I don’t weigh in on forum matters often, but as one who has done a significant amount of (contract) plan reviews, if the number of sprinklers on the branch lines outside of the grid visually appears to potentially present a greater demand, I would ask for calcs to prove they are not.
Any submittal should provide enough hydraulically calculated areas to show the plan reviewer that the area of greatest demand is proven. (Unless the system is a tree configuration, with a single occupancy and design density throughout) where the demand area is obvious. I teach plan review and that’s what I tell AHJ’s to expect. Bob *From:* Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com> *Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2023 7:14 AM *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid... Rule of thumb: if the number of sprinklers on the outrigger is less than 1/2 the number on a single line in the remote area, you do not need to calc the outrigger. Caveat: the outriggers are the same size as the grid lines. On Feb 20, 2023 at 8:07 AM, <Greg McGahan <g...@genesisfireservices.com>> wrote: <div dir="ltr">Personally, I have always calculated the outriggers because sometimes they are more demanding. If a designer reduces the spacing between the sprinklers on the outriggers to make up for the distance against the wall, this can force you to pick up extra heads in the same Sq Ft area. It takes a couple of minutes to be sure and I have busted people in review where the calcs did not work.<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 11:31 PM Travis Mack <<a href="mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com <t.m...@mepcad.com>">t.m...@mepcad.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div> <div> <div> <div dir="ltr">With the modern software systems it’s quite simple. You just put as many design areas in the plan as needed to find the most demanding. It’s not like we are doing hand calcs and taking hours to do them. It is generally only a few seconds to a few minutes to put a calc area on a system. </div> </div> <div id="m_5928905367855063360ms-outlook-mobile-signature"> <div><br> </div> <div dir="ltr"> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Travis Mack, SET</p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="color:rgb(31,56,100)">M.E.P.CAD</span></b><span style="color:rgb(31,56,100)"><span> </span></span>|<span> </span><b></b></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span dir="ltr" style="color:currentcolor">181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074</span></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.mepcad.com/"; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.mepcad.com</span></a><span <http://www.mepcad.com%3c/span%3e%3c/a%3e%3cspan> style="color:black"><span> </span>|<span> </span><b>m:<span> </span><span dir="ltr" style="color:currentcolor">480.547.9348</span></b></span></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="color:black"> </span></b></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="color:rgb(31,56,100)">AutoSPRINK | AutoSPRINK FAB | AutoSPRINK RVT | AlarmCAD</span></b><b><span style="color:rgb(31,56,100)"></span></b></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="color:black"> </span></b></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Book appointment time in my calendar</p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad"; style="color:rgb(0,120,212)" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad</span></a></p> <br> </div> </div> </div> <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id="m_5928905367855063360divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Rick Matsuda <<a href="mailto:rick26...@gmail.com <rick26...@gmail.com>" target="_blank">rick26...@gmail.com</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 18, 2023 1:23:12 PM<br> <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net <vi...@wtfp.net>" target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net</a> <<a href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net <vi...@wtfp.net>" target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net</a>>; Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <<a href="mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>" target="_blank">sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [Sprinklerforum] Re: Once upon a grid...</font> <div> </div> </div> <div> <div dir="auto"> <div dir="ltr"></div> <div dir="ltr">The rule is…you must calculate the “hydraulically most demanding area” which is often difficult to determine. </div> <div dir="ltr">Rick</div> <div dir="ltr"><br> <blockquote type="cite">On Feb 18, 2023, at 2:11 PM, Vince Sabolik <<a href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net <vi...@wtfp.net>" target="_blank">vi...@wtfp.net</a>> wrote:<br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> Thanks Rick -<br> I fully understand the hydraulic stuff, but I was hoping to be able to point to a<br> rule somewhere. <br> <br> <div>On 2/18/2023 2:53 PM, Rick Matsuda wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"><span>It’s hydraulics. If you have a remote area in the middle of the grid, then water is flowing to the sprinklers from both mains. If the remote area has four sprinklers on each branchline, then two sprinklers are fed from each main. If you have six sprinklers on each branchline, then three sprinklers are fed from each main. </span><br> <span>As a plan reviewer, I required an additional remote area to be calculated if there was more than half the number of sprinklers on deadend “outriggers” if all the branchline pipes were the same size. The deadend lines are hydraulically more demanding. </span><br> <span>I also required additional remote areas if you down-sized the outrigger piping. </span><br> <span></span><br> <span>Rule of thumb for you…don’t put more than half the number of sprinklers from the width of the remote area on an outrigger and don’t change the outrigger pipe sizes. </span><br> <span>Rick Matsuda</span></div> <div dir="ltr"><br> <blockquote type="cite">On Feb 18, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Vince Sabolik <a href="mailto:vi...@wtfp.net <vi...@wtfp.net>" target="_blank"> <vi...