobby.we...@koorsen.com> > 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 1:57 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] NFPA 13 (1989) 

 

Does anyone know what the design criteria of 0.35gpm over the most remote 2000 
sq. ft. back in 1989 would be for? 

Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer
KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY
3577 Concorde Rd, Vandalia, OH 45377
P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457
bobby.we...@koorsen.com   | www.koorsen.com 


24x7x365 Service: 937.660.7050 | servic...@koorsen.com 
  


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[Sprinklerforum] 18" clearance

2023-02-20 Thread Scott Futrell

All,
I don't have access to my older editions right now.
Can anyone tell me if the 18" clearance between the deflector and the top of 
storage was in the 1996 edition of NFPA 13?
Thanks in advance.
Scott

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: 18" clearance

2023-02-20 Thread Derrek Crigler

Yes, It's there. Section 4-5.6

Derrek Crigler
Design Manager
[cid:image001.png@01D94543.AA7D15F0]









From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 2:34 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] 18" clearance

All,
I don't have access to my older editions right now.
Can anyone tell me if the 18" clearance between the deflector and the top of 
storage was in the 1996 edition of NFPA 13?
Thanks in advance.
Scott

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...

[Sprinklerforum] NFPA 13 (1989)

[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989)

[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989)

[Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13 (1989)

[Sprinklerforum] 18" clearance

[Sprinklerforum] Re: 18" clearance

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