RE: American Project?
Pete, Nothing new on the American Project from me. I've been busy with the summer honey-do list. Not sure about Steve Boylan's loco, his website hasn't been updated since Nov.'02. are you the PeteH for Baraboo, WI that posts on the G1MRA Yahoo group?? I'm originally from Madison. Ken Vogel Co USA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of PeteH Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 9:21 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: American Project? Has anyone heard the latest on the American Project? PeteH
Re: American Project?
I totally understand! Doesn't look like I will be laying track this year, haven't even started the pond yet! Yup, that would be me. I went to high-school in Westfield with a Ken Vogel? PeteH Baraboo WI - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pete, Nothing new on the American Project from me. I've been busy with the summer honey-do list. Not sure about Steve Boylan's loco, his website hasn't been updated since Nov.'02. are you the PeteH for Baraboo, WI that posts on the G1MRA Yahoo group?? I'm originally from Madison. Ken Vogel Co USA
Re: American project jpegs
Looks good! I think it would be a nice project for someone like me, limited machine skills, but lots of spare time. As to the fastener debate, I like the idea of giving general specs for diameter, length and material, then let the builder decide on threads. The wagon top boiler looks a little spooky, but Vance's idea of an outer wrapper would work. I await the Guru from Tenn.'s input on the boiler. Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/12/03 11:59AM Hi all, I just posted a few jpegs of the American project solid models, if anyone is interested. The website address is: http://moosedog.home.mindspring.com/ Remember, it's a work in progress so everything isn't necessarily in place or in it's final form. Ken
Re: American project jpegs
- Original Message - From: XXYZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: American project jpegs Hi all, I just posted a few jpegs of the American project solid models, if anyone is interested. Looks great, Ken! Art Walker
RE: American project jpegs
Terry, Looks good! I think it would be a nice project for someone like me, limited machine skills, but lots of spare time. Thanks! I am a novice machinist as well, so that was my intent. I am a professional engineer so machining inside the PC is easy. I'm also kind of a tool hound and the design will probably assume that the builder owns a lathe and a mill (or at least a milling attachment) and a moderate set of set-up and hand tools. The creative machinist should be able to do the project with less. The wagon top boiler looks a little spooky, but Vance's idea of an outer wrapper would work. I'm a bit unsure on this as well but I will continue on this course until I prove to myself that it can't be done. I think the key to this is to have a very accurate template to cut the tapered course with. Of course, this is easy to get with the CAD system. I have already rolled the taper using a paper print out, and it was dead on. I don't think rolling copper will be too bad with some patience. The tapered course is only about an inch wide. I will buy a sheet of copper and try to roll this using the rod foam sheet method to see if it's do-able. There would be only one less joint using Vance's false wagon-top idea, but I think this would be a good alternative for those that are intimidated by the taper (or if the taper is way to difficult to do). A straight boiler shell is always an option as well, although less esthetically interesting. Ken
Re: American project jpegs
ken: i forget ... have you spec'd a burner yet? \dmc At 9:59 AM -0700 3/12/03, XXYZ wrote: Hi all, I just posted a few jpegs of the American project solid models, if anyone is interested. The website address is: http://moosedog.home.mindspring.com/ Remember, it's a work in progress so everything isn't necessarily in place or in it's final form. Ken -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
RE: American project jpegs
At 11:17 AM -0700 3/12/03, XXYZ wrote: Why, Any ideas? no, just curious. \dmc -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: American Project
Hi Steve . I have been looking at the profile mag on the early american 4-4-0 and if you are interested I think I have come up with a very simple but strong frame for this engine ;; it would be very easy for the novice to produce . Graham.S . - Original Message - From: mdenning [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: Re: American Project I love it !?!?! Finally a web site for the Locomotive That Changed the World (Our little side of it anyway) - Original Message - From: steve boylan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:22 PM Subject: Re: American Project Okay, time for me to chime in with my plugged nickle's worth. Sorry it took me so long, but the first couple weeks of October were pretty hectic. I'm just now making my way back to the subject of a 1:32 scale project based on the 4-4-0 American locomotive ... ... which I think would be a great project, and it's an idea I've been toying with for a while. I had been collecting some general prototype information over the summer, and sketching out ideas about what a workable model would look like. The conversation on this subject over the last couple of weeks has finally pushed me into doing something about it! So I've done what any self-respecting 21st century modeller would do: started a Web site. I see the domain registration hit the DNS server this morning, so you can now view the site at: http://www.440american.org T'ain't much there yet, but it's a start. I'm hoping other folks will be willing to join in and contribute knowledge, ideas, and maybe even a drawing or two as time goes on. Let the kibbitzing begin! - - Steve
Re: American Project
