Re: Alisan plume?

[Gary]

I should clarify. . . the only time saftey's pop is if I am running with the
throttle open perhaps up to 1/4 turn. If the throttle is open for a faster
run, then pressure drops to 2 Bar fairly quickly or less.
Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor


- Original Message -
From: Landon Solomon
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Alisan plume?


It has been my understanding (through various online conversations) that no
plume means that the heat of the exhaust draught is keeping the steam too
hot to show a plume (until it's spread wide enough that you can't see it
anymore.)  This means that less energy is getting into the boiler than is
possible due to a less than perfectly efficient boiler.  Basically, the
other locos are more efficient than the shay, or you're running the fire
too hot.  :)  Note that you shouldn't have to keep the safeties popping to
run her well, doing so is a waste of fuel and water...

Or at least that's what I remember being told.  ;]

Trot, the fox who's no design engineer, but is an equipment tech...

At 07:38 PM 2/25/03, Gary wrote:
>OK, another naieve question.
>
>The Steamlines Shay, Ted's Roundhouse 7/8th scale Porter, and the Frank S
>all have obvious plumes from the smokestack during cold weather. This
Alisan
>Shay runs almost plume free. The pop offs offer evidence that steam is
>powering the critter, but only episodic plumes occur from the smoke stack
>and those usually when the engine starts from a stop.  Any hypothesis occur
>to any of you, let me know.  Is it a real efficient engine? Does the
exhaust
>cool too much to cause a plume or could the exhaust be too hot and the
steam
>dry?
>
>Curious in Oregon
>
>Gary - Photos of Alisan shay look like the loco is cold except for the pop
>offs.


   /\_/\   TrotFox \ Always remember,
  ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ "There is a
   >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."

 

Re: Geoff wants a fire

[Anthony Dixon]

Hi Geoff,
   Congratulations to your and your good lady.
   Very Best Wishes for many more anniversaries.
(And more engines also, if your lady will allow!.
Regards,
T & P.D.
At 12:00 PM 2/25/03 -0800, Geoff Spenceley wrote:
Yeah Gary,

Promises, promises!! Shouldn't that be:  "Until trains and trestles do us
part"?
Well it's our 58th tomorrow-so we're past all that stuff. We each do our
own, and ne'er the twain shall meet!!  Of course, I married an angel,  but
she settled for what she got! A kid with trains who never grows up! (God
Forbid I should!!)
Life is great if you don't weaken, but much better if you do!  (copyright)

So buy that loco!  Wot the sh-t! weaken and prove the above!!

Geoff.



Ah well, I have already secured a promise from my understanding wife that
>the next home will likely be "till death do us part" home and that the yard
>will offord opportunity to make some incredible track work spanning gorges.
>Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
>http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
>http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
>

Re: Alisan plume?

[steve speck]

I have a Mikado and a RH #24.  The #24 always has a plume but the Mikado 
seldom does.  I have ben told the reason is that the #24 is giving off much 
more saturated (wet) steam,  while the Mikado gives off much drier 
steam.  I guess it makes since,  the Mikado has 5 flues pulling fire 
through them via draft while the #24 only has one gas fired flue.  Even 
though the #24 has a great looking plume,  the Mikado blows much more 
through the stack and is much hotter.  I would think that while the wetter 
steam looks better out the stack,  the drier steam is more efficient.  Any 
other thoughts on this would be appreciated.Steve.

At 05:38 PM 2/25/03 -0800, you wrote:
OK, another naieve question.

The Steamlines Shay, Ted's Roundhouse 7/8th scale Porter, and the Frank S
all have obvious plumes from the smokestack during cold weather. This Alisan
Shay runs almost plume free. The pop offs offer evidence that steam is
powering the critter, but only episodic plumes occur from the smoke stack
and those usually when the engine starts from a stop.  Any hypothesis occur
to any of you, let me know.  Is it a real efficient engine? Does the exhaust
cool too much to cause a plume or could the exhaust be too hot and the steam
dry?
Curious in Oregon

Gary - Photos of Alisan shay look like the loco is cold except for the pop
offs.
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor

Re: Alisan plume?

