RE: AHJ requires Concealed Sprinklers
Yes, we have a jurisdiction that does not permit the use of concealed sprinklers. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2021 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: AHJ requires Concealed Sprinklers Has anyone run into a jurisdiction where they mandate the type of sprinkler to be used? We have one local jurisdiction that mandates concealed sprinklers in R2 occupancies. It is in their amended codes. We hadn't done an R2 in this jurisdiction in many years. This came up new. I was wondering if anyone else has jurisdictions that impose only a certain type of sprinkler. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET Senior Engineering Manager MFP Design 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471 travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dry System Size
The FDT program will work with a single loop. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 10:06 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Brian Harris ; travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: Dry System Size So that begs to question what are you supposed to do it you have a looped system? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 9:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: Re: Dry System Size If I recall correctly, it may work for a loop, depending on configuration, but it is not listed for loops. Only listed for tree systems. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET Senior Engineering Manager MFP Design 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471 travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of cliff--- via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 6:55:52 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: cl...@fire-design.com Subject: RE: Dry System Size Brian, Unless they have changed the program in the last year or so, the FDT software will not work if your mains are looped. I believe it only works on a 'tree' type system. Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. 940 Summerbrooke Drive Tallahassee, FL 32312 Ph: 828-284-4772 cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com<http://www.fire-design.com> -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 9:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Brian Harris Subject: RE: Dry System Size Travis- Thanks as always. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, November 01, 2021 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: Re: Dry System Size Tyco FDT is only software for this. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET Senior Engineering Manager MFP Design 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471 travis.m...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com><http://www.mfpdesign.com/<http://www.mfpdesign.com>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign><https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlo ok.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7<http://ok.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7> C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0 %7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D =0> From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 6:42:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Brian Harris Subject: Dry System Size I assume with a dry system size of 1200 gallons my options are to add a 2nd dry valve and have (2) 600 gallon system with quick opening devices or run delivery time calc's and see if by chance it's under 60 seconds? If the latter is true what do most use to run theses calc's? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/<http://bvssystemsinc.com><http://bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com>>> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org> <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.or<http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.or> g> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org> ___ Sprinklerfo
RE: Supervised Air Manual Dry Standpipe
In NYC we put a 2 1/2" FHV right next to the FDC with a pressure gauge. When they arrive they use the 2 1/2" FHV as a dump valve and can see the pressure that is left in the system at a single location. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, October 22, 2021 1:53 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: BRUCE VERHEI ; Moschello, Joe Subject: RE: Supervised Air Manual Dry Standpipe I’m not familiar with NYC’s requirement. I do know FF’s hate waiting for air to discharge and they get a constant stream of water. Even flat, ostensibly dry hose has a lot of air in it. I mean the lines between the engine and the FDC. Then there’s all the air in the standpipe. Pressurize the dry standpipe and the wait is longer. You all seen dry spk system trip test. Even after a decent stream there’s a little air spitting. Nozzle reaction from a sprinkler head? Meh. From a 200 gpm solid stream nozzle? Nozzle reaction matters, especially if it’s bouncing around. Keep at 25? I’d suppose amongst concerns is time to bleed line, and start to attack fire. Best. Bruce Verhei > On 10/21/2021 8:30 AM Moschello, Joe via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > > It's an FDNY DOB local law amendment NYC made back in 2010 as a result of the > Deutsche Bank fire in 2007 where 2 FF's died and 100 FF's were injured in a 7 > alarm construction site fire. > > Joseph Moschello > Lieutenant/Fire Protection Subcode Official Summit Fire Department > 396 Broad Street > Summit, NJ 07901 > 908-277-9360 > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > Failla, Daniel via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 10:13 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Failla, Daniel > Subject: RE: Supervised Air Manual Dry Standpipe > > CAUTION: This email has originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the > content is safe. > > > > Good morning, > > Can someone please provide the actual NFPA 14, code reference for this > requirement? > > Thank you for the assistance. > > Sincerely, > > Daniel S. Failla Jr. | Deputy Fire Marshal Charleston Fire Department > Fire Marshal Division > 2 George Street, Suite 3800 | Charleston, SC 29401 > T:(843) 724-5960 | F:(843) 720-5857 | fail...@charleston-sc.gov | > www.charleston-sc.gov/fire > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > On Behalf Of Henry Fontana via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 10:47 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Henry Fontana ; cw bamford > > Subject: Re: Supervised Air Manual Dry Standpipe > > CAUTION: This email originated outside of the City of Charleston. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the > content is safe. > > > If you want the big east coast city rule. Here it is. > > “ Pressure shall be maintained in the standpipe and cross connections at all > times and shall not exceed 25 psig (172 kPag) by utilizing nitrogen or an air > compressor with an air dryer” > > Henry Fontana > Operations Manager (NYC) > Johnson Controls Fire Protection > 100 Lighting Way| St#402|Secaucus|NJ > 07094 > Cell: 201-210-9873 > henry.font...@jci.com<mailto:henry.font...@jci.com> > > > On Oct 20, 2021, at 9:18 PM, cw bamford via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > Can somebody on East Coast big city please respond? > > What about using a PS15 Nominal System Pressure 15 psi low pressure > switch on the dry system standpipe? > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Mike Morey via Sprinklerforum < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > > I don’t know that their is an express limit other than minimum 7psi. That > said for safety reasons if you have an air source capable of anything close > to that I’d come up with something to regulate it. Doesn’t 13 limit air > testing to 60 psi for safety? Air pressure is much more dangerous than water > as far as amount of energy stored. > > > Mike Morey > > CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 > > Project Manager • Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR > Company > > 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 > > direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 email > mmo...@shambaugh.com > > [Image] > > >
RE: Overhead / Friction Loss
Could you please also share your spreadsheet with me? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of jaycs7919--- via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2020 6:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: jaycs7...@gmail.com; Brian Harris Subject: Overhead / Friction Loss I sent you an excel sheet I put together for our estimators to use to determine if they would need a pump or not based on design and water flows they obtained. Jay Stough NICET IV LAYOUT NICET III ITM On Tuesday, January 28, 2020, 2:09:21 PM EST, Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: What’s a good “ballpark” number to include for pressure loss due to friction when guesstimating system demand? I figure EHP, Elevation, Underground, BFP. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: inside hose - Standpipes
Are you looking for section 12.8.5? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G Subject: inside hose - Standpipes I have an AHJ that is requesting inside hose allowance to be provided at the standpipe hose valves. I recall there being standards in 13 or 14 that states you are not required to provided inside hose allowances because of standpipes. Can someone help me locate. It would not normally be an issue, but we have a tank that is already sized (by others) and this project has car stackers so the inside hose for the duration would cause significant issues. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Software Platform
It sound like most of the forum is running AutoSprink, but I am looking to see if anyone on the forum was a SprinkCAD Classic user and switched over to SprinkCAD 3D. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 13D CAD and Calc Program
I am using AutoCad 2019 – SprinkCAD – ThinkPad p72 with the following build out: ● Intel® Xeon® E-2176M 6 core processor with vPro™ (2.70GHz, up to 4.40GHz with Turbo Boost Technology, 12MB Cache) ● Windows 10 Pro for Workstations 64 ● Windows 10 Pro for Workstations 64 English ● 17.3” UHD 4K (3840 x 2160) IPS anti-glare, 400nits ● 32GB (16GB + 16GB) DDR4 2400MHz ECC ● NVIDIA Quadro P4200 8GB ● IR & 720p HD Camera with Microphone ● Backlit Keyboard with Number Pad - English ● Fingerprint Reader ● Fingerprint ● Hardware dTPM ● Hardware dTPM2.0 Enabled ● 1TB Solid State Drive PCIe-NVMe OPAL2.0 M.2 ● 1TB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm, SATA3, 2.5" ● 2TB ● Smart Card Reader ● 6 cell Li-Polymer 99Wh ● 230W AC Adapter (3pin) - US ● Intel® 9560 vPro 802.11AC (2 x 2) & Bluetooth 5.0 ● vPro Certified ● 17.3" UHD (3840 x 2160) LED, IPS, Anti-glare, non-Touch, with IR-Camera, with Mic, with WLAN ● Intel Xeon E-2176M Processor (12MB Cache, up to 4.40 GHz), NVIDIA Quadro P4200 8GB GDRR5 Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of firstin--- via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, November 8, 2019 8:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: firs...@aol.com Subject: 13D CAD and Calc Program Hello all, I've been drawing 13D systems by hand on reflective ceiling plans for years. I'm now looking for recommendations for a CAD program for 13D systems, something simple and inexpensive if possible. I've been using Hydronics to run the calculations. There is a problem with this program when trying to plug in a pump. I would like to know who is using what as far a as calculation program. Any recommendations on computer drawing and calculation programs. Thanks all! Owen Evans Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Ex cov under OH Door
NFPA 2013 2019 - 11.3.2 (8) Extended coverage sprinklers installed to protect areas below a single overhead door(s) Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 5:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack Subject: Ex cov under OH Door Question has been brought up. Can you use ex cov sidewall listed for light hazard under overhead door in an ordinary hazard building? I was under the impression it was not an issue. There is wording in section on standard spray sidewall that you can. But the same wording is not in the section under ex cov sidewall sprinklers. Since location has meaning, it made me question. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com<http://www.mfpdesign,com> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Flex Heads
I have not heard of any issues, several of my clients use them. Many of my clients have started switching over to Victaulic's CC so that the entire system is grooved. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Flex Heads I know that flex heads are listed and approved. I'm sure this topic has come up before. Anyone have any problems with using flex heads? Tom Reinhardt Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer Skokie Fire Department 7424 Niles Center Road Skokie, IL 60077 Office: 847-982-5342 thomas.reinha...@skokie.org<mailto:thomas.reinha...@skokie.org> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sleeping rooms in a hospital
I have always done QR. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Sleeping rooms in a hospital Residential sprinklers or QR? I-2 occupancy. Specs call for residential. I've always done these as QR. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: PDF to DWG programs
Do you have an earlier version of AutoCAD? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of J H Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 1:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: PDF to DWG programs Hello everybody, Does anyone have any recommendation for a free or low cost program to convert PDF to DWG format? I tried the trial version of Autocad 2019 and really liked their PDFIMPORT function but I can't afford to upgrade so am looking for other alternatives. I have some old software that will do it but the results aren't near the quality of Autocad2019. Thanks, J ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Water Test From Storage Tank
Vince and Glen sorry for the inconvenience. Next time I will try and keep my dumb questions to myself so that your head doesn’t explode. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Glen Buelow, Inc. Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 12:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Water Test From Storage Tank Vince, I can't! I am afraid my head will explode. [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=0B7SYmRowbxfLWWlIRHA2UmJqaFE=0B7SYmRowbxfLMHpWaGVTRjhPR0NMN3BtUVZrZWNoZlFFZzBzPQ] Glen Buelow Glen W. Buelow, Inc. Fire Protection Design and Consulting Cleveland 330.220.7201 ● Akron 330.665.4439 On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:42 PM Vince Sabolik mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote: You didn't look at the dumb answers? On May 16, 2019, "Glen Buelow, Inc." mailto:gwb...@gmail.com>> wrote: Vince, Nioce answer to dumb question [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=0B7SYmRowbxfLWWlIRHA2UmJqaFE=0B7SYmRowbxfLMHpWaGVTRjhPR0NMN3BtUVZrZWNoZlFFZzBzPQ] Glen Buelow Glen W. Buelow, Inc. Fire Protection Design and Consulting Cleveland 330.220.7201 ● Akron 330.665.4439 On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 2:26 PM Vince Sabolik mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote: Height x .434 = Starting psi at top. Less friction loss at flow (pick a flow) Your flow test complete with a K factor! On 5/15/2019 11:27 AM, Mike Stossel wrote: I have an existing building with a sprinkler system that is supplied by a gravity tank located on the roof. They are modifying the first floor of the building that will require hydraulic calculations. Is it possible to mathematically create a waterflow test accurately, or do you need to actually perform a water flow test at the 1st floor level? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- [cid:image005.jpg@01D50C80.B0DB7FE0] 11351 Pearl Road / Suite 101 Strongsville, Ohio 44136 Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601 Vince Sabolik ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org Vince Sabolik ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Water Test From Storage Tank
Perfect, thank you. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Steve Mackinnon Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 11:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water Test From Storage Tank I do a lot of this work in NYC and we just use the gravity pressure as the static number and drop 1 psi for residual pressure. Then divide the gravity tank volume by your hazard (i.e. light = 30 minutes, and ord haz = 40 minutes) for the flow number. Steven From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 11:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Water Test From Storage Tank Computer models do it all the time. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 8:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Water Test From Storage Tank I have an existing building with a sprinkler system that is supplied by a gravity tank located on the roof. They are modifying the first floor of the building that will require hydraulic calculations. Is it possible to mathematically create a waterflow test accurately, or do you need to actually perform a water flow test at the 1st floor level? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Water Test From Storage Tank
I have an existing building with a sprinkler system that is supplied by a gravity tank located on the roof. They are modifying the first floor of the building that will require hydraulic calculations. Is it possible to mathematically create a waterflow test accurately, or do you need to actually perform a water flow test at the 1st floor level? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: [EXTERNAL] EC Heads and open Grid Ceilings
I could be completely off base with this, but does your ceiling need to follow open grid ceilings? The thought crossing my mind is a 2"x4" hung on its edge spaced a couple feet apart or more of a ceiling grid system installed without the tiles. Would the three times rule apply instead of the open grid rules? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 1:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] EC Heads and open Grid Ceilings I think you do, unless somehow your EC heads meet that spacing criteria (which would be a horribly inefficient use of EC sprinklers). But I'm hoping someone will disagree with me and have a good answer as to why you don't. -Kyle M From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 9:34 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] EC Heads and open Grid Ceilings We have an existing building that has extended coverage heads installed, the tenant improvement involves floating wood grated ceilings that are more than 70% open and will be about 18" below the sprinkler head. Light hazard occupancy. NFPA #13 (2013) section 8.15.14 Open Grid Ceilings does not make mention of EC heads. Do we need to change all the heads in this area to standard coverage heads? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> Web www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Grooved Coupling for CPVC
I just heard back from Victaulic and they said the following: "You can use and 004, which is 75 with an 005 gasket. You can use the 75 submittal and I believe it is UL/FM approved." Hope this helps. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 12:11 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Grooved Coupling for CPVC I have a local AHJ asking for a data sheet that states that a standard grooved coupling is U/L listed and/or FM approved for that use. Have any of you guys ever seen this? Thanks, Mike ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Antifreeze temperature requirements
Being from Pennsylvania I consult with Punxsutawney Phil. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Antifreeze temperature requirements No one uses the old Farmer’s Almanac anymore? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 10:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Antifreeze temperature requirements Todd, NOAH should be able to help with that information. Regards, G. Tim Stone G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler Design and Consulting Services 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:19 PM To: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: Antifreeze temperature requirements Yes, I’m using the “A” word. I have a client that is asking be about using the new Tyco antifreeze solution for a project. Reading through the literature, it states that it is not good for temperatures below -10F. My question is where do we find information to determine what is the projected minimum temperature for a particular location? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: QR for OH
I would use quick response everywhere. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 10:49 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: QR for OH Quick poll: Just wondering what the consensus is when doing an office building where the majority of the heads are QR pendents in LH areas. Do you use SR pendents in the few rooms that are OH or do you just use QR to keep it simple? I doubt here's much of a cost savings if any. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: OS "flow rates"
What about showing him the equivalent length chart in NFPA 13 for gate valves? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Rocci 3 Cetani Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 3:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: OS "flow rates" So we swapped out a broken OS valve at the hospital and the OSHPD inspector is insisting he wants the "flow rates" ( I assume he means friction loss) from the existing and new OS valve. OS valve cutsheets don't have a friction loss chart because the loss is so minimal. Does anyone have any ideas on how to explain this to an OSHPD inspector, he have already told him this but he is just stuck on wanting to know the "flow rates" Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com> www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Car Lifts
NFPA 13, 2016 now gives us guidance and tells us to protect the area as Extra Hazard Group II with an overhead system only. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Car Lifts Currently working on a high end condo development. The owners have individual garages with an option to have a lift installed so that they can get an additional car in. I am sure you know where this is going ... sprinklers under the lift or no? I don't know of any code references that directly address this situation. What say you? John Irwin "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." - Benjamin Franklin ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Hydrostatic Test Gauge
I have an New York City inspector stating that it is required by code that a 600psi gauge is used when performing a 300psi standpipe test. I have looked at every code book that I can think of and cannot find any such requirement. Does anyone know of any code requirement for this?di Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Back to back floor controls.
