RE: ESFR - Minimum Remote Area Size

2021-12-29 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Yes, I have done an FM approved ESFR job with beams spaced 5'-0" o.c., and only 
calc'd. for 12 heads.
Also baffles are not allowed with ESFR sprinklers.

Dennis Wilson
Blackhawk Sprinklers.


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 2:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; Mike Hairfield 
Subject: RE: ESFR - Minimum Remote Area Size

In the FM Datasheets, it looks like the minimum design area is 768 sq ft (64 x 
12), EXCEPT when sprinklers are required in every channel created by obstructed 
construction. In the case of sprinklers in every channel, it appears as though 
you just calculate the required minimum number of sprinklers. I THINK 
(certainly not a leading authority on this) that the heat from a fire will be 
directed along the channel, which minimizes the concern for "skipping".

Anyone else have thoughts on this, either in agreement or otherwise? 

It looks like I can protect it per FM Global criteria, but I'd rather not open 
that can of worms if there's a legitimate way to apply NFPA 13. I guess it all 
comes down to whether the minimum spacing applies if there is a solid 
obstruction between the sprinklers. I'm confident that it wouldn't with 
standard spray sprinklers, but looking for some reassurance (or rebuke) when it 
comes to ESFR.

-Kyle M

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 12:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; Mike Hairfield 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: ESFR - Minimum Remote Area Size

Deflector distance isn't a problem, I can either run the branch line up high in 
every pocket/bay or utilize an upright ESFR (Tyco ESFR-17).

I was thinking that the minimum spacing didn't apply when there was an 
obstruction/baffle between the heads (in this case, the legs of the concrete 
tee) and the heads are installed in "every bay channel formed by solid 
structural members". This is specifically allowed in the FM Datasheets, but I 
believe they also have a minimum remote areas size that would require you to 
add sprinklers to the remote area. 

Is the consensus among the group that this building (concrete tees with legs 5 
feet on center) just cannot be protected with ESFR sprinklers per NFPA 13?

And, if that's the case, are we also saying that any time there is a 
beam/obstruction in an ESFR system that the heads on either side of it still 
need to be at least 8 feet apart? You can't have a head 3 feet away on each 
side of the beam (heads 6 feet apart but with a solid obstruction/baffle 
between them)?

-Kyle M

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 12:22 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mike Hairfield 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ESFR - Minimum Remote Area Size

I don’t believe ESFR sprinklers can be installed in a concrete tee building.
Minimum spacing is 8’-0” and what is the deflector distance.
Mike 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm dealing with an existing concrete tee building that the owner wants to 
> retrofit with an ESFR system. Heads will be closely spaced due to the 
> obstruction caused by the tees; 5-foot on center. Does NFPA 13 have a minimum 
> remote area size, or is it just 12 heads?
> 
> -Kyle M
> 
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RE: Paint Booth Duct Protection

2021-12-03 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Only the exhaust duct is normally sprinklered.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2021 12:23 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Caputo 
Subject: Re: Paint Booth Duct Protection

Generally, if the exhaust duct Carrie's flammable or combustible vapors it does




On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 9:49 AM Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> I have a paint booth with a intake and exhaust duct systems.
>
> When I look at NFPA 33-9.5.1.6 Duct Protection
>
> It only specific size of duct requiring protection, and doesn't 
> mention "exhaust" until item #2 and #3.
>
> If larger enough does both set of ducting require protection?
>
>
> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
> Oceanside, CA 92058
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>
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RE: theft of FDC inlets

2021-10-18 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
I would prefer everyone switch to Storz connections.
This eliminates all the questions about what kind of FDC to provide, or finish.
How many times has the Engineer/Architect ask for a Siamese connection, but 
want a flush.
And Storz also come with Locking knox caps if needed.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Henry Fontana via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 10:28 AM
To: e...@bamfordfire.com; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Henry Fontana 
Subject: Re: theft of FDC inlets

Best would be get a Knox cap. It can not be removed.

Henry Fontana
Operations Manager (NYC)
Johnson Controls Fire Protection
100 Lighting Way| St#402|Secaucus|NJ 07094
Cell: 201-210-9873
henry.font...@jci.com


On Oct 14, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Ed Kramer via Sprinklerforum 
 wrote:

We received a letter from a local fire official saying they've seen a 
significant increase in theft of FDC's.  It's no longer just the brass plugs, 
but now it's the female swivel - making the FDC non-functional.