[Peter Foley]

At 08:38 PM 25/02/03, Curious in Oregon wrote:
OK, another naieve question.

The Steamlines Shay, Ted's Roundhouse 7/8th scale Porter, and the Frank S
all have obvious plumes from the smokestack during cold weather. This Alisan
Shay runs almost plume free. The pop offs offer evidence that steam is
powering the critter, but only episodic plumes occur from the smoke stack
and those usually when the engine starts from a stop.  Any hypothesis occur
to any of you, let me know.  Is it a real efficient engine? Does the exhaust
cool too much to cause a plume or could the exhaust be too hot and the steam
dry?
Steam plumes happen when exhaust steam encounters (relatively) cool ambient 
temperature air, causing the steam to condense and become visible.  This 
effect is much less common (but not unknown) in locos with a locomotive 
type boiler where the fire is being drawn through the tubes, producing a 
much hotter exhaust than a centre flue boiler, common to the locos you list 
above. Boilers on these locos are not dependent on exhaust draft to 
keep the fire going, so the exhaust going up the stack is considerably 
cooler, allowing the exhaust steam a chance to condense and become visible.

rta,

pf

Re: Alisan plume?

[Landon Solomon]

It has been my understanding (through various online conversations) that no 
plume means that the heat of the exhaust draught is keeping the steam too 
hot to show a plume (until it's spread wide enough that you can't see it 
anymore.)  This means that less energy is getting into the boiler than is 
possible due to a less than perfectly efficient boiler.  Basically, the 
other locos are more efficient than the shay, or you're running the fire 
too hot.  :)  Note that you shouldn't have to keep the safeties popping to 
run her well, doing so is a waste of fuel and water...

Or at least that's what I remember being told.  ;]

Trot, the fox who's no design engineer, but is an equipment tech...

At 07:38 PM 2/25/03, Gary wrote:
OK, another naieve question.

The Steamlines Shay, Ted's Roundhouse 7/8th scale Porter, and the Frank S
all have obvious plumes from the smokestack during cold weather. This Alisan
Shay runs almost plume free. The pop offs offer evidence that steam is
powering the critter, but only episodic plumes occur from the smoke stack
and those usually when the engine starts from a stop.  Any hypothesis occur
to any of you, let me know.  Is it a real efficient engine? Does the exhaust
cool too much to cause a plume or could the exhaust be too hot and the steam
dry?
Curious in Oregon

Gary - Photos of Alisan shay look like the loco is cold except for the pop
offs.


  /\_/\   TrotFox \ Always remember,
 ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ "There is a
  >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."

Alisan plume?

[Gary]

OK, another naieve question.

The Steamlines Shay, Ted's Roundhouse 7/8th scale Porter, and the Frank S
all have obvious plumes from the smokestack during cold weather. This Alisan
Shay runs almost plume free. The pop offs offer evidence that steam is
powering the critter, but only episodic plumes occur from the smoke stack
and those usually when the engine starts from a stop.  Any hypothesis occur
to any of you, let me know.  Is it a real efficient engine? Does the exhaust
cool too much to cause a plume or could the exhaust be too hot and the steam
dry?

Curious in Oregon

Gary - Photos of Alisan shay look like the loco is cold except for the pop
offs.
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
 

OT: WTC shows

[Jim Stapleton]

At 09:14 AM 02/25/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Not sure if it was the Discovery Channel or not, but one of  those education
>minded channels had an excellent show on how the World Trade Center towers
>came down.  Once one element of the structure lets go, the loads on the
>remaining elements will fail in spectacular fashion.  The physics and
>computer modeling of that collapse are fascinating, but unfortunately quite
>frightening at the same time.  On the positive side, the Towers stood much
>longer than designed after taking such punishment (707 versus 757 fully
>gassed up).  I suspect the same is true in Baltimore.  Notice that the
>center section is still intact and that maybe a third to one half of the
>roof is still intact.  All should be thankful for that.  It could have been
>much worse.  Along with the readings mentioned below, try to hunt down that
>WTC TV show.  It is fascinating.
===