You are absolutely right, it always helps when you read the entire question and don’t jump to a conclusion. My apologizes for the incorrect information. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of cl...@fire-design.com Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Back to back floor controls. I thought Todd said this was a 2-story building? I’d use the check valves but more for good ‘engineering practice’. I’m not certain that they are ‘required’, based on the info Todd provided. Just my opinion. Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. 184 Comfort Place Burnsville, NC 28714 Ph: 828-284-4772 [Description: New FDI Logo-4.jpg] cl...@fire-design.com<mailto:cl...@fire-design.com> www.fire-design.com<http://www.fire-design.com/> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls. I agree. Check valves are required. John John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required. 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies. 8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM To: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Subject: Back to back floor controls. I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif]<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient_term=link> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Back to back floor controls.
Sorry, I also made the assumption that your total floor area exceeded the square footage. 8.16.1.5.3 The floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch required by 8.16.1.6.3 shall not be required where the total area of all floors combined does not exceed the system protection area limitations of 8.2.1. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Back to back floor controls. I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Back to back floor controls.
If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required. 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies. 8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Back to back floor controls. I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Obstructions in Light Hazard Attic
It is part of TYCO’s requirements in their listing that when the sprinklers are installed on pipes greater than 2-1/2” they need to be on sprigs. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 11:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Obstructions in Light Hazard Attic The sections you quote, I believe, are for isolated obstructions. I would think your 4” pipe is a continuous obstruction. So, I’m not certain it applies. Additionally, i don’t think the attic sprinklers are SSU. I think you would need to look at the extended coverage rules. That exemption is not located in 8.8 either. I think you may be changing stuff. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:32 AM, Richard Mote mailto:spri...@aol.com>> wrote: We have an attic where the designer placed TYCO BB head directly on a 4" line running at the peak. They should have been on sprigs but it wasn't caught in the design stage. NFPA 13, 2007 in section 8.6.5.2.1.4 States that for light and ordinary hazard occupancies structural members only shall be considered when applying the requirements of 8.6.5.2.1.3. 8.6.5.2.1.8 States The requirement of 8.6.5.2.1.3 shall not apply to sprinkler pipe less than 3 in. (80 mm) in diameter. So which is it? In light and ordinary hazard can you ignore the non structural obstructions and only apply them in extra hazard occupancies? This seems like a circular argument. Excerpt from NFPA 13 below to save looking it up. 8.6.5.2.1.3* Minimum Distance from Obstructions. (A) Unless the requirements of 8.6.5.2.1.4 through 8.6.5.2.1.9 are met, sprinklers shall be positioned away from obstructions a minimum distance of three times the maximum dimension of the obstruction (e.g., structural members, pipe, columns, and fixtures). (B) The maximum clear distance required shall be 24 in. (609 mm) in accordance with Figure 8.6.5.2.1.3(B). 8.6.5.2.1.4* For light and ordinary hazard occupancies, structural members only shall be considered when applying the requirements of 8.6.5.2.1.3. 8.6.5.2.1.5 Sprinklers shall be permitted to be spaced on opposite sides of the obstruction where the distance from the centerline of the obstruction to the sprinklers does not exceed one-half the allowable distance between sprinklers. 8.6.5.2.1.6 Sprinklers shall be permitted to be located one half the distance between the obstructions where the obstruction consists of open trusses 20 in. (0.51 m) or greater a part [24 in. (0.61 m) on center], provided that all truss members are not greater than 4 in. (102 mm) (nominal) in width. 8.6.5.2.1.7 Sprinklers shall be permitted to be installed on the centerline of a truss or bar joist or directly above a beam, provided that the truss chord or beam dimension is not more than 8 in. (203 mm) and the sprinkler deflector is located at least 6 in. (152 mm) above the structural member and where the sprinkler is positioned at a distance three times greater than the maximum dimension of the web members away from the web members. 8.6.5.2.1.8 The requirements of 8.6.5.2.1.3 shall not apply to sprinkler system piping less than 3 in. (80 mm) in diameter A.8.6.5.2.1.4 It is the intent of this section to exempt nonstructural elements in light and ordinary hazard occupancies from the obstruction criteria commonly called the “Three Times Rule.” However, the other obstruction rules, including the “Beam Rule” (see 8.6.5.1.2) and the “Wide Obstruction Rule” (see 8.6.5.3.3), still apply. If an obstruction is so close to a sprinkler that water cannot spray on both sides, it is effectively a continuous obstruction as far as the sprinkler is concerned and the Beam Rule should be applied. It is not the intent of this section to permit the use of fixtures and architectural features or treatments to conceal, obscure, or otherwise obstruct sprinkler discharge. The requirement should be applied in accordance with the performance objectives in 8.6.5.1. Richard L. Mote On Behalf of Rowe Sprinkler Systems ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Big Ass Fans
11.1.7* High Volume Low Speed (HVLS) Fans. The installation of HVLS fans in buildings equipped with sprinklers, including ESFR sprinklers, shall comply with the following: (1) The maximum fan diameter shall be 24 ft (7.3 m). (2) The HVLS fan shall be centered approximately between four adjacent sprinklers. (3) The vertical clearance from the HVLS fan to sprinkler deflector shall be a minimum of 3 ft (0.9 m). (4) All HVLS fans shall be interlocked to shut down immediately upon receiving a waterflow signal from the alarm A.11.1.7 A series of 10 full-scale fire tests and limited-scale testing were conducted to determine the impact of HVLS fan operation on the performance of sprinkler systems. The project, sponsored by the Property Insurance Research Group (PIRG) and other industry groups, was coordinated by the Fire Protection Research Foundation (FPRF). The complete test report, High Volume/Low Speed Fan and Sprinkler Operation - Ph. 2 Final Report (2011), is available from the FPRF. Both control mode density area and early suppression fast response sprinklers were tested. Successful results were obtained when the HVLS fan was shut down upon the activation of the first sprinkler followed by a 90-second delay. Other methods of fan shutdown were also tested including shutdown by activation of air sampling-type detection and ionization-type smoke detectors. Earlier fan shutdown resulted in less commodity damage. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:03 AM To: Sprinkler Forum Subject: Big Ass Fans Local AHJ stated that if the fan is 20' wide (10' blades) it's an obstruction, these are 24' wide. These are located in a warehouse with ESFR sprinkler systems. How does one go about protecting the area below the Big Ass Fans to eliminate the obstructions? Thanks, Mike ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies
I am hopeful that in the future they will be able to expand on the criteria. In most of my projects they stack (3) or more cars, and in this case they are stacking (5). It would be nice to have a solid direction to run in, but as for now we are putting a bandage on it with sidewalls between at each level. Most of the fire sub-code officials have us do it as ordinary hazard group I, this is the first time that they have requested an extra hazard group II. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 1:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies City of San Diego also enforces EH2. Surprise - it's in the book. Since we're using 2016 out here, we're already taking that for granted: A.5.4.2(9). From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies Thank you, that was extremely helpful. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Gus Olson Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies The City of San Francisco has requirements just like you said. Check out Administrative Bulletin 4.25 [cid:image007.png@01D4559D.A41D0A20] Regards, Gus Olson From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies I have a fire subcode official that is requesting sidewall sprinklers to be located at each level of an automobile car stacker. The car stacker will have (4) levels of sidewalls located between each car and then an upright overhead system. They are also requesting that the system be protected in accordance with extra hazard group II. I could not find any allowance or sidewall sprinkler that is listed for extra hazard protection. Does anyone know of a sidewall that is listed for extra hazard? Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies
Thank you, that was extremely helpful. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Gus Olson Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies The City of San Francisco has requirements just like you said. Check out Administrative Bulletin 4.25 [cid:image004.png@01D45599.3A8C56A0] Regards, Gus Olson From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies I have a fire subcode official that is requesting sidewall sprinklers to be located at each level of an automobile car stacker. The car stacker will have (4) levels of sidewalls located between each car and then an upright overhead system. They are also requesting that the system be protected in accordance with extra hazard group II. I could not find any allowance or sidewall sprinkler that is listed for extra hazard protection. Does anyone know of a sidewall that is listed for extra hazard? Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Sidewalls in Extra Hazard Occupancies
I have a fire subcode official that is requesting sidewall sprinklers to be located at each level of an automobile car stacker. The car stacker will have (4) levels of sidewalls located between each car and then an upright overhead system. They are also requesting that the system be protected in accordance with extra hazard group II. I could not find any allowance or sidewall sprinkler that is listed for extra hazard protection. Does anyone know of a sidewall that is listed for extra hazard? Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Type V Construction & Hangers
Had this occur once a couple years ago in New Jersey. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 5:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Type V Construction & Hangers Has anyone run into situations where the AHJ is requiring the structural engineer on a project to provide a sealed criteria letter for the project indicating the maximum hanger spacing based on pipe size and structural member? We are seeing one local jurisdiction start to require this. [MFP_logo_F] Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> http://www.mfpdesign.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D=0> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D=0> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Omission of sprinklers in hotel bathrooms
I believe they should be considered separate bathrooms as permitted by section 3.3.2 and A.3.3.2. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Fox, Duane T. (FireMarshal) Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:48 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' Subject: Omission of sprinklers in hotel bathrooms I have a hotel project where the designer has placed a door inside the bathroom between the sink and toilet/shower. The bathroom is over 55 sqft, however, with the placement of the door inside the bathroom each area on either side of the door is less than 55 sqft. NFPA 13 – 8.15.8.1 states bathrooms under 55 sqft are exempt (with other criteria met) and the appendix for that section states a door is not required in order to omit sprinkler as long as the bathroom complies with the definition for compartment. I assume the door in the appendix is between the bathroom and the living space. My question: is adding a door inside the bathroom, making two areas within the bathroom, a viable design to allow the sprinklers to be omitted? In my opinion the bathroom square footage is the entire area within the bathroom space no matter how many doors are used. Therefore, the space would need coverage. Duane T. Fox, Jr., CFPS, CFI, CFPE Asst Chief, Technical Services DE State Fire Marshal’s Office 302-856-5298 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Fire Truck Supply @ FDC
You can include the city supply. I typically set a fire pump up at the exterior of the building at the FDC location Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Fire Truck Supply @ FDC Is it just 150psi or is it 150 + city supply? Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection (760) 722-2722 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 2:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Fire Truck Supply @ FDC Oh, and starting at something lower than eventual EP is more than adequate to let you find open standpipe ports, and close them. Why flood the stairwell more than necessary? BV On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:06, Bruce Verhei mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> wrote: Most FD's use 150 psi as a near universal starting point. It's what an FDC basically says "start me at". If nozzle is not too high above FDC this isn't too bad. If nozzle is a number of floors up the operator will be ready to provide water before its needed. And it gets all of the now compressed air out of the system. But once water is flowing, the pump operator will do field calc's to get the appropriate real pressure. Our standard 1 3/4 hose packs used 135 psi for friction loss and nozzle pressure. I suspect cities with bigger footprint buildings would use a 200' instead of 150' hose pack, getting you back to ~150 psi at gated wye (2 1/2" X 1 1/2" X 1 1/2") I know an alternative is 50' 2 1/2" then wye, then standpipe bundles. Our standard was for head pressure was 5 psi per floor. For all you three significant digit folks, this actually works out pretty close for 10-12' storeys. Field calc also includes friction loss between engine and FDC. And our standard calc included 25 psi for friction loss in the standpipe system. I later decided that this was way too much, but fire experience belied the numbers. The scheme we used did not result in too high nozzle pressure. Usually more pressure was requested by radio. Eventually I decided that hose lines were much more liable to have kinks in this setting compared to homes, restaurants, repair garages and so on. Compare a kink to a 1" 90 in a 1 1/2" sprinkler line. Lots of friction loss in a very short run. So I didn't send a note to Training telling them no, we weren't seeing 25 psi f.l. in a five story standpipe at 200 gpm. NP + attack line FL + HP + 25 for standpipe and FDC + FL from engine to FDC = EP To recap, -150 psi to get water flowing, -connect second 2 1/2" line to FDC and get it charged, -do field hydraulics, increase engine pressure, and reset relief valve ( or governor) -adjust up 20 psi per each request from attack companies. 20 psi is about minimum that is noticeable. During active fire fighting you will not get a request for less. After control, at some point pressure will be adjusted way down, per request. This is one FD's practice. It works well in low rise. Best Bruce Verhei On Sep 12, 2016, at 13:00, Brian Harris mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote: Thanks guys, much appreciated. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 3:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Fire Truck Supply @ FDC Is there a “standard” GPM @ PSI used for a standpipe calc with regard to what the fire truck will provide? I called the local AHJ and all he would say is they provide 150psi, didn’t know the gpm or even the hose size for that matter. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Reaming of pipe
According to NFPA 13 it is to minimize the reduction of the inside diameter and pieces dislodging and causing obstructions. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Hinson, Ryan Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2018 8:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Schoenecker, Anthony (Tony) Subject: Reaming of pipe What is the forum consensus on why threaded sprinkler piping is reamed. I always did it as a fitter. We have always required it in our specifications. I have never really thought about the ‘why’ though. Is it as simple as removing the burr created when the pipe is cut and any potential ‘Klingons’ that might get sent downstream to a discharge device OR is this the proverbial “It’s always been done this way”? The excerpts included below are what I could find on it with bolding added by me. I’m not seeing where reaming is necessary for sprinkler piping. NFPA 13 (2016) Section 6.5.1.1 states: All threaded pipe and fittings shall have threads cut to ASME B1.20.1, Pipe Threads, General Purpose (Inch). ASTM A135-09 Section 13 – Workmanship, Finish, and Appearance, states the following: 13.2.3 Ends, Threaded Pipe—Each end of threaded pipe shall be reamed to remove all burrs. All threads shall be in accordance with the American National Standard Pipe Threads (Note 6) and cut so as to make a tight joint when the pipe is tested at the mill to the specified internal hydrostatic pressure… NOTE 6—A complete description of the American National Standard Pipe Threads applicable to pipe, valves, and fittings is contained in ASME B1.20.1... ASTM A53-10 Section 11 – End Finish: 11.2 If ordered with threaded ends, the pipe ends shall be provided with a thread in accordance with the gaging practice and tolerances of ANSI B1.20.1… Reaming is not mentioned. ASME B1.20.1-13 – Pipe Threads, General Purpose (Inch), does not mention reaming pipe. Figure 3 and Table 2 do not show a reamed edge of the male end of the threaded pipe. The following are the only ASTM or ASME pipe standard references I can find requiring reaming of pipe: ASTM B0828-16 – Standard Practice for Making Capillary Joints by Soldering of Copper and Copper Alloy Tubing: 6.2 Reaming: 6.2.1 Ream all cut tube ends to the full inside diameter of the tube to remove the small burr created by the cutting operation. Failure to remove this rough edge by reaming is a leading cause of erosion-corrosion that occurs as a result of local turbulence and increased local flow velocity in the tube. A properly reamed piece of tube provides a smooth surface for better flow. ASTM A589-06(12) – Standard Specification for Seamless and Welded Carbon Steel Water-Well Pipe – This does not apply. Thoughts? Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Fire Protection Engineering Group O 952-656-3662 \ M 320-250-5404 \ F 952-229-2923 rhin...@burnsmcd.com<mailto:rhin...@burnsmcd.com> \ burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/> 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 \ Bloomington, MN 55437 [cid:image001.png@01D024F0.1D126480]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/burns-&-mcdonnell> [cid:image002.png@01D024F0.1D126480] <https://www.facebook.com/BurnsMcDonnell> [cid:image003.png@01D024F0.1D126480] <https://twitter.com/BurnsMcDonnell> [cid:image004.png@01D024F0.1D126480] <https://www.youtube.com/user/burnsmcd> [cid:image005.png@01D024F0.1D126480] <http://www.burnsmcdblog.com/> [cid:image006.png@01D024F0.1D126480] <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/public-profile-settings?trk=prof-edit-edit-public_profile> Proud to be one of FORTUNE’s 100 Best Companies to Work For Please consider the environment before printing this email. *Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout This email and any attachments are solely for the use of the addressed recipients and may contain privileged client communication or privileged work product. If you are not the intended recipient and receive this communication, please contact the sender by phone at 816-333-9400, and delete and purge this email from your email system and destroy any other electronic or printed copies. Thank you for your cooperation. [Logo_1_Primary_2Color_sm] Create Amazing. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Remote Control Butterfly Valve
