Re: ssBoilers
Hmmn, shame you don't recognise a 1:1 photo when you see it. This sort of spoofing is not helpful to those trying to support a responsible attitude to live steam. And yes I do have a sense og humor!. sam E Bruce Gathman wrote: > > I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not properly attended > to. > > >http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Explosion.jpg > > On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:11:45 -0600, you wrote: > > > Like so many others on the list, I too have heard the "urban legend" about a > >friend of a friend who had a small boiler erupt. That's probably all it is. A > >legend. In fact the only proof that I've ever seen is of a 1:1 scale steamer. ( I > >have pictures of that one if anyone is interested. SCARY!) > > I can personally attest to the solder joints on one of our small boilers > >withstanding quite abnormal conditions. I crushed a Roundhouse boiler during a truck > >wreck. The boiler was completely destroyed but the solder joints were still intact. > >Even in the areas that received heavy damage. > > Looking back, I wish that I had kept the boiler and given it to Roundhouse. At the > >time of the wreck I felt rather lucky to be alive and wanted nothing as a reminder > >of the incident so I threw the boiler in the scrap hopper at work after my insurance > >adjuster saw it. I even threw the pictures away later. > > > >Later, > >Trent > > > >P.S.- Usual disclaimers. Not associated with Roundhouse, I just buy their products. > > > > >
Re: ssBoilers
Salty, The reason this photo being shown to us disturbs me, is we are being asked to make a connection to our activities, and it just isn't there. What is there, though, are the real things that do hurt people in our live steam hobby. Like passengers falling off or out of riding cars, tripping over treestumps, getting burnt fingers, cinders burning holes in clothing, things in eyes, falling over while crossing the high-line. We get all these and more annually. The only boiler failure I can recall was reported in Model Engineer about 40-50 years ago where a boiler seam failed and the resulting energy popped a drive wheel off its axle, plus an Australian Briggs boiler built to their code of the time where the firebox coil failed and caused the owner scalds. I just hope that we don't neglect the real safety issues by getting dazzled by the unlikely. Peter Trounce. -- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: ssBoilers > Date: Thursday, December 07, 2000 4:05 PM > > In a message dated 00-12-07 15:48:36 EST, you write: > > << I'd like to know what model has actually done this in the last 100+ > years of model building ? >> >Actually there have been none according to Vance and Harry Wade. The > potential exists. > The point that I was trying to make was to get educated on building and > testing boilers before attempting to build or modify. I do not want to see > anyone hurt or a bunch of government regulations imposed upon this hobby. > > Salty
Re: ssBoilers
At 06:17 AM 12/7/00 -0600, Charles Brumbelow wrote: >If my mental arithmetic and memory are both right, Gauge 3 IS 1:20.3 >standard gauge. Nope, Gauge 3 is 1:22.6 scale and track gauge is 2.5" or 63.5mm. pf
Re: ssBoilers
In a message dated 00-12-07 15:48:36 EST, you write: << I'd like to know what model has actually done this in the last 100+ years of model building ? >> Actually there have been none according to Vance and Harry Wade. The potential exists. The point that I was trying to make was to get educated on building and testing boilers before attempting to build or modify. I do not want to see anyone hurt or a bunch of government regulations imposed upon this hobby. Salty
Re: ssBoilers
Bruce, I'm not clear just how this new group is supposed to differ from the one we're now on. Can you clarify what you intended to be discussed over there and what you think is better suited here? thanks, -vance-
Re: ssBoilers
Same experience here. So I just rejoined again and got the photo. Which was nothing to do with models. I don't know if the thought was that this would happen to one of our boilers if "not properly attended." If so, I'd like to know what model has actually done this in the last 100+ years of model building ? Peter Trounce. -- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: ssBoilers > Date: Thursday, December 07, 2000 1:09 PM > > In a message dated 00-12-07 07:51:38 EST, you write: > > << I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not properly > attended > to. > > > http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Exp lo > > sion.jpg >> >Well I tried this and it tells me that I am not a member of > small_scale_steam_models and I do not have access!! Maybe I should be, How > do I get to be a member of this list? > Salty
RE: ssBoilers
Steve, OK, I joined the group--greatBut when I go to the exp site by clicking on it I get an OOPS message--File not found on the server. Thanks for the att. anyway-- but it didn't come thru as a JPG My boiler is waiting to blow--HELP!! Geoff This photo is a full size locomotive not a model. > >A few months ago I built a vertical boiler kit from PM research and it was >an enjoyable project. Bought the feed pump which doubles as a hydrostatic >test pump and it tested fine the first go around no leaks, drips, or errors. >Trying to figure out if I can use it on a small scale loco. > >Steve Ciambrone > > -Original Message- > From: Bruce Gathman [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 4:50 AM > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam > Subject:Re: ssBoilers > > I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not >properly attended > to. > > >http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Exp >losion.jpg
Re: ssBoilers
In a message dated 00-12-07 13:34:14 EST, you write: << oin the Small Scale Steam Models email group at Egroups for all things live steam trains. Just click on the following url: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/small_scale_steam_models >> Got there and signed up. Thank you very much!!! Looks like a good place to waste a lot of time :-) Salty
Re: ssBoilers
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:09:04 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 00-12-07 07:51:38 EST, you write: > ><< I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not properly >attended > to. > > >http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Explo > >sion.jpg >> > Well I tried this and it tells me that I am not a member of >small_scale_steam_models and I do not have access!! Maybe I should be, How >do I get to be a member of this list? >Salty Join the Small Scale Steam Models email group at Egroups for all things live steam trains. Just click on the following url: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/small_scale_steam_models
Re: ssBoilers
In a message dated 00-12-07 07:51:38 EST, you write: << I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not properly attended to. http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Explo sion.jpg >> Well I tried this and it tells me that I am not a member of small_scale_steam_models and I do not have access!! Maybe I should be, How do I get to be a member of this list? Salty
RE: ssBoilers
This photo is a full size locomotive not a model.
A few months ago I built a vertical boiler kit from PM research and it was
an enjoyable project. Bought the feed pump which doubles as a hydrostatic
test pump and it tested fine the first go around no leaks, drips, or errors.
Trying to figure out if I can use it on a small scale loco.
Steve Ciambrone
-Original Message-
From: Bruce Gathman [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 4:50 AM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject:Re: ssBoilers
I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not
properly attended
to.
http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Exp
losion.jpg
On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:11:45 -0600, you wrote:
> Like so many others on the list, I too have heard the "urban
legend" about a
>friend of a friend who had a small boiler erupt. That's probably
all it is. A
>legend. In fact the only proof that I've ever seen is of a 1:1
scale steamer. ( I
>have pictures of that one if anyone is interested. SCARY!)
> I can personally attest to the solder joints on one of our small
boilers
>withstanding quite abnormal conditions. I crushed a Roundhouse
boiler during a truck
>wreck. The boiler was completely destroyed but the solder joints
were still intact.
>Even in the areas that received heavy damage.
> Looking back, I wish that I had kept the boiler and given it to
Roundhouse. At the
>time of the wreck I felt rather lucky to be alive and wanted
nothing as a reminder
>of the incident so I threw the boiler in the scrap hopper at work
after my insurance
>adjuster saw it. I even threw the pictures away later.
>
>Later,
>Trent
>
>P.S.- Usual disclaimers. Not associated with Roundhouse, I just buy
their products.
>
>
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Re: ssBoilers
Harry replied to my previous note off-line and, among other things, mentioned his usual prices for Gauge 1 boilers. I finally put 2 and 2 together and came to an interesting realization. Their cost is about what Roundhouse charges for their boilers, with the big difference that they're custom-designed for each buyer's locomotive. -vance-
Re: ssBoilers
I,ve uploaded a photo of what happens to your boiler when not properly attended to. http://www.egroups.com/files/small_scale_steam_models/Locomotives/Boiler+Explosion.jpg On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:11:45 -0600, you wrote: > Like so many others on the list, I too have heard the "urban legend" about a >friend of a friend who had a small boiler erupt. That's probably all it is. A >legend. In fact the only proof that I've ever seen is of a 1:1 scale steamer. ( I >have pictures of that one if anyone is interested. SCARY!) > I can personally attest to the solder joints on one of our small boilers >withstanding quite abnormal conditions. I crushed a Roundhouse boiler during a truck >wreck. The boiler was completely destroyed but the solder joints were still intact. >Even in the areas that received heavy damage. > Looking back, I wish that I had kept the boiler and given it to Roundhouse. At the >time of the wreck I felt rather lucky to be alive and wanted nothing as a reminder >of the incident so I threw the boiler in the scrap hopper at work after my insurance >adjuster saw it. I even threw the pictures away later. > >Later, >Trent > >P.S.- Usual disclaimers. Not associated with Roundhouse, I just buy their products. > >
Re: ssBoilers
If my mental arithmetic and memory are both right, Gauge 3 IS 1:20.3 standard gauge. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I guess gauge-3 counts as "small scale" - it's smaller than 1:20.3 standard > gauge! >
Re: ssBoilers
Like so many others on the list, I too have heard the "urban legend" about a friend of a friend who had a small boiler erupt. That's probably all it is. A legend. In fact the only proof that I've ever seen is of a 1:1 scale steamer. ( I have pictures of that one if anyone is interested. SCARY!) I can personally attest to the solder joints on one of our small boilers withstanding quite abnormal conditions. I crushed a Roundhouse boiler during a truck wreck. The boiler was completely destroyed but the solder joints were still intact. Even in the areas that received heavy damage. Looking back, I wish that I had kept the boiler and given it to Roundhouse. At the time of the wreck I felt rather lucky to be alive and wanted nothing as a reminder of the incident so I threw the boiler in the scrap hopper at work after my insurance adjuster saw it. I even threw the pictures away later. Later, Trent P.S.- Usual disclaimers. Not associated with Roundhouse, I just buy their products.
Re: ssBoilers
> As he builds model boilers for part of his lively hood he is well > qualified to make his remarks. Harry is one of the best-qualified people I know to speak on the subject of small-scale steam boilers. But he'd laugh at the characterization of boiler- making as part of his livelihood -- I think he told me he makes about minimum wage on them (minimum wage for 1967, that is). Just like the rest of us, he does it because he loves it, for which we're all grateful! -vance-
Re: ssBoilers
Thank you Jim for passing on Harry's very to the point message on model boilers. Also, Mike is quite correct that testing is of paramount necessity. Those of you who are just learning about boiler making should read the books available and not fear trying it. I think the most important thing involved in soldering a boiler is the cleanliness of your joints. Being as copper requires a lot of heat and oxidizes, the cleaning and fluxing of the joints will be the road to success. In the actual soldering process, heating the vessel evenly will also help prevent oxidation and premature failure of the flux. Bob Starr
Re: ssBoilers
Thank you for posting Harry's message. He states our case very well. I have known Harry for 10 years now and find he is usually right on the mark. As he builds model boilers for part of his lively hood he is well qualified to make his remarks. Jim Curry wrote: > > To the list members: > > Harry Wade, an engineer/architect and experienced model engineering boiler > maker has been monitoring the conversation and offers the following > thoughts. IMHO I think he makes an intelligent case for keeping the > conversation on an instructional level, not a paranoid level.