@wtfp.net></a> wrote:<br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> Thanks Mike -<br> <br> That sure would explain a lot of uncalculated three head outboards that I've seen,<br> but I was hoping for a written down rule somewhere.<br> <br> <div>On 2/18/2023 2:00 PM, Mike Morey wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div> <div> <div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">I was always told it was half the number of heads per line in the remote area. Theory being roughly half the water goes each way back to the mains anyways, so half the heads was half the water that one direction.</span><br> </div> </div> <div id="m_5928905367855063360x_x_ms-outlook-mobile-signature"> <div><br> </div> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><i><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Mike Morey</span></i></b></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:16px;color:rgb(79,79,79)">CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677</span></i></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:18px;color:black">Project Manager</span></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:18px;color:black"><span> </span>• Fire Protection Group</span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:20px"><br> Shambaugh & Son, LP<span> </span></span></b><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:16px;color:teal">an EMCOR Company</span></i></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:16px;color:rgb(95,95,95)"><span dir="ltr">7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN</span><span> </span>• 46825</span></p> <p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:18px;color:black">direct<span> </span></span></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:18px;color:black"><span dir="ltr">260.487.7824</span><b><span> </span>/ cell<span> </span></b><span dir="ltr">260.417.0625</span><b><span> </span>/ fax<span> </span></b><span dir="ltr">260.487.7991</span><b><br> email<span> </span></b><span dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:mmo...@shambaugh.com <mmo...@shambaugh.com>" target="_blank">mmo...@shambaugh.com</a></span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:20px;color:black"><br> </span><br> </p> </div> </div> </blockquote> <div> <div> <address><font size="+1"><span><b>Vince Sabolik</b></span></font></address> <div> <div> <address><font size="+1"></font></address> <address><span><b>West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.</b></span><b><span></span></b><span><br> </span></address> <address><span>11351 Pearl Road / Strongsville, Ohio 44136</span><span></span></address> <div id="m_5928905367855063360x_x_41625.4580461343"> <div> <address></address> </div> <address></address> <div> <address><span>Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601</span><span></span></address> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <span></span><br> <span>_________________________________________________________</span><br> <span>SprinklerForum mailing list:</span><br> <span><a href="https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org"; target="_blank">https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org</a></span><br> <span>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org <sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>" target="_blank"> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org</a></span></div> </blockquote> <br> <fieldset></fieldset> <pre>_________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: <a href="https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org"; target="_blank">https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org</a> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org <sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>" target="_blank">sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org</a></pre> </blockquote> <br> <div>-- <br> <div> <address></address> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div><img src="cid:1866eec686c109ea7011"> </div> <div dir="auto"> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div> <address><br> <br> <font size="+1"><span><b>Vince Sabolik</b></span></font></address> <div> <div> <address><font size="+1"></font></address> <address><span><b>West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.</b></span><b><span></span></b><span><br> </span></address> <address><span>11351 Pearl Road / Strongsville, Ohio 44136</span><span></span></address> <div id="m_5928905367855063360x_x_41625.4580461343"> <div> <address></address> </div> <address></address> <div> <address><span>Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601</span><span></span></address> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <span></span><br> <span>_________________________________________________________</span><br> <span>SprinklerForum mailing list:</span><br> <span><a href="https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org"; target="_blank">https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org</a></span><br> <span>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org <sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>" target="_blank">sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org</a></span></div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> <br> _________________________________________________________<br> SprinklerForum mailing list:<br> <a href="https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org"; rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org <sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org>" target="_blank">sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org</a></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Greg McGahan<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"><b>Genesis Fire Services, LLC</b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u><b><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">4912 Glover Lane. Milton, FL </span></b><b><span style="color:rgb(0,0,102)">32570</span></b><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><b><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">P- 850-637-8535<u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><b><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">C- 850-712-9555</span></b></p></div></div> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
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