Re: Boiler storage
> Thanks Paul, You're right--or I hope you are! Geoff. Geoff Spenceley wrote: >> >> >> When I was selling? air compressors, an "expert" on cooling liquids told me >> (after I "corrected?" him on something) that distilled water, have >> practically no minerals, will eat any minerals from metals that it can >> digest. >> >That would be very worrysome indeed, if only our boilers where made out >of calcium. I suspect you'll find precious little minerals in any metal >that's currently available for purchase.
Re: Boiler storage
Geoff Spenceley wrote: > > > When I was selling? air compressors, an "expert" on cooling liquids told me > (after I "corrected?" him on something) that distilled water, have > practically no minerals, will eat any minerals from metals that it can > digest. > That would be very worrysome indeed, if only our boilers where made out of calcium. I suspect you'll find precious little minerals in any metal that's currently available for purchase.
Re: Boiler storage
Thanks Walt, I am informed, To your second note, copied below- certainly. I'll join you in the research previously discussed., Ish'll be 'Appy to givsh a full re-hic-port! Thanks Harry for your kind words-to this old codger, I love to be humored. And, after Jim Burns has drained his Ruby/Mallet conversions, he can come and help Walt and I drain our glasses as we carry out our test (outside the post office, Jim??) When I was selling? air compressors, an "expert" on cooling liquids told me (after I "corrected?" him on something) that distilled water, have practically no minerals, will eat any minerals from metals that it can digest. Just wanted to open another can of worms. (keeping Dave happy too!!) Thanks list, Geoff. Care to join me in some meniscus research? We can try to determine if the depth of the solution, or mixture, in the glass changes characteristics of the meniscus as the level decreases. Because you are an expert in how to decrease the level of the fluid in the glass, I'll expect an 'in depth' report on your extensive research. Giving our all for scientific observation to promote the live steam community! Keep your steam up!
Re: Boiler storage - thermostats
> Careful with the light bulb idea. A couple of practical ideas, from a boat and well owner in MD, where it occassionally gets cold. Home depot sells two kinds of thermostats that turn things on or off at certain temperatures. The heating wire wrapped round the water pipe in my attic is connected to wall socket linked thru a thermostat designed for bathroom heaters - it turns off the power when a certain temperature is reached. (My bathrooms have them also, which is where I found out they were available. The electrician insisted on installing them - he'd seen the results when a heater was left on and all the makeup melted!) The attic thermostat is set to minimum, which is about 40 degrees. So it turns on the heater when the temp drops below that. Home depot also sells a GE 'winter watcher' (or something similar.) It's a thermostat that plugs into the wall and you plug something into it - it turns on when the temp drops low enough. [It is designed to turn on a light bulb, so your neighbor knows your heating has failed!] Minimum is about 30 degrees - I use one in my well pit with a large spotlight - it keeps the pipes from freezing, in theory. Finally, if you visit a boat store in the Fall, you'll find an "engine room heater". My boat has one - it turns on at 45 and off at 55. These solutions keep the juice flowing only when you need it. My steam engines stay indoors and get drained after each use. But they are small scale, which is where we came in Pete
Re: Boiler storage
Geoff Spenceley wrote: > > > Why? I always leave water (distilled) a little, or a lot depending on > how I end steaming on a particular day. > The thing I've always seen was to wait until there was maybe 20psi left in the boiler, then crack the blowdown valve. The remnant steam blows any remaining water out of the boiler. This also has the beneficial side-effect of blowing any scum that may be on the water's surface out of the boiler, and helping to clean out other crud. As for nitrogen, couldn't it be replaced with a SCUBA tank? Compressed air out of a SCUBA tank ought to be dry as a bone. > My Aster Schools is nigh on thirty > years old--should I turn it into the scrap yard??--it still runs O.K. > Admitted, none of my locos are exposed to freezing temps. > Any boiler needs periodic hydro and manual inspection. Whether water is kept in it or not, distilled water used or not, etc. They all need periodical inspection.
Re: Boiler storage
Thank goodness for deep thinkers like Walt and Geoff! I was seated on a stool, draining water from the several Rubies I own and preparing to attack the boiler vent holes with a second hand hair blower, properly protected with SPF 15 cream, when the message arrived from them. My slightly altered program will include bourbon and a big "Don't worry about it" sign. Thanks for everyone else's advice, but these two gentlemen, frequently pictured side by side in Post Offices across the country, are my mentors! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Geoff, > Care to join me in some meniscus research? We can try to determine if the > depth of the solution, or mixture, in the glass changes characteristics of > the meniscus as the level decreases. Because you are an expert in how to > decrease the level of the fluid in the glass, I'll expect an 'in depth' > report on your extensive research. > Giving our all for scientific observation to promote the live steam community! > Keep your steam up! > B. W. Lunkenheimer
Re: Boiler storage
At 05:00 PM 2/1/02 -0800, you wrote: > Greetings list, >Geoff--Burp! Give 'em 'ell Geoff! A man who knows the roar of splitting hairs when he hear's it. :-) Regards, Harry
Re: Boiler storage
Geoff, Care to join me in some meniscus research? We can try to determine if the depth of the solution, or mixture, in the glass changes characteristics of the meniscus as the level decreases. Because you are an expert in how to decrease the level of the fluid in the glass, I'll expect an 'in depth' report on your extensive research. Giving our all for scientific observation to promote the live steam community! Keep your steam up! B. W. Lunkenheimer
Re: Boiler storage
I'm not so sure about the oxygen enriched layer. Seems like there would be enough convection currents, Brownian movement, etc., etc., to preclude much of an oxygen enrichment zone. In my mind, I'd be inclined to think that the meniscus at the surface of the water and the wall surface of the metal would play a more important role. The thickness of the meniscus lessens as the distance from the free water surface increases. At some point you get down to a monomolecular layer water molecules that could possibly have 02 or 03 molecules trying to occupy the voids between the polar water molecules. That could be a very active site for rust formation, etc. Those yucky rings that form when a salty solution evaporates from an open container are the result of this process. Rust and chemically induced defoliation of the metal surface could also be the result. After all this, I think I'll observe the meniscus resulting from the mixing of single malt Scotch, or Irish whiskey with a small bit of hardened water and determine, if I can see well enough, what happens. If possible, I'll report the results later! Keep your steam up! Mr. Lunkenheimer's associate
Re: Boiler storage
here's a couple of cents from me. there is a difference in the effects of water on copper vs steel royce in SB Geoff Spenceley wrote: > Greetings list, > > I'm impressed, I'm also in deep haddock's water judging by this list > discussion on boilers and water. I'm about to have a nervous breakdown! > > Why? I always leave water (distilled) a little, or a lot depending on > how I end steaming on a particular day. My Aster Schools is nigh on thirty > years old--should I turn it into the scrap yard??--it still runs O.K. > Admitted, none of my locos are exposed to freezing temps. > > Then my friend has his 45 year old 3/4" scale loco that has always had > water left in the boiler. > --it is a fantastic runner. To the scrap heap, I guess. > > I sure am glad I run my trains, have fun. So while youall conjugate and > worry, I'm off to fire up my Schools with it's "always" partly watered > boiler. > > With fire and steam, > > Geoff--Burp! > >
Re: Boiler storage
Greetings list, I'm impressed, I'm also in deep haddock's water judging by this list discussion on boilers and water. I'm about to have a nervous breakdown! Why? I always leave water (distilled) a little, or a lot depending on how I end steaming on a particular day. My Aster Schools is nigh on thirty years old--should I turn it into the scrap yard??--it still runs O.K. Admitted, none of my locos are exposed to freezing temps. Then my friend has his 45 year old 3/4" scale loco that has always had water left in the boiler. --it is a fantastic runner. To the scrap heap, I guess. I sure am glad I run my trains, have fun. So while youall conjugate and worry, I'm off to fire up my Schools with it's "always" partly watered boiler. With fire and steam, Geoff--Burp!
RE: Boiler storage
Well, I know at least one guy who thought it better not to put it in the firebox! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Keith Taylor Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:45 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Boiler storage J.R. & List. Notice in my posting, I said to put it in the firebox. If your firebox isn't fire proof, you are in some serious trouble! Keith - Original Message - From: NJMT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Boiler storage > Careful with the light bulb idea. Keith will remember the guy's name, but > we had a Cagney up here at a local college and he stuck a bulb under the > tarp to keep it warm at night in the cold weather. > > You guessed it! The bulb set the tarp on fire. What a mess. No real > damage but he had to repaint the engine, rewire the head light and such. > > > - Original Message - > From: Keith Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:25 AM > Subject: Boiler storage > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: 5 or 2 > > Walt, > > Partial filling is the absolute worst thing you can imagine! In any water > > you find, there are atoms of "free" oxygen floating around, disolved in > the > > water. This is oxygen not bonded to a hydrogen atom as a constiutent of > > water. This oxygen is released, as the water settles, right at the water > > line, and thus you have a super concentration of oxygen at the point where > > the water level is! Guess what this causes, oxidation, big time! This is a > > problem even when steaming, so you don't want to agravate the situation by > > continuing to add to the problem during storage periods. The answer to > your > > question depends on how long it will be that you are storing the boiler > for. > > If it will only be a short period, I would recommend filling the boiler > > completely to the top with water, to block out any air possible. For > longer > > periods, while the boiler is still rather warm, blow down the boiler > > completely! Making sure to leave open a blower valve or throttle valve to > > prevent creating a vacuum. If you forget, you can severely damage your > > pressure gauge! You's be amazed at how strong a vacuum you can pull doing > > this! It will suck the Bourdon tube of your pressure gauge flat, and if > the > > tender lines are still attached, will empty your tender into the boiler, > so > > that the boiler you thought empty, is now full of water again! Once the > > boiler is empty, and dry as a result of blowing down while warm (not hot!) > > some folks, here in the frigid northern climes, put a medium wattage light > > bulb in the firebox, lighted, to keep things reasonably warm during the > > storage period. > > This has taken a little longer to tell than I'd like, but it is important. > > Very truly yours, Keith Taylor- East Coast Secretary International > > Brotherhood of Live Steamers > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
RE: Boiler storage
True. Enough of the big stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Harry Wade Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Boiler storage At 02:15 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >Careful with the light bulb idea. All this is far afield from what we're concerned about in Ga1 but as long as we're at it, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using a very small muffin fan to keep air circulating through a stored boiler. In 7-1/2" ga there would be openings that would be large enough and it seems to me it would do the job. It could be put on a timer to run for a while each day. Regards, Harry
Re: Boiler storage
J.R. & List. Notice in my posting, I said to put it in the firebox. If your firebox isn't fire proof, you are in some serious trouble! Keith - Original Message - From: NJMT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Boiler storage > Careful with the light bulb idea. Keith will remember the guy's name, but > we had a Cagney up here at a local college and he stuck a bulb under the > tarp to keep it warm at night in the cold weather. > > You guessed it! The bulb set the tarp on fire. What a mess. No real > damage but he had to repaint the engine, rewire the head light and such. > > > - Original Message - > From: Keith Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:25 AM > Subject: Boiler storage > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: 5 or 2 > > Walt, > > Partial filling is the absolute worst thing you can imagine! In any water > > you find, there are atoms of "free" oxygen floating around, disolved in > the > > water. This is oxygen not bonded to a hydrogen atom as a constiutent of > > water. This oxygen is released, as the water settles, right at the water > > line, and thus you have a super concentration of oxygen at the point where > > the water level is! Guess what this causes, oxidation, big time! This is a > > problem even when steaming, so you don't want to agravate the situation by > > continuing to add to the problem during storage periods. The answer to > your > > question depends on how long it will be that you are storing the boiler > for. > > If it will only be a short period, I would recommend filling the boiler > > completely to the top with water, to block out any air possible. For > longer > > periods, while the boiler is still rather warm, blow down the boiler > > completely! Making sure to leave open a blower valve or throttle valve to > > prevent creating a vacuum. If you forget, you can severely damage your > > pressure gauge! You's be amazed at how strong a vacuum you can pull doing > > this! It will suck the Bourdon tube of your pressure gauge flat, and if > the > > tender lines are still attached, will empty your tender into the boiler, > so > > that the boiler you thought empty, is now full of water again! Once the > > boiler is empty, and dry as a result of blowing down while warm (not hot!) > > some folks, here in the frigid northern climes, put a medium wattage light > > bulb in the firebox, lighted, to keep things reasonably warm during the > > storage period. > > This has taken a little longer to tell than I'd like, but it is important. > > Very truly yours, Keith Taylor- East Coast Secretary International > > Brotherhood of Live Steamers > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Boiler storage
At 02:15 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >Careful with the light bulb idea. All this is far afield from what we're concerned about in Ga1 but as long as we're at it, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using a very small muffin fan to keep air circulating through a stored boiler. In 7-1/2" ga there would be openings that would be large enough and it seems to me it would do the job. It could be put on a timer to run for a while each day. Regards, Harry
Re: Boiler storage
Careful with the light bulb idea. Keith will remember the guy's name, but we had a Cagney up here at a local college and he stuck a bulb under the tarp to keep it warm at night in the cold weather. You guessed it! The bulb set the tarp on fire. What a mess. No real damage but he had to repaint the engine, rewire the head light and such. - Original Message - From: Keith Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:25 AM Subject: Boiler storage > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: 5 or 2 > Walt, > Partial filling is the absolute worst thing you can imagine! In any water > you find, there are atoms of "free" oxygen floating around, disolved in the > water. This is oxygen not bonded to a hydrogen atom as a constiutent of > water. This oxygen is released, as the water settles, right at the water > line, and thus you have a super concentration of oxygen at the point where > the water level is! Guess what this causes, oxidation, big time! This is a > problem even when steaming, so you don't want to agravate the situation by > continuing to add to the problem during storage periods. The answer to your > question depends on how long it will be that you are storing the boiler for. > If it will only be a short period, I would recommend filling the boiler > completely to the top with water, to block out any air possible. For longer > periods, while the boiler is still rather warm, blow down the boiler > completely! Making sure to leave open a blower valve or throttle valve to > prevent creating a vacuum. If you forget, you can severely damage your > pressure gauge! You's be amazed at how strong a vacuum you can pull doing > this! It will suck the Bourdon tube of your pressure gauge flat, and if the > tender lines are still attached, will empty your tender into the boiler, so > that the boiler you thought empty, is now full of water again! Once the > boiler is empty, and dry as a result of blowing down while warm (not hot!) > some folks, here in the frigid northern climes, put a medium wattage light > bulb in the firebox, lighted, to keep things reasonably warm during the > storage period. > This has taken a little longer to tell than I'd like, but it is important. > Very truly yours, Keith Taylor- East Coast Secretary International > Brotherhood of Live Steamers > > > > > >
