Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses

[Bruce Verhei]

To counter management stating they’ll control storage one inspector in King Co 
used to keep clippings of bodies of murdered persons found in self-storage 
units. 

Not a tack I would take.

 It does make clear that control of storage does not happen.

Best.

Bruce 

> On Jul 26, 2018, at 14:45, Steve Leyton  wrote:
> 
> Well, we USED to do them as OH2 all the time and then the pendulum swung to 
> EH and there’s been a measure of subjectivity to it since then.  Most of our 
> work is in CA so the few we’ve worked on over the past 3 or 4 years have been 
> very conservatively enforced.  By coincidence, our design manager’s father is 
> the long-time director of construction for one of the largest self-storage 
> developers in the Southwest and their corporate standard was raised to EH 2 
> just to head off the conflicts that were becoming commonplace with sprinkler 
> plan reviews.   The EH2 classification can be found in the 15.2.2.1 decision 
> tree the directs you to 15.2.2.6(a) Column B for Stable, Exposed Expanded 
> Group A.   If the AHJ sees it as Unstable that commodity drops to .30 but if 
> it’s cartoned then the values become EH2 and EH1.If you’re used to 
> designing for OH2, your first and logical reaction is, Wha-WHAT???
>  
> But we tend to think about how WE would do stuff and as a current short-term 
> client of a self-storage facility I’m picturing mixed household goods, some 
> padded furniture, a couple mattresses and a mix of other stuff that includes 
> NO hazardous materials of FCLs.However… MANY small businesses now use 
> self-storage instead of leasing larger premises with storage or warehouse 
> facilities on site.  There are furniture stores nationwide that keep all 
> their mattresses in self-storage cells – that’s decidedly NOT mixed household 
> goods.  In our building is another tenant that makes specialized and 
> custom-fitted Pelican cases – impact resistant plastic with dense foam 
> liners.  Also, NOT mixed goods.   So there is a very solid case to be made 
> for providing an adequate level of protection for plastics.
>  
> The challenge is that it’s almost impossible to optimize spacing in 
> self-storage and the average coverage area might end up being 60 s.f. per 
> sprinkler or less and you have a ton of sprinklers operating in the model.   
> What I’ve done successfully in some cases is fall back on the old “double 
> density” approach with .20/1500 and then .4 over the three or four most 
> demanding cells.   It’s always worked and reasonably addresses concerns over 
> adequacy of the density to control/contain a fire that might have much higher 
> release rate, but that is localized to a very limited area.   We don’t see 
> whole floors full of mattresses in these things but we most certainly do see 
> individual units where the fire load very clearly exceeds “moderate” as would 
> normally be classified as OH2.
>  
> My 3½¢,
> Steve
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:19 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses
>  
> We’ve done several as OH 2 as well.
>  
> But I have always wondered what the realistic adequate level of protection 
> would be. The ones we usually deal with have partial-height partitions with 
> “burglar bars” separating the units, which allows the heat to spread across 
> the deck relatively unimpeded. I’ve wondered if this would activate adjacent 
> sprinklers before the adjacent units start to catch fire. And I’ve wondered 
> if QR or SR sprinklers are better (or if it even makes a difference).
>  
> Is anyone aware of any fire modeling or burn tests done for these types of 
> units?
>  
> -Kyle M
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Art Tiroly
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:05 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses
>  
> They will allow car storage with fuel in the tank.
> Metal partitions will easily transmit heat to the adjacent unit.
> No propane tanks.
> Corp allowed to store overflow stock or equipment.
> 40,000 SF in low bay.
> Corridors will have drop ceilings with pendant sprinklers.
>  
>  
> Art Tiroly
> ATCO Fire Protection
> 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
> 216-621-8899
> 216-570-7030 cell
>  
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:39 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum
> Subject: Re: Self storage warehouses
>  
> Make sure they have restrictions on 

RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses

[Steve Leyton]

Well, we USED to do them as OH2 all the time and then the pendulum swung to EH 
and there’s been a measure of subjectivity to it since then.  Most of our work 
is in CA so the few we’ve worked on over the past 3 or 4 years have been very 
conservatively enforced.  By coincidence, our design manager’s father is the 
long-time director of construction for one of the largest self-storage 
developers in the Southwest and their corporate standard was raised to EH 2 
just to head off the conflicts that were becoming commonplace with sprinkler 
plan reviews.   The EH2 classification can be found in the 15.2.2.1 decision 
tree the directs you to 15.2.2.6(a) Column B for Stable, Exposed Expanded Group 
A.   If the AHJ sees it as Unstable that commodity drops to .30 but if it’s 
cartoned then the values become EH2 and EH1.If you’re used to designing for 
OH2, your first and logical reaction is, Wha-WHAT???

But we tend to think about how WE would do stuff and as a current short-term 
client of a self-storage facility I’m picturing mixed household goods, some 
padded furniture, a couple mattresses and a mix of other stuff that includes NO 
hazardous materials of FCLs.However… MANY small businesses now use 
self-storage instead of leasing larger premises with storage or warehouse 
facilities on site.  There are furniture stores nationwide that keep all their 
mattresses in self-storage cells – that’s decidedly NOT mixed household goods.  
In our building is another tenant that makes specialized and custom-fitted 
Pelican cases – impact resistant plastic with dense foam liners.  Also, NOT 
mixed goods.   So there is a very solid case to be made for providing an 
adequate level of protection for plastics.

The challenge is that it’s almost impossible to optimize spacing in 
self-storage and the average coverage area might end up being 60 s.f. per 
sprinkler or less and you have a ton of sprinklers operating in the model.   
What I’ve done successfully in some cases is fall back on the old “double 
density” approach with .20/1500 and then .4 over the three or four most 
demanding cells.   It’s always worked and reasonably addresses concerns over 
adequacy of the density to control/contain a fire that might have much higher 
release rate, but that is localized to a very limited area.   We don’t see 
whole floors full of mattresses in these things but we most certainly do see 
individual units where the fire load very clearly exceeds “moderate” as would 
normally be classified as OH2.

My 3½¢,
Steve



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses

We’ve done several as OH 2 as well.

But I have always wondered what the realistic adequate level of protection 
would be. The ones we usually deal with have partial-height partitions with 
“burglar bars” separating the units, which allows the heat to spread across the 
deck relatively unimpeded. I’ve wondered if this would activate adjacent 
sprinklers before the adjacent units start to catch fire. And I’ve wondered if 
QR or SR sprinklers are better (or if it even makes a difference).

Is anyone aware of any fire modeling or burn tests done for these types of 
units?

-Kyle M

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:05 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses

They will allow car storage with fuel in the tank.
Metal partitions will easily transmit heat to the adjacent unit.
No propane tanks.
Corp allowed to store overflow stock or equipment.
40,000 SF in low bay.
Corridors will have drop ceilings with pendant sprinklers.


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:39 PM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Self storage warehouses

Make sure they have restrictions on things like rubber tires, flammable 
liquids, etc.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

On Jul 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with 
metal sided partitions.
Household goods, mattresses, foam  cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic.
Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.
This is a change of occupancy.

The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.
The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density.
Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?
I could not find anything in archives.

Art Tiroly
ATC

RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses

[Kyle.Montgomery]

We’ve done several as OH 2 as well.

But I have always wondered what the realistic adequate level of protection 
would be. The ones we usually deal with have partial-height partitions with 
“burglar bars” separating the units, which allows the heat to spread across the 
deck relatively unimpeded. I’ve wondered if this would activate adjacent 
sprinklers before the adjacent units start to catch fire. And I’ve wondered if 
QR or SR sprinklers are better (or if it even makes a difference).

Is anyone aware of any fire modeling or burn tests done for these types of 
units?

-Kyle M

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:05 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Self storage warehouses

They will allow car storage with fuel in the tank.
Metal partitions will easily transmit heat to the adjacent unit.
No propane tanks.
Corp allowed to store overflow stock or equipment.
40,000 SF in low bay.
Corridors will have drop ceilings with pendant sprinklers.


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:39 PM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Self storage warehouses

Make sure they have restrictions on things like rubber tires, flammable 
liquids, etc.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Jul 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com>> wrote:
Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with 
metal sided partitions.
Household goods, mattresses, foam  cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic.
Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.
This is a change of occupancy.

The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.
The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density.
Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?
I could not find anything in archives.

Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_sig-2Demail-3Futm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fsource-3Dlink-26utm-5Fcampaign-3Dsig-2Demail-26utm-5Fcontent-3Demailclient-26utm-5Fterm-3Dicon&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=7zniC7VUGZq57TG45yp1cM74BukPq_ZegEODRVtJyVU&s=ENfjhkYHPLOuS6kh-cyMGYTB18HxoZX0bKxn1jqiq0Y&e=>

Virus-free. 
www.avast.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_sig-2Demail-3Futm-5Fmedium-3Demail-26utm-5Fsource-3Dlink-26utm-5Fcampaign-3Dsig-2Demail-26utm-5Fcontent-3Demailclient-26utm-5Fterm-3Dlink&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=7zniC7VUGZq57TG45yp1cM74BukPq_ZegEODRVtJyVU&s=hUUfi2la-W6hqkDPS1AvTGajbu7C6bRJy9E5FoAdTL8&e=>

___ Sprinklerforum mailing list 
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
 http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Self storage warehouses

[Art Tiroly]

They will allow car storage with fuel in the tank.

Metal partitions will easily transmit heat to the adjacent unit.

No propane tanks.

Corp allowed to store overflow stock or equipment.

40,000 SF in low bay.

Corridors will have drop ceilings with pendant sprinklers.





Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell







From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:39 PM
To: Sprinklerforum
Subject: Re: Self storage warehouses



Make sure they have restrictions on things like rubber tires, flammable 
liquids, etc.


Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)






On Jul 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM, mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com> > 
wrote:

Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with 
metal sided partitions.

Household goods, mattresses, foam  cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic.

Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.

This is a change of occupancy.



The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.

The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density.

Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?

I could not find anything in archives.



Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell






 
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>

Virus-free.  
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
 www.avast.com

___ Sprinklerforum mailing list 
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Self storage warehouses

[Nick Maneen]

This is not specifically addressed in NFPA 13 and is subject to debate.  IMO
it is solid piled , miscellaneous storage up to 10' of up to Class IV
commodities.  If you are protecting for the mattress then maybe you go
further down Table 13.2.1 and get to EH2.  If you are going for that then
maybe consider the propone tanks, kerosene heaters, and gas cans.   There is
no telling what could be stored and it may be a little overkill to consider
the entire commodity Group A plastics for a hodgepodge of random junk.  We
have installed several at OH 2.  Remember the goal isn't suppression but
control until the big red truck gets there.

 


Nick Maneen, SET 

c 704.791.7789

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Self storage warehouses

 

Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF
with metal sided partitions.

Household goods, mattresses, foam  cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A
plastic.

Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.

This is a change of occupancy.

 

The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.

The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design
density.

Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?

I could not find anything in archives.

 

Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell

 

 


 
 

Virus-free.
 www.avast.com 

 

___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: Self storage warehouses

[Fpdcdesign]

 
 

 Make sure they have restrictions on things like rubber tires, flammable 
liquids, etc.
 
 
 
 Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (ofc)
 
860-553-3553 (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
>  
> On Jul 26, 2018 at 3:31 PM,  mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com)>  
> wrote:
>  
>  
>
>  
>
> Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with 
> metal sided partitions.
>
>  
>
> Household goods, mattresses, foamcushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A 
> plastic.
>
>  
>
> Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.
>
>  
>
> This is a change of occupancy.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.
>
>  
>
> The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density.
>
>  
>
> Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?
>
>  
>
> I could not find anything in archives.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Art Tiroly
>
>  
>
> ATCO Fire Protection
>
>  
>
> 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
>
>  
>
> 216-621-8899
>
>  
>
> 216-570-7030 cell
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
>  
>  Virus-free.  www.avast.com 
> (https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link)
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list 
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>  
 
 
 ___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Re: Self storage warehouses

[Mike Hairfield]

Ditto



From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of John Paulsen 
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Self storage warehouses


Art:



All of the ones we have designed were OH II. That includes U-Haul and Public 
Storage.



John Paulsen – SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P – 614-782-2438

F – 614-782-2374

C – 614-348-8206







From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Self storage warehouses



Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with 
metal sided partitions.

Household goods, mattresses, foam  cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic.

Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.

This is a change of occupancy.



The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.

The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density.

Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?

I could not find anything in archives.



Art Tiroly

ATCO Fire Protection

24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143

216-621-8899

216-570-7030 cell





[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>


Virus-free. 
www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>



___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

RE: Self storage warehouses

[John Paulsen]

Art:

All of the ones we have designed were OH II. That includes U-Haul and Public 
Storage.

John Paulsen - SET
Crown Fire System Design
6282 Seeds Rd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P - 614-782-2438
F - 614-782-2374
C - 614-348-8206



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Self storage warehouses

Storage units 200 -600 SF per unit covered by metal screen at 10 Ft. AFF with 
metal sided partitions.
Household goods, mattresses, foam  cushions on sofas. Class 3-Class A plastic.
Roof sprinklers at 14FT is a pipe schedule system from 1956.
This is a change of occupancy.

The existing pipe schedule system is not adequate for the hazard.
The sprinkler system should be revised and brought up to NFPA design density.
Is the appropriate design based on Class A plastic or something less?
I could not find anything in archives.

Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell


[Image removed by 
sender.]

Virus-free. 
www.avast.com


___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org