The show in question was on the History Channel.  From their web site I
picked off the following info

1)  The World Trade Center: Rise And Fall Of An American Icon, DVD
(also VHS)

  
This DVD details the story of the WTC, and includes footage of the recovery
and cleanup efforts.   This DVD Library title is created in the DVD+R
format.   100 Minutes 

 2)World Trade Center: In Memoriam, DVD  (also VHS) 

  
 See extraordinary footage of their construction and hear from the people
who designed and built the vanished landmarks.   50+ Minutes Price: $19.95

Regards
Jim Stapleton
 

Re: Cleaning

[Anthony Dixon]

Hi Dan,
   Reference Engine Cleaning:-
I have been cleaning my coal fired engines with "Low Odor Mineral 
Spirits" by Klean Strip and purchased from Orchard Supply in gallon cans, 
approx $8.
I pour into a Spray bottle, add approx 10-15% lubricating oil, or 5% 
steam oil, and shake thoroughly to mix.
After a days running, if the track does not have an ashpit area under 
a side track. I place the engine over severaI paper towels or cardboard to 
catch the cold ash etc when emptying the ash pan under the firebox. Then 
before packing and transporting, I spray the engine casing totally from the 
top, which washes the grit down, and use a 1/2" paint brush to brush 
lightly, and thoroughly remove all the gross ash and grit from the casing, 
while soaking wet. I respray to clean wheels, motions, inside cab and coal 
loading areas separately after washing and cleaning the body, as this is 
where the major ash and grit's occur.
Do not use a cloth as this will pick up the grit and scratch your 
paintwork.
When all the major ash is removed, I re-spray and wipe with a second 
cleaner brush. (Not the same brush). Then spray a third time and allow to dry.
The spirits dry off, overnight, leaving the oil residue and a shiny 
surface.
You can also use Turpentine or Turpentine substitute, again adding oil 
at 10-15% mix.
I typically clean out the boiler tubes at home and respray again as a 
final clean of the engine.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Tony D.

At 01:57 PM 2/17/03 -0500, you wrote:

Re: Geoff wants a fire

[Landon Solomon]

Geoff,

Showed the wife this little convo and her one response (besides the smile 
and laugh) was, "'What the sh_t'?  He's gotta be from New York."

Understand the Angel bit, don't have a clue what you mean about the kid 
with trains stuff...  *innocent smile*

Hate to see that trestle come down, but that's how new trestles are made!

Trot, the fox who can't leave good-enough alone!

At 02:00 PM 2/25/03, you wrote:
Yeah Gary,

Promises, promises!! Shouldn't that be:  "Until trains and trestles do us
part"?
Well it's our 58th tomorrow-so we're past all that stuff. We each do our
own, and ne'er the twain shall meet!!  Of course, I married an angel,  but
she settled for what she got! A kid with trains who never grows up! (God
Forbid I should!!)
Life is great if you don't weaken, but much better if you do!  (copyright)

So buy that loco!  Wot the sh-t! weaken and prove the above!!

Geoff.


  /\_/\   TrotFox \ Always remember,
 ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ "There is a
  >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."

Re: Geoff wants a fire

[Geoff Spenceley]

Yeah Gary,

Promises, promises!! Shouldn't that be:  "Until trains and trestles do us
part"?

Well it's our 58th tomorrow-so we're past all that stuff. We each do our
own, and ne'er the twain shall meet!!  Of course, I married an angel,  but
she settled for what she got! A kid with trains who never grows up! (God
Forbid I should!!)

Life is great if you don't weaken, but much better if you do!  (copyright)

So buy that loco!  Wot the sh-t! weaken and prove the above!!

Geoff.




Ah well, I have already secured a promise from my understanding wife that
>the next home will likely be "till death do us part" home and that the yard
>will offord opportunity to make some incredible track work spanning gorges.
>Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
>http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
>http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
>



 

Re: Geoff wants a fire

[Gary]

Ah well, I have already secured a promise from my understanding wife that
the next home will likely be "till death do us part" home and that the yard
will offord opportunity to make some incredible track work spanning gorges.
Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor

Moving,  Terror Trestle gone!!! As Steve Speck noted:


AFTER ALL THAT WORK,  you may have to move?Steve in Houston.


