Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
the pressure within. To me this is the reason not to use soft solder, once it starts to soften and gives a little the drop of pressure coupled with the resulting increase in the amount of steam can cause an explosion even at a lower pressure. For this reason I believe water level is a much more import than pressure, assuming a well working relief valve. Don't get me wrong, pressure is important, and I don't think I'd want to run with a pressure gauge, but watching the sight gauge is much more import than watching the pressure gauge. Ray Baughman From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/06 Mon PM 12:20:44 EDT To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. At 05:57 PM 10/5/03 -0400, you wrote: On the other hand, a well designed silver soldered boiler will build up a very high pressure (probably more than 10 times operating pressure). In order for a theory to hold water all conditions, components, and influences on a system must be considered in proper proportion. I agree the above scenario could happen, in fact possibly as much as 14 x WP, if there was a constant and unlimited source of heat, but what's being ignored is that this condition could not occur with a burner the size of a fat pencil. There are simply not enough BTUs available to the system. If I were to apply a 1 oxy/acetylene rose tip (150,000+BTU/min) to a Ga1 boiler boiler of course I should expect trouble, but in actual typical operation that's not going to occur. The reason for building silver soldered boilers the way they have been, and should continue to be, is so that even a worst case scenario, where the boiler is dry and the burner is still on, a rather large margin of safety remains. I fail to see what some people in the Ga1 live steam hobby find so difficult and/or objectionable about that. When this eventually leads to failure, the steam/water escapes much more violently with parts being torn off and hurling through the air. Unsubstantiated rhetoric like this can do a great deal of harm if read and repeated by or to the wrong person. Rather than to conjur up disasters based upon incomplete and unrealistic physical scenarios, or constructing far-fetched justifications for doing it on the quick and cheap or indictments of doing it properly, I think the hobby would be much better served if that same energy were used to learn and promote good boiler building pratices. I continue to be amazed how many people still fail to undersand that there is a direct connection between certain time-proven boiler building practices and safety, meaning that if good practices are used there is no further need for discussions or conjecture about what might happen in the event of a boil-dry. We would, and do, know what would happen. As for the actual dangers, historically then overwhelming majority of steam and boiler-related injuries are from scalds and burns and it's no different for us. The ultimate solution could be a well designed copper boiler with one or two soft soldered melting plugs as last chance safety valves. These are called fusible plugs and are being used by some folks in large scales but there is disagreement as to their advantages, if any, and whether they should be made mandatory. But Ga1 boilers are a different animal and it's my opinion that the problems of using a fusible plug in a typical Ga1 boiler outweigh any benefits. Ga1 boilers are a different animal because they are much less stable in operation than large scale boilers and fusible plugs rely to a great extent upon some degree of stability to do their job when it's called for and NOT do their job if it's not. By stable I mean operating temperatures and pressures are lower than larger scales but fluctuate much more widely than in larger scales, water levels fluctuate much more widely, and only a very small percentage of locomotives have the firebox configuration required for a fusible plug, most don't have a firebox in the usual sense at all. Fusible plugs rely upon plate temperature and water level to operate. Also most Ga1 locos have fires which can be extinguished instantly in the event of low water, which is one important job done by a fusible plug, but in the event of low water nothing of much danger happens to a properly built Ga1 boiler anyway. Regards, Harry
Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
I have modified the tube in my Ruby such that it does not spit out the stack anymore. I shortened and pinched the origional tube then filed a hole just below stack level. This way the spray goes in the smokebox and falls down onto the track but most of the steam still goes out the stack. What little goes down below just adds to the effect of the locomotive. ; ] Trot, the modifyable, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ There is a | \_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative. From: JR May [EMAIL PROTECTED] A few weeks ago at Pine Creek we had our Railroaders Weekend/Open House and I set up some track for Ruby to run on in front of our machine shop. Actually used the tender deck for our 1914 Porter which was an ideal height. _ Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
Henner suggested:- Let us assume, for some reason the safety valve fails: Any comments ? The answer is make sure it fails safe. My solution is to fit the safety valve with a test pin (normally known as the valve stem) and lift it to make sure the ball is free whilst raising steam. I also advise owners of my engines to do this with the words:- A wise engineer will check the safety valve in this way each time the locomotive is steamed from cold. Mike Chaney
Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
