Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
Roland0 wrote: > It's been part of the linux mainline kernel since 2012 > Samsung, Huawai, Motorola, OnePlus etc, are using / have used it on > their phones, so there are lots of devices using it Thanks for the update, you're right, my thoughts on F2FS are badly out of date... It's definitely worth a closer look. Cheers, Dave Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
DCtoDaylight wrote: > I read a bit about the F2FS file system, but it sounded a bit > proprietary, > It's been part of the linux mainline kernel since 2012 > > and not widely used. > Samsung, Huawai, Motorola, OnePlus etc, are using / have used it on their phones, so there are lots of devices using it > > As for the SD card, my understanding is that post boot, the OS is 100% > in ram, and the card isn't used for anything > It's not (except in an OS specifically designed to run from RAM, like PiCore) > > (provided the cache is with the data) > Even if the OS (incl. the installed applications) is read into RAM, application data is not (this would limit it's size to the available RAM (e.g. on my system, the cache is 1.8GB)) Linux uses a disk cache called 'page cache' (http://sylab-srv.cs.fiu.edu/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=paperclub:lkd3ch16.pdf). This means that free RAM (which isn't that much on a RPi with only 1GB) will be used to cache data read from storage. However, - only requested data is cached ( e.g. Every time LMS queries the DB for a record, it will initially be read from the DB on the SD card, resulting in random IO access, which is what A1 cards are optimized for. Same for music files, cover images, ...) - subsequent reads will be from the page cache. Since there is not enough RAM to hold all data for all application read from the storage, old data will be discarded and will have to be re-read the next time it's requested. Of course, this all depends on your use case - if you only stream music, performance will be less on an issue than if you use local music and search/browse/... SW: 'Web UI for LMS' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98186-Announce-Alternative-Web-Interface-(beta)) | 'Playlist Editor / Generator' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108199-Announce-LMS-Playlist-Editor) | 'Music Classification' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108278-Announce-Essentia-Integration-music-classification-(moods-genres-)) | 'Similar Music' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108495-Announce-LMSmusly-play-similar-music) | 'LMSlib2go' (https://www.nexus0.net/pub/sw/lmslib2go/) HowTos: 'build a self-contained LMS' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?99648-Howto-build-a-self-contained-LMS) | 'Ogg Opus' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?107011-Howto-play-Ogg-Opus-files) | 'Bluetooth/ALSA' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?107230-Howto-Bluetooth-streaming-to-from-LMS-(ALSA-only-no-PulseAudio)) Roland0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
Roland0 wrote: > - If you are concerned about the durability of your SD card / USB stick, > you might want to use the 'F2FS' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F2FS) > file system, which has been designed to extend the lifetime of flash > devices. As a bonus, 'performance should increase' > (https://blog.acolyer.org/2015/02/26/f2fs-a-new-file-system-for-flash-storage/). > From the article: > > which is highly relevant, as LMS uses SQLite. > > - If you put the OS or application data (e.g. cache) on a SD card, make > sure to use a 'A1 certified' > (https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/application/index.html) one > (e.g. SanDisk Extreme R100), this will improve performance considerably. I read a bit about the F2FS file system, but it sounded a bit proprietary, and not widely used. I'll do a little more reading As for the SD card, my understanding is that post boot, the OS is 100% in ram, and the card isn't used for anything (provided the cache is with the data). That implies no performance boost beyond boot time Cheers, Dave Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