Does anyone know who makes a remote control butterfly valve listed for fire protection? I have checked several of the manufacturers and have had no luck as of yet. Thanks, for the help. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Flow Switch Maximum Surge
From my understanding what they are referring to is city water surges and the potential for false alarms. If you anticipate surges to be greater you would install a retard chamber. I don’t believe it is referring to the system in an actual flow situation. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of James Litvak Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 9:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Flow Switch Maximum Surge All flow switch cut sheets show a maximum surge of 18 fps. Does this mean the velocity of my system at the flow switch has to have a max velocity of 18 fps? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: HVLS Fan clearance
Would the AHJ possibly accept a disconnect for the fans when the sprinklers activate? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: HVLS Fan clearance Any chance they could use some other type of fan that is not specifically HVLS? Matt From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: HVLS Fan clearance Actually, this is a built condition (based on APPROVED PLANS, which doesn’t seem to matter much in some jurisdictions) and the unyielding inspector is insisting on dropping the fans. Can’t affordably revise the sprinklers. SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 7:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: HVLS Fan clearance It looks like the FPRF report that was used to guide NFPA 13 11.1.7 was entirely focused on high-piled storage, so it does seem like the requirements would be overkill here. Most of the test failed when too many sprinklers opened. Would the AHJ be open to allowing the fans to be higher if you gave a larger design area? That could counter the main ‘failure’ source of the testing. Matt From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 7:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: HVLS Fan clearance Good evening Forumites: NFPA 13, 11.1.7 mandates that sprinklers be spaced symmetrically to a High Velocity/Low Speed fan, which may be up to 24’ in diameter, and sprinkler deflectors must be at least 3’ above the blades. We are working on the redevelopment an industrial building with a wide loading dock that’s covered by an overhang with a ceiling at 11’-6” that will be a gathering space. Several 8’ fans are positioned exactly centered between the sprinklers that are extended coverage and no closer to the edge of the blade pattern than 6’. The AHJ is requiring that the 3’ must be observed and the fans look ridiculous hanging down at 8’-0” AFF. So long as sprinklers are outside of conventional fan blade circles, there’s no minimum vertical deflector clearance in the obstruction criteria for spray and residential sprinklers and it seems to me that the 3’ clearance is overkill in this particular application. Does anyone have any experience or are there any other studies out there besides the one from NFPA/FPRF that shed light on the acceptability of sprinklers at less than 3’ vertically above blades where the sprinklers are outside the blade circle? Steve L. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Fire Proofing joists
Would it need to extend the entire length of the bar joist or is the 30% based on the entire area of the joist? When the final bar returned to the deck it was creating an open triangle at the ends of the joist so the bay is not created and would connect to the adjacent bay. Does this still comply with the 30%? Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 3:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Proofing joists I'll take a shot at this but note I’m shooting from the hip (translation - leaves me an out incase there is something I think of later or a Forumite comment that might chnage my opinion). Allow me to start with stating that this requirement has been in the standard longer than my short tenure on NFPA 13 so I can’t elaborate on why 30% was the selected line in the sand. It is a reasonable number though when viewed more so through the perspective of the impact on the discharge pattern (versus activation). Fortunately the question is why is there a difference between the integrity of the boundary between regular obstructed construction and its sub-family panel construction. I might add that we did bring this issue on panel construction to the attention of the committee. When we have structural members greater than 7.5 ft apart but they form a pocket that is no greater than 300 sf, it’s going to capture heat and impact the activation of the sprinklers. Since the ability to capture heat is a function of the integrity of the boundaries, there you go. NFPA dictated caveat: this opinion is mine (and maybe mine alone) and should not be considered a formal interpretation of NFPA or any of its technical committees. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org<http://www.firesprinkler.org/> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:26 AM, Kyle.Montgomery mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com>> wrote: Somewhat of a sidetrack: Can someone explain to me why bar joists with fire proofing can be considered obstructed construction when they are 69% open, with no apparent restrictions on joist spacing, depth, etc but for panel construction "there should be no unfilled penetrations in the cross-sectional area of the bounding structural members, including the interface at the roof"? -Kyle M ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Fire Proofing joists
Out of curiosity as I have never seen fireproofing done in this way. Could you consider it as obstructed construction or just an obstruction? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 10:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Fire Proofing joists When it’s sprayed solid like that it’s an obstruction since it interferes with the discharge pattern. When I’ve dealt with it, the GC wanted us to place all our hangers on the joists before they were sprayed so we didn’t damage the integrity of the coating by chipping it away to place clamps. Be sure they don’t stick you with repair costs from you having to get through that stuff to place beam clamps. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Phillips, Mark Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 10:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Fire Proofing joists Greetings I would like to get options on a trend we have been seeing in our area of the country. Fire proofers have been utilizing a system of mesh secured to open joists then spraying on fire proofing. The joists can either be closely spaced or 5 to 7 feet apart. The question is should the mesh then be considered a solid obstruction? There is no consistency on the spay insulation it’s just spray and go. We are also being told by the GC that we must wait to hang till the fire proofing is complete and we cannot be located in the joists. (picture attached) I would like to hear opinions and others experiences with this situation. Thanks in advance Sent from Mail<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.microsoft.com_fwlink_-3FLinkId-3D550986=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=6OHYVzdEkp-rqgLcLINMzFCTPr93lxdu1M0JrRDF7nQ=> for Windows 10 [cid:image002.jpg@01D42403.21B13370] Mark Phillips Vice President of Fire Protection , Kirlin Carolinas, LLC t: 919-526-1584 | m: 919-610-0490 mphill...@jjkllc.com<mailto:mphill...@jjkllc.com> | https://kirlingroup.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__kirlingroup.com_=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=_AIcjetubLiHbRYD-urw2wD3nwDoMUVzvcJD7xwxqmI=> 8000 Brownleigh Dr , Raleigh , NC 27617 [cid:image003.png@01D42403.21B13370]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_KirlinGroup=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=6A5yPbug14iivLxqin37xxfzXWQS-tnfLCBzh41TuZY=> [cid:image004.png@01D42403.21B13370]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_kirlinllc=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=eEPNrmUz_VsZyQKLpqey-nrrB_JIO2Ox8hRcJcuNyo4=> [cid:image005.png@01D42403.21B13370]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_company_133201_=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=Pthw0wm2fIf5PWFexzvbhRRevVxmK_8s-8kwEntNkRc=> [cid:image006.jpg@01D42403.21B13370]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.surveymonkey.com_r_KirlinCarolinaSurvey=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=E4tEecbsT0gruViHuNZEXcEwYatv6-sDyBkiu7b0weY=> [cid:image007.jpg@01D42403.21B13370]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.kirlingroup.com_join-2Dour-2Dteam-2Dcareers_-23opportunity=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=wew5e2SoOmDef4VxFVh88fyk80LaEyx0Z2NfVY7fQcw=> [cid:image008.jpg@01D42403.21B13370]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__kirlingroup.com_=DwMFaQ=OgZOSER8c1RLeytEexU279Q2qk0jVwkrOdYe5iSi-kk=6qYbbLx8x0UrMujmEGNoh-2hzoFD2d1EB5d2sQF0_OI=9g3YkXH_KWe9tuUgCaH0ezuQimPIr14lVpqPdDon1N4=_AIcjetubLiHbRYD-urw2wD3nwDoMUVzvcJD7xwxqmI=> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that
RE: Robotic Parking
Travis is definitely right. We have a concept we use in NYC, as we run into this all the time, and in fact I am working on a building right now that is four level stackers. With that being said it is always a best guess without the guidance and the EOR should guide you. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 11:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Robotic Parking You are going to have to get the EOR that created your “engineered” drawing involved to give you a hazard since it doesn’t seem to be addressed in NFPA 13. You may want to try to contact the company that designed the robotic car system and see if they can give any guidance. I bet your EOR has a comment to design to NFPA 13 and figures he is off the hook. Just kick it back to them. It’s Friday. Make it his weekend project to do his job of giving the proper criteria. I bet that goes over well. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Jul 13, 2018, at 8:40 AM, John Irwin mailto:jo...@cfcsystems.com>> wrote: This is 7 levels of cars stacked vertically. We are in the 2013 edition of NFPA 13. John Irwin, C.E.T. – jo...@cfcsystems.com<mailto:jo...@cfcsystems.com> Commercial Fire and Communications Fire Sprinkler Specialist – NICET ID: 134153 Cell: 727-282-9243 From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 11:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Robotic Parking If this is the “car stackers” mentioned in 2016 edition, then it is only for 2 levels high. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Jul 13, 2018, at 8:35 AM, Nick Maneen mailto:nman...@sentryfp.com>> wrote: 2016 Edition of 13 calls these Extra Hazard. These are a challenge to say the least. Good luck. I wish I had a better answer for you. Nick Maneen 704-791-7789 On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 11:33 AM John Irwin mailto:jo...@cfcsystems.com>> wrote: Anyone have any experience with these new robotic parking buildings? My “engineered” plans are pretty bad. No hazard is given. I am going to assume the same as a parking garage? I don’t see this as being too challenging, but I am wondering if there is some huge pitfall that I am not aware of. It’s pretty much 7 floors of this …. The top floor doesn’t show the center area protected. I’m wondering if it needs to be … John Irwin ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Robotic Parking
NFPA does not have any guidance for stackers that high, like Travis had said it is only good up to two. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 11:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Robotic Parking This is 7 levels of cars stacked vertically. We are in the 2013 edition of NFPA 13. John Irwin, C.E.T. – jo...@cfcsystems.com<mailto:jo...@cfcsystems.com> Commercial Fire and Communications Fire Sprinkler Specialist – NICET ID: 134153 Cell: 727-282-9243 From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 11:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Robotic Parking If this is the “car stackers” mentioned in 2016 edition, then it is only for 2 levels high. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Jul 13, 2018, at 8:35 AM, Nick Maneen mailto:nman...@sentryfp.com>> wrote: 2016 Edition of 13 calls these Extra Hazard. These are a challenge to say the least. Good luck. I wish I had a better answer for you. Nick Maneen 704-791-7789 On Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 11:33 AM John Irwin mailto:jo...@cfcsystems.com>> wrote: Anyone have any experience with these new robotic parking buildings? My “engineered” plans are pretty bad. No hazard is given. I am going to assume the same as a parking garage? I don’t see this as being too challenging, but I am wondering if there is some huge pitfall that I am not aware of. It’s pretty much 7 floors of this …. [cid:image003.png@01D41A9E.74D94CE0] The top floor doesn’t show the center area protected. I’m wondering if it needs to be … John Irwin ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Robotic Parking
Is this regarding stackers on multiple levels or a stacker that has (7) levels of cars? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Friday, July 13, 2018 11:34 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Robotic Parking Anyone have any experience with these new robotic parking buildings? My "engineered" plans are pretty bad. No hazard is given. I am going to assume the same as a parking garage? I don't see this as being too challenging, but I am wondering if there is some huge pitfall that I am not aware of. It's pretty much 7 floors of this [cid:image002.png@01D41A9D.ACCCD640] The top floor doesn't show the center area protected. I'm wondering if it needs to be ... John Irwin ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Airline feeds to freezers
Yes it would be an upright 25.2, and your right all of the storage and discharge requirements appear to be based on FMG. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Airline feeds to freezers I believe it was Viking and as far as I know they are still made. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Airline feeds to freezers Do they still make the ESFR that is specially listed for use with anti-freeze? I can’t remember who made that system… Matt From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 1:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Airline feeds to freezers Mike, I assume you mean the V4603 25.2K upright, correct? That won't fly as the AHJ does not recognize FMG protection schemes unless they meet or exceed NFPA. Its a whole thing that will not likely change, so this is a non-option. Matt, You can use bottled nitrogen (and we were planning on doing that to initially fill the system instead of the quick fill on the N2 generator) but per my reading of 7.9.2.7 you still have to run a line thru the freezer for ice plug checks. I'm with you, it makes no sense since you should never see an ice plug with N2, but the code is the code. Benjamin Young On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Mike Stossel mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: Ben, Would it help in anyway if you used the Victaulic LP46 heads? You maybe able to protect the freezers and the dry storage areas with the same dry pipe valve without in-rack sprinklers. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Airline feeds to freezers I'm doing a blast freezer that sits about 150 feet remotely from where the riser is located. I'm doing a DIPA with IRAS. If you really want to know, its a class 3 commodity stored in multiple-row racks 26' wide. Bldg is 25 feet to roof, storage height is 20 feet. This is in the northeast, so running ESFR is a non-starter. This is being done under the 2013 edition of the code, and I'm having some issues with trying to comply with the stuff in 7.9, especially 7.9.2.7 First, my DIPA requires the air tie-in to be fed from the system trim (DDX) so using figure 7.9.2.7.1.1(a) is out. So my air supply run just doubled in length. Now, there are other freezers on the way to this freezer that are a lot closer. Could I put my air lines in that freezer and still meet the intent of 7.9.2.7, or is this going to be too confusing to have the ice plug check lines in another location? Please do not suggest relocating the pre-action valve closer to the freezer, this isn't an option for the owner. Secondly, who thought it was OK to allow nitrogen systems to only require one ice plug check line? If the N2 system can't keep up with the demand or has other issues it will start pumping in the same moist air direct from its air compressor and be no different. I don't get that, but OK. I'm pretty much 100% committed at this point to using a Dry Air Pack since I don't have to run an intake line over to the cooler either. I haven't seen anything on this being allowed on N2 systems unless they're listed for freezer use. Does that exist? Here's some other info: We are also doing a dry system for a dry-goods storage warehouse that sits next to the new freezer. Both are only connected to other freezers and coolers on the property, so there is no other room or place to put our valves besides the existing pump room. We are also running all this bulk pipe outside! Mainly along exposed exterior building columns (don't know how that happens, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth) and then we will have to install a couple of pipe stands. This is all galvanized, and will be the two mains: one for dry and one for DIPA. Owner doesn't want DIPA for the dry goods warehouse because of detection and expense for IRAS detection. And of course, estimator didn't figure on ru
RE: Airline feeds to freezers