I am surprised that Ruby comes with only a safety valve and no steam gauge. Keeping an eye on the steam gauge would be the ideal way of ensuring you do not have a problem. That gives the operator at least two ways of knowing what is going on with his boiler. - Original Message - From: Mike Chaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. Henner suggested:- Let us assume, for some reason the safety valve fails: Any comments ? The answer is make sure it fails safe. My solution is to fit the safety valve with a test pin (normally known as the valve stem) and lift it to make sure the ball is free whilst raising steam. I also advise owners of my engines to do this with the words:- A wise engineer will check the safety valve in this way each time the locomotive is steamed from cold. Mike Chaney
Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
At 06:25 AM 10/6/03 -0400, you wrote: I am surprised that Ruby comes with only a safety valve and no steam gauge. JR, The reason is cost/price. The Ruby was intended to be a budget locomotive and an additional safety and gauge would add at 20% to the price. Single safeties are common, and the gauge is the perfect aftermarket item, and there are a lot of potential buyers who would be put off by the extra 20% for what they might perceive as not being a substantial additional value. Regards, Harry
Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
I am surprised that Ruby comes with only a safety valve and no steam gauge. Well, then you think of it in a certain way, it does have a steam gauge. The safety valve is a gauge, in that it tells you if your pressure is above or below a certain point. This is just like on your car (unless you own a performance auto), where the trouble lights are off if everything is below a certain point and only go on when a threshhold condition is passed. Most people don't care what their oil pressure is, as long as it's something the car's designers were happy with. On problem with the Ruby is that the safety valves have been found to vary widely in the pop-off point. They're pretty crude items, though, so getting a more sophisticated (and better calibrated) valve from a third party is probably a good idea. Mike Chaney mentioned testing the valve while raising steam, and this is impossible with the Accucraft valve. What is wanted is one with a stem that protrudes from the top, which you can grab with your pliers and tug on gently. This insures that it hasn't gotten stuck closed while the loco was sitting idle. And, of course, you can buy a gauge for the Ruby if you want. The deluxe model comes with it standard, but it's available as a retrofit from Accucraft. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
At 05:57 PM 10/5/03 -0400, you wrote: On the other hand, a well designed silver soldered boiler will build up a very high pressure (probably more than 10 times operating pressure). In order for a theory to hold water all conditions, components, and influences on a system must be considered in proper proportion. I agree the above scenario could happen, in fact possibly as much as 14 x WP, if there was a constant and unlimited source of heat, but what's being ignored is that this condition could not occur with a burner the size of a fat pencil. There are simply not enough BTUs available to the system. If I were to apply a 1 oxy/acetylene rose tip (150,000+BTU/min) to a Ga1 boiler boiler of course I should expect trouble, but in actual typical operation that's not going to occur. The reason for building silver soldered boilers the way they have been, and should continue to be, is so that even a worst case scenario, where the boiler is dry and the burner is still on, a rather large margin of safety remains. I fail to see what some people in the Ga1 live steam hobby find so difficult and/or objectionable about that. When this eventually leads to failure, the steam/water escapes much more violently with parts being torn off and hurling through the air. Unsubstantiated rhetoric like this can do a great deal of harm if read and repeated by or to the wrong person. Rather than to conjur up disasters based upon incomplete and unrealistic physical scenarios, or constructing far-fetched justifications for doing it on the quick and cheap or indictments of doing it properly, I think the hobby would be much better served if that same energy were used to learn and promote good boiler building pratices. I continue to be amazed how many people still fail to undersand that there is a direct connection between certain time-proven boiler building practices and safety, meaning that if good practices are used there is no further need for discussions or conjecture about what might happen in the event of a boil-dry. We would, and do, know what would happen. As for the actual dangers, historically then overwhelming majority of steam and boiler-related injuries are from scalds and burns and it's no different for us. The ultimate solution could be a well designed copper boiler with one or two soft soldered melting plugs as last chance safety valves. These are called fusible plugs and are being used by some folks in large scales but there is disagreement as to their advantages, if any, and whether they should be made mandatory. But Ga1 boilers are a different animal and it's my opinion that the problems of using a fusible plug in a typical Ga1 boiler outweigh any benefits. Ga1 boilers are a different animal because they are much less stable in operation than large scale boilers and fusible plugs rely to a great extent upon some degree of stability to do their job when it's called for and NOT do their job if it's not. By stable I mean operating temperatures and pressures are lower than larger scales but fluctuate much more widely than in larger scales, water levels fluctuate much more widely, and only a very small percentage of locomotives have the firebox configuration required for a fusible plug, most don't have a firebox in the usual sense at all. Fusible plugs rely upon plate temperature and water level to operate. Also most Ga1 locos have fires which can be extinguished instantly in the event of low water, which is one important job done by a fusible plug, but in the event of low water nothing of much danger happens to a properly built Ga1 boiler anyway. Regards, Harry
RE: Boilers, Burners etc.