- If you are concerned about the durability of your SD card / USB stick, you might want to use the 'F2FS' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F2FS) file system, which has been designed to extend the lifetime of flash devices. As a bonus, 'performance should increase' (https://blog.acolyer.org/2015/02/26/f2fs-a-new-file-system-for-flash-storage/). >From the article: > For the SQLite benchmark F2FS shows significantly better performance > than the other filesystems and outperforms EXT4 by 2x. which is highly relevant, as LMS uses SQLite. - If you put the OS or application data (e.g. cache) on a SD card, make sure to use a 'A1 certified' (https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/application/index.html) one (e.g. SanDisk Extreme R100), this will improve performance considerably. SW: 'Web UI for LMS' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98186-Announce-Alternative-Web-Interface-(beta)) | 'Playlist Editor / Generator' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108199-Announce-LMS-Playlist-Editor) | 'Music Classification' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108278-Announce-Essentia-Integration-music-classification-(moods-genres-)) | 'Similar Music' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108495-Announce-LMSmusly-play-similar-music) | 'LMSlib2go' (https://www.nexus0.net/pub/sw/lmslib2go/) HowTos: 'build a self-contained LMS' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?99648-Howto-build-a-self-contained-LMS) | 'Ogg Opus' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?107011-Howto-play-Ogg-Opus-files) | 'Bluetooth/ALSA' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?107230-Howto-Bluetooth-streaming-to-from-LMS-(ALSA-only-no-PulseAudio)) Roland0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
Sounds like I'm being a bit paranoid! Which is good! I have to admit, I've been very lucky with my computer hardware. My original LMS server has actually been running for 11 years now, and all that's died in that time is a power supply. I'm actually a little amazed that the disc's are still spinning happily. The age of that box is 99% of the motivation for getting a new server up and running. It's been on borrowed time for way too long! FWIW, I'm typing this forum entry on a 2008 vintage Mac Pro, I seem to cling to hardware for far too long :-) A couple of hard disks, and a new graphics card is all this beast has needed in that lifetime! and yes, while I hang on to the hardware for too long, I do have backup drives of any critical data! Which reminds me, I'm about due to refresh those! Another reason a NAS is on my wish list! Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions! Cheers, Dave Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
DCtoDaylight wrote: > I started setting up a SSD (Solid State Drive) for my Raspberry LMS > server, but then started having second thoughts I know LMS does > some cacheing of data, but I'm not sure how much. Given SSD's have a > limited number of write cycles, is using a SSD a good idea? > Particularly with a journaling file system like EXT4? > > The drive in question is a Samsung T5. Any thoughts? or am I being > paranoid? > > Dave > ps, and yes I keep a backup or two of my music folders, so a drive > failure isn't fatal, just a little painful! For what it's worth, I've been running LMS on my Windows PC fitted with a Samsung 840 series SSD for over 7 years (so far). My music library is on a secondary HDD but the LMS cache folder and the other default installation locations are on the SSD. CloudAtlas's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=65221 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
The reason I'm using an SSD on my Raspberry Pi isn't about performance, it's about building a small, power efficient, server. While a single SSD certainly is less power hungry than RAID5, it's comparing apples to pears :-). But I got your point. I'm hoping to get the same sort of rock solid performance, over a reasonable lifetime, but a bit more green! So less power = less heat. I wouldn't expect 10 years. I think that's a very long time for any computer system (my home server is in its 7th... but I did replace disks during that time). But if you were to build a dedicated LMS server using eg. piCorePlayer, it would be easy enough to backup settings and re-build a system within minutes if needed. Maybe I'm being paranoid about LMS's use of the cache, and wear cycles on an SSD, but that's what I'm asking about! I don't know how often the cache is flushed, or even what it's used for! Just because I got a really good price on a 1Tb SSD, doesn't mean I want to throw it away too soon... Just use it. I've read tests where they tried to simulate years of "average use" by continuously writing TBs after TBs to SSDs. This was late '17, and the title even mentioned "cheap SSD". And the result was basically "don't worry about wearing out SSD any more". Some of them took Petabytes of data written, before they gave up. But all of them would write 600+ TB. That's a lot of data. -- Michael ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