Re: ssBoilers
To the list members: Harry Wade, an engineer/architect and experienced model engineering boiler maker has been monitoring the conversation and offers the following thoughts. IMHO I think he makes an intelligent case for keeping the conversation on an instructional level, not a paranoid level. Jim Curry Harry Wade wrote: Jim, I'm not on the SS live steamers list so would you post this for me? Read it and if you'd rather not post it on my behalf, that's OK. Thanks, Harry In reponse to SaltyCrab's post on boilers, and others: Subject: Re: Silver Solder/Soldering "As a retired professional weldor/machinist I feel that I should say that attempting to properly silver solder a pressure vessel such as a boiler is not something that should be undertaken by an amature with little or no training." - SaltyChief Dear List, In writing this response it is not my wish to rant or create controversy, nor do I want diminish Salty's previous life's work and his not insignificant experience, and I share his general concern about safety and proper use of materials and equipment. However I must respond to his comments. First, in my opinion, it is important that what I call "boiler yarns" do not get started, or worse begin to be taken as gospel. In this day where any problem no matter how small seems to take on hysterical proportions if the media or the lawyers get hold of it, boiler yarns, put in the wrong ears, could be very damaging to the future of the hobby. We must deal only in facts for our own protection. We do NOT need to casually include terms such as "metal fragments", or any such exaggerated terms, in connection with any discussion of our model boilers. We are now in the 125th year (±) of active, organized building of miniature boilers by amateurs. I've done research on this and Vance is essentially correct when he says there has never been a documented model boiler explosion, where explosion means "the structural failure of a vessel resulting in the catastrophic release of energy". There have been any number of documented non-catastrophic locomotive boiler failures, none of which resulted in serious personal injury requiring hospitalization. However there have been two deaths, both from a non-failure accident with a full size (but amateur owned and operated ) steam launch boiler. This accident was caused by human error on the part of the insurance boiler inspector, not the owner or builder. This is a truly amazing record, and the overwhelming majority of builders who share this record are amateurs. Therefore I don't believe the professional vs. amateur question has a place here. This whole pursuit is an amateur one, started by amateurs, practiced by amateurs, regulated by amateurs, and as evidenced by our record, amateurs can do anything they set their mind to and do it well. Salty, you may have been a professional welder but you are you not now, like the rest of us, an AMATEUR train or boiler builder? Miniature copper boiler building is now a highly refined practice. The basic rules have all been set, so to speak, for a long time and little is left to argue except the questions of personal preference and developing new ways of using the basic rules. Still the basic rules won't change. In addition, it is important to hold in mind that designing and building miniature boilers does not necessarily have anything at all to do with full size boilers or welding or soldering practices although many people will try to introduce that into the discussion. You can't scale nature so it doesn't necessarily follow that what is appropriate for full size use is also appropriate for miniature copper boilers. There are SOME commonalities but those are coincidental but what might have been done "down at the plant" won't necessarily be appropriate for us. This is our own science and there is no need for the "professional" world to drop in and make a few changes. However, the original British name for what we do was "model and experimental engineering" and we have tended to be the first to adopt for our work the latest and greatest technology in the industrial world. I should think we'd want to continue to do so. The building of a miniature boiler is a craft, and like all crafts requires skill to be successful and skill comes from learning and practice. It is immaterial where that learning and practice come from, whether it be from a formal metalworking class or out behind the barn with a good book. Someone with great ability but no desire will never become skilled no matter how many classes one takes. Someone with a little ability and a lot of desire to do good work can become an artisan. The processes are very simple and basic and anybody can do it as long as a few guidelines for tools and materials are followed. Sa
Re: ssBoilers
> Funnily enough, last night I was reading the Gauge-3 Society Newsletter, and > there's a report by Raymond Wallis that he 'heard' of a small steam boiler > bursting. (Still not a first-hand account, but at least a rumor.) I heard that a UFO crashed in Roswell in 1947, too, but so far no one has been able to cough up any evidence. I'm not saying it _can't_ happen, just that the safety record has been exceptionally good up until now -- almost perfect. Gauge 3 certainly counts, but I'll change "never" to "once" when I see the evidence. Third- or fourth-hand reports don't make it. -vance-
Re: ssBoilers
In a message dated 12/6/00 3:01:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Luckily, the hobby as a whole seems to have shared your concern, and > accidents involving small-scale boilers are so rare as to be almost > nonexistent. This isn't to say that none of us has burnt a finger or set ties > afire, but no one has EVER recorded a boiler explosion or a serious injury in > a small-scale live steamer. Vance et al, Funnily enough, last night I was reading the Gauge-3 Society Newsletter, and there's a report by Raymond Wallis that he 'heard' of a small steam boiler bursting. (Still not a first-hand account, but at least a rumor.) I guess gauge-3 counts as "small scale" - it's smaller than 1:20.3 standard gauge! Pete