Okay, time for me to chime in with my plugged nickle's worth. Sorry it took me so long, but the first couple weeks of October were pretty hectic. I'm just now making my way back to the subject of a 1:32 scale project based on the 4-4-0 American locomotive ... ... which I think would be a great project, and it's an idea I've been toying with for a while. I had been collecting some general prototype information over the summer, and sketching out ideas about what a workable model would look like. The conversation on this subject over the last couple of weeks has finally pushed me into doing something about it! So I've done what any self-respecting 21st century modeller would do: started a Web site. I see the domain registration hit the DNS server this morning, so you can now view the site at: http://www.440american.org T'ain't much there yet, but it's a start. I'm hoping other folks will be willing to join in and contribute knowledge, ideas, and maybe even a drawing or two as time goes on. Let the kibbitzing begin! - - Steve
Re: American Project
At 12:22 PM 10/11/02 -0400, you wrote: Let the kibbitzing begin! Steve It is inconceivable that eventually I shouldn't have something to add to this project, but I haven't got the wind in me right now, except to say that 4-4-0's are probably my favorite locomotive configuration and I have done a lot of study of them, some on how they can be best translated into miniature form, although not necessarily Ga1. Stay tuned. Regards, Harry
Re: American Project
I love it !?!?! Finally a web site for the Locomotive That Changed the World (Our little side of it anyway) - Original Message - From: steve boylan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:22 PM Subject: Re: American Project Okay, time for me to chime in with my plugged nickle's worth. Sorry it took me so long, but the first couple weeks of October were pretty hectic. I'm just now making my way back to the subject of a 1:32 scale project based on the 4-4-0 American locomotive ... ... which I think would be a great project, and it's an idea I've been toying with for a while. I had been collecting some general prototype information over the summer, and sketching out ideas about what a workable model would look like. The conversation on this subject over the last couple of weeks has finally pushed me into doing something about it! So I've done what any self-respecting 21st century modeller would do: started a Web site. I see the domain registration hit the DNS server this morning, so you can now view the site at: http://www.440american.org T'ain't much there yet, but it's a start. I'm hoping other folks will be willing to join in and contribute knowledge, ideas, and maybe even a drawing or two as time goes on. Let the kibbitzing begin! - - Steve
Re: American Project
After looking at the website, it strikes me that a suggestion in this thread has a lot of merit. Someone mentioned using LBSC's Virginia as a starting point. I got out my copy of the book and reread what he says about building the loco as gauge 1 rather than as 3 1/2 gauge. Everything is there to enable someone used to machining for live steam to make the engine. However, it does need to be detailed and drawn out for someone new to machining and live steam. Specifically, the Smithies boiler with downcomer, the construction and placement of the lubricator, the throttle, the burner (whether alcohol or oil) and (if desired) the slip eccentric valve gear (and I am sure a few other things) would have to be detailed for a novice. This in addition to redrawing according to his instructions. While LBSC assumes you would not want an axle pump in gauge 1, you could no doubt use a scaled version of the 3 1/2 gauge pump with the slip eccentrics. If you were to use the scaled version of the Walschaerts valve gear there would be plenty of room for the axle pump. I haven't investigated just scaling down his Stephenson valve gear and long barrel axle pump. It might be too tight. The advantage of reworking Virginia according to LBSC's instructions would be a proven, powerful design. I just noticed that my copy (2 years old) of the Sulpher Springs catalogue lists 1:32 scale 14 spoke castings suitable for the drivers. The 8 spoke castings are slightly too large for the pilot truck, unfortunately. However, if you don't want spoked truck wheels, (and plenty of Americans didn't have them) you can easily hack from the solid in this size. The catalogue also lists a Dot cylinder casting that would work perfectly. Victor Lacy - Original Message - From: steve boylan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:22 AM Subject: Re: American Project Okay, time for me to chime in with my plugged nickle's worth. Sorry it took me so long, but the first couple weeks of October were pretty hectic. I'm just now making my way back to the subject of a 1:32 scale project based on the 4-4-0 American locomotive ... ... which I think would be a great project, and it's an idea I've been toying with for a while. I had been collecting some general prototype information over the summer, and sketching out ideas about what a workable model would look like. The conversation on this subject over the last couple of weeks has finally pushed me into doing something about it! So I've done what any self-respecting 21st century modeller would do: started a Web site. I see the domain registration hit the DNS server this morning, so you can now view the site at: http://www.440american.org T'ain't much there yet, but it's a start. I'm hoping other folks will be willing to join in and contribute knowledge, ideas, and maybe even a drawing or two as time goes on. Let the kibbitzing begin! - - Steve
Re: American project?
There were many (good looking) straight boilered 4-4-0s in the 1840-1880 era. Check out a scan of Phantom from the book A History of THE AMERICAN LOCOMOTIVE Its Development:1830-1880 By John H. White, Jr. Dover Publications, Inc. New York ISBN 0-486-23818-0 www.panyo.com/misc/Phantom.htm Mike
RE: American project?
Mike, Thanks, for the link. Ken -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Martin Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:16 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: American project? There were many (good looking) straight boilered 4-4-0s in the 1840-1880 era. Check out a scan of Phantom from the book A History of THE AMERICAN LOCOMOTIVE Its Development:1830-1880 By John H. White, Jr. Dover Publications, Inc. New York ISBN 0-486-23818-0 www.panyo.com/misc/Phantom.htm Mike
Re: American Project
In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 2:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Regarding Pete's suggestion: because 1:20.3 is pretty well supported right now, there's not nearly as much need to develop something else in that scale. I thought I was actually addrssing the issue of what such a 'project' could pull - there aren't many 1/32nd freight cars or coaches available. And there are not many 1:20.3 steam engines. Acccucraft only make 3 or 4 types (ccounting Ruby variants as 1!) But there are lots of cars and coaches of different eras available to make up a train. However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. Pete
RE: American Project
With respect to Pete's comments about 1:20 loco availability, I would welcome a 4-4-0 project that had the potential to be converted to 1:20 narrow gauge. I have eyed Aster's CS 2-6-0 thinking that it would make a nice little 1:20 loco conversion because the wheels, cylinders, valves, and valve gear are all there, but the Aster price is a bit too much for me to spend for a project starting point. If the American Project were to offer a tested functional design, basic machining and fabrication guidelines, and a source for the unique parts and castings, then I would definitely be interested. Steve
Re: American Project
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:56 PM Subject: Re: American Project In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 2:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. -Yes, like chopping out a lot of the wheel spokes !!! Art Walker
Re: American Project
However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. This brings up an interesting possibility. Converting standard gauge locomotives to narrow gauge (or vice versa) was accomplished by moving the wheels from outside to inside the frames (or vice versa). Since you have to remove the wheels and replace the axles, you would want to replace the wheels with some of the proper type (no. of spokes, no crankpin boss, etc), thus answering Art's concern. Now, we're still talking about a 4-4-0 type, right? There were very few outside-frame 4-4-0s made, but they're very interesting locos. The 30 gauge E. de F. Oeste de Minas in southeastern Brasil, now a preserved line, still has a couple from Baldwin in operating condition. They're lovely little kettles, and would be extraordinarily charming as scale steamers. They also have outside-frame 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, any of which I would love to have in small- scale live steam. But I have noticed that some people don't care for exotic prototypes, even if built in Philadelphia using US practices. So, you may not find the notion of an outside-frame 4-4-0 appealing, in which case I think this idea is not going to be very productive. You can't just bang the wheels closer together on the axles -- there are frames and valve gear in between which will hamper that operation. So, back to the original topic: what are the impediments to doing a standard gauge, project type 4-4-0? Just the willingness to undertake it, I would say. The G1MRA Project Book should give most of the general construction methods, and it would be up to you to modify them to suit the prototype. Not a screw-together kit, but doable. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
RE: American Project
Vance, and all Thanks for the interesting information! My intention, and the origin of this thread, was to develop a project, Dee type book for an American prototype 4-4-0 (American) in 1/32 scale. (What do they call a 4-4-0 in Britain?) I don't see any reason that there couldn't be an option for a 1:20 or 1:19 trim (cab, pilot, etc.). I seem to recall seeing a 4-4-0 running on the Cumbres Toltec somewhere on the web. It looked for all practical purposes like any other 4-4-0. Any one have any info? It depend on how big a project this becomes on whether I decide to add these options (or do anything at all). I was thinking it would be nice, since I am building the locomotive for myself and since I am designing it in CAD (3d solids) before I do any chip making, that it would be only a bit more work, and a big benefit to those like myself, who really like the Dee, but would prefer an more local prototype, to put the instructions and drawings into a book. My intention is to have as few manufactured parts as needed to keep in the spirit of the Dee/Project books. So far wheel castings will be the only parts that are not currently available in the size/style that is needed. Tender trucks and other small detail castings appear to be available through the current trade. Thanks to all for the wonderful discussion and suggestions, so far. Ken -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of VR Bass Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:07 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: American Project However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. This brings up an interesting possibility. Converting standard gauge locomotives to narrow gauge (or vice versa) was accomplished by moving the wheels from outside to inside the frames (or vice versa). Since you have to remove the wheels and replace the axles, you would want to replace the wheels with some of the proper type (no. of spokes, no crankpin boss, etc), thus answering Art's concern. Now, we're still talking about a 4-4-0 type, right? There were very few outside-frame 4-4-0s made, but they're very interesting locos. The 30 gauge E. de F. Oeste de Minas in southeastern Brasil, now a preserved line, still has a couple from Baldwin in operating condition. They're lovely little kettles, and would be extraordinarily charming as scale steamers. They also have outside-frame 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, any of which I would love to have in small- scale live steam. But I have noticed that some people don't care for exotic prototypes, even if built in Philadelphia using US practices. So, you may not find the notion of an outside-frame 4-4-0 appealing, in which case I think this idea is not going to be very productive. You can't just bang the wheels closer together on the axles -- there are frames and valve gear in between which will hamper that operation. So, back to the original topic: what are the impediments to doing a standard gauge, project type 4-4-0? Just the willingness to undertake it, I would say. The G1MRA Project Book should give most of the general construction methods, and it would be up to you to modify them to suit the prototype. Not a screw-together kit, but doable. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: American Project
Hi There are multipals of 4-4-0 s in britain ( ie ) the Dee as per Dicks ;;; the LMS and midland railway produced two ( ie ) the 2P and the 4 P these # s represented the duty they were produced , I am presently producing a MR Compound 4-4-0 but with a single cylinder and a 3 to 1 gear drive wich produces 6 power strokes per rev ;;; the loco itself is finished but a tender is now underway . Graham S, - Original Message - From: XXYZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: RE: American Project Vance, and all Thanks for the interesting information! My intention, and the origin of this thread, was to develop a project, Dee type book for an American prototype 4-4-0 (American) in 1/32 scale. (What do they call a 4-4-0 in Britain?) I don't see any reason that there couldn't be an option for a 1:20 or 1:19 trim (cab, pilot, etc.). I seem to recall seeing a 4-4-0 running on the Cumbres Toltec somewhere on the web. It looked for all practical purposes like any other 4-4-0. Any one have any info? It depend on how big a project this becomes on whether I decide to add these options (or do anything at all). I was thinking it would be nice, since I am building the locomotive for myself and since I am designing it in CAD (3d solids) before I do any chip making, that it would be only a bit more work, and a big benefit to those like myself, who really like the Dee, but would prefer an more local prototype, to put the instructions and drawings into a book. My intention is to have as few manufactured parts as needed to keep in the spirit of the Dee/Project books. So far wheel castings will be the only parts that are not currently available in the size/style that is needed. Tender trucks and other small detail castings appear to be available through the current trade. Thanks to all for the wonderful discussion and suggestions, so far. Ken -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of VR Bass Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:07 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: American Project However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. This brings up an interesting possibility. Converting standard gauge locomotives to narrow gauge (or vice versa) was accomplished by moving the wheels from outside to inside the frames (or vice versa). Since you have to remove the wheels and replace the axles, you would want to replace the wheels with some of the proper type (no. of spokes, no crankpin boss, etc), thus answering Art's concern. Now, we're still talking about a 4-4-0 type, right? There were very few outside-frame 4-4-0s made, but they're very interesting locos. The 30 gauge E. de F. Oeste de Minas in southeastern Brasil, now a preserved line, still has a couple from Baldwin in operating condition. They're lovely little kettles, and would be extraordinarily charming as scale steamers. They also have outside-frame 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, any of which I would love to have in small- scale live steam. But I have noticed that some people don't care for exotic prototypes, even if built in Philadelphia using US practices. So, you may not find the notion of an outside-frame 4-4-0 appealing, in which case I think this idea is not going to be very productive. You can't just bang the wheels closer together on the axles -- there are frames and valve gear in between which will hamper that operation. So, back to the original topic: what are the impediments to doing a standard gauge, project type 4-4-0? Just the willingness to undertake it, I would say. The G1MRA Project Book should give most of the general construction methods, and it would be up to you to modify them to suit the prototype. Not a screw-together kit, but doable. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: American project?
Hi All. Aster did this in their ealy days with the RENO. A very basic Early American 4-4-0 . This used an apparent Waggon Top boiler - large over the firebox with a short tapered section to a smaller main barrel and smoke box. They used an outer cosmetic shell for this with a parallel inner boiler proper, They used a Smithies arrangement as they did on many of their early locos, - the Smithies is not the best way to go. As far as scale gooes it was quoted as 1:32, or 1:30, or 1:24, and 1:23, depending which piece of Aster paper you were reading!trying to establish the scale by measuring the model and comparing with prototype drawings didn't help, as you could get answers of all of the above scales, and several more as well, depending which dimension you scaled from - in fact they'd done an LGB, and altered dimensions at will. It also used plate frames. That said, it ran very well indeed, pulled well, looked the part, and had a very impressive Chuff. I owned one for some years, but eventually sold it to a gentleman in Spain; after insulating the wheels for 2 rail electric compatibility. Jim Curries suggestion re laser cut bar frames is a good one - they are not expensive provided they are made in reasonable quantity at a time. Costing on these is a one off programming charge, + a flat setup charge, and then + a small material + cutting time charge for each.So a one off costs a lot, but if you make a couple of dozen sets then the small per item costs and a fraction of the shared setup and programming costs makes them very cheap.I certainly would not care to make them for the cost.By the way platework - cab, spectacle plate. running boards, pilot beams etc. can be done the same way.I've produced a number of sets of frames tender frames and all the platework for Fliyng Scotsman in 1:32 that way. An alternative would be to get them done on a CNC machining centre, - exactly the same applies as above, but note that doing them CNC means brass could be used - the CO2 laser s in normal use will not cut aluminium or brass, only ferrous metals. Generally a good idea. Jim Gregg. At 04:53 PM 9/29/02 -0400, you wrote: Ken: Funny you should ask. There is a 1:32 American under development as we speak. It'll be along the model engineering lines of a Project or Dee. I've been asked to design a set of laser cut bar frames for it. My understanding is complete drawings/instructions should be printed up by the end of the year with a basic kit of supplies available. Jim Curry
Re: American Project
In a message dated Mon, 30 Sep 2002 2:01:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: US difficulties revolve mainly round how to make plausible bar frames - a task which is more difficult for the modeller than for the prototype. Another difficulty is the near total abscence of affordable 1/32 stock. Most stuff on the market seems to be of 1/29 or some other bastard scale. As a Brit who switched to US practice, can I strongly suggest making a model of a narrow gauge prototype? There is lots of support for 1:20.3 scale over here (3 foot gauge prototypes modelled on gauge 1 track.) I don't really see the point of 1/32nd, when there are few models of US prototypes, and it's not as if you are going to pull LMS Suburban coaches with a US 4-4-0. Accucraft and it's subsiduary, American Model Supply, make ready-to-run models of Colorado locos and rolling stock. [ http://www.accucraft.com/pg-news.htm ]. Bachmann is dabbling in it, and there are many specialist kit manufacturers. Here's Rog's RGS East layout in MD, where I run my Roundhouse Argyll and my Accucraft C-16 live steamers (1:19th and 1:20.3 respectively.) http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9900 On the subject of open 'bar' frames - what happened to brass etching? I had a cute little 0-6-0 in O scale that had a brass chassis with brass bearings and full compensation. Even if one can't etch a thick brass strip, a thin overlay could be made to fit outside a minimalist solid chassis. Just a thought... Pete
Re: American Project
I don't really see the point of 1/32nd, when there are few models of US prototypes, HELLOO :) There are a dearth of models available for the mainline guys. If someone wants to design a mainline engine God bless him! Fact is, a 2-6-0 or similar size 1:32 bar frame outline(Keith), is essentially the same size for narrow gauge models. The basic model engineering design package, once executed for US mainline engines, will easily adapt wide variety of US engines, mainline and narrow gauge. We're not talking about Aster's here, we're talking about a design like the Project which will be adaptable to chip makers on this side of the pond. Jim
Re: American project?
Hi Alison Jim. Regarding bar frames ;;; I have made early american loco's with round bar frames wich is very simple all that is needed is the axleboxes drilled top and bottom to take the round bar and walla there is your frame This is not noticable from a very short distance from the engine . Graham S - Original Message - From: Alison Jim Gregg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 6:09 AM Subject: Re: American project? Hi All. Aster did this in their ealy days with the RENO. A very basic Early American 4-4-0 . This used an apparent Waggon Top boiler - large over the firebox with a short tapered section to a smaller main barrel and smoke box. They used an outer cosmetic shell for this with a parallel inner boiler proper, They used a Smithies arrangement as they did on many of their early locos, - the Smithies is not the best way to go. As far as scale gooes it was quoted as 1:32, or 1:30, or 1:24, and 1:23, depending which piece of Aster paper you were reading!trying to establish the scale by measuring the model and comparing with prototype drawings didn't help, as you could get answers of all of the above scales, and several more as well, depending which dimension you scaled from - in fact they'd done an LGB, and altered dimensions at will. It also used plate frames. That said, it ran very well indeed, pulled well, looked the part, and had a very impressive Chuff. I owned one for some years, but eventually sold it to a gentleman in Spain; after insulating the wheels for 2 rail electric compatibility. Jim Curries suggestion re laser cut bar frames is a good one - they are not expensive provided they are made in reasonable quantity at a time. Costing on these is a one off programming charge, + a flat setup charge, and then + a small material + cutting time charge for each.So a one off costs a lot, but if you make a couple of dozen sets then the small per item costs and a fraction of the shared setup and programming costs makes them very cheap.I certainly would not care to make them for the cost.By the way platework - cab, spectacle plate. running boards, pilot beams etc. can be done the same way.I've produced a number of sets of frames tender frames and all the platework for Fliyng Scotsman in 1:32 that way. An alternative would be to get them done on a CNC machining centre, - exactly the same applies as above, but note that doing them CNC means brass could be used - the CO2 laser s in normal use will not cut aluminium or brass, only ferrous metals. Generally a good idea. Jim Gregg. At 04:53 PM 9/29/02 -0400, you wrote: Ken: Funny you should ask. There is a 1:32 American under development as we speak. It'll be along the model engineering lines of a Project or Dee. I've been asked to design a set of laser cut bar frames for it. My understanding is complete drawings/instructions should be printed up by the end of the year with a basic kit of supplies available. Jim Curry
Re: American project?
I'd just like to put a vote in for 1:32 or at worst 1:29th scale. If I want a NG engine of the American type there are plenty available. :] Trot, the picky, fox... /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
RE: American Project
Jim, With respect to your statement the basic model engineering design package, once executed for US mainline engines, will easily adapt wide variety of US engines, mainline and narrow gauge: would it be possible to get a few hints regarding the probable dimensions of proposed 4-4-0? Like loco length and driving wheel diameter? Then many of us can start dreaming up possible adaptations in our favorite scales/gauges. However it won't stop the questions about the project, maybe just slow down the flow, now that the cat's out of the bag. Regards, Steve
Re: American Project
Steve: Not having seen it, I can't speak to the model. I would anticipate the developers to spread the word later this fall. Jim
RE: American Project
Thanks, Jim. I will be patient. Steve -Original Message- From: James Curry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 7:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: American Project Steve: Not having seen it, I can't speak to the model. I would anticipate the developers to spread the word later this fall. Jim
Re: American project?
http://gold.mylargescale.com/BobStarr\Pictures\V1.jpg bob: you got your slashes all turned around; here's the correct url: http://gold.mylargescale.com/BobStarr/Pictures/V1.jpg \dmc ps: nice looking sculpture. -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ^^^
Re: American project?
Dave, HnI just did as a copy and paste from the page. I wonder what happened? Bob
Re: American Project
On the subject of open 'bar' frames - what happened to brass etching? You can't find anyone in the US to do it, though there are plenty of people in the UK who can and will do it for you. Bar frames are really not that complicated, however. Kevin Strong showed me how easy it was to convert Roundhouse plate frames to bar frames by drilling four holes at the corners of a frame opening and then cutting the rest out with a Dremel cutoff wheel. I did this on my RH frame without disassembling it. If you're talking about mass production (whatever that means in this tiny niche market), then you open up the possibility of laser cutting, water-jet cutting, or CNC milling. These are pretty inexpensive, and the costs get better the more you produce, since the setup costs usually are about twice the cost of one set of frames. Cut ten sets and 20% of the total cost is setup. Cut 100 sets and the setup is only 2% of the total. I have done this on my (still unfinished) C-25 and Soni Honegger's C-21; Jim Curry has done this with a couple of different Maine narrow gauge designs. There's no magic to it, and the skills required are all around us. Regarding Pete's suggestion: because 1:20.3 is pretty well supported right now, there's not nearly as much need to develop something else in that scale. Accucraft's offerings trade the money earned by your relatively high-valued labor for their low-valued Chinese labor, which means that it's hardly worth doing yourself. (If you're between jobs, it's a good economic decision to build one yourself, however. :-) On the other hand, 1:32 is very poorly supported, and the only available live steamers are shockingly expensive, though quite beautiful. A lower-cost, DIY standard gauge project would probably find some enthustiastic takers. But it's also possible that the high cost of Aster locos has already driven all the potential builders into narrow gauge, so that no one who's interested in 1:32 will bother to build one themselves. Interesting marketing research problem regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: American Project
On the other hand, 1:32 is very poorly supported, and the only available live steamers are shockingly expensive, though quite beautiful. A lower-cost, DIY standard gauge project would probably find some enthustiastic takers. But it's also possible that the high cost of Aster locos has already driven all the potential builders into narrow gauge, so that no one who's interested in 1:32 will bother to build one themselves. Interesting marketing research problem regards, -vance- Vance and group, While the easy availability of Narrow gauge equipment, and high priced Aster engines means ther isn't much of a market now, that shouldn't mean the potential market doesn't exist! I am a rather ecclectic collector of miniature railroad equipment, and am not bound to any one scale, particularly when they run on the same track! (i.e. 45mm) Prices and being on a retirement income have precluded collecting Live Steam aster NYC Hudsons and PRR K-4's, but..and a big but, if there were standard gauge prototypes available as a Project type deal, that is to say, a kit, or even unmachined castings, for an American prototype, I'd be all over it in a minute! Sure, having the Twentieth Century Limited with a huge train of heavyweights would be nice. But, just as appealing as the Coloradr Narrow gauges, are the Standard Gauge shortlines that fed the big roads a lot of their business! I think there would be just as big of a market for a 1/32 scale (3/8 = 1') Baldwin Maryland Pennsylvania Ten Wheeler, or a Sierra RR 2-8-0 pulling a string of shorter wooden coaches as that would not be too different in size or cost to some of the narrow gauge sets available today! Not every railroad was a Class 1 high speed mainline! And evn the big fellows like the PRR and NYC had many small branch lines served with smaller cheaper power, using old time wooden cars that have the same nostalgic appeal as the Narrow gauge lines. There should be room for evrey taste, big and small. And having the advanatge of more than one scale being able to run on the same track, opens a whole world of possibilities.for fun. Which, after all, is what it's all about. Keith Taylor
Re: American project?
Well Ken, Perhaps you don't think this would count, but I am building a sort of American ' Project'. I bought a 'Project' boiler from a guy some 20ys ago it was looking for a home 'till last year. Anyway it is now destined for a little US Mogul which with a bit of luck might be ready for Diamondhead. That's the intention anyway. It will use Roundhouse cylinders which are OK sizewise for US 1/32 you might be surprised to hear, will be meths fired. However there is no real reason you could not use a Roundhouse type single flue boiler particularly with an 'O'Connorised' radiant burner to minimise gas consumption. As Aster others have found out, a gas tank in the tender high gas consumption results in cooling problems. Don't agree with your statement about 'Brits having it easy'. There is nothing 'easy' about inside cylinders valve gear whether in model or 'real' form. Why do you think the whole world went over to the US way of doing - provided they were not bugged with track clearance problems? To the untutored eye, inside slip eccentics with outside cylinders is a pretty close approximation of Stephenson RH has shown how easy it is to fake a plausible Walshaerts gear. You point this out correctly for the early US 4-4-0s but a snag is that these gals had pretty small diameter boilers. US difficulties revolve mainly round how to make plausible bar frames - a task which is more difficult for the modeller than for the prototype. Another difficulty is the near total abscence of affordable 1/32 stock. Most stuff on the market seems to be of 1/29 or some other bastard scale. Art Walker, Guildford, England. - Original Message - From: XXYZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 1:46 AM Subject: American project? Hi all, I wondder if everyone is out steaming? There has been little mail today. So here is a little conversation stimulation. I was wondering, what kind of interest would there be in an American 1/32 scale prototype project locomotive. Obviously, the brits have it a bit easier with their inside cylinder locomotives (Dee, Project) than we do with outside cylinders and valve gear. But I think that the proper choice of locomotive would make things easier. Just looking at a few photos, it looks like many early 1900's 4-4-0 locos have Stephenson valve gear inside of the frames. With only the drive rods outside I think it would be possible be fudge the use of a slip eccentric valve gear. I think another draw to the 4-4-0 model would be that it culd be spiffed up with different stacks, pilots (cowcatchers, per earlier discussions), domes, etc, and still be prototypical as there were lots of veriations with these locos. Any other ideas? Ken Vogel
RE: American project?
Thanks Art, Sounds like you have a nice project going of your own. Let me clarify a bit about the inside cylinders. I think that it's much easier from an model engineering perspective to hide a working, not-to-scale, valve gear mechanism, instead of having to reproduce the look and function of a scale mechanism in a place for all the world to see. The mechanisms in the Project and Dee are really reduced to their simplest form as far as machining and construction is concerned. The locos still look great from the outside and it doesn't matter if a non-sale valve gear is hidden underneath. As far as the prototype is concerned, inside cylinders and crank axles are terrible from a strength and maintenance standpoint, but I think it's acceptable engineering for a beginner's model. I still need to do some measurements to verify this, but it looks like to boiler size would be roughly equivalent to that of the Dee. I think the later era (late 1800's) locos had larger boilers that earlier ones. And the later locos still have the flashy trim stacks. I think the larger issue is of the shape of the boiler. Nearly all of the locos that I have photos of have a stepped boiler (larger around the firebox). I think that this would present difficulty to beginning builders. I have found one photo of a straight boilered 4-4-0. I will see if the stepped boiler really presents construction issues when I build the prototype and make the decision on boiler construction then. Maybe there could options for boulder construction as well. The bar frame is another area I haven't delved into yet, I think that the project as a whole would be a bit more difficult that that of the project or the Dee but I am still trying to gear it toward the beginner or advanced beginner model engineer. The scope of tools needed will be a bit larger as well. Right now I don't think that this loco would be able to be built without the use of a mill (a mill-drill or the sort would be about right) so that may be another problem. I am still wrestling with the scale issue. I really hate to support the bastard scales. Mind you, I have no problem with LGB or the ilk, as I consider their products to be in the toy category (in my opinion, that how they market their products). However I think that the 1:29 thing is regrettable. Although, I understand why they did it from a commercial standpoint. I probably just re-opened a really big can-of-worms! I may cave and resize to the 1:29 scale just because rolling stock is easily avalable. Maybe one of the UK's car builders will introduce a set of American proto rolling stock. Thanks for your input Ken Lafayette, CO Perhaps you don't think this would count, but I am building a sort of American ' Project'. snip Don't agree with your statement about 'Brits having it easy'. There is nothing 'easy' about inside cylinders valve gear whether in model or 'real' form. Why do you think the whole world went over to the US way of doing - provided they were not bugged with track clearance problems? To the untutored eye, inside slip eccentics with outside cylinders is a pretty close approximation of Stephenson RH has shown how easy it is to fake a plausible Walshaerts gear. You point this out correctly for the early US 4-4-0s but a snag is that these gals had pretty small diameter boilers. US difficulties revolve mainly round how to make plausible bar frames - a task which is more difficult for the modeller than for the prototype. Another difficulty is the near total abscence of affordable 1/32 stock. Most stuff on the market seems to be of 1/29 or some other bastard scale. Art Walker, Guildford, England. - Original Message - From: XXYZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 1:46 AM Subject: American project? Hi all, I wondder if everyone is out steaming? There has been little mail today. So here is a little conversation stimulation. I was wondering, what kind of interest would there be in an American 1/32 scale prototype project locomotive. Obviously, the brits have it a bit easier with their inside cylinder locomotives (Dee, Project) than we do with outside cylinders and valve gear. But I think that the proper choice of locomotive would make things easier. Just looking at a few photos, it looks like many early 1900's 4-4-0 locos have Stephenson valve gear inside of the frames. With only the drive rods outside I think it would be possible be fudge the use of a slip eccentric valve gear. I think another draw to the 4-4-0 model would be that it culd be spiffed up with different stacks, pilots (cowcatchers, per earlier discussions), domes, etc, and still be prototypical as there were lots of veriations with these locos. Any other ideas? Ken Vogel
Re: American project?
I have often toyed with the idea of reducing LBSC's Virginian to our scale. In fact, in his book, he even makes mention of it. One could consider using Roundhouse cylinders with it and his text does offer a straight boiler. In fact, many years ago, I did a welded steel sculpture of a train robbery using a reduced version of the Virginian and you can see a picture of it at: http://gold.mylargescale.com/BobStarr\Pictures\V1.jpg Bob
Re: American project?
Ken: Funny you should ask. There is a 1:32 American under development as we speak. It'll be along the model engineering lines of a Project or Dee. I've been asked to design a set of laser cut bar frames for it. My understanding is complete drawings/instructions should be printed up by the end of the year with a basic kit of supplies available. Jim Curry
Re: American project?
At 04:53 PM 9/29/02 -0400, James Curry wrote: Funny you should ask. There is a 1:32 American under development as we speak. It'll be along the model engineering lines of a Project or Dee. Is that the 0-6-0 being done by David and (?) Warren? I wasn't sure I should say anything. I was asked to proof-build one but I haven't seen any drawings yet. John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.istar.ca/~johnk Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it.
Re: American project?
This is great news. Art Walker - Original Message - From: James Curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: Re: American project? Ken: Funny you should ask. There is a 1:32 American under development as we speak. It'll be along the model engineering lines of a Project or Dee. I've been asked to design a set of laser cut bar frames for it. My understanding is complete drawings/instructions should be printed up by the end of the year with a basic kit of supplies available. Jim Curry
Re: American project?
- Original Message - From: James Curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 4:53 PM Subject: Re: American project? I've been asked to design a set of laser cut bar frames for it. Jim Curry Jim, Why do folks, particularly the Brits, always refer to American frames as bar frames? They aren't for the most part, and haven't been since the 1860's Most American engines had plate frames! It's just that ther plates were very much thicker than those used in Europe, for the rougher service entailed here. In fact, the most modern American frames were not even plate frames, they were a single cast engine bed! Bar frames were used, before we had the facilities to cut out slabs of steel the length of the engine at full height and thickness. So, the early solution was to assemble the frames from bars and castings or forgings to space the top bar from the bottom. But not long after the Civil War, the American foundries, and forges began making frames of exactly the same type as the British Plate frames, the only difference being those plates were three and four inches thick! This is certainly not of any real importance, it's just always puzzled me! Keith Taylor
Re: American project?
I think I would be a wonderfull idea in 1/24 or 1/22.5 Later Michael Florida USA Iron Nut - Original Message - From: XXYZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:46 PM Subject: American project? Hi all, I wondder if everyone is out steaming? There has been little mail today. So here is a little conversation stimulation. I was wondering, what kind of interest would there be in an American 1/32 scale prototype project locomotive. Obviously, the brits have it a bit easier with their inside cylinder locomotives (Dee, Project) than we do with outside cylinders and valve gear. But I think that the proper choice of locomotive would make things easier. Just looking at a few photos, it looks like many early 1900's 4-4-0 locos have Stephenson valve gear inside of the frames. With only the drive rods outside I think it would be possible be fudge the use of a slip eccentric valve gear. I think another draw to the 4-4-0 model would be that it culd be spiffed up with different stacks, pilots (cowcatchers, per earlier discussions), domes, etc, and still be prototypical as there were lots of veriations with these locos. Any other ideas? Ken Vogel