Teary Geoff.







 

Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[Keith Taylor]

> The roundhouse itself is an original artifact of the B & O railroad.
It was
> built prior to that information being available.
>
>From what I read, the original buildings roof withstood snow loads for
over 100 years, it's only after a 1.5 million dollar rebuilding that it
collapsed!! Maybe we don't know as much today as we think we do!
Possibly replacing all that iron with steel was a mistake!
Keith

 

Re: BALTIMORE SNOW (was OT: b&o museum latest pictures)

[Dave Cole]

At 7:01 AM -0800 2/25/03, Royce Woodbury wrote:
So I guess some grants are in order to restore the damaged equipment 
?  If it can even BE restored ?
they're still working on that. obviously some pieces suffered only 
minor damage and can be fixed; others are really open to question.

the main guy on the site is apparently a honcho from the smithsonian 
and he has specifically told the b&o museum to use restoration 
professionals, not volunteers, to work on the equipment. the city and 
state are requiring professional engineers to report on the solidity 
of the structure.

the challenge for the museum's management will be to put together a 
coalition of funders to accomplish the work.

apparently there was insurance, but equally apparently, not enough. 
it is a private museum so there won't be any city, state or federal 
funds (not that any of them have any money anyway). i've just looked 
through at my notes and can't find it, but i seem to remember a local 
foundation has said it will throw some money into the pot. csx, the 
successor railroad to the b&o, may well put in a dime or two, but 
that would mean the company would have to remember that it's a 
railroad (new ceo seems to be train buff, so that may help).

so it all is going to boil down to individual contributions.

personally, i belong to four railroad museums and four or five 
(depending on how you count them) railroad historical societies. they 
all have worthy projects and like everybody else, my pool for 
charitable contributions has shrunk over the last 18-24 months, so i 
am always conflicted about what to give and to who.

i have some personal history in baltimore and visited the museum a 
couple of times, but even i haven't decided yet whether i can 
personally help. if you think you can, the information is at

http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration_fund.asp

\dmc

--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

Re: Geoff wants a fire

[Geoff Spenceley]

Moving,  Terror Trestle gone!!! As Steve Speck noted:


AFTER ALL THAT WORK,  you may have to move?Steve in Houston.


Teary Geoff.






 

Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[JR May]

Not sure if it was the Discovery Channel or not, but one of  those education
minded channels had an excellent show on how the World Trade Center towers
came down.  Once one element of the structure lets go, the loads on the
remaining elements will fail in spectacular fashion.  The physics and
computer modeling of that collapse are fascinating, but unfortunately quite
frightening at the same time.  On the positive side, the Towers stood much
longer than designed after taking such punishment (707 versus 757 fully
gassed up).  I suspect the same is true in Baltimore.  Notice that the
center section is still intact and that maybe a third to one half of the
roof is still intact.  All should be thankful for that.  It could have been
much worse.  Along with the readings mentioned below, try to hunt down that
WTC TV show.  It is fascinating.

- Original Message -
From: Jim Stapleton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures


> Gang
>
> I think that this discussion is the sort of idle speculation the media
> engages in when something "spectacular" happens.  NOW FOR MY
SPECULATION...
> Since the roof came down in the dark, no one actually saw it collapse.
> Until an appropriate analysis is done on the remains of the IRON
structural
> members, and all the pin connections and truss rods, we will not know for
> sure.  Remember, this building was constructed ca. 1884.  The snowfall in
> Baltimore was the largest since they started keeping records, and
depending
> on how the wind was blowing that night, the amount on one side of the roof
> versus the other could have been significant.  I am not a structural
> engineer by profession, so I cannot say how this would effect a roof that
> is uniform in its circular layout.  Typically however, unless designed to
> absorb unusual stresses due to a failure in one place, the damage spreads
> rapidly.  A classic example of that was the failure of the (2.5 acre) roof
> of the civic arena in Hartford CT in January 1978 due to snow load.
>
> For those interested in such things I highly recommend the following three
> very "readable" books (which are part of my personal library);
> 1)"To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design" by
Henry
> Petroski , 1992
> 2)"Why Buildings Stand Up: The Strength of Architecture" by Mario
> Salvadori, 1980
> 3)"Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail" by Mario Salvadori and
> Matthys Levy
>
> Regards
>
> Jim Stapleton
> Purcellville VA,  still under snow and expecting MORE Thursday
> =
> At 09:27 PM 02/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >NO! We can get a storm like this at least once every few years. The last
> >few winters have been very mild here in S.E. PA. We are about 90 miles
> >north of Baltimore,MD. The last big storm of note was in 1996. Definitely
> >less than 100 years. Last year at this time, the hardy ones around here
> >were steaming at our club track.
> >
> >Phil
> >> >
> >> > It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to
withstand
> >> > anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts
> >> > (trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year
limits.
> >> >  Were they ?
> >> >
> >> > royce in SB
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
 

Re: BALTIMORE SNOW (was OT: b&o museum latest pictures)

[Royce Woodbury]

Thanks to all who informed us about the severity of the storm.  It would 
seem that  if the roundhouse was built well over 100  years ago, it has 
held up admirably to some horrific storms.  So I guess some grants are 
in order to restore the damaged equipment ?  If it can even BE restored ?

royce in SB (where we are experiencing some sever cold weather - down to 
46 º  last night )



Casey Sterbenz wrote:

Friends:

The following text is from a newpaper article in the Baltimore Sun for 
February 19:

---

Amending the record

In revising its summary of the storm's duration, the National Weather 
Service said 28.2 inches of snow fell at Baltimore-Washington 
International Airport, making it the region's worst winter storm in 
132 years.

"The issues were deciding whether these were one storm or two storms, 
because we did have a break in the precipitation," said weather 
service meteorologist Michelle Margraf. "But some areas south of 
Baltimore didn't have a break, and we thought it would be a lot easier 
and make a lot more sense to combine the two."

So, officially, at BWI, the storm brought 2.4 inches on Saturday; 21.8 
inches on Sunday; 2.6 inches Monday and 1.4 inches more in a final 
dusting yesterday morning.

The new official total has finally displaced the legendary 
"Knickerbocker Storm" of Jan. 27-29, 1922, which stood as the winter 
benchmark for 81 years at 26.5 inches. The storm earned its name from 
the roof collapse at the Knickerbocker Theatre in Washington, which 
gave way under the snow, crushing 98 people and injuring 130 others.

--

Casey Sterbenz

From: Royce Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:28:46 -0800
It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to 
withstand anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable 
artifacts (trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 
year limits. Were they ?

royce in SB




_
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

BALTIMORE SNOW (was OT: b&o museum latest pictures)

[Casey Sterbenz]

Friends:

The following text is from a newpaper article in the Baltimore Sun for 
February 19:

---

Amending the record

In revising its summary of the storm's duration, the National Weather 
Service said 28.2 inches of snow fell at Baltimore-Washington International 
Airport, making it the region's worst winter storm in 132 years.

"The issues were deciding whether these were one storm or two storms, 
because we did have a break in the precipitation," said weather service 
meteorologist Michelle Margraf. "But some areas south of Baltimore didn't 
have a break, and we thought it would be a lot easier and make a lot more 
sense to combine the two."

So, officially, at BWI, the storm brought 2.4 inches on Saturday; 21.8 
inches on Sunday; 2.6 inches Monday and 1.4 inches more in a final dusting 
yesterday morning.

The new official total has finally displaced the legendary "Knickerbocker 
Storm" of Jan. 27-29, 1922, which stood as the winter benchmark for 81 years 
at 26.5 inches. The storm earned its name from the roof collapse at the 
Knickerbocker Theatre in Washington, which gave way under the snow, crushing 
98 people and injuring 130 others.

--

Casey Sterbenz

From: Royce Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:28:46 -0800
It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand 
anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts (trains).  
But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits. Were they ?

royce in SB


_
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus