Re: SR&RL #24 problems
Vince, Unless I missed it, I have not seen anyone mention valve timing. Binding would create a good chug I would assume. An improperly seated valve, I would think, would, at specific points, allow steam to escape up the stack. When the engine does run, say without a load, does it run "square?" I assume you can hear these things talk at least a little bit. Is it a nice even chug? Or is one louder than another? That might help you dial into a specific issue, possibly to a specific side of the engine. Anything dealing with wheel design would cause wheel slip, which I have not seen mentioned. If wheel slip is a problem, have you checked for free rolling of the lead and trailing trucks? Also of the tender? Have not seen much mention of lubrication of the piston and the valve. Even in full size operation, improper lubrication, can have a heck of an effect on the performance of the engine. What are you using for oil? With the outside valve gear, I'd check there for binding also. Does the engine roll freely when not under steam? Are the cross heads free? Well lubricated? I'd check the timing first and lubrication before tearing it apart. J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: Vince Gortner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 12:19 AM Subject: SR&RL #24 problems Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the help. The 20 PSI reading I described earlier was an error on my part. I was sending the e-mail from work and was not looking DIRECTLY AT the engine while I typed, which led to the error. My safety does lift at 40 PSI (those numbers are little!), and I meant to say that's part of my problem. I get decent steam pressure, but I'm just not getting power to the rails. I've checked throttle & reverser servo travel. That looks ok. What kind of clues would bad cylinders show me? Would steam escape at the cylinder, or would it just push past the piston to the low pressure side and up the stack?Could something be obstructing the steam line to the cylinders? The thought of caked, burnt steam oil filling the line doesn't sound good to me. I'm thinking about taking my cylinders apart to see what I can see. Doesn't look like I could destroy too much in the process. I've heard there's a Roundhouse cyliner rebuild kit out there too. Thanks again, Vince Gortner Naperville, IL
Re: kit bashing
The gauge 1 magazine had a small article on rolling sheet metal for such applications. I don't have it in front of me but it was done in a fashion that would never have occurred to me. That is such a great magazine...dig it out and check the article. If you are not a member, you really should be. It is superb. J.R. - Original Message - From: VR Bass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 12:04 PM Subject: Re: kit bashing > > I had enough trouble bending the brass sheet for the jacket. (Me > > without my handy slip-roll.) > > I've been going thinner and thinner with my boiler jackets, and am now using > 005". This size requires no slip roll, and if you have insulation underneath > with boiler band around, it should be plenty sturdy. > > I don't know what thickness Soni Honegger used on his fabulous K-27, but it was > quite thin. He took in out on his gravel drive and walked on it, then > flattened out the dents to give a "well-used" appearance that is stunning. He > couldn't have done that with anything thicker than about .015", I think. > > This is not to say you have to mangle your boiler jacket, just that very thin > material is sufficient, and if you have to use a slip roll it's thicker than > you really need to have. On the other hand, if you anneal it well, you can > form thick brass by hand over a piece of PVC plumbing pipe, coffee can, or > whatever approximates the final diameter you want. > > regards, > -vance- > > Vance Bass > Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA > Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass > > >
Re: 1/6 Formula and Exhaust Nozzle (was "Slow spam down tip")
My '87 Jaguar was all Delco! Including the air conditioner. Obviously, someone smartened up in British Leyland! Thankfully. (BTW it was a great car and very dependable) - Original Message - From: Keith Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:18 AM Subject: Re: 1/6 Formula and Exhaust Nozzle (was "Slow spam down tip") > > - Original Message - > From: "Phil. Paskos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Ahh Yes; > > > > The only reason the Brits drink warm beer is because they have Lucas > > refrigerators. o:) > > Phil > Oh yes! I remember well my encounters with "The Prince of Darkness!" My > MGB-GT was cursed with Lucas Electrics > Keith Taylor > > > >
Re: 1/6 Formula and Exhaust Nozzle
Folks, I can see why Steve went to bed after looking at his petti coat pipe. I can shed a little light from the prototype angle. Our Lady Edith (Stephenson, 1887, 4-4-0T) has no petti coat pipe at all. Steams like mad too. Our Baldwin (2-6-2 1920) and Shay (1927) have petti coat pipes.As I understand it, the pipe is used for a couple of issues. It does ensure that the blast goes up the stack and does not back pedal through the flues. I believe its primary function is an adjustment tool. Depending on position and slight adjustment you can fine tune how the draught is pulled through the fire and where. I was always impressed with that actually! Anyway, applying this to a miniature locomotive, especially in Gauge 1 which is fired with gas or alcohol, I would not be too concerned with the physics of the thing. Your main, and only concern, should be to ensure that the maximum draught is caused by the cylinder exhaust and that it does not back pedal towards the fire. I would also believe that slight rough edges up in the stack would not be a huge problem due to the lower volume of steam passing through the stack. So don't loose any sleep over this. As we do with the prototype, experiment a little. The real thing is adjustable. Yours should be also. J.R. www.njmt.org I would focus on - Original Message - From: Shyvers, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: RE: 1/6 Formula and Exhaust Nozzle > Geoff, Harry, and the crowd, > > Here's the results of measuring the Roundhouse Billy smokebox and applying > the 1:6 and 1:3 rules. > > The smokebox ID is 51mm (2"). The stack ID is 16mm at the top and 12mm at > the base at the top of the smokebox. Applying the 1:6 rule puts the blower > or exhaust nozzle 14mm above the bottom of the smokebox. > > Applying the 1:3 rule to the stack base, instead of a non-existent > petticoat, puts the blower or exhaust nozzle 15mm above the bottom of the > smokebox. Almost the same position as the 1:6 rule would have it, which was > encouraging. > > What was not so obvious until I diagrammed the blower/exhaust position with > respect to the stack base was that there is a fair distance between the > nozzles and the stack base. There needs to be some robust fixturing of the > nozzle positions in order to ensure that the steam blast is directed > squarely at the stack. Harry alluded to this in his messages. > > Because the Roundhouse stack is a turned piece that is sleeved (correct > term?) into the smokebox casting the stack bore has a couple of steps in it > and is not smooth. So I started musing about a possible petticoat to control > the steam flow to and into the base of the stack. I soon realized that to > size it correctly I would need to know something about the probable steam > volume, exhaust velocity and desired draft through the boiler tubes. And, > son-of-a-gun, the steam is probably at a lower temperature than the smokebox > and picks up energy from the combustion gases > > By then I was in over my head, and I went to bed. > > Steve > >
Re: real scratch building
There was an older guy up at Washakum (Keith, what was his name??) who built a bunch of beautiful live steamers. He did it with very little machinery, I believe just a lathe and drill press. And from a rough drawing or a picture in a book. And few, if any castings. And he could have a full 3/4" scale locomotive done in a year. Amazing. J.R. - Original Message - From: Royce Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:18 PM Subject: real scratch building > > > Harry Wade wrote: > > > At 07:17 AM 5/17/02 -0700, you wrote: > > >In time, I hope to be able to make a steamer with only a set of files and > > drills. : ) > > > > Royce, > >Don't laugh . . . it's been done. > > > > Regards, > > Harry > > > > And it wouldn't surprise me if the builder chose to do it without machine > tools, not out of necessity. This would be the epitome of "scratch building", > in my opinion. But I would like to think that such a person has WAY more time > on his hands than I do. > > royce in SB > > >
Re: Lots of strange non-steam emails
Folks, Just keep your virus software up to date. It is not expensive to buy and relatively simple to install. I use Norton. You guys with cable modems are especially vulnerable. I suspect the emails in question come from something called Badmail. This sends out emails from your computer without you even knowing it. Usually with wacky subjects. It includes a virus as well. This is usually accompanied by a virus which removes ONLY the virus protection element of your virus protection. This is easy to find. Run your virus software. If the option to scan is not there, then you are infected. Call Norton for the fix. If you are a cable user, or if you leave your computer on line via a telephone line all the time, DON'T. Turn it the hell off. Or pull the damn plug. You do know that is a two way connection? People can work there way into yours? Yes. Oh another good one for you cable users. Badmail may be tied to a worm which looks for credit card numbers in your computer and passwords. It then creates an email, and sends it to the guys who wants this data. I work with the US Army here at Fort Monmouth in NJ. I am, unfortunately terribly familiar with viruses. We get many from the Army's paperless procurement system. I recently received an email from a competitor with pricing of his products and congressional points of contact. I called him up, thanked him for the data and suggested he check his damn computer for a virus. He did. He was infected. A month later, same thing. I called him up. He cursed. "Not again!" Feel free to contact me directly if you like at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you like. J.R. - Original Message - From: Alison & Jim Gregg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:06 AM Subject: Re: Lots of strange non-steam emails > Hi. > > Yes lots around - on all the lists. It doesn't necessarilly mean the > sslivesteam list has got into wrong hands, anyone, ie any list member, with > an address book can have their address book raided by the worm / virus, if > they get the virus. > > Jim Gregg. > > At 06:56 PM 5/1/02 -0700, you wrote: > >I've been getting a lot (1-3 per day) of strange emails lately from > >unrecognizable senders, a strange Subject line and usually no message. > >I'm assuming that these are attempts to pass viruses/worms. Have any > >others of you on-list been getting these? > > > >If so, could the sslivesteam address book have come into evil hands? > > > > >
Re: sight glass fittings
Harry, I had an older stationary boiler and steam engine many years ago which had a glass window at one end of the boiler. The boiler diameter was probably similar to many gauge 1 boilers. If the back head did not have many appliances, could something like this work? Also, the latest gauge 1 magazine (another fantastic issue!!) had a neat article on a coal fired boiler and hit on some electronic water level lights. Does anyone have any experience with this concept for water level indication? J.R. - Original Message - From: Harry Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 10:46 AM Subject: Re: sight glass fittings > At 07:10 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote: > >. . . . I read that ALL passageways to sight glass had to be min 1/4" id. > >royce in SB > > Royce, > That would be impratical in most Ga1 locomotives. Of course the larger > you can make the lower passage to the gauge glass the better but both can > be as small as 1/8" ID and still be OK. The diameter of the gauge glass is > what needs to be as large as you can stand it because that's the point > where capillary action most affects the water level readings in small > glasses. An increase of just a couple of mm's in any given gauge glass > size will reduce the effects of capillary attraction. > > Regards, > Harry > > >
Re: F scale
Keith,
I have often said I hate trains! In fact in local parts here I am known for
it.
Butfor what ever reason there is something that always drags me back. I
wish I knew what it was. A friend of ours has adopted a young kid about 3
years old who has a learning disability. Cute kid, can't really talk much
at all. But God he loves trains. It just proves one thingwe are born
with it. And you can't fight it.
I have certainly learned a lot on the F scale discussion. Many thanks!
J.R.
- Original Message -
From: Keith Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: F scale
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > If you were willing to deal with the same thing that we who run 1:29th
car
> > do you could just re-gauge the wheelsets on these mainline F scalers and
> > run them on your 2.5" gauge track. ;] The difference wouldn't be
_that_
> > noticable, would it? {:)
> >
> > Trot, the fox who doesn't care for it himself...
> >
> Trot,
> Probably not, as most of my stuff is actually 17/32" scale anyway! It
still
> seeems odd that anyone would want to create yet one more scale at this
point
> in time! Not that it bothers me, anything that encouraged scratch building
> is A-Okay in my book! Just being curious, in your signiture, you say,
> "... the fox who doesn't care for it himself..." Just what is it that
> you don't care for? Large scales, or steam locomotives? Most model
railroad
> guys seem to be able to enjoy scale models in every scale out there! Even
if
> they don't plan on owning any in that scale, just enjoying the work of
> others is usually all the incentive needed.
> Keith, who likes 'em all, Big and Small!
>
>
>
>
Re: Friend's saddle tank project
Interesting... > engine. Modifications include: > 1. a working saddle tank with injector > 2. a large sight glass set at an angle to reduce vapor lock I have never heard of vapor lock in my years on the big engines. Pressure on both sides of the glass should be equal and the water should move up and down as the water sloshes around. If the water stops sloshing you are screwed. It means the glass has a blockage and you now have no idea how much water you have. Hit the tri-cocks before putting in cold water. > 3. an operating sand dome > 4. a heated & insulated water tank in tender (heat supplied by a steam > line in the water tank (he can fill the boiler either with hand feed water > pump or injector) I can see the heated water for the butane but it may hinder the injector performance which will tend to prefer cold water. J.R.
Re: Friend's saddle tank project
If I can find it, I have an excellent description of who an injector works. Its the question I hated most when I took my state of NJ oral test for my HP locomotive fireman's test. > The injector has not yet been tested. He made a saddle tank to feed the > injector, so if injectors need cold water he may have a problem. I wonder > why the injector would be sensitive to water temperature? How do injectors > work? I looked at his injector and a diagram of a full size injector. It > looks like the nozzle causes a partial vacuum to draw water from the water > tank which then is forced into a narrowing tube to increase pressure. Anyone > out in etherspace familiar with the physics of injectors? Perhaps Harry? I'm impressed as you are quite close. When you turn on an injector, you must prime it. That is, let in a small amount of steam, it hits the cold water, creates the vaccum and draws water up from the tender or tanks. On our narrow gauge locomotives (3 foot) we have had to pour cold water on the injector on very hot days. Anyway, once rpimed, the steam valve in put on full bore, the steam and water mix with the steam "imparting some of its velocity to the water", moves through a venturi (I bilieve it was called) increasing the water's velocity and thus over coming the boiler presure on the other side of the check valve. An amazing invention actually. It pumps water with no moving parts. In the woods on a logging locomotive it is used to fight fires. When I took the State test, "imparting" was the word the examaner was looking for. Dud Halley ws his name. He twirled his mustache as he asked the toughest of the toughest of questions. "Tell me how an injector works..." With vessels popping from my forhead I answered it completely. 23 years ago and I have flash backs! Anyway, it was not so much a problem of water in the tanks being too warm as much as it was water in the pipes leading to the injector as well as the heat of the injector it self being the main problems. If you can't prime, you can't get water moving at a decent velocity to over come the check valve. Keep in mind that leaking steam valves to the injector will over heat the injector also. When not in use, the steam valve must be seated firmly. In miniature, I would see where temperature could be terribly critical. You are over coming a full size boiler pressure of 100 pounds or so but with a miniature injector. Physics must come into play there some how! Oh well, hope that helps. J.R. NJMT/Pine Creek. > ~Gary - Carting off tree prunings today so that the track is free of all > debri in Eugene, Oregon > > > - Original Message - > From: "Harry Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 8:53 AM > Subject: Re: Friend's saddle tank project > > > > At 08:25 AM 3/27/02 -0800, you wrote: > > >2. a large sight glass set at an angle to reduce vapor lock > > > >Vapor lock? This is a term I've never seen associated with boiler > > gauge glasses, assuming it is a boiler glass rather than a water tank > > glass. Normally tilting the gauge is done for one reason, to allow it to > > better fit within the layout of the backhead, otherwise it only decreases > > the visible rage of the gauge. If capillary action is what he's trying to > > reduce this can only be done by increasing the ID of the gauge glass, > which > > he may have done. If this actually referrs to the water tank vapor lock > is > > prevented by venting the tank. > >I'd like to hear further reports on the injector installation. > > Since injectors like very cold water (supposedly), I'll be very interested > > to hear what his experience with pre-heating is. > > > > > > Regards, > > Harry Wade > > Nashville, Tn > > > > > > >
Re: Steamlines Shay
Amazing to me how the Gauge 1 shay can have the same problems as the prototypes. Truly amazing. Our #6 has been out of service for several years undergoing tire replacement and truck frame rebuild. Took a great deal of time to order the Lima drawings for this engine from Sacramento RR museum. If interested in modeling a prototype you might want to check them out. If you live in Ohio the drawings are available there too but I can't remember the name of the historical society off hand. If you have some shay books or books on logging, check the pictures of the shays. Under the center of the older trucks you will see in many cases what I call a hair clip which runs from one side of the truck to the other. No that is not a Lima part. Its a back woods fix which holds the lower side frames of the trucks together (or in) and keeps the trucks from spreading after the cross channel irons crack in multiple places. Rather common. The hair clip and gravity keeps the whole mess together. J.R. - Original Message - From: Gary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 3:31 AM Subject: Steamlines Shay > Thanks Jim! > I read your note after dissasembling both trucks. One axle did have a loose > crown/drive gear. > The side frames were out of alignment badly! The side frames were pretty > bent up, which caused binding. > I have straightened the frames, aligned the axles and squared up the wheels > so all rest on a flat surface evenly. One truck remains a bit too stiff from > my view. So I have more fiddling to do. Thanks for the suggestion to use > Loctite...I was thinking I needed to find a spot welder with small equipment > since the other three gears are tacked on with one spot weld. > http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor Click on Garden RR Model > Trestle and look at the end of the picture album for three pictures of this > sad little loco. At least I got it running! > ~Gary > > > > Hi Gary. > > > > I've got one too. Thhe sort of crabbing sounds like the drive train is > > causing it to happen. - Been there. Check the sliding joints and the > > universals are free to move well and freely - on sharp curves the drive > > torque can stop the the sliding joints in the drive shafts, from sliding > > and that prevents the trucks from straightening up. This is a known > > problem of the 12"=1 foot scale Shays too! > > > > Also check if any drive gears have come loose on either the axles or the > > drive shafts - that can do funny things too. Fix with Loctite. > > > > Finally are the adjustable wheels set centrally and in line with each > other? > > > > Jim Gregg. > > > > > >
Re: Weymouth Steam Tug
John: I would pick up a copy of Wooden Boat magazine. It is a beauty and includes ads for plans and such. In fact there is usually a short segment on models that have been built. Wooden Boat Store (I think that is the name) has a good list of books, plans, and kits. They may be on line. Its a great magazine also. Simply great. I am sure you could track down what you need through there. J.R. - Original Message - From: John Page <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: Weymouth Steam Tug > Hi Folks, > > Along with my learning about live steam G1 RR engines, I am also > pursuing plans for several steam powered marine projects. Do you > know anyone who has the plans set for the Weymouth Steam Tug > model, (32.5" long) originally sold for years by Modeltec Magazine? > They no longer have these plans available. > > I'm also interested in modeling a hull for a slim steam-powered lake > or river launch. > > I'm looking for a copy of the lines which can be scaled up to > build a model on the order of 48" to 54" in length. > > Thanks for your assistance, > John Page > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >
Re: Sanding flues & having a beer
I have found in the past that placing a cold bagel on the engine cover of a shay (right in front of the engineer) for about 30 minutes brings it to the perfect temperature, sweet butter in all the nooks and crannies. With that in mind, would we call this a 36 ton "hot plate?" - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Sanding flues & having a beer > In a message dated 02/04/02 11:26:43 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > << Who is going to make a live steam powered beer cooler? >> > > For those who never got to see or experience it -- the late Bob Paule (SSSM) > had at Diamondhead for several years a steam powered blender of his design > and making which produced wonderful margaritas on Saturday night of the event. > > Jim Crabb > Seabrook > >
Re: Other boiler related topic
Why not use a gun cleaning kit patch clothe holder? The clothe is maybe 1" x 1", with some oil or gun cleaner on it and held in a small holder meant for the proper bore. Push it through and pull it back out a few times. The clothe holder is plastic with a slot to hold the patch. The rod supplied is aluminum and with care would not damage much and I have seen plastic or flexible ones. The main questions then is what cleaner, if any, to put on the patch clothe for cleaning. Forget the metal bushes then. Seems to me it would work great and not mechanically damage the flue in any way. And your not trying to pull a rag through the engine. J.R. > Your technique is making the most sense to me so far... the metal > gun brushes seem too abrasive, even the nylon ones I found are very > stiff. Too stiff me thinks for copper. I like the idea of pulling a > WD40 soaked cotton cloth down each flue. Seem the WD40 will loosen > up any tar, etc. If I do this after vacuuming then I also reduce the > odds of just pushing/pulling a big abrasive pile of ash up and down > the flue. > > Does somebody have contact with Yves? It was mentioned to me at > D'head this year that Yves has said that he wore out his C62. I > wonder what wore out? And why? Was it related to any coal firing > issues? > > > > > Question - What caused the destruction of your earlier coal > >fired engine?. i.e. What should we not do?. Enquiring minds want to > >know!!!. > > > The engine was a vertical cylinder arrangement with rotary valve and > connecting beam. Dual cylinder single acting. The top of each > cylinder was open to the atmosphere. The boiler was a coal fired > single flue arrangement, very efficient. The cylinders collected the > ash (duh!) and eventually just scored the cylinder walls up so badly > that no o-ring could seal them up. So my experience has zero to do > with the standard coal fired situation we're talking about here. I > was just amazed at how rapidly the coal ash destroyed those cylinder > walls. This experience is, I think, very relevant to all the motion > and undercarriage on our coal fired beasties. I used to use a > complete medium sized can of WD40 on that John Shawe Sandy River #24 > when cleaning... probably overkill but even at that point on the > learning curve it was clear that the ash and grunge was an enemy to > the longevity of the working bits. > > By the way, I have a straight shot to the flues on my C62 from the > smokebox... I remember that on the #24 I could get to half of them > from the smokebox, and the other half by creatively guiding the brush > through the firedoor and guiding with a finger through the firebox. > > Later! > > -Richard > > > > > > > > > > Note to Geoff:- Did you say you was using 30 year old water > >in your engine with no problems, or > >fresh water for 30 years?. Only the drivers lubricant being 30 years old?. > > Regards, > > Tony D. > > > > > > > >>-- > >>== > >>Richard Finlayson > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > == > Richard Finlayson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
Re: Other boiler related topic
One quick comment and I'll bow out of this one!
On prototype locomotives, flu replacement is a regular maintenance item. In
fact various laws and such govern this. Roughly speaking every five years
they are pulled. Running a limited schedule at NJMT, flues will last upwards
of 10 to 15 years before they start to leak. This is of course a coal fired
boiler and plenty of mechanical "working" of the boiler and its components.
If it would help the steaming of my model locomotive, I would clean the
flues any way I needed to and if I had to replace the flues every 20 years
I'd be very happy. The advantages of a clean flue far out weigh the
potential damage from cleaning which will take decades to become a problem
in most cases.
On the prototype a trick used to clean the flues is to throw a shovel full
of sand into the firebox while the engine is working. It helps clean the
flues and screens.
H, well Ok. I suppose, that would not work in gauge 1!
J.R.
- Original Message -
From: Harry Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Other boiler related topic
> At 09:41 PM 2/3/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >So, to put you on the spot, Harry...
>
>Oh please please please don't throw me in that briar p . . . I mean
put
> me on the spot Richard. :-)
>
> >what do you think in terms of brushes in copper flues?
>
> Well, I may not be able to help you much, not ever having had an
> operating coal burner ("operating" being the key word), and not having
paid
> all that much attention to my large scale guys when they were cleaning
out.
> I do know they scrub them out pretty vigorously, with pretty stiff metal
> bristle brushes, some with flue brushes which are VERY agressive, but none
> that I know of were attempting to get the metal bright. There were also
as
> many or more with steel flues as copper, this makes a difference.
>
> >It took that old boiler down to shiny copper in a few strokes, with brush
> >marks visible. How could that not be taking copper off?
>
> If it's shiny then you're certainly removing a few bizillion molecules
> of copper but I'm not sure in the grand scheme of things it's hurt. I
mean
> if you play Dutch housewife and scrape it to bright after every steaming
> then of course the flues will go away much sooner than if you don't.
> A couple of thoughts, I use the thicker wall Type K copper in my
boiler
> flues, especially in the flues of boilers I know are going to be coal
> fired, for a couple of reasons, the most important one being that I know
> they are going to be subjected to regular scrubbing and the extra
thickness
> makes an allowance for that.
> Secondly it's a given that black or dull surfaces absorb heat much
> more readily than bright or slick surfaces. That being the case I figure
a
> matte black surface is actually a better heat absorber than bright copper.
> The accumulated additional thickness, and flow restriction, that layer
> might add to the flue wall is insignificant because in the intial design
> the flue should have been fudged to the next nearest larger size anyway to
> accomodate just such an accumulation.
> Watching large scalers again, they never want to get flues bright but
> rather the object is to take out the loose guano that accumulates during a
> run so as to get back down to a layer of matte black hardened soot which
> has become the "base" layer. My feeling would be that would be fine for
us
> too, except on a smaller scale.
>
> >List, am I obsessing here, or what? :-)
>
> Ummm . . . probably. But we all have our obsessions.
>
> >(none of that orange peel tulip petal hibiscus flower nonsense I presume)
>
> There is hope for you yet.
>
> Regards,
> Harry
>
>
>
Re: [SSSM] hi there
I would be deathly afraid of electrocution if you, or a youngster, touched both rails at the same time. I love the water scoop idea. Doing that in gauge 1 would be a blast. J.R. - Original Message - From: Ciambrone, Steve @ OS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [SSSM] hi there > If you can find out how many watts of power it takes to generate enough > steam to power a Loco then you can figure out what voltage you will need. > You would want to keep the current draw down so as to minimize the amount of > arcing on the wheels and track just the same as regular electric trains. > Some of the historical use of electricly powered live steam I believe used > 115VAC. The voltage was probably that high to keep the current low enough, > or their was not much available in the 20-30s. I would stick with meths or > gas and open a window. > > Steve > > > -Original Message- > > From: centaur_son [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 10:13 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [SSSM] hi there > > > > Having been interested in live steam trains a bit sometimes I was > > wondering about an indoor-safe steam engine. My idea was being to > > take a plain steam engine but replace the coal/oil with a electric > > heater feed that is track powered with either 18AC transformer or a > > custom transformer with on/off switch? This idea seem to not be bad > > and that the smoke is 100% safe indoor since its boiled water coming > > out of the stack just like a hissing kettle? > > > > Also seeing a few history information about such old set-up I was > > wondering about equipp a straight track with water scoop and make the > > tender to scoop that? I know it'll have to be full steam blast to > > get the speed to do that but still if it is possible I would have > > liked to add that as a sightseeing fun? > > > > Not sure about the layout since I just got this idea a few days ago, > > just started looking up information about live steam trains in small > > scales. > > > > Thanks for all due help. > > > > Flouty > > > > ~~~don't horse around too much~~~ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> > > Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck > > Monitoring Service trial > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/LaCslB/TM > > -~-> > > > > Promote this list to your friends who are interested in small scale live > > steam trains. > > > > The address for subscribing is: > > www.groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/small_scale_steam_models > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:This electronic transmission, including all > attachments, is > directed in confidence solely to the person(s) to whom it is addressed, or > an > authorized recipient, and may not otherwise be distributed, copied or > disclosed. The > contents of the transmission may also be subject to intellectual property > rights and > all such rights are expressly claimed and are not waived. If you have > received this > transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return > electronic > transmission and then immediately delete this transmission, including all > attachments, without copying, distributing or disclosing same. > > > >
Re: Boiler storage
Careful with the light bulb idea. Keith will remember the guy's name, but we had a Cagney up here at a local college and he stuck a bulb under the tarp to keep it warm at night in the cold weather. You guessed it! The bulb set the tarp on fire. What a mess. No real damage but he had to repaint the engine, rewire the head light and such. - Original Message - From: Keith Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:25 AM Subject: Boiler storage > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 5 or 2 > Walt, > Partial filling is the absolute worst thing you can imagine! In any water > you find, there are atoms of "free" oxygen floating around, disolved in the > water. This is oxygen not bonded to a hydrogen atom as a constiutent of > water. This oxygen is released, as the water settles, right at the water > line, and thus you have a super concentration of oxygen at the point where > the water level is! Guess what this causes, oxidation, big time! This is a > problem even when steaming, so you don't want to agravate the situation by > continuing to add to the problem during storage periods. The answer to your > question depends on how long it will be that you are storing the boiler for. > If it will only be a short period, I would recommend filling the boiler > completely to the top with water, to block out any air possible. For longer > periods, while the boiler is still rather warm, blow down the boiler > completely! Making sure to leave open a blower valve or throttle valve to > prevent creating a vacuum. If you forget, you can severely damage your > pressure gauge! You's be amazed at how strong a vacuum you can pull doing > this! It will suck the Bourdon tube of your pressure gauge flat, and if the > tender lines are still attached, will empty your tender into the boiler, so > that the boiler you thought empty, is now full of water again! Once the > boiler is empty, and dry as a result of blowing down while warm (not hot!) > some folks, here in the frigid northern climes, put a medium wattage light > bulb in the firebox, lighted, to keep things reasonably warm during the > storage period. > This has taken a little longer to tell than I'd like, but it is important. > Very truly yours, Keith Taylor- East Coast Secretary International > Brotherhood of Live Steamers > > > > > >
Re: 5 or 2
Filling has to be the worst thing you could do for long term storage. I can tell you that from hard earned experience. Copper and steel or iron really do not get along well in the long term and water simply makes it much worse. We try to drain while the water is slightly warm and leave the plugs out. Being NJ, we get condensation. I am trully surprised at the damage which is done by a slight bit of moisture in a stored boiler. It must be kept dry. The barrel, towards the cylinders in particular. That's where the worst damage is done. > The general consensus around S.E. PA( freezing temp. in Winter) is to either > fill completely or keep empty. Empty is best if the boiler is not subject to > high humidity areas where condensation can form in the boiler. Like in > treatment to keep the boiler clean and even clean up healthy but dirty > boilers. Blowing down the boiler at the end of the run day is always a good > thing to do. If you really want expert advice, check their website at > http://www.terlyn.com/ I will check the site. Many thanks. You really can never have too much data on this issue. > > This brings up a point I've been wondering about. Is it better to drain > the boiler after each run day, or fill it to the top, or just let is stand the > > way it was when you dropped the fire. Obviously there is a difference to > be considered re boiler material, but what experiences can you guys relate? You can pass a lot of beer on this topic. What ever the case, at the end of the day we bottle to the top. For several reasons. One is cold water takes less space that hot water. A lot less. As the water cools, you want to make sure there is enough water to fire the thing up next time. In our case that is either the next day or within a week. We tend to let our boilers cool slowly, letting the fire die a natural death. Thus plenty of water is needed to enure a covered crown sheet. Throttles never seat perfectly. Our shay in particular seems to weep the worst no matter what we do to it. So as it cools down, steam is being produced and weeps through the three engines. So again you want as much water as possible to cover steam leakage through the throttle.I am sure many will argue the benefits of dumping the fire and blowing out all the water and steam. So have the beer ready. Lots of it. > > I'm somewhat more concerned about the ferrous boilers on the 7.5" loco's See my note above. One more thing. You will be surprised by the corrosion that takes place OUTSIDE the boiler under the jacket. Again, condensation being held in the insulation. Or if it is stored outdoors, rain water gets caught in the material. Long term this is a killer. Corrosion on TOP of the Lady Edith's boiler shocked me. Appendix C forces you to pull that jacket off every five years for an inspection. Another damn good requirement. We are now looking at a heat resistant boiler coating (primer like) for outside shell of the boiler. Water might make them go, but it kills them in the long term. J.R.
1/2" Help
I am still new to this and this question actually deals with Gauge 3 I guess. Feel free to let me know if I screwed up! But does anyone have some particulars on European 4 cylinder, front coupled Atlantics. I assume mine is German from the little bit of data I have found on it plus I found German newpaper clippings in the tender tank. It is rough and I am restoring it now. Would like to know more about such an animal. Anyone have any leads? Thanks! J.R.
Re: Rummor control was Re: New Bio
Shoot, now I feel bad! Cheer up please! J.R. - Original Message - From: Terry Griner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Rummor control was Re: New Bio Well, I stand corrected. I have always felt that folks who say "I know this guy..." were a problem. Now I find I'm one if the problem guys... Sorry. Head hanging low, Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/02 01:35PM >>> There is an official report which I suggest you take a look at. It was five killed. I have the report, the names of the dead, and pictures of the ruptured vessel here on my desk. Trust me, it was lack of inspection and mechanical failure of the boiler. The safety valve never played a role. The thing would have failed before MAWP was ever reached. Stays had two threads of engagement, not 4.5 as called for. Crown sheet was .087 versus original .375. Fusible plug was still in tact, indicating plenty of water. Simple mechanical failure. If you are skinny I can show you first hand what deterioration looks like in a boiler. J.R. - Original Message - From: Terry Griner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Rummor control was Re: New Bio Not Chating with, being written a ticket by Sheriff's deputies. I used to ride the bus (mass transit) with a fellow who knew the operator and was in the area at the time. The operator was yelling that he didn't have time, and the deputy wanted him to wait, then boom. Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/02 11:51AM >>> Mike's correct -- it was two deaths, not five. And the cause, as I understand it, was not an uninspected boiler but rather an operator who was chatting with security guards (one of whom was killed in the explosion) instead of watching his water glass. Even recently inspected boilers will explode if not handled in the proper manner. -vance-
Re: 5 or 2
Guys, If you need data on narrow gauge prototypes or something like that, let me know. Like this boiler report, we tracked the explosion since the day it happened. One of the best sites is www.rypn.org which is the old Locomotive and Railway Preservation News site. I am not at my regular computer but I believe that is the correct address.My official copy of the Ohio/Pennsylvania report came from an Association of Railway Museum (ARM) convention. They have a web site also. Believe it or not, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) who you normally see investigating plane crashes, investigates boiler explosions also, including the one at Gettysburg just a few years ago. The details will make your hair stand on end. Several years ago, we had a defective lower tri-cock. I (abandoned by my brave comrades at this point) shut the locomotive down on the mainline and was towed in by a diesel. (The ultimate insult) It truly looked like the cock was going to pop off the backhead. When things were cool a few days later, we took it out and it was a hair line cut in the threads of the cock which allowed water (lots) to spray in a fan like pattern through out the cab, especially the engineers seat area which is quite cramped in a Shay. Looked worse than it was but my knees still shook for a week.Safety first though and no one was hurt at all. . J.R. - Original Message - From: Michael Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:18 AM Subject: Re: 5 or 2 > J.R., all, > > >From now on, I promise to do my fact checking in advance. > Indeed, five were killed in that tragic accident. I found a > version of the article at: www.ntet.co.uk/MedReport.html > > I guess I didn't want to believe that individuals could be > that careless or ignorant when lives other than their own > were at risk. > > Michael Martin > > http://www.panyo.com/steamups > > (SF Bay Area Steamup Images and Model Engineering) > >
Re: Rummor control was Re: New Bio
There is an official report which I suggest you take a look at. It was five killed. I have the report, the names of the dead, and pictures of the ruptured vessel here on my desk. Trust me, it was lack of inspection and mechanical failure of the boiler. The safety valve never played a role. The thing would have failed before MAWP was ever reached. Stays had two threads of engagement, not 4.5 as called for. Crown sheet was .087 versus original .375. Fusible plug was still in tact, indicating plenty of water. Simple mechanical failure. If you are skinny I can show you first hand what deterioration looks like in a boiler. J.R. - Original Message - From: Terry Griner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Rummor control was Re: New Bio Not Chating with, being written a ticket by Sheriff's deputies. I used to ride the bus (mass transit) with a fellow who knew the operator and was in the area at the time. The operator was yelling that he didn't have time, and the deputy wanted him to wait, then boom. Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/02 11:51AM >>> Mike's correct -- it was two deaths, not five. And the cause, as I understand it, was not an uninspected boiler but rather an operator who was chatting with security guards (one of whom was killed in the explosion) instead of watching his water glass. Even recently inspected boilers will explode if not handled in the proper manner. -vance-
Re: New Bio
National Board Inspection Code They put out a great newsletter as well. Try http://www.nationalboard.org Its an organization of boiler inspectors. The code has not been adopted by every state. If Ohio had adopted it, those 5 people would not have been killed in June 2001 at the Ohio fairgrounds when that tractor exploded. That thing should never had been steamed up. The report is available some place on line if you have not seen it. Funny how a ruptured crown sheet can launch a 18 ton tractor 12 feet into the air. J.R. - Original Message - From: Mike Eorgoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 10:48 AM Subject: Re: New Bio > What is NBIC? > > Mike Eorgoff > near Chicago > > - Original Message - > From: "NJMT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: New Bio > > > > > > David, > > Not a simple answer, in part because of the new boiler laws. Specifically > > Appendix C of the NBIC which covers hobby and antique boilers such as ours > > at NJMT. It is a good law, one I am truly in favor of, and that NJMT is > > > >
Re: New Bio
David, Not a simple answer, in part because of the new boiler laws. Specifically Appendix C of the NBIC which covers hobby and antique boilers such as ours at NJMT. It is a good law, one I am truly in favor of, and that NJMT is responding to. We took the Lady Edith out of service after starting the required ultra sound investigation and found thin spots. We are now embarking on achieving our R-Stamp status which will allow us to do our own boiler repairs which is key to keeping the old vessels in operation. Our current Porter restoration is our first internal R-Stamp project. If we are successful in the approval process for the Stamp, it makes restoration of the Quincy 6 feasible. She needs a new firebox, a $40,000 repair back in the 1970s when we got the estimate. If you could even find someone to do it today, it would be much more. With our own R-Stamp we can do the work for the cost of materials. The #6 is in very good condition and is stored indoors. Other than boiler repairs, she is a simple project requiring a new cab (its wood), tender frame (wood), and tender tank. Before being stored away by Quincy, she was well lubed and greased through out. Before we do the 6, I'd like to finish up the Lady. She is a joy to run, although some wimps complain about heat in the small cab. She goes like the wind and rides like a baby carriage. Side tanks must come off along with the boiler. Being English, the side sheets are a tight fit behind her plate frames. A big job for sure considering her age of 115 years. Oh, along with her copper firebox, she has an iron boiler! Makes welded repairs REAL interesting. Hope that answers your question. J.R. - Original Message - From: David J. Krause <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:38 AM Subject: New Bio > JR: What are the chances for a comment on the future of the Quincy & > Torch Lake #6, Anything still left of it? Some of us in Michigan sure > wish it was back here! David Krause > > >
New Bio
Just thought I'd throw on a short bio. (Feel like a new kid in school) Anyway, my name is J.R. May, residing in New Jersey, I have hung my hat at the 3' gauge Pine Creek Railroad/NJ Museum of Transportation since I was 11. Over the past 30 years I have spent a fair amount of time working on or running a Class B shay (Ely-Thomas #6) , a Baldwin 2-6-2 (SS&S #26), a Stephenson 4-4-0T (Ireland, C&L #3) or an assortment of diesels. Our members are currently restoring a 1912 Porter mogul.A partially complete 3/4" scale Atlantic resides in my home shop along with an antique 1/2" scale German 4 cylinder Atlantic. Dee (Keith Taylor brought it to my attention) sparked my interest in gauge 1 equipment, in part due to its English prototype. Please, if ever in NJ, feel free to contact me for a full tour of Pine Creek and perhaps a cab ride. Look forward to hearing from you all and building Dee. Thank you for you patience. J.R. May 732-295-8594 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