I believe it was Viking and as far as I know they are still made. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Airline feeds to freezers Do they still make the ESFR that is specially listed for use with anti-freeze? I can’t remember who made that system… Matt From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 1:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Airline feeds to freezers Mike, I assume you mean the V4603 25.2K upright, correct? That won't fly as the AHJ does not recognize FMG protection schemes unless they meet or exceed NFPA. Its a whole thing that will not likely change, so this is a non-option. Matt, You can use bottled nitrogen (and we were planning on doing that to initially fill the system instead of the quick fill on the N2 generator) but per my reading of 7.9.2.7 you still have to run a line thru the freezer for ice plug checks. I'm with you, it makes no sense since you should never see an ice plug with N2, but the code is the code. Benjamin Young On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Mike Stossel mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: Ben, Would it help in anyway if you used the Victaulic LP46 heads? You maybe able to protect the freezers and the dry storage areas with the same dry pipe valve without in-rack sprinklers. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Airline feeds to freezers I'm doing a blast freezer that sits about 150 feet remotely from where the riser is located. I'm doing a DIPA with IRAS. If you really want to know, its a class 3 commodity stored in multiple-row racks 26' wide. Bldg is 25 feet to roof, storage height is 20 feet. This is in the northeast, so running ESFR is a non-starter. This is being done under the 2013 edition of the code, and I'm having some issues with trying to comply with the stuff in 7.9, especially 7.9.2.7 First, my DIPA requires the air tie-in to be fed from the system trim (DDX) so using figure 7.9.2.7.1.1(a) is out. So my air supply run just doubled in length. Now, there are other freezers on the way to this freezer that are a lot closer. Could I put my air lines in that freezer and still meet the intent of 7.9.2.7, or is this going to be too confusing to have the ice plug check lines in another location? Please do not suggest relocating the pre-action valve closer to the freezer, this isn't an option for the owner. Secondly, who thought it was OK to allow nitrogen systems to only require one ice plug check line? If the N2 system can't keep up with the demand or has other issues it will start pumping in the same moist air direct from its air compressor and be no different. I don't get that, but OK. I'm pretty much 100% committed at this point to using a Dry Air Pack since I don't have to run an intake line over to the cooler either. I haven't seen anything on this being allowed on N2 systems unless they're listed for freezer use. Does that exist? Here's some other info: We are also doing a dry system for a dry-goods storage warehouse that sits next to the new freezer. Both are only connected to other freezers and coolers on the property, so there is no other room or place to put our valves besides the existing pump room. We are also running all this bulk pipe outside! Mainly along exposed exterior building columns (don't know how that happens, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth) and then we will have to install a couple of pipe stands. This is all galvanized, and will be the two mains: one for dry and one for DIPA. Owner doesn't want DIPA for the dry goods warehouse because of detection and expense for IRAS detection. And of course, estimator didn't figure on running any extra air line piping since he threw an N2 system on there! So no I'm trying to figure out a cost efficient way of meeting the code on this one. Oh wait, isn't that what we do every day anyway? And hey, if you can't help me out on this one, no sweat (haha) and enjoy our 4th of July tomorrow.! Thanks all, Ben Young Benjamin Young ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.o
RE: Airline feeds to freezers
Ben, Would it help in anyway if you used the Victaulic LP46 heads? You maybe able to protect the freezers and the dry storage areas with the same dry pipe valve without in-rack sprinklers. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Airline feeds to freezers I'm doing a blast freezer that sits about 150 feet remotely from where the riser is located. I'm doing a DIPA with IRAS. If you really want to know, its a class 3 commodity stored in multiple-row racks 26' wide. Bldg is 25 feet to roof, storage height is 20 feet. This is in the northeast, so running ESFR is a non-starter. This is being done under the 2013 edition of the code, and I'm having some issues with trying to comply with the stuff in 7.9, especially 7.9.2.7 First, my DIPA requires the air tie-in to be fed from the system trim (DDX) so using figure 7.9.2.7.1.1(a) is out. So my air supply run just doubled in length. Now, there are other freezers on the way to this freezer that are a lot closer. Could I put my air lines in that freezer and still meet the intent of 7.9.2.7, or is this going to be too confusing to have the ice plug check lines in another location? Please do not suggest relocating the pre-action valve closer to the freezer, this isn't an option for the owner. Secondly, who thought it was OK to allow nitrogen systems to only require one ice plug check line? If the N2 system can't keep up with the demand or has other issues it will start pumping in the same moist air direct from its air compressor and be no different. I don't get that, but OK. I'm pretty much 100% committed at this point to using a Dry Air Pack since I don't have to run an intake line over to the cooler either. I haven't seen anything on this being allowed on N2 systems unless they're listed for freezer use. Does that exist? Here's some other info: We are also doing a dry system for a dry-goods storage warehouse that sits next to the new freezer. Both are only connected to other freezers and coolers on the property, so there is no other room or place to put our valves besides the existing pump room. We are also running all this bulk pipe outside! Mainly along exposed exterior building columns (don't know how that happens, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth) and then we will have to install a couple of pipe stands. This is all galvanized, and will be the two mains: one for dry and one for DIPA. Owner doesn't want DIPA for the dry goods warehouse because of detection and expense for IRAS detection. And of course, estimator didn't figure on running any extra air line piping since he threw an N2 system on there! So no I'm trying to figure out a cost efficient way of meeting the code on this one. Oh wait, isn't that what we do every day anyway? And hey, if you can't help me out on this one, no sweat (haha) and enjoy our 4th of July tomorrow.! Thanks all, Ben Young Benjamin Young ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Fire Department Connections
I believe Potter Roemer carries them. I have previously gotten one rated for 500psi from them. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 1:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Department Connections Can anyone point me in the right direction. We are looking for a fire department connection that is listed for more than 300 pounds. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> Web www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 3" FDC
This is typical for my New York City clients. Most of them use a 3"x3"x6" flush mount made by Croker. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Michael Goodis Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 3:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: 3" FDC They don't make one, and the cloest you will find is a 3"" pipe to the FDC Snoot/Connection. But it will still be 2 ½". Good luck. Michael Goodis Salesman, Project Manager IL#000635 NICET#135586 Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC 3200 Mike Padgett HWY Augusta, GA 30906 Office- (706) 790-3473 Cell- (706) 220-8822 Fax: (706) 738-2119 From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Richard Mote Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: 3" FDC Here's another one for the books AHJ requires a 3" Siamese Fire Department Connection. I've checked Manufactures so far and am sticking out. Below is the exact text of their response. Anyone got any brilliant ideas? A. The required Fire Department Connection (FDC) for Plymouth Township is a Siamese 3" female NST with covers. The location indicated is acceptable. Richard Mote Design Manager [http://www.rowesprinkler.com/emailsig/Email_Sig_Logo.jpg] W: 877.324.ROWE * F: 570.837.6335 * C:570.541.2685 PO Box 407 * 7993 US Route 522, Suite 1 * Middleburg, PA 17842 505A Cornerstone Court * Hillsborough, NC 27278 RoweSprinkler.com * rich...@rowesprinkler.com<mailto:rich...@rowesprinkler.com> *** Confidentiality Notice *** This email and any attachments thereto may contain information that is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the addressee. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at rich...@rowesprinkler.com<mailto:rich...@rowesprinkler.com> or by telephone at 570-837-7647 and delete the message and any attachments permanently from your system. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Ceiling Grids and Flex Drops
In the installation manual it specifically says for use on ceiling suspension systems installed in accordance with ASTM C635 and ASTM C636. Is the AHJ looking for something specific or did they not read the installation manual? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Richard Mote Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 11:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Ceiling Grids and Flex Drops I have a AHJ that is questioning the use of Flex Drops especially the Victaulic ones. He says that they are so flexible that when a sprinkler goes off the jet effect is going to lift the sprinkler up through the ceiling. I told him that the drops are mechanically attached to the ceiling grid and in order to lift up they would have to lift the entire weight of the ceiling grid, ceiling tiles, the lights and HVAC diffusers. His answer prove, it either by letter from the manufacturer or from someone a lot higher up the food chain than either he or I am. Or something specific in NFPA 13 that says he is wrong. Richard Mote Design Manager [http://www.rowesprinkler.com/emailsig/Email_Sig_Logo.jpg] W: 877.324.ROWE * F: 570.837.6335 PO Box 407 * 7993 US Route 522, Suite 1 * Middleburg, PA 17842 505 A Cornerstone Court * Hillsborough, NC 27278 RoweSprinkler.com * rich...@rowesprinkler.com<mailto:rich...@rowesprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR closer than 8'
Is the building 30'0" high or lower? If so would expanding your spacing to 12'0" help? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of JD Gamble Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: ESFR closer than 8' I need some clarity on this one Spacing ESFR 25.2K PNTs on 10 x 10 spacing in 30' bays @ 16" below ceiling. Line are equally spaced 5' from center of 36" deep beams. I have an area where a full height wall is 11'-6" from a beam requiring an additional row of ESFR. When spacing the additional sprinklers at 8' between branch lines it places the additional sprinklers less than 8' from the adjacent line along the other side of the solid steel beam. Is the beam sufficient (only 20" below the sprinkler) to prevent skipping? Can I be less than minimum spacing (64sq.ft.) with the beam separating sprinklers? Scratching my head here. Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan JD Gamble jgam...@lssofsheridan.com<mailto:jgam...@lssofsheridan.com> (307) 763-3361 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sprinkler 1/2" Extension Nipples
Yes, I believe the language was added in the 2016 edition section 6.4.8 allowing up to a 2" single fitting length without including them in the hydraulic calculation. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 9:37 AM To: Sprinkler Forum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sprinkler 1/2" Extension Nipples Are 1/2" Sprinkler Extension Nipples allowed in NFPA-13 to be used when changing out existing concealed sprinklers with new concealed sprinklers? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Software
I am having a tremendous amount of problems performing 3D coordination's. It is taking me approximately 3 times longer than the old flat way of a standard coordination overlay. I know a lot of you are using AutoSprink and HydraCAD, but I am not. I am a SprinkCAD user and at this time cannot switch to another platform. I use Navisworks Freedom viewer to see the clash locations, and do the best I can to measure and move out of the way and submit the new model to see if I guessed right. I did not switch to SprinkCAD 3D as of yet as I have not had time to build a brand new database that incorporates products other than what TYCO supports. In all honesty I don't know that it would make any difference as it appears that I would be doing the same guess work that I am doing now. Does anyone else on the forum use SprinkCAD or have you all switched over? If you are a SprinkCAD user did you switch to the 3D version and was it helpful and worth all the time of constructing a new database? Does anyone have any helpful hints on how to speed up the process or is it just me or the software that I am using? I am OK with hearing that it is just me, that means that I just have to work harder at it and constructive criticism is always welcome. It just seems that something that was supposed to be better, it is much more difficult and time consuming and that you almost can't charge enough money to cover the time it takes. I know I have to embrace it as this is the future, but I am really struggling with it. Thanks and any help that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe
Yes, you can add in the water supply to the suction side of the pump. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe Is that 150psi of pressure boost? So if you put in 50psi, you can get 200 @ 1000 out? Matt From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 8:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe I believe to be certified under the guidelines of NFPA 1901 the minimum the pumper would supply is 150psi @1,000gpm, 200psi @ 750gpm and 250psi @ 500gpm. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe Demand was only 750. Typically pumper truck will deliver more psi at only 750 gpm. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2018, at 6:35 AM, Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com>> wrote: Looks like hydra cad and also looks like he is over the standard pumper trucks 150 PSI…..unless your pumper trucks pump more than 150 PSI I would have him look at it again Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com> www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe What software package is it? Matt From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Dewayne Martinez <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe I am not used to seeing this calc program so I may be looking at this wrong but I don’t see a water supply on this graph. Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TOTAL Mechanical Building Integrity W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ From: Dewayne Martinez <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Dewayne Martinez <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe I initially put in a supply of 150psi at 1000gpm and then modify it until I get a 0 PSI cushion. Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TO
RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe
I believe to be certified under the guidelines of NFPA 1901 the minimum the pumper would supply is 150psi @1,000gpm, 200psi @ 750gpm and 250psi @ 500gpm. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe Demand was only 750. Typically pumper truck will deliver more psi at only 750 gpm. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2018, at 6:35 AM, Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com>> wrote: Looks like hydra cad and also looks like he is over the standard pumper trucks 150 PSI…..unless your pumper trucks pump more than 150 PSI I would have him look at it again Rocci Cetani III, CET Senior Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com> www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe What software package is it? Matt From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Dewayne Martinez <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe I am not used to seeing this calc program so I may be looking at this wrong but I don’t see a water supply on this graph. Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TOTAL Mechanical Building Integrity W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ From: Dewayne Martinez <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Dewayne Martinez <dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe I initially put in a supply of 150psi at 1000gpm and then modify it until I get a 0 PSI cushion. Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TOTAL Mechanical Building Integrity W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 6:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Supply calculation for manual-wet standpipe When you say that you tweak it to find the actual demand – does your software not tell you the psi input required to supply the hose demand you request at the standpipe outlets? I usually see ‘required pressure’ as an output of the software no matter what the input is. Matt From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez S
RE: Residential water storage
This is true, but it is an unrequired secondary supply for the house. The house has a public water supply that is primary to the residence, the fire pump would only be used in the case of an emergency. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Phong - Indochine Engineering Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Note at the time that water of the swimming pool is being drained out for replacing, there will be no water supplied to the fire pump. Regards, Le Vu Phong Mobile: +84 (0) 902 363 525 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: 19 March, 2018 9:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Yes. You could get your water supply and positive pressure to the pump at the same time. I would assume a house that size would have a big enough pool to satisfy the demand of the system. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Are you suggesting I use the pool as my water supply? John Irwin DynaFire Inc. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage I assume a house that large has a swimming pool. Is the pump equipment located in a pool house or in the basement? If it is in the basement you maybe able to cut a tee into one of the lines to gain a supply to a standard residential pump. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:33 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Yeah .. that's a concern I have as well. John Irwin DynaFire Inc. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage When I hear 'hurricane', I also think swampy soil. It might be worth looking into the logistics of a buried tank. It would be a bummer if it popped out of the ground during a hurricane. Matt -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com> Subject: Re: Residential water storage Bury a pressure tank On 3/19/2018 9:41 AM, John Irwin wrote: > I swear after 25 years in sprinklers I am amazed at how often new > situations are still presented to me … > > > > Here’s my situation … 22,000 sqft single family home. The owners lost > water completely in the last hurricane and want to make sure that the > new sprinkler system will continue to have a water supply if this > happens again. So they want to bury a grey water tank in the yard > that’s specifically for fire sprinkler supply. What considerations do > I even start with on this? It’s a 13D system, so do I have to take > NFPA 22 into consideration? How do I get water out of an underground > tank? Standard well pump? Should I not even bother with a city supply > if I am feeding off of a tank? Obviously money doesn’t seem to be a > consideration … > > > > > > > > > > > > John Irwin > > Fire Sprinkler Specialist > > DynaFire, Inc. > > 727-282-9243 – Cell > > > > *“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not > dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption on > our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider on our > business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him a favour by serving > him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.”* > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org/attachments/20180319/3cc2de75/attachment.html> > ___
RE: Residential water storage
Yes. You could get your water supply and positive pressure to the pump at the same time. I would assume a house that size would have a big enough pool to satisfy the demand of the system. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:38 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Are you suggesting I use the pool as my water supply? John Irwin DynaFire Inc. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage I assume a house that large has a swimming pool. Is the pump equipment located in a pool house or in the basement? If it is in the basement you maybe able to cut a tee into one of the lines to gain a supply to a standard residential pump. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:33 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Yeah .. that's a concern I have as well. John Irwin DynaFire Inc. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage When I hear 'hurricane', I also think swampy soil. It might be worth looking into the logistics of a buried tank. It would be a bummer if it popped out of the ground during a hurricane. Matt -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com> Subject: Re: Residential water storage Bury a pressure tank On 3/19/2018 9:41 AM, John Irwin wrote: > I swear after 25 years in sprinklers I am amazed at how often new > situations are still presented to me … > > > > Here’s my situation … 22,000 sqft single family home. The owners lost > water completely in the last hurricane and want to make sure that the > new sprinkler system will continue to have a water supply if this > happens again. So they want to bury a grey water tank in the yard > that’s specifically for fire sprinkler supply. What considerations do > I even start with on this? It’s a 13D system, so do I have to take > NFPA 22 into consideration? How do I get water out of an underground > tank? Standard well pump? Should I not even bother with a city supply > if I am feeding off of a tank? Obviously money doesn’t seem to be a > consideration … > > > > > > > > > > > > John Irwin > > Fire Sprinkler Specialist > > DynaFire, Inc. > > 727-282-9243 – Cell > > > > *“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not > dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption on > our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider on our > business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him a favour by serving > him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.”* > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org/attachments/20180319/3cc2de75/attachment.html> > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > -- 11351 Pearl Road / Suite 101 Strongsville, Ohio 44136 Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601 / Vince Sabolik / -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180319/8985db05/attachment.html> -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20914 x WTFP Logo NEW1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30521 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180319/8985db05/attachment.jpg> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listin
RE: Residential water storage
I assume a house that large has a swimming pool. Is the pump equipment located in a pool house or in the basement? If it is in the basement you maybe able to cut a tee into one of the lines to gain a supply to a standard residential pump. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:33 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Yeah .. that's a concern I have as well. John Irwin DynaFire Inc. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage When I hear 'hurricane', I also think swampy soil. It might be worth looking into the logistics of a buried tank. It would be a bummer if it popped out of the ground during a hurricane. Matt -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com> Subject: Re: Residential water storage Bury a pressure tank On 3/19/2018 9:41 AM, John Irwin wrote: > I swear after 25 years in sprinklers I am amazed at how often new > situations are still presented to me … > > > > Here’s my situation … 22,000 sqft single family home. The owners lost > water completely in the last hurricane and want to make sure that the > new sprinkler system will continue to have a water supply if this > happens again. So they want to bury a grey water tank in the yard > that’s specifically for fire sprinkler supply. What considerations do > I even start with on this? It’s a 13D system, so do I have to take > NFPA 22 into consideration? How do I get water out of an underground > tank? Standard well pump? Should I not even bother with a city supply > if I am feeding off of a tank? Obviously money doesn’t seem to be a > consideration … > > > > > > > > > > > > John Irwin > > Fire Sprinkler Specialist > > DynaFire, Inc. > > 727-282-9243 – Cell > > > > *“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not > dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption on > our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider on our > business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him a favour by serving > him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.”* > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org/attachments/20180319/3cc2de75/attachment.html> > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > -- 11351 Pearl Road / Suite 101 Strongsville, Ohio 44136 Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601 / Vince Sabolik / -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180319/8985db05/attachment.html> -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20914 x WTFP Logo NEW1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30521 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180319/8985db05/attachment.jpg> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Residential water storage
I don't know if this will be helpful, but a company by the name of NAFFCO makes a small vertical turbine fire pump with a flow of 50gpm and a pressure range from 42-188psi. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential water storage Nope. I offered that. They are adamant that they don't give up any floor space.¯\_(ツ)_/¯ John Irwin DynaFire Inc. -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential water storage Instead of underground tank, can you sell them on a Talco Home Hydrant tank and pump system? They have a small foot print. Put an automatic float valve on it and you have your city supply being used should it be available. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 19, 2018, at 6:41 AM, John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com> wrote: > > I swear after 25 years in sprinklers I am amazed at how often new > situations are still presented to me … > > > > Here’s my situation … 22,000 sqft single family home. The owners lost > water completely in the last hurricane and want to make sure that the > new sprinkler system will continue to have a water supply if this > happens again. So they want to bury a grey water tank in the yard > that’s specifically for fire sprinkler supply. What considerations do > I even start with on this? It’s a 13D system, so do I have to take > NFPA 22 into consideration? How do I get water out of an underground > tank? Standard well pump? Should I not even bother with a city supply > if I am feeding off of a tank? Obviously money doesn’t seem to be a > consideration … > > > > > > > > > > > > John Irwin > > Fire Sprinkler Specialist > > DynaFire, Inc. > > 727-282-9243 – Cell > > > > *“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not > dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption on > our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider on our > business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him a favour by serving > him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.”* > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org/attachments/20180319/3cc2de75/attachment.html> > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180319/7e94da13/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Extended Coverage O-H Dry Sidewall Sprinklers
To the best of my knowledge TYCO is the only one. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 9:42 AM To: Sprinkler Forum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Extended Coverage O-H Dry Sidewall Sprinklers Who else makes a Extended Coverage Ordinary Hazard Dry Sidewall sprinkler besides TYCO? Mike -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180315/3eb1cb2d/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
New Sprinkler Design
I was asked to do a presentation next week on the basic design of fire sprinkler systems. They essentially are asking for an overview touching on the entire thought process we go through when developing the system. Going from hazard type, sprinkler selection, type of system and layout (tree, loop, grid), basic hydraulics and so on. Does anyone happen to have any power points or other documents that will help guide me through this presentation? They are asking for the presentation to last approximately one hour. Any help that anyone can give me with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180313/444a70d6/attachment.html> -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8535 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180313/444a70d6/attachment.png> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray
Not sure if this will help you in anyway, but what about section D.1.1.1.1 in NFPA 13. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 6:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray The door is part of the assembly but, I just found out this is the area where they were intending to Std Spray in lieu of WS. Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection (760) 722-2722 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 3:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray There isn't any prescribed protection for door glazing. There is a window sprinkler, I think it was by Tyco that when installed per its listing was considered equivalent to 2-hour protection but that was for fixed glazing and with some restrictions. Is this door part of a fire rated assembly or area separation? Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 Direct Extension 77540 CH2M is now Jacobs. 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com> http://www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Glazing Protection with standard spray [EXTERNAL] Okay, Is been about a decade since I've dealt glazing protection. Is there any information on protecting window with standard spray sprinklers. I've been told this was direction was approved by the AHJ. Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection (760) 722-2722 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Help Finding ESFR upright greater than K17
You may also want to look at the Victaulic LP-46 (model V4603). It has a 25.2 K-Factor although it does have specific guidelines on how and when it can be used, but it may fit your needs. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Nicky Marshall Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Help Finding ESFR upright greater than K17 Most of the responses do not seem to have answered your question if you are specifically looking for an upright ESFR sprinkler. To my knowledge, the K17 Tyco TY7126 is the biggest upright ESFR unless you go Extended Coverage K25: TY9128 and Viking VK595. If you can go standard response (CMSA) then there are more choices. K17: TY7153, TY7151, VK580 and Reliable RA1124. Then K25 VK598 and Victaulic V4603. Nicky Marshall Southern Regional Manager PROTECH DESIGN LIMITED Specialist Fire Protection Consultants Phone: +64 (0)3 579 5577 extn 2 Mobile: +64 (0)21 433 488 Email: ni...@protechdesign.co.nz<mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> Skype: nicky-marshall Web :www.protechdesign.co.nz Address:105A Alabama Rd, Redwoodtown, Blenheim 7201, NZ Postal: PO Box 4022, Redwood Village, Blenheim 7242, NZ "I always wondered why somebody doesn't do something about that. Then I realised I was somebody" Lily Tomlin From: Jeff Polke [mailto:jpo...@gcioutdoor.com] Sent: Tuesday, 13 February 2018 5:30 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Help Finding ESFR upright greater than K17 Good morning all. I am looking for an expert in ESFR sprinkler heads to help me find a ESFR upright head with at least a K factor 17(not 16.8). There does not seem to be other companies that make these ESFR other Tyco. Please let me know. Thanks. Jeffrey Polke Co-President jpo...@gcioutdoor.com<mailto:jpo...@gcioutdoor.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Small Air Compressor?
I believe GAST makes a tankless 1/6HP that goes to 90 gallons. It should be model number 1LAA-46S-M100GX. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of BILL MENSTER Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 2:24 PM To: sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Small Air Compressor? Does anyone know of a small air compressor available for a pre-action system? I have a very small pre-action system (3 heads) with only 5 gallon capacity. The smallest riser mount compressor I can find is for up to 110 gal. Looking to save a few bucks if possible. Thanks Bill Menster WFM Consulting ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Underground Main Between 2 Attached Building Areas
Yes, I have done this on many occasions, especially in large warehouses. I have run the underground main into the pump room, after the pump drop down and run underground to multiple riser locations. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Cordiner Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 10:05 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Underground Main Between 2 Attached Building Areas Good morning Forum, I have a situation I've never come across before that I'm hoping someone here may have. We are working on a Phase 2 addition of a school. Essentially we have a rectangular shaped building in existence (fully sprinklered) and a new rectangular building being added on the end, to form a letter T if you will. Current incoming service is in the existing building at the furthest corner away from the new building area. Originally phase 2 was proposed to have the sprinkler mains come back to this fire service room but now they do not want to open ceilings to do so and the existing main is not sized for this new area. The owners/architects have proposed teeing off the existing main after the back flow preventer, dropping below the floor and elbowing back outside. They then want to run this main underground along side the building and then pop back into the new space when it penetrates the foundation wall at the intersection of the new wall. The idea of installing mains so come into, then back out of, and then into a building again seems like a bad plan to me. After looking throughout the codes (IBC 2015, NFPA 13 2013, 14 2013, etc) I can't seem to find anything stating this would not be permitted. From what we can tell now, and it may change, this will end up as 1 building so the idea of another service will face resistance with this AHJ. Has anyone ever come across a situation like this before? Regards, Wayne T. Cordiner Jr. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: compressor size
The air compressor are sized by the system capacity, and each manufacturer will give you sizing charts. For instance one of the manufacturers states that a system with a capacity of 125 gallons will need their 1/6hp air compressor. So basically select a manufacturer and go to their sizing charts. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 3:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: compressor size Is there an easy equation out there to see how many CFM I require to fill a dry system, I am sizing an air compressor and would like to ensure I do not over or undersize it. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca<mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> Web www.phaserfire.ca<http://www.phaserfire.ca> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Standpipe Pressure Question.
So the building does not have a sprinkler system? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Standpipe Pressure Question. The highest story is above 30 feet. Thus are adopted IFC chapter 9 section 905.3.1 apply. Standpipes to be automatic wet. Thanks From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 2:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Standpipe Pressure Question. How many stories is the building? I'm going the same way as Nick did with his question. Yes, 100 PSI came in 1993. SML From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Don Casey Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Standpipe Pressure Question. When did 14 bring in the 100psi requirement? 93? (or is my imagination running in the wrong direction). If the building was constructed prior to the 100psi requirement, is there an argument that you're maintaining the level of performance of the originally designed system? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt Sent: 2017/11/01 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Standpipe Pressure Question. Question for the forum. I have a complete renovation of a school. They are required to have 3 standpipes installed. The designers approached me and asked if one of the standpipes could have a reduced pressure. The reason is because then they would have to upgrade the electrical power to the pump. This in turn would make them upgrade the power for the backup generator. This would create an economic problem for the school district. In researching NFPA 14. I found that the minimum residual pressure at 2.5 in. should be 100psi for each standpipe. Am I interpreting this correct. They asked that 1 standpipe be only 65psi (doesn't sound correct). NFPA 14 says that standpipes shall provide 250 gallons. All standpipie hose connections to be class 1 systems. Am I missing something. Thanks Tom Reinhardt Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer Skokie Fire Department 7424 Niles Center Road Skokie, IL 60077 Office: 847-982-5342 thomas.reinha...@skokie.org<mailto:thomas.reinha...@skokie.org> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Standpipe Pressure Question.
It has been my experience that the pressure requirement between 65psi and 100psi varies from city to city and state to state. Is the building a high rise? Can the standpipes be classified as manual wet and not automatic and be based on the pumper trucks capabilities from the FDC instead of the fire pumps? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Reinhardt Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Standpipe Pressure Question. Question for the forum. I have a complete renovation of a school. They are required to have 3 standpipes installed. The designers approached me and asked if one of the standpipes could have a reduced pressure. The reason is because then they would have to upgrade the electrical power to the pump. This in turn would make them upgrade the power for the backup generator. This would create an economic problem for the school district. In researching NFPA 14. I found that the minimum residual pressure at 2.5 in. should be 100psi for each standpipe. Am I interpreting this correct. They asked that 1 standpipe be only 65psi (doesn't sound correct). NFPA 14 says that standpipes shall provide 250 gallons. All standpipie hose connections to be class 1 systems. Am I missing something. Thanks Tom Reinhardt Fire Inspector/Plan Reviewer Skokie Fire Department 7424 Niles Center Road Skokie, IL 60077 Office: 847-982-5342 thomas.reinha...@skokie.org<mailto:thomas.reinha...@skokie.org> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Hose valve location
In the 2007 edition of NFPA 14 it is section 7.3.1.1. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:58 AM To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Hose valve location I was asked about Code (or Standard) requirements for the height of a 2-1/2" hose valve off the floor. I couldn't find anything in either 14 or IFC. I assume there would be something somewhere. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: NYC Standpipe
Great, thank you. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Cordiner Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 5:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NYC Standpipe Mike, Using the 4” on the lower height areas is correct. I have done this in the past without issue from the FDNY or NYC DOB. Regards, Wayne T. Cordiner, Jr. 917-426-5844 fpdrawi...@gmail.com<mailto:fpdrawi...@gmail.com> On Oct 24, 2017, at 17:09, Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com>> wrote: I would think 4” would be allowable for the shorter standpipes, but I’ve never worked in NYC so my thoughts probably aren’t worth much. You are going to run calcs to prove that 4” would work hydraulically, right? Kyle Montgomery Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] NYC Standpipe In New York City they have the following requirement: 7.6.1 Delete and replace with the following: Class I and Class III standpipes in buildings with floor heights less than 150 feet (45 720 mm) above grade plane shall be at least 4 inches (100 mm) in size. Standpipes in buildings with floor heights greater than 150 (45 720 mm) feet above grade plane shall be no less than 6 inches (150 mm) in diameter. I am currently doing a project that is greater than 150’0” in height, so I know that my main standpipes will be 6”, but I have a couple areas of the building that only go up 50’ that will also require standpipes. Can the areas of the building that are less than 150’ in height have 4” standpipes, or because they state building and not standpipe, all of the standpipes will need to be 6” regardless off height? I have always designed it as all since they state building, but wanted to see what everyone else thinks. Thanks in advance for the help. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NYC Standpipe
In New York City they have the following requirement: 7.6.1 Delete and replace with the following: Class I and Class III standpipes in buildings with floor heights less than 150 feet (45 720 mm) above grade plane shall be at least 4 inches (100 mm) in size. Standpipes in buildings with floor heights greater than 150 (45 720 mm) feet above grade plane shall be no less than 6 inches (150 mm) in diameter. I am currently doing a project that is greater than 150'0" in height, so I know that my main standpipes will be 6", but I have a couple areas of the building that only go up 50' that will also require standpipes. Can the areas of the building that are less than 150' in height have 4" standpipes, or because they state building and not standpipe, all of the standpipes will need to be 6" regardless off height? I have always designed it as all since they state building, but wanted to see what everyone else thinks. Thanks in advance for the help. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Clean Room Sprinkler Options
Could you use the Viking VK462 Mirage Quick Response Concealed Pendent MRI Sprinkler. In can be used in hazards up to ordinary group II and is specifically listed for neutral and negative pressure plenums. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Larrimer, Peter A Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Clean Room Sprinkler Options Can anyone please assist with a recommendation for a “clean room” sprinkler where the clean rooms are designed to be negative pressure (for compounding dangerous drugs). The concealed sprinkler cut sheets that I’ve looked at online generally say that the concealed heads cannot be used in negative pressure rooms (positive pressure plenums) and this is the type of room design that we require. The FlexHead cleanroom ceiling sprinkler connection doesn’t appear to be easy to clean after installation. What type of quick response sprinkler could be used in a negative pressure room that is readily and easily cleanable? Users wanted to used concealed sprinklers as they thought that the concealed sprinklers would be easy to wipe down when necessary, but we don’t want to violate the installation instructions on the cut sheets that state that the concealed sprinklers can’t be used with positive pressure plenums (negative pressure rooms). Thanks in advance. Pete Larrimer VA From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed A. Roisum, SET Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] NFPA 13 edition in Wisconsin I am finding conflicting answers as to what edition of NFPA 13 is applicable in Wisconsin. It appears as though IBC 2009 is the applicable building code, which references NFPA 13, 2007 edition. However, I have in my notes that NFPA 13, 2010 edition is the applicable edition for some reason. It may be because I believe NFPA 1, 2012 edition is the adopted fire code and that would reference NFPA 13, 2010 edition?? Can anyone point me to something definitive for Wisconsin’s applicable edition of NFPA 13? Thank you. Reed Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | KFIengineers.com<http://www.kfiengineers.com> __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Schedule 10 vs Schedule 40 pipe
In my opinion if the schedule 40 is going to be grooved than it would probably be worth it, but if they are going to thread the schedule 40 than schedule 10 will most likely outlast the 40. I am basing this on schedule 10 grooved piping having a better corrosion resistance ration than threaded schedule 40. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Schedule 10 vs Schedule 40 pipe Hello Forumites: We are working to develop a bid package for a pair of large freezers and coolers used for food stuffs storage on racks to 35'. The freezers are to be -10 degrees and the coolers will be 31 degrees. The sprinklers systems will be double interlock pre-action with Protecto-wire detection and CMSA sprinklers. My question: The owner is asking for a recommendation on whether to spec schedule 10 or schedule 40 piping. The concern is long term serviceability of the piping system. My initial thought is that due to the constant low ambient temperatures corrosion would be seriously inhibited for two reasons; any condensate in the pipe would be in frozen form and the low temps would inhibit microbial growth. So my thought is that schedule 10 pipe would last the 20 year expected service life of the system. However, I would like to get the thoughts of the forum participants, is the cost of schedule 40 warranted or would schedule 10 service just as well in this application? Thanks in advance for your responses. John Paulsen - SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P - 614-782-2438 F - 614-782-2374 C - 614-348-8206 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Removing Dry Sprinklers
What about using a pipe? Take a pipe with an I.D. capable of going over an 18" wrench and measure the distance down to the hanging hole at the bottom of the wrench. Drill a hole at that point and through bolt it so you can't lose the wrench. Slide the pipe out to the dry pendent and hook it to loosen. Once you loosen it a little bit you should be able to take it out the rest of the way with a head wrench. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of proud-texan Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 2:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Removing Dry Sprinklers We have a freezer that we need to change some Dry Sprinklers. Unfortunately, there is less than 12" clear space above it so no way to get a man above it to wrench the head loose. When we try to remove it with a head wrench, it refuses to budge. If we break the head, we will be up the proverbial creek. Does anyone have any ideas short of disassembling the freezer to change heads? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Flight Simulator Bldg
Don’t know if this will help, but FM Data Sheet 7-3 is for flight simulators. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 10:11 AM To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Flight Simulator Bldg I'm sure there will be a lot of electronics inside. Since you have a pilot in an enclosed space, are there any systems inside for life safety? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On Sep 20, 2017 at 10:06 AM, mailto:tston...@comcast.net>> wrote: Matt, Todd, I have no info on the simulators. I am assuming no combustible construction with a pilot inside. I do agree with E H Grp 2. Not sure that really applies in this case. While pilot training is going on there is also a manned computer room over seeing the simulator. Regards, G. Tim Stone G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC 117 Old Stage Rd. Essex Junction, VT. 05452 Cell: (802) 373-0638 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net> On September 20, 2017 at 9:29 AM Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com<mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>> wrote: What is in the simulators? Could there be a shielded fire in there? Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 8:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Flight Simulator Bldg Are these servo motor articulated or use hydraulic fluids? If there are no hydraulic fluids or other contributing hazards, the building may be able to classified as an F-2 occupancy and no sprinklers required. You might also investigate the possibility of a water mist or hybrid water mist system in lieu of sprinklers for such an occupancy but that will take some analysis and engineering work to determine suitability or viability of the option. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of TIM STONE Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 9:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Fwd: Flight Simulator Bldg [EXTERNAL] What occupancy should be considered? Steel building, 25' high with Flight Simulators inside. Engineer has asked that no sprinklers be installed directly over simulators which are about 22' in diameter. I need to use extended coverage. Occupancy not specified. I am leaning toward Ordinary Hazard 1 as minimum. Am I on the right track or could I consider Light Hazard? Cheers, G. Tim Stone G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC 117 Old Stage Rd. Essex Junction, VT. 05452 Cell: (802) 373-0638 tston...@comcast.net<mailto:tston...@comcast.net> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Liability Question
Thank you all very much for your recommendations, I have found them very helpful and I will be applying them to my current and future projects. I am in the same boat as Wayne Cordiner and primarily design in New York City, and he is completely right in saying it is a different animal in itself. Like many have mentioned, I believe I will have to weigh if the request is meeting or exceeding the code or if it has the potential of harming others. If it is the latter, document my concerns to the engineer or architect of record, and if all else fails respectfully walk away from the project. At the end of the day what Travis said is completely true, "Keeping my integrity and knowing I've done the best I can is worth more than a few dollars from a job." Thanks again to everyone and if anyone has more comments they are always appreciated, I like to hear what everyone has to say. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 12:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Liability Question In New Jersey permit applications and design documents are required to demonstrate compliance with the adopted codes and standards applicable to the project. For example an FM design is paralleled with NFPA-13 calculation methods to demonstrate code compliance. Furthermore documents prepared by other than the design professional (ie the primary achitect or engineer) are required to be accompanied by a letter from the design professional that they have reviewed and are acceptable for submission for permit purposes. Bottom line the project architect and/or engineer are ultimately responsibile. Last but not least as our municipal attorneys reiterate, be sure your position is defensible in court. Hope that helps, not sure what the regulations are in your state. John Drucker Assistant Construction Official Fire & Electrical Subcode Official Building Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ Cell/Text 732-904-6823 On Sep 17, 2017 12:14 AM, Ed Vining <edkvin...@gmail.com<mailto:edkvin...@gmail.com>> wrote: Howsabout suggesting to the engineer that he run the design past the building and code authorities prior to submitting it, to be sure they will accept it. He would probably be told that he can design in more than is required by code, but the final design must also meet the codes. Even if the authorities accept less, I would consult with my insurance company, to get their viewpoint. On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 4:37 AM, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: I am not looking to start a debate between NICET and engineers, but I have a question about liability and would very much value the forums opinion. The particulars behind the disagreement really are not important as I have had various issues come up in the past and would like to know how to handle it going forward. I am working on a project that NFPA and IBC are specific on a particular layout and designed the area as such. The engineer of record for the project has reviewed the area and told me to do it a different way. I researched what he is asking to do and found no documentation that this is an acceptable means of protection. I contacted the engineer and said that my layout was as per NFPA and IBC requirements and that I could not find anything regarding his method of design. His response was that NFPA and IBC are just merely the minimal level of protection and that his way is better than what NFPA and IBC are requiring and will provide a higher level of protection. When I asked what he was basing his opinion on, his response was because I am an engineer and I said so. This is the issue I am concerned about. I am a NICET Level IV in water based systems layout and fully understand and realize that I am not an engineer and understand that my place is behind them. However, I have previously been hired as a professional witness and it appears in court it really doesn't matter to the judge one way or another. Once you are deemed by the court as a professional in your field it appears that you are viewed and judged in the same fashion no matter the title you carry. So back to the original scenario. He is the engineer of record for the project and I do not know one way or the other if his request will enhance or hinder the system. Would anyone recommend getting a hold harmless agreement in the event that his method is actually a detriment to the system or is it enough that he is the engineer of record and the liability is all his. Any and all opinions are very much appreciated. I would just really like to know how the forum would handle this in the very law suit happy environment that
Liability Question
I am not looking to start a debate between NICET and engineers, but I have a question about liability and would very much value the forums opinion. The particulars behind the disagreement really are not important as I have had various issues come up in the past and would like to know how to handle it going forward. I am working on a project that NFPA and IBC are specific on a particular layout and designed the area as such. The engineer of record for the project has reviewed the area and told me to do it a different way. I researched what he is asking to do and found no documentation that this is an acceptable means of protection. I contacted the engineer and said that my layout was as per NFPA and IBC requirements and that I could not find anything regarding his method of design. His response was that NFPA and IBC are just merely the minimal level of protection and that his way is better than what NFPA and IBC are requiring and will provide a higher level of protection. When I asked what he was basing his opinion on, his response was because I am an engineer and I said so. This is the issue I am concerned about. I am a NICET Level IV in water based systems layout and fully understand and realize that I am not an engineer and understand that my place is behind them. However, I have previously been hired as a professional witness and it appears in court it really doesn't matter to the judge one way or another. Once you are deemed by the court as a professional in your field it appears that you are viewed and judged in the same fashion no matter the title you carry. So back to the original scenario. He is the engineer of record for the project and I do not know one way or the other if his request will enhance or hinder the system. Would anyone recommend getting a hold harmless agreement in the event that his method is actually a detriment to the system or is it enough that he is the engineer of record and the liability is all his. Any and all opinions are very much appreciated. I would just really like to know how the forum would handle this in the very law suit happy environment that we live in today. Thanks in advance for all comments. Best regards, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Parking under 13R system
I have had this scenario come up several times and I have always protected it. I based this primarily on the living space being above the parking area. My thought process was to consider it as an area outside the dwelling unit which sends me to NFPA 13. In NFPA 13 in section A.8.15.7.2 (2007 edition) this scenario is addressed by the following “However, areas under exterior ceilings where the building is sprinklered should be protected due to the occupancy above.” Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 6:30 AM To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Parking under 13R system I am looking at a 3 story apartment building that is going to be protected by a 13R system. Under one wing, the main level will be open for parking with 2 floors of apartments above. 13R addresses garages but not open (on 2 sides) parking areas. A number of years ago, I did a similar arrangement, but it was a 13 system and the space was protected by a dry system. Thought on if sprinklers are required? I know there was a thread or 2 about this, but only found the one about sprinklers under train tracks. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 10" pipe with 1.0 CRR
It has always been my understanding that the corrosion resistance ratio benchmark of (1) is based on threaded schedule 40 steel, so I believe any other pipe type would have a better or worse ratio, but not the same. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 8:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: dmarti...@total-mechanical.com Subject: 10" pipe with 1.0 CRR Anyone know of 10in non-sch40 pipe that has a CRR of 1? Have a project where the EOR is insisting on this. They also have a 100lb maximum point load per hanger…..but that is a conversation for another day! Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TOTAL Mechanical Building Integrity W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com> Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ [Consecutive Honors 2012-2017] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Parking Under MTA Tracks
That is an approach I never thought of, I focused on the tracks and not the concept of the structure. Like you said , I am not sure what occupancy group it would fall under, but technically a structure no different than any other building. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Cordiner Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 2:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Parking Under MTA Tracks Mike, NYC BC 903.2.10.3 Parking Garages, states an automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings classified as enclosed parking garages in accordance with section 406.4 or where open or enclosed parking garage is located beneath other occupancy groups. I wish I could tell you which occupancy group elevated train tracks fall under but regardless the only exception is an R-3 so automatic sprinklers appear to be required. I've attached a link to the BC site. Hope this helps. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/2014-construction-codes.page Regards, Wayne T. Cordiner, Jr. 917-426-5844 On Jun 27, 2017, at 19:22, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: Does anyone know of an NFPA code that addresses parking under train tracks? I have a customer in New York City that is going to rent the space under the tracks for parking. One of the requirements that New York City has made is that proper fire protection is provided, but gave no indication as to what this is. I checked NFPA 130 thinking that standpipes maybe required, but I could not find any information pertaining to this scenario. Any ideas or direction is greatly appreciated, and thank you in advance for the help. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Parking Under MTA Tracks
The city owns the tracks and the property underneath. My client would be leasing the property underneath the tracks for additional parking. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 2:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Parking Under MTA Tracks I would expect that the need for a standpipe would be dependent upon the accessibility to fire trucks and location of adjacent hydrants. If the truck can drive along the length of the track and there are hydrants every couple-hundred feet, why would you need a standpipe? As far as the design criteria, I would be surprised if they didn’t want something more “overkill” than the standard parking protection (OH1), considering the risk to the structure. Would column protection be advisable in this scenario? Maybe a dumb question: Is the city the owner of the train/tracks, or is your customer? Kyle Montgomery [cid:image001.gif@01CAA0CE.8D8066F0] Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Cordiner Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 11:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Parking Under MTA Tracks Mike, NYC BC 903.2.10.3 Parking Garages, states an automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings classified as enclosed parking garages in accordance with section 406.4 or where open or enclosed parking garage is located beneath other occupancy groups. I wish I could tell you which occupancy group elevated train tracks fall under but regardless the only exception is an R-3 so automatic sprinklers appear to be required. I've attached a link to the BC site. Hope this helps. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/2014-construction-codes.page Regards, Wayne T. Cordiner, Jr. 917-426-5844 On Jun 27, 2017, at 19:22, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: Does anyone know of an NFPA code that addresses parking under train tracks? I have a customer in New York City that is going to rent the space under the tracks for parking. One of the requirements that New York City has made is that proper fire protection is provided, but gave no indication as to what this is. I checked NFPA 130 thinking that standpipes maybe required, but I could not find any information pertaining to this scenario. Any ideas or direction is greatly appreciated, and thank you in advance for the help. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap.