Some potential solutions that have been offered include:

*Using a bit of JB Weld on the set screw that holds the swivel in
place
*Drilling out the top of the same set screw
*Replacing standard FDC's w/Storz
*Installing locking covers (such as Knox #3041)
*Electrifying the FDC and instructing fire fighters to wear
insulating gloves (not really)



Anybody got any other ideas?



Ed K

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Open Slat Ceilings

2021-09-01 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
What is the opinion of the group, when you have 1" wide metal slats, 4" deep, & 
6" on center.
Sprinklers are installed above slats, in a ACT ceiling, 14" above the top of 
the slats.
Are these an obstruction?
According to NFPA 13 2019 (9.3.10) open grid ceiling, you need 18" minimum at a 
10'x10' spacing, and there is only 14"
Or can 10.2.7.2.1.3, 3x rule apply? 4" deep times 3 = 12"

Dennis Wilson
Blackhawk Sprinklers
1-319-266-7721



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RE: Pool maintenance area

2021-08-05 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Been there done that.
Yes it needs corrosion proof sprinklers, pipe, fittings, and hangers.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 6:56 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Pool maintenance area

 
 

  I am working on a project with a therapy pool that is recessed into the floor 
with its own pit. There is a service area (stand up height) in the pit adjacent 
to the pool for maintenance. The walls, ceiling and floor are concrete and the 
pool enclosure is metal. Sprinklers in the service area or no? There is no good 
way to feed them
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
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RE: Sprinkler drop sizing

2021-07-01 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
I have the 1985 book, and it wasn't allowed then.
Same rule as now, ½ x 1 ell to 1" drops.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Jennifer Cornett via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 10:45 AM
To: Mark Phillips ; 
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Jennifer Cornett 
Subject: RE: Sprinkler drop sizing

The branchlines are 1", 1-1/4", etc. with a tee and the drop is ½" pipe to the 
sprinkler heads. Where I would normally design a 1" drop, they used ½".

Sincerely,

Jennifer Cornett, NICET SET
Sprinkler Sales
Firetrol Protection Systems, Inc.
1001 Ave. B
Lubbock, Texas 79401
Ph 806-771-3500
Cell 806-589-9630
Fax 806-771-3501
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From: Mark Phillips 
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 10:39 AM
To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Jennifer Cornett 
Subject: Re: Sprinkler drop sizing

Code allows you to retrofit that with a 1/2 x1 ell and a 1 " new drop if the 
outlets are 1/2" off line Could you elaborate?

Sent from my mobile device
Please excuse spelling, grammar, and auto correction.

Mark Phillips
Branch Manager
Fire Sprinkler Design, Install, Inspections Service, Backflows, Fire Alarm 
Inspections

832-101 Purser Drive
Raleigh NC 27603
Phone: 919-779-4010
Fax : 919-779-4014
Cell : 919-268-7587
Email : philli...@pyebarkerfire.com
Web : 
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From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 on behalf of Jennifer Cornett via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 11:31:25 AM
To: 
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 
mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Cc: Jennifer Cornett mailto:jcorn...@firetrol.net>>
Subject: Sprinkler drop sizing

[EXTERNAL]

I have a customer with an existing system that the fire marshal wants brought 
up to code. Some is simply adding/relocating heads, but some is that the 
original installation company used 1/2" drops for the sprinkler heads. The fire 
marshal wants all of them changed. The customer wants to know where in code it 
says that 1/2" drops are not acceptable and why using a 1x1/2 reducer is. Thank 
you!

Sincerely,

Jennifer Cornett, NICET SET
Sprinkler Sales
Firetrol Protection Systems, Inc.
1001 Ave. B
Lubbock, Texas 79401
Ph 806-771-3500
Cell 806-589-9630
Fax 806-771-3501
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firetrol.net%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cdwilson%40blackhawksprinklers.com%7Cae4b0f62c0dc4e334df408d93ca758d7%7C20

RE: Old sprinklers

2021-04-08 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
What monitors them 4 sprinklers?
What happens if one goes off in the middle of the night!!!

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 9:12 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: RE: Old sprinklers

Is there also a stand-alone sprinkler system, or are those the only 4 heads in 
the building?

Matt 


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Thomas Reinhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 9:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Thomas Reinhardt 
Subject: Old sprinklers

Question for the group. I recently did an inspection at a very old McDonalds 
restaurant in town. During inspection found 4 sprinkler heads piped off 
domestic  protecting the rear corridor leading the exit access. I found nothing 
in the old file showing this installation. I do realize that maybe when it was 
built that the code may have warrant this protection. Usually I see this in 
residential building where the basement store room has one or two heads. Any 
thoughts. Thanks

Tom Reinhardt
Skokie Fire Prevention Bureau
Plan Review/Fire Inspector
7424 Niles Center Road
Skokie Fire Department
Skokie, IL 60077 847-982-5342
thomas.reinha...@skokie.org


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RE: Standard HSW at 12 to 18 inches down

2021-02-24 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Tyco HAS A COUPLE Ext. Cov. Sidewalls EC-5 & TYFRL & Globe GL 8174 EC Sidewall 
SR.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 8:37 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Skyler Bilbo 
Subject: Standard HSW at 12 to 18 inches down

I see in NFPA 13 where standard coverage HSW sprinklers are allowed to be used 
12 to 18 inches below the ceiling, where listed for such use.  Does such a 
sprinkler exist?  All of the Tyco, Reliable, and Viking sprinklers that I 
looked up say they are listed for 4 to 12 inches.


Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo

1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax

sbi...@wenteplumbing.com
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RE: [External] RE: Pan-Type Construction

2021-02-02 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
That's it.
I can't see having to put a sprinkler in every one of those boxes.
The exist sprinklers are run along the bottom between the boxes, with a line 
every other box.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mitchell, Scott via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 7:21 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' 

Cc: Mitchell, Scott 
Subject: RE: [External] RE: Pan-Type Construction

Google search "concrete waffle slab", then click on "images" near the top of 
the page. 

I didn't realize there are so many variations.  Some of the pics show the 
set-up before concrete is poured.  One of them looks like upside down bread 
pans. 

Cheers! 
JSM

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Don Kern via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 7:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Don Kern ; Fpdcdesign ; Dennis Wilson 

Subject: [External] RE: Pan-Type Construction

I apologize for not remembering which edition, but the  NFPA 13Handbook has a 
picture of a pan construction ("waffle") under the smooth ceiling section.

-Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 5:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson ; Fpdcdesign 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

Haven't been able to send a picture.


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:46 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Re: Pan-Type Construction

 
 

  Is this is what you are looking at?  
 

 
 
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Feb 1, 2021 at 4:52 PM,   (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
> construction? I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom 
> of the stems with pendents. The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are 
> needed in each pocket. Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both 
> directions. ___ Sprinklerforum 
> mailing list  Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)   
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&data=04%7C01%7Cdwilson%40blackhawksprinklers.com%7C3e57fd81ebec455121ff08d8c77d78e0%7C20b3eafa18334148b9c58e75b45c105a%7C1%7C0%7C637478689003669407%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=0cR7VEANF6S7MGz518ZhLfTUyAQrp1xmjTTm5becgsU%3D&reserved=0
>   
>
>  
 
 
 
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RE: Pan-Type Construction

2021-02-02 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
I couldn't find it either, but it was a picture with small pans,  these are 
bigger 36 sq.ft. pans.

-Original Message-
From: Don Kern  
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 6:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson ; Fpdcdesign 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

I apologize for not remembering which edition, but the  NFPA 13Handbook has a 
picture of a pan construction ("waffle") under the smooth ceiling section.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 5:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson ; Fpdcdesign 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

Haven't been able to send a picture.


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:46 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Re: Pan-Type Construction

 
 

  Is this is what you are looking at?  
 

 
 
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Feb 1, 2021 at 4:52 PM,   (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
> construction? I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom 
> of the stems with pendents. The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are 
> needed in each pocket. Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both 
> directions. ___ Sprinklerforum 
> mailing list  Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)   
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&data=04%7C01%7Cdwilson%40blackhawksprinklers.com%7C024d57835f344b2f79d208d8c7133ae4%7C20b3eafa18334148b9c58e75b45c105a%7C1%7C0%7C637478232718456629%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i0axKXQOcP3JjyxXx4FLZgxjJGpkBQWrSslwhyDvHa8%3D&reserved=0
>   
>
>  
 
 
 
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RE: Pan-Type Construction

2021-02-01 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Haven't been able to send a picture.


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:46 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Re: Pan-Type Construction

 
 

  Is this is what you are looking at?  
 