The reason I'm using an SSD on my Raspberry Pi isn't about performance, it's about building a small, power efficient, server. My LMS server of 10 years ago, used 4 hard disks, in a RAID 5 array, with big fans, in a big box. Consumed a lot of power, generated a fair amount of noise, helped heat my electronics tinkering room, but was rock solid and reliable. Still working now! I'm hoping to get the same sort of rock solid performance, over a reasonable lifetime, but a bit more green! So less power = less heat. Maybe I'm being paranoid about LMS's use of the cache, and wear cycles on an SSD, but that's what I'm asking about! I don't know how often the cache is flushed, or even what it's used for! Just because I got a really good price on a 1Tb SSD, doesn't mean I want to throw it away too soon... And if you think I'm worrying about a total non-issue, I'm happy to hear that to! I have almost no experience with flash drives beyond the little usb thumb drives Cheers, and thanks for all the comments/suggestions! Dave Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
Agreed that the OP would/should not have any real SSD wear putting the cache on the SSD, but using a cheap USB stick for the cache would mean no writing to the SSD by LMS, so why not? Because you want SSD for performance. By putting the most performance critical part on the slowest storage this kind of is wrong. And adding a fast storage to USB2 really defeats the point of the additional money spent. I'd not worry too much and just go with a good SD card. I've been running my pCP based server for 18+ months on the same SD card. It's easily and relatively cheaply replaced should it ever fail. -- Michael ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
mherger wrote: > > That's an interesting option, a cheapo flash drive for just the Cache! > > I'll look into that! > > I think the problem with SSDs is long gone. Nowaday's SSDs are running > servers, most current PCs/Macs etc. I'm pretty sure they're much more > robust than any USB stick. One of my Macs has been running off of a SSD > for 4-5 years already. > > But then I wonder why you'd want a SSD on a Pi anyway. With its USB2 > port you won't see much of the SSDs great performance. > > -- > > Michael Agreed that the OP would/should not have any real SSD wear putting the cache on the SSD, but using a cheap USB stick for the cache would mean no writing to the SSD by LMS, so why not? Tony SBTouch SBRadio Tony T's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34544 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
I put an SSD on an Odroid (like a PI) for an LMS server 3+ years ago because I did not want a spinning drive, and it runs off the PI USB power. It just runs. The amount of writing to the cache is hardly going to stress the SSD - I run them in desktops and my work laptop which runs 24x365 and never a problem - think of how much a heavy stacked PC writes to the disk every day. By contrast, USB flash drives have miserable write life - why would you put the heaviest writes on the weakest component? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk yeomanspc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=249 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
That's an interesting option, a cheapo flash drive for just the Cache! I'll look into that! I think the problem with SSDs is long gone. Nowaday's SSDs are running servers, most current PCs/Macs etc. I'm pretty sure they're much more robust than any USB stick. One of my Macs has been running off of a SSD for 4-5 years already. But then I wonder why you'd want a SSD on a Pi anyway. With its USB2 port you won't see much of the SSDs great performance. -- Michael ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
Tony T wrote: > I think you can also plug in a flash drive to the Pi and have > piCorePlayer put the cache on that, leaving the SSD to just store the > media files. That's an interesting option, a cheapo flash drive for just the Cache! I'll look into that! Thanks for the idea! Dave Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
You can also plug in a flash drive to the Pi and have piCorePlayer put the cache on that. Tony SBTouch SBRadio Tony T's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34544 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS vs SSD
I run LMS on an SSD but files are on a NAS. Makes the GUI nice and quick as the database is on SSD. If it went tits I guess it would take an hour or so to rebuild. VB2.4[/B] STORAGE *QNAP TS419P (NFS) [B]Living Room* - Joggler & SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 -> Celestion F20s *Office* - Pi3+Sreen -> Sony TAFE320 -> Celestion F10s / Pi2+DAC & SB3 -> Onkyo CRN755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - Pi2+DAC ->ToppingTP21 ->AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - SB Touch ->Sherwood AVR ->Mordaunt Short M10s Everything controlled by iPeng d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110034 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