I’m not sure if the sprinkler will work for your application, but have you looked at Victaulic’s LP-46 sprinkler? If I remember right it can be used on a dry system and depending upon what commodity you are protecting it can be used in buildings up to 45’0” high with storage up to 40’0”. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 8:30 PM To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. I gave it the 90 second overview. This was not a detailed analysis. I assumed a 50 degree temperature differential (+40 to -10?). I'm not even sure where this place is. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On Jun 13, 2017 at 8:16 PM, <Mark.Phelps<mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com>> wrote: Hey Todd, On your power calculations, what minimum ambient temperature did you use for the water filled pipe. Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com<mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 4:50 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. Pentairthermal.com has information that you can use to estimate the power demand. I went through some numbers (with a lot of assumptions) and came up with around 11 kW of power required. Wait until he sees that cost. I think this guy is a looney. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On Jun 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote: About 4000 Ft. of pipe, 300 sprinklers. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. Well, one thing is for sure, your customer would be on AEP’s (American Electric Power) Christmas card list the first time they powered the trace system up! Hundreds of feet of resistance heating cable…what a “peak” demand that would set. John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438 F – 614-782-2374 C – 614-348-8206 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. Yeah...I had some one tell me it was like $5/ft for the materials. Now, using Professor Greenman's qualitative formula, it would be about $10/ft + all the extras :-) I don't know how accurate or not, but that sure would keep me from doing an entire system in it. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com> http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack On 6/13/2017 3:08 PM, rongreenman . wrote: Just figure a lot per foot, double it, and then add on the extras. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote: Thanks. How do you determine the cost of operating a heat trace system? That is important to convey Ary From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] On Behalf Of Jeff Normand Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Heating cable and 1" wrap. If ceiling is too costly wait until you see the price of heat tracing an entire system. On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Art Tiroly <atir...@atcofirepro.com<mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote: They need store packaging material, idle pallets. Ceiling is also too costly. Art From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Heating cable and 1" wrap. What are they storing? Could they put in a false ceiling? Matt From:
RE: CPVC Piping
I totally agree with you on all the points you made. The space is conditioned so the thermal expansion would be almost none existent. I could not find anything establishing an allowable limit, is it merely up to the installer to decide what the allowable expansion is? Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Hinson, Ryan Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 1:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC Piping What is your expected temperature delta? Since CPVC is installed in heated spaces, is there going to be that significant of a change in temperature? Where is the water supply coming from? In a conditioned space, CPVC piping system with no flow is going to have negligible thermal expansion IMO. Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire Protection Engineer O 952-656-3662 \ M 320-250-5404 \ F 952-229-2923 rhin...@burnsmcd.com<mailto:rhin...@burnsmcd.com> \ burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/> 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 \ Bloomington, MN 55437 *Registered in: MD, MN, PA, & TX **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 11:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: CPVC Piping I just recently had the question asked of me of, when do you need to install a thermal expansion loop in CPVC piping? I searched all of the manufacturers that I could think of and they all appear to say basically the same thing, in long straight runs of pipe. No one specifically defines what that length would be and likewise I could not find an allowable expansion amount. For instance an expansion of ½" or 1" is acceptable or at 1" expansion you will need one. I can understand not defining a specific length of run since each geographic area has different temperature changes which would affect the expansion, but I would have thought that they would define an expansion threshold. Any guidance that can be given would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
CPVC Piping
I just recently had the question asked of me of, when do you need to install a thermal expansion loop in CPVC piping? I searched all of the manufacturers that I could think of and they all appear to say basically the same thing, in long straight runs of pipe. No one specifically defines what that length would be and likewise I could not find an allowable expansion amount. For instance an expansion of ½" or 1" is acceptable or at 1" expansion you will need one. I can understand not defining a specific length of run since each geographic area has different temperature changes which would affect the expansion, but I would have thought that they would define an expansion threshold. Any guidance that can be given would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: sprinklers in deactivated buildings with freeze potential
I had this occur once in the past and we received permission from the AHJ to make it an anti-freeze system. It was less expensive than putting in the dry valves, pitching the pipe, taking out all of the drops, etc... The AHJ was fine with the anti-freeze in this instance since the building was going to be completely unoccupied. The only thing they did was tag the building in their files that this arrangement had to be revisited in the event that a new tenant takes occupancy. They also had wanted signs installed on all of the exterior doors alerting the fire fighters and anyone that enters that the system was anti-freeze. The other thing we had to do was change out the backflow to an RPZ. Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Foltz, Stuart D CIV USARMY CEERD-CERL (US) Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 10:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: sprinklers in deactivated buildings with freeze potential An owner is deactivating a group of buildings and wants to preserve them for future use. My group has been asked to make recommendations and model the economic impacts. Because these recommendation may be used in nearly any climate, we would like to recommend complete shutoff of all water but are concerned about fire sprinklers. We are not sprinkler experts but are aware of NFPA standard 13. I'm wondering if you can direct me to any good resources on these or other options: - Drain system and go without We are concerned about having no fire protection even if all furnishings are removed. - Add ethylene glycol or glycerin Creates some risk if a fire should occur with a person nearby when the sprinkler activates. - Convert to a dry system May not meet code unless modified. May require nearly complete replacement of system. Is conversion without meeting code a reasonable approach if all furnishings are removed? - Install heat tape on the lines. Significant effort and operational expense. Introduces multiple failure possibilities. Thoughts on the relative merits of the alternatives and the relative costs would be appreciated. Thx SF ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Automated storage machine
Yes, a protected a vertical carousel. I used FM data sheet 8-33 for guidance. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 2:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Automated storage machine I am looking at protecting the interior of an automated storage machine. It has lots of small bins in it and you type what you want into a keypad it brings that bin down to an access area so you can grab what you need. The machine is 30 or so feet tall and is designed to take the place of several pick-stations. (made by the Modula company – VLM) Has anyone seen/protected one of these before? Matt ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system
I started in FM data sheet 2-0 section 2.2.1.6 ceiling slope. This directs you to the definition of a false ceiling in appendix A and Data Sheet 1-12. Appendix A says that a suitable ceiling would be 3/8” plywood or gypsum board or you could also use corrugated or sheet metal. It also directs you to 1-12 for the installation procedures. Best regards, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 10:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I am not able to find that in my copy of 1-12. Can you direct me to a section? I downloaded the May 2008 edition. Thanks! Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system Data sheet 1-12, they say that the ceiling construction needs to withstand a minimum uplift pressure of 3 lb/ft². Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:52 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system What FM guidelines are you using? I had a project come up that used a drop ceiling in a storage location and I had a difficult time finding guidelines for ceiling construction. Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I agree. I am trying to get them to follow FM’s guidelines for the ceiling construction, but they currently have an architect saying that an acoustical ceiling will be adequate. Since FM’s way will be more expensive, and the architect is approving it, the owner will most likely be going with the acoustical ceiling. They essentially said that if I cannot produce anything in NFPA 13 that doesn’t allow it, then why should they follow FM since they are not insured by them. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Pete Schwab Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system My concern would be what is the ceiling constructed of. If it is an acoustical tile ceiling with no clips I would be concerned with the velocity of the fire plume popping tiles before operating a sprinkler. Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com<http://www.waynefire.com/> [Description: cid:image001.png@01CBEADF.99691B40] I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Sloped Roof in ESFR system Confirmed - light hazard. John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection On May 10, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Richard Carr <rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com>> wrote: Yes, unused attic is light hazard but you are limited on head spacing. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com> 904-781-8227 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 7:11 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I am currently working on an old wood building that my client wants to use for rack storage. The building has a sloped roof that exceeds the allowable pitch so they will be installing a dropped ceiling to create the flat surface. The area above the ceiling will now be a combustible concealed space that needs protection. Nothing will be stored above th
RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system
Data sheet 1-12, they say that the ceiling construction needs to withstand a minimum uplift pressure of 3 lb/ft². Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:52 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system What FM guidelines are you using? I had a project come up that used a drop ceiling in a storage location and I had a difficult time finding guidelines for ceiling construction. Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I agree. I am trying to get them to follow FM’s guidelines for the ceiling construction, but they currently have an architect saying that an acoustical ceiling will be adequate. Since FM’s way will be more expensive, and the architect is approving it, the owner will most likely be going with the acoustical ceiling. They essentially said that if I cannot produce anything in NFPA 13 that doesn’t allow it, then why should they follow FM since they are not insured by them. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Pete Schwab Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system My concern would be what is the ceiling constructed of. If it is an acoustical tile ceiling with no clips I would be concerned with the velocity of the fire plume popping tiles before operating a sprinkler. Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com<http://www.waynefire.com/> [Description: cid:image001.png@01CBEADF.99691B40] I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Sloped Roof in ESFR system Confirmed - light hazard. John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection On May 10, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Richard Carr <rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com>> wrote: Yes, unused attic is light hazard but you are limited on head spacing. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com> 904-781-8227 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 7:11 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I am currently working on an old wood building that my client wants to use for rack storage. The building has a sloped roof that exceeds the allowable pitch so they will be installing a dropped ceiling to create the flat surface. The area above the ceiling will now be a combustible concealed space that needs protection. Nothing will be stored above the ceiling, would the area above the ceiling be considered light hazard? From everything that I can find, I believe it would be, but I would appreciate the forums input. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system
They didn’t say, but I will be recommending it if they decide on the acoustical ceiling. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:54 AM To: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system Clips on the ceiling tiles? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On May 10, 2017 at 9:47 AM, mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: I agree. I am trying to get them to follow FM’s guidelines for the ceiling construction, but they currently have an architect saying that an acoustical ceiling will be adequate. Since FM’s way will be more expensive, and the architect is approving it, the owner will most likely be going with the acoustical ceiling. They essentially said that if I cannot produce anything in NFPA 13 that doesn’t allow it, then why should they follow FM since they are not insured by them. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Pete Schwab Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system My concern would be what is the ceiling constructed of. If it is an acoustical tile ceiling with no clips I would be concerned with the velocity of the fire plume popping tiles before operating a sprinkler. Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com<http://www.waynefire.com/> [Description: cid:image001.png@01CBEADF.99691B40] I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Sloped Roof in ESFR system Confirmed - light hazard. John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection On May 10, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Richard Carr <rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com>> wrote: Yes, unused attic is light hazard but you are limited on head spacing. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com> 904-781-8227 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 7:11 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I am currently working on an old wood building that my client wants to use for rack storage. The building has a sloped roof that exceeds the allowable pitch so they will be installing a dropped ceiling to create the flat surface. The area above the ceiling will now be a combustible concealed space that needs protection. Nothing will be stored above the ceiling, would the area above the ceiling be considered light hazard? From everything that I can find, I believe it would be, but I would appreciate the forums input. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system
I agree. I am trying to get them to follow FM’s guidelines for the ceiling construction, but they currently have an architect saying that an acoustical ceiling will be adequate. Since FM’s way will be more expensive, and the architect is approving it, the owner will most likely be going with the acoustical ceiling. They essentially said that if I cannot produce anything in NFPA 13 that doesn’t allow it, then why should they follow FM since they are not insured by them. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Pete Schwab Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Sloped Roof in ESFR system My concern would be what is the ceiling constructed of. If it is an acoustical tile ceiling with no clips I would be concerned with the velocity of the fire plume popping tiles before operating a sprinkler. Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com<http://www.waynefire.com/> [Description: cid:image001.png@01CBEADF.99691B40] I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Sloped Roof in ESFR system Confirmed - light hazard. John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection On May 10, 2017, at 7:13 AM, Richard Carr <rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com>> wrote: Yes, unused attic is light hazard but you are limited on head spacing. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 rc...@coxfire.com<mailto:rc...@coxfire.com> 904-781-8227 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 7:11 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Sloped Roof in ESFR system I am currently working on an old wood building that my client wants to use for rack storage. The building has a sloped roof that exceeds the allowable pitch so they will be installing a dropped ceiling to create the flat surface. The area above the ceiling will now be a combustible concealed space that needs protection. Nothing will be stored above the ceiling, would the area above the ceiling be considered light hazard? From everything that I can find, I believe it would be, but I would appreciate the forums input. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Sloped Roof in ESFR system
I am currently working on an old wood building that my client wants to use for rack storage. The building has a sloped roof that exceeds the allowable pitch so they will be installing a dropped ceiling to create the flat surface. The area above the ceiling will now be a combustible concealed space that needs protection. Nothing will be stored above the ceiling, would the area above the ceiling be considered light hazard? From everything that I can find, I believe it would be, but I would appreciate the forums input. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Air Relief Time
Brad is actually trying to help me off forum. It is definitely a difficult calculation to run and way beyond me. At least if it had a dry valve I could run an FDT calculation, but it has nothing. It is a closed system with an air compressor only. A 2 ½” dump valve is located at each FDC with a gauge. When the fire department arrives they open the dump valve and when it hits zero starts pressurizing the temporary standpipe. The air in the system is just supervisory. You have low pressure and high pressure alarms attached just like a dry valve, but minus the dry valve. The air is just to make sure the system is always solid for the fire department. If someone should tamper with it or break something the alarm will notify that a repair is needed. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 9:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Air Relief Time Sounds like an automatic dry standpipe off a low differential dry valve but you’re not concerned about water delivery time or even water pushing out the air? Just a 2 ½” outlet at the top? Where’s Brad? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 9:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Air Relief Time The standing air pressure is a minimum of 13psi and a maximum of 18psi. The gauge located at the FDC must read zero within 3 minutes of full open. Compressor is connected and running. Four 4” stacks top of stack is 70’0”. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 7:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Air Relief Time NYC has a requirement for construction standpipes in all high-rises to be pressurized and monitored with a placard indicating required FDC pressures for required flows at each floor. Boston adopted this last year. Roadway standpipes are required to be timed for water delivery but are empty and have automatic air vents at the FDV’s. What’s the application requiring exhaust of standing air pressure? Is there a compressor connected and running? Horizontal or vertical installation? TD Sidestep the issue. If you can, pull a slight vacuum on the standpipe instead of pressurizing it. On Feb 28, 2017, at 7:17 AM, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: I am trying to calculate the time it will take for a 2-1/2” hose valve to relieve a standpipe system of air. I am designing a temporary standpipe system in NYC and the requirement is to fill the entire system with air and a single 2-1/2” hose valve needs to relieve the pressure within 3 minutes or a second will need to be added. My total system volume will be 1902 gallons and the staring air pressure will be at 18psi. Does anyone know of a way to calculate this? Thanks for the help. Mike Stossel SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Air Relief Time
The standing air pressure is a minimum of 13psi and a maximum of 18psi. The gauge located at the FDC must read zero within 3 minutes of full open. Compressor is connected and running. Four 4” stacks top of stack is 70’0”. Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2017 7:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Air Relief Time NYC has a requirement for construction standpipes in all high-rises to be pressurized and monitored with a placard indicating required FDC pressures for required flows at each floor. Boston adopted this last year. Roadway standpipes are required to be timed for water delivery but are empty and have automatic air vents at the FDV’s. What’s the application requiring exhaust of standing air pressure? Is there a compressor connected and running? Horizontal or vertical installation? TD Sidestep the issue. If you can, pull a slight vacuum on the standpipe instead of pressurizing it. On Feb 28, 2017, at 7:17 AM, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: I am trying to calculate the time it will take for a 2-1/2” hose valve to relieve a standpipe system of air. I am designing a temporary standpipe system in NYC and the requirement is to fill the entire system with air and a single 2-1/2” hose valve needs to relieve the pressure within 3 minutes or a second will need to be added. My total system volume will be 1902 gallons and the staring air pressure will be at 18psi. Does anyone know of a way to calculate this? Thanks for the help. Mike Stossel SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Air Relief Time
The maximum minutes would be three the minimum can be anything, and the ambient air I would say place at about 30 since we are headed into Spring. Yes, you can definitely contact me off Forum, I greatly appreciate the help. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 11:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Air Relief Time Mike, 1) Need to know the min. and max. ambient air temperatures. 2) May I contact you off Forum? Brad From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 7:17 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Air Relief Time I am trying to calculate the time it will take for a 2-1/2" hose valve to relieve a standpipe system of air. I am designing a temporary standpipe system in NYC and the requirement is to fill the entire system with air and a single 2-1/2" hose valve needs to relieve the pressure within 3 minutes or a second will need to be added. My total system volume will be 1902 gallons and the staring air pressure will be at 18psi. Does anyone know of a way to calculate this? Thanks for the help. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Owner Info Certicate
Me to please. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Blocker Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:11 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Owner Info Certicate I would like a copy as well please. JJ Sent from my iPhone 6 On Feb 15, 2017, at 8:02 AM, rongreenman . <rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>> wrote: Frank, Roland-- This form in Word might be a good addition to the Member Center/Document Center/Other Miscellaneous Forms on the website. On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Todd Williams <fpdcdes...@gmail.com<mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote: Actually I wouldn't mind a copy either if you would like to share Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT Office: 860-535-2080<tel:(860)%20535-2080> Cell: 860-608-4559 Fax: 860-553-3553<tel:(860)%20553-3553> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Paul Cetani <pa...@norcalfire.com<mailto:pa...@norcalfire.com>> wrote: Hey Scott, I would love a copy of that in Word as well if you wouldn’t mind. It would save me the time to create my own…. Paul B. Cetani Exec. Vice President Nor Cal Fire, Inc. 16840 Joleen Way, Bldg A Morgan Hill, CA 95037 T 408-776-1580<tel:(408)%20776-1580> F 408-776-1590<tel:(408)%20776-1590> pa...@norcalfire.com<mailto:pa...@norcalfire.com> www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] On Behalf Of Scott Futrell Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 5:24 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Owner Info Certicate Todd, We don’t start bid documents without these filled out and signed by the occupants – we have a Word document we send them. We don’t start plan review without them included in the submittal. Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2<tel:(763)%20425-1001> Cell: (612) 759-5556<tel:(612)%20759-5556> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 10:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Owner Info Certicate Does anyone actually get those? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT Office: 860-535-2080<tel:(860)%20535-2080> Cell: 860-608-4559 Fax: 860-553-3553<tel:(860)%20553-3553> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Travis Mack, SET <tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>> wrote: Does anyone have this in a word or excel format that they wouldn't mind sending me? -- Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271<tel:(480)%20505-9271> fax: 866-430-6107<tel:(866)%20430-6107> email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email%3atm...@mfpdesign.com> http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Victaulic IR Fittings
I thought the takeout for the fittings were shorter? I also heard from my client that if you want to go with back to back 90’s you either need to use their nipple or a long radius 90, that it doesn’t fit with the shorts. My client is thinking about trying them and asked my opinion, but since I have never used them I figured I would tap the massive amount of knowledge on the forum. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:30 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Victaulic IR Fittings I have one client who is trying them out on a project. So far the feedback has been neutral. At least the takeouts are the same. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT Office: 860-535-2080 Cell: 860-608-4559 Fax: 860-553-3553 On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Mike Stossel <m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote: I would appreciate the forums opinions and comments on if they have tried Victaulic’s IR fittings? Is it worth switching your fabrication and installation strategies over, and does the positives out way the negatives? Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Victaulic IR Fittings
I would appreciate the forums opinions and comments on if they have tried Victaulic's IR fittings? Is it worth switching your fabrication and installation strategies over, and does the positives out way the negatives? Thanks, Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Yard FDC Supply Line
I understand the concept of why they are looking for you to provide the calculation, but I didn’t think that was the code intent for the FDC. NFPA 13, 2013 A.6.8.1 The purpose of the fire department connection is to supplement the water supply but not necessarily provide the entire sprinkler system demand. Fire department connections are not intended to deliver a specific volume of water. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Yard FDC Supply Line Mike: If I do that, then it seems to me that I’m not proving the FDC is capable of meeting the demand. I already proved the city supply could meet the demand when I calc’d the areas originally. The idea of the FDC supply as a stand alone is screwy to me. I have always thought of it as a augmented source of water in case the fire outgrows the remote area. Thanks, John P From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 4:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Yard FDC Supply Line Not sure if this would help, but if they won’t accept the code that Brad just provided why not include the public supply in you calculation like you would with an FDC/standpipe calculation? I see below that you are currently removing it. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 3:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Yard FDC Supply Line John, Look at 13 (2013) A.8.17.2.3 That should do it, right? Or is the Evelyn Wood adult ed speed reading course I took years ago messing me up here? Brad On Feb 14, 2017 2:32 PM, "John Paulsen" <j...@crwnfire.com<mailto:j...@crwnfire.com>> wrote: Afternoon all! I am trying to respond to a project engineers review letter questioning the size of the supply line for the FDC connection. First, the facts: Hazard – Big Box Grocery Store Systems -3 Wet Grid systems fed by 2, 3” risers and a 4” riser for the stock room area which is .39 for 2,000 and is the greatest demand. FDC - 5” Stortz yard connection in the parking lot in front of the store. The risers are located in the rear. The site contractor has run 6” ductile From the FDC to a spigot piece at the front of the building and we are proposing to connect to the spigot piece and run 4” through the store to the riser manifold. Fire Department -I contact the local FD and obtained their standard response pumper pressures – 150 PSI / 1,500 GPM I have reviewed NFPA-13 8.17.2 and I am trying to determine the proper procedure for calculating the FDC line size. I can configure the source of supply as the FDC with the pumper output as the supply curve, remove the municipal water supply and the results show that this meets the demand for 2 of the 3 systems. The greatest demand system (the Stock Room) is 13 PSI over the curve for the FDC supply. I have always sized the FDC Connection as 4” or the size of the largest riser pipe and as a “supplemental supply” to be used in conjunction with the city water supply, not an alternative source independent of the municipal supply. The only thing that I can find that would seem to support the Engineer’s position is 8.17.2.4.7.2 which calls for a sign at the FDC telling the responders the required inlet pressure (above 150 PSI) required to meet the greatest demand. There is nothing in 8.17.2.3 that says the size is determined by the greatest system demand. The way I am seeing this right now, I have two choices: 1.)Increase the interior 4” to 6” as the engineer wants. OR 2.)Have a sign installed on the FDC asking for 175 PSI inlet pressure (After getting AHJ blessing of course) and hope the engineer will accept it. Now I ask for other opinions from my learned colleagues. Thanks, John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438<tel:(614)%20782-2438> F – 614-782-2374<tel:(614)%20782-2374> C – 614-348-8206<tel:(614)%20348-8206> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists
RE: Yard FDC Supply Line
Not sure if this would help, but if they won’t accept the code that Brad just provided why not include the public supply in you calculation like you would with an FDC/standpipe calculation? I see below that you are currently removing it. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 3:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Yard FDC Supply Line John, Look at 13 (2013) A.8.17.2.3 That should do it, right? Or is the Evelyn Wood adult ed speed reading course I took years ago messing me up here? Brad On Feb 14, 2017 2:32 PM, "John Paulsen" <j...@crwnfire.com<mailto:j...@crwnfire.com>> wrote: Afternoon all! I am trying to respond to a project engineers review letter questioning the size of the supply line for the FDC connection. First, the facts: Hazard – Big Box Grocery Store Systems -3 Wet Grid systems fed by 2, 3” risers and a 4” riser for the stock room area which is .39 for 2,000 and is the greatest demand. FDC - 5” Stortz yard connection in the parking lot in front of the store. The risers are located in the rear. The site contractor has run 6” ductile From the FDC to a spigot piece at the front of the building and we are proposing to connect to the spigot piece and run 4” through the store to the riser manifold. Fire Department -I contact the local FD and obtained their standard response pumper pressures – 150 PSI / 1,500 GPM I have reviewed NFPA-13 8.17.2 and I am trying to determine the proper procedure for calculating the FDC line size. I can configure the source of supply as the FDC with the pumper output as the supply curve, remove the municipal water supply and the results show that this meets the demand for 2 of the 3 systems. The greatest demand system (the Stock Room) is 13 PSI over the curve for the FDC supply. I have always sized the FDC Connection as 4” or the size of the largest riser pipe and as a “supplemental supply” to be used in conjunction with the city water supply, not an alternative source independent of the municipal supply. The only thing that I can find that would seem to support the Engineer’s position is 8.17.2.4.7.2 which calls for a sign at the FDC telling the responders the required inlet pressure (above 150 PSI) required to meet the greatest demand. There is nothing in 8.17.2.3 that says the size is determined by the greatest system demand. The way I am seeing this right now, I have two choices: 1.)Increase the interior 4” to 6” as the engineer wants. OR 2.)Have a sign installed on the FDC asking for 175 PSI inlet pressure (After getting AHJ blessing of course) and hope the engineer will accept it. Now I ask for other opinions from my learned colleagues. Thanks, John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438<tel:(614)%20782-2438> F – 614-782-2374<tel:(614)%20782-2374> C – 614-348-8206<tel:(614)%20348-8206> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Expansion Joints
A flexible coupling within 24" of the joint. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Expansion Joints Does any consideration need to be given to a Building Expansion Joint? It's not a "Seismic Separation Joint" although it does have seismic bracing. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Funky Wavy Soffit
Can you use the soffit against the wall rule from NFPA 13, 2013 8.6.5.1.2* Sprinklers shall be arranged to comply with one of the following arrangements: (1) Subsection 8.5.5.2, Table 8.6.5.1.2, and Figure 8.6.5.1.2(a) shall be followed. (2) Sprinklers shall be permitted to be spaced on opposite sides of obstructions not exceeding 4 ft (1.2 m) in width, provided the distance from the centerline of the obstruction to the sprinklers does not exceed one-half the allowable distance permitted between sprinklers. (3) Obstructions located against the wall and that are not over 30 in. (762 mm) in width shall be permitted to be protected in accordance with Figure 8.6.5.1.2(b). (4) Obstructions located against the wall and that are not over 24 in. (610 mm) in width shall be permitted to be protected in accordance with Figure 8.6.5.1.2(c). The maximum distance between the sprinkler and the wall shall be measured from the sprinkler to the wall behind the obstruction and not to the face of the obstruction. A.8.6.5.1.2 The intent of 8.6.5.1.2(3) is to apply to soffits that are located within the 18 in. (457 mm) plane from the sprinkler deflector. A soffit or other obstruction (i.e., shelf) located against a wall that is located entirely below the 18 in. (457 mm) plane from the sprinkler deflector should be in accordance with 8.6.5.3.3. (See Figure A.8.6.5.1.2.) [cid:image001.png@01D26CC6.8E3702E0] Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 11:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Funky Wavy Soffit No. I got up on the wrong side of the bed and that's a face plant into a a rough cedar wall. still pulling out splinters, Brian. But do you get my point? You may be looking at the reference numbers in the 2007 edition where you are and I'm looking at 2013 and the numbers don't match. I always tell my people to make it easy for customers to give you their money and that advice applies here. When you're asking for free help and looking for code references to argue a point make it easy for the other Forumites to help you. I now when I pull out the book to help and 8.6.5.3 is not the 48" rule because you're using a different edition than I am, then I'm done looking, but tell me the edition you are using and I can pull out almost anything back to '68 (I'm missing a couple). I think Leyton can tell you I was able to get him a reference to a building built in maybe '74 that hadn't changed use and saved his client a pile of dough that someone who the Wizard had just bestowed a golden badge upon wanted spent. On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Brian Harris <bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com<mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote: Ron- You want my address? Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 10:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: Funky Wavy Soffit I think that whenever someone posts a reference number and doesn't include the text or at least the edition he should be severely beaten. On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 6:24 AM, Brian Harris <bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com<mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>> wrote: We have a grocery store that has a wavy kinda soffit (see dropbox file link below) around the perimeter of most of the store. The top of this soffit is approximately 5’0” below the overhead sprinklers & is less than 48” at the widest points. With that being said are additional heads needed in this lower soffit? In my opinion 8.6.5.2 would not apply since the pattern development is not affected so the next stop would be 8.6.5.3. The only thing that stands out to me there would be the 48” width we I do not have. So I say no additional heads needed below, what say you? https://www.dropbox.com/s/3klcgh37fhowmp8/Wavy%20Soffit.pdf?dl=0 Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> Phone: 704.896.9989<tel:(704)%20896-9989> Fax: 704.896.1935<tel:(704)%20896-1935> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700<tel:(253)%20576-9700> The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence
RE: DI Piping
Ductile Iron Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Hicks Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 1:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: DI Piping I am sure DI does not mean De-ionized, so what is Di pipe? Schedule 10. 7. 5? I do know I cannot thread 10 with my 300 Ridgid, but I can crush 5, 7 and 10 with the threader. From: rongreenman .<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 10:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: DI Piping Yes I meant fittings. Haven't found any DI pipe that can be threaded. On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:20 AM Tom Duross <tduro...@comcast.net<mailto:tduro...@comcast.net>> wrote: What Ron said (I think he meant fittings) and I’ve seen many instances of grooved unlined DI piping within pump rooms (talk about heavy!) but if used on the potable side, I believe like Dave said, cement lined CL52. TD In many companies DI has replaced CI for small screwed piping. Grooved fittings are DI. The only problem I could see is the connection method and restraint, and small leakage if using PE fittings on the pipe. On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:24 AM å... <eurekaig...@gmail.com<mailto:eurekaig...@gmail.com>> wrote: I don't know of a many good reasons to deny this design. If anyone calls you on your judgment, preempt their question by caveatting your decision using Section 1.5. Scot Deal Excelsior Fire & Risk Engineering gsm: +420 722 141 478 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Bracing on vertical sprinkler drops - 15 ft long
Craig, I don’t know of any requirement for the length of drops, especially in building that don’t require seismic restraint. Drops to a single sprinkler are excluded. The only requirement I know of is for sprigs and not drops, and in the commentary it specifies that it is not required on drops. A.9.3.2.3 (5) Within 24 in. (610 mm) of the top of drops exceeding 15 ft (4.6 m) in length to portions of systems supplying more than one sprinkler, regardless of pipe size Drops to a single sprinkler are not required to be equipped with a flexible coupling because of the concern regarding the difficulty of sprinkler installation and replacement [see 9.3.2.3(6)]. The rotation inherent in a flexible coupling can prevent the development of the torque necessary to properly install the sprinkler. 9.3.6.6* Sprigs 4 ft (1.2 m) or longer shall be restrained against lateral movement. Sprig-ups are addressed in 9.3.6.6. A vertical sprig, or a sprig-up, is considered the opposite of a pipe drop. A vertical sprig is a pipe rising from the branch line to serve an individual upright sprinkler. They are susceptible to rotation during relatively minor seismic events. The requirement for restraint of sprigs was originally instituted for sprigs more than 8 ft (2.4 m) in length but was changed in the 1996 edition of NFPA 13 to apply to sprigs exceeding 4 ft (1.2 m) in length. The change was based on observations of rotated sprigs following the Northridge, CA, earthquake. The additional stability gained from this requirement results in time and money saved, because sprigs do not have to be manually repositioned after the event. The restraint provisions of 9.3.6.6 do not apply to drops to individual sprinklers, because gravity acts to pull them back to center. Hope this helps. Mike Stossel SET [400dpiLogoCropped] 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 m...@knssprinkler.com<mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 12:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Bracing on vertical sprinkler drops - 15 ft long I’ve been hunting the answer to this question and so far have come up short. I have a case where there are drops off the bottom of 2” branch lines down to sprinklers in a ceiling 15 feet below. They are hard piped to within 2-3 ft of the ceiling with a flex drop from that point to the ceiling. This is seismic design cat. B, so no EQ bracing required. I’ve been trying to find rules on bracing of vertical drops but find only info on unsupported armovers, which this is not. Also the pump rated pressure is 150 psi so the system will see pressures over 100 psi. Any help on locating that elusive one line or paragraph on bracing requirements for vertical drops would be appreciated. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