 
 
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Feb 1, 2021 at 4:52 PM,   (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
> construction? I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom 
> of the stems with pendents. The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are 
> needed in each pocket. Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both 
> directions. ___ Sprinklerforum 
> mailing list  Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> (mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)   
> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org&data=04%7C01%7Cdwilson%40blackhawksprinklers.com%7C1822a23ea31245c1ef5608d8c7032e28%7C20b3eafa18334148b9c58e75b45c105a%7C1%7C0%7C637478163781252869%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=aon5mEk%2Bef8Ziu3ulRk9pAxpNJDcru7GIDVLXeUhaZY%3D&reserved=0
>   
>
>  
 
 
 
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RE: Pan-Type Construction

2021-02-01 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Around 20", so the deflector is over 22" the top of the pans.
But only 4" below the stems.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Dale Wingard via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dale Wingard 
Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

I am picturing a concrete waffle pattern.  What is the depth of the pan?

Regards,

Dale F. Wingard, SET
Designer Commercial/Marine Division
NICET IV #76284
Water-based Systems

Hiller Systems
A Division of The Hiller Companies, Inc.

3751 Joy Springs Drive
Mobile, AL 36693
c: 251.509.7108
o: 251.661.1275 ext. 10145
HillerFire.com



Protecting life and property since 1919


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Dennis Wilson 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

Do you mean Tee or Double-Tee construction?Pan slabs are PIP, with and 
without metal decks, smooth ceiling by definition.

Steve L.   

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2021 1:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson 
Subject: Pan-Type Construction

Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
construction?
I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom of the  stems 
with pendents.
The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are needed in each pocket.
Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both directions.

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RE: Pan-Type Construction

2021-02-01 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
They are not Concrete tees or joists.
They are big open boxes.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton  
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson 
Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

Do you mean Tee or Double-Tee construction?Pan slabs are PIP, with and 
without metal decks, smooth ceiling by definition.

Steve L.   

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2021 1:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson 
Subject: Pan-Type Construction

Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
construction?
I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom of the  stems 
with pendents.
The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are needed in each pocket.
Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both directions.

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Pan-Type Construction

2021-02-01 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
construction?
I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom of the  stems 
with pendents.
The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are needed in each pocket.
Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both directions.

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RE: UL Test Standard for threaded FP fittings

2020-11-05 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
1. There are several manufacturers of DI fittings. We currently are using 
Smith-Cooper but they merged with Anvil late last year and have been trying to 
work out details since. Ward has been trying to bring out a line for years but 
as far as I know  it is not done yet. Tyco used to use Sprink Fitting when we 
first started using them but they had issues so we switched. There is a few 
other foreign companies but we have never messed with them.
2. SCI branded ductile iron threaded fittings are UL Listed and FM Approved at 
500 psi.
Rated to 300 WSP. Castings conform to ASTM A536. Fitting dimensions conform to 
ASME B16.3.
Bushings and plugs conform to ASME B16.14. NPT threads on all fittings conform 
to ASME B1.20.1.
3. I believe we started using them in the mid to late 80's but didn't become 
main stream with us until in the early 90's.
4. Cost wise they run about 20-25% less. Cast & malleable vary back and forth 
on which is cheaper depending on size and popularity. 
5. It all has to do with the amount of steel that is added to the cast iron 
base. Cast iron can crack or break fairly easily but it seals very well. 
Malleable iron with more steel doesn't break as easy but can be overtightened 
and cause leaks. Ductile iron with even more steel is almost impossible to 
break. It can stretch the most of all of them which can cause leaks but is the 
most forgiving and they generally have a much higher pressure rating.
6. We have been using the Ductile iron fittings for the majority of my 40 years 
with the company very successfully with very few leak issues. I have not seen 
anything better yet.

Lee Berryman - Vice President
Blackhawk Sprinklers, Inc
319-266-7721 Office
319-231-6614 Cell

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 10:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: UL Test Standard for threaded FP fittings

Forumites:

We've been asked to compare cast, malleable and ductile threaded fittings on a 
public project.   Malleable and cast have are tabled materials in Chapter 6 
(Chapter 7, 2019 ed.) of NFPA 13 and I'm aware of at least one manufacturer of 
listed ductile threaded fittings.  Who can answer the following:

1.  Besides Anvil, who else manufactures threaded ductile?
2.  What is the UL test standard # for threaded metallic fittings?
3.  When did the first listed ductile threaded fittings come on market?
4.  Where does ductile fall on the cost scale compared to cast and malleable?
5.  What are pros and cons (if any of ductile) compared to the longstanding 
cast and malleable standards?
6.  What's your preference between the three if any and why?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA
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RE: Standpipe Hose Valve at First Floor

2020-07-10 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
I recently had this situation.
The third party reviewer wrote me up, saying they need to be on the 
intermediate landings.
I  did have them on the intermediate landing but told the fire chief, I thought 
it would be a good idea to have one at the exit stairwell as well, and he 
agreed.

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Cary Webber via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 7:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Cary Webber 
Subject: RE: Standpipe Hose Valve at First Floor

Good advice; and often fire departments look for hose valves on intermediate 
landings. In that case one would presume you start between the ground floor and 
the second floor...so it becomes a moot point.



Cary Webber CFPS Director, Technical Services
Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Co., Inc.
1470 Smith Grove Road, Liberty, SC  29657
Tel: 864-843-5161

[Image removed by sender.]

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 8:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Jerry Van Kolken 

Subject: RE: Standpipe Hose Valve at First Floor

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.

I would direct that inquiry to the responding Fire Department. This is a 
subjective issue and depending on the configuration of stairs and access 
passageways, it may be a long stretch from the pumper into the core of the 
building. In such cases, that access level valve is of great value.



Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)




 Original message 
From: Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Date: 7/9/20 3:23 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: jvankol...@mfpc.us
Subject: Standpipe Hose Valve at First Floor

I'm curious if this is described in the code.

I have stairwell that will have a standpipe. But on the first floor it only 
exit to the exterior. Would a Hose valve be required on level 1?

Would they use an interior standpipe connection to fight a fire on the exterior 
of the building on the ground level?

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

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RE: Listed sprinkler guard for horizontal or vertical spray sidewalls

2020-06-24 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Reliable F1FR-56

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 4:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: Listed sprinkler guard for horizontal or vertical spray sidewalls

Does anyone know if any manufacturers have a listed guard for standard sidewall 
sprinklers?   We specified Viking on a project where the sprinklers are 
installed on the piping, running alongside beams in an open area of a tilt-up 
building that is being repurposed as a charter school, so Light Hazard 
occupancy class.   The client has requested that these particular sprinklers be 
protected from potential damage, but they are already installed so our first 
choice is to find a solution for horizontal sidewalls.   2nd choice is to roll 
the piping and install vertical sidewalls (I think we should have designed it 
that way in the first place in hindsight), so if no guards are available, at 
least the piping will protect the sprinklers.   Any of the manufacturers have a 
listed solution for horizontal or vertical?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D64A44.4E9F42A0]


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RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Floor area less than required

2020-06-17 Thread Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Don’t you just love them engineers!!!
[cid:image001.jpg@01D64479.C843B3A0]



From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Bob Knight via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 6:50 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Knight 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Floor area less than required

The spec is demanding 8.0K for the LH areas.


Thank you,

Bob Knight, CET III
Fire by Knight, LLC
208-318-3057

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 5:48 PM
To: b...@firebyknight.com; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Floor area less than required

4.2k or even 2.8k can be your friend – if applicable.

[MFP_logo_F]
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
Engineering Manager
MFP Design
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700
NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471
tm...@mfpdesign.com
travis.m...@ferguson.com
www.mfpdesign.com

Send large files to us via: 
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LinkedIn: 
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 or Android 
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From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Bob Knight via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 4:34 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Knight mailto:b...@firebyknight.com>>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Floor area less than required

Yep, it’s actually 14 sprinklers.  Bunch of small compartments.


Thank you,

Bob Knight, CET III
Fire by Knight, LLC
208-318-3057

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 5:33 PM
To: b...@firebyknight.com; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Floor area less than required

That sounds correct.

It seems strange that your calculation is over-discharging by more than 100% 
though. Minimum discharge is 90 GPM and you’re discharging over 200 GPM? Do you 
have like 13 sprinklers jammed into this area?

-Kyle M

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Bob Knight via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 3:27 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Knight mailto:b...@firebyknight.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Floor area less than required

So, in this case I’m discharging over 200 gpm due to the number of sprinklers 
in the area.  Based on this I shouldn’t need to add any additional flow, 
correct?


Thank you,

Bob Knight, CET III
Fire by Knight, LLC
208-318-3057

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Shawn Foor via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 4:23 PM
To: b...@firebyknight.com; sprinklerforum
Cc: Shawn Foor
Subject: Re: Floor area less than required

That is the way I read it as well. You would have to add the additional 6 GPM.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:03 PM Bob Knight via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
NFPA 13, 2016 ed. States:
23.4.4.2.5   Where the total design discharge from these oper-
ating sprinklers is less than the