At 09:21 PM 10/5/03 -0700, you wrote: I'm thinking that maybe our engines are to small too really have a catastrophic explosion. Chad I think smallness per se doesn't have so much to do with it as does the relative amount of energy available in the system but then I don't think I would agree unreservedly that a explosion wasn't possible. Over the years I've read of many instances where old style water boilers, heavy riveted steel, which operated at 4-5psi, did explode in the fullest sense of the word, some with loss of life, so I couldn't ever say it couldn't happen. I keep mentioning a system and by that I mean the matter capable of absorbing, storing, and giving off energy, the metal, steam, water, fuel, etc. and the influences that act upon those things. Not from this one neccessarily, but I get the uneasy feeling there is sometimes the underlying implication that since we've had no boiler failures or accidents so far that indicates that current pratices are too stringent and unnecessary and if we backed off that there would be no loss of safety and also would make things easier for a lot of people. I hope that's not the case. The reason for the record we enjoy is because we do things the way we do. Regards, Harry
Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
I've been following this thread, and I'd like to put my two cents in. Ive worked with full sized stationary steam engines, and thought I do not have my operators license as yet, Im planning to take the test some time in the not too distant future. First the fusible plugs primary job is not to extinguish the fire, but to notify the operator that a problem exist, and when it melts youll know it. When the fusible plug melts, the first responsibility of the operator is to extinguish the fire. To understand the dangers, one must first understand the why they occur. Two things to know about water and steam. For every on pound of pressure in the system, the temperature required to create steam rises one degree Fahrenheit. At just forty psi the temperature of the water and steam is well over 250 degree, and at 100 psi, its over 312 degree. The second thing to know is that one cubic inch of water will produce over 1400 cubic inches of steam. With this in mind, when water hits a dry heated crown plate, and instantly turns to steam, the pressure in the boiler raises drastically, the crown plate which is already too hot, is usually the first failed component, forcing the steam downward, as the failure occurs, pressure in the boiler drops drastically, as the pressure drops, the temperature required to turn water to steam decreases, causing the water in the boiler to turn to steam, again 1 cubic inch of water, produces over 1400 cubic inches of steam, and the boiler is history, and no longer setting where it was, this is the primary cause of steam explosions. The biggest danger with a boiler is not the steam in it but the water within. For this reason the fusible plug needs to be sized for the boiler, so as to allow steam to escape but to fast as to greatly effect the pressure within. To me this is the reason not to use soft solder, once it starts to soften and gives a little the drop of pressure coupled with the resulting increase in the amount of steam can cause an explosion even at a lower pressure. For this reason I believe water level is a much more import than pressure, assuming a well working relief valve. Dont get me wrong, pressure is important, and I dont think Id want to run with a pressure gauge, but watching the sight gauge is much more import than watching the pressure gauge. Ray Baughman From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/06 Mon PM 12:20:44 EDT To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. At 05:57 PM 10/5/03 -0400, you wrote: On the other hand, a well designed silver soldered boiler will build up a very high pressure (probably more than 10 times operating pressure). In order for a theory to hold water all conditions, components, and influences on a system must be considered in proper proportion. I agree the above scenario could happen, in fact possibly as much as 14 x WP, if there was a constant and unlimited source of heat, but what's being ignored is that this condition could not occur with a burner the size of a fat pencil. There are simply not enough BTUs available to the system. If I were to apply a 1 oxy/acetylene rose tip (150,000+BTU/min) to a Ga1 boiler boiler of course I should expect trouble, but in actual typical operation that's not going to occur. The reason for building silver soldered boilers the way they have been, and should continue to be, is so that even a worst case scenario, where the boiler is dry and the burner is still on, a rather large margin of safety remains. I fail to see what some people in the Ga1 live steam hobby find so difficult and/or objectionable about that. When this eventually leads to failure, the steam/water escapes much more violently with parts being torn off and hurling through the air. Unsubstantiated rhetoric like this can do a great deal of harm if read and repeated by or to the wrong person. Rather than to conjur up disasters based upon incomplete and unrealistic physical scenarios, or constructing far-fetched justifications for doing it on the quick and cheap or indictments of doing it properly, I think the hobby would be much better served if that same energy were used to learn and promote good boiler building pratices. I continue to be amazed how many people still fail to undersand that there is a direct connection between certain time-proven boiler building practices and safety, meaning that if good practices are used there is no further need for discussions or conjecture about what might happen in the event of a boil-dry. We would, and do, know what would happen. As for the actual dangers, historically then overwhelming majority of steam and boiler-related injuries are from scalds and burns and it's no different for us. The ultimate solution could be a well designed copper boiler with one or two soft soldered melting plugs as last chance safety valves
Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
A few weeks ago at Pine Creek we had our Railroaders Weekend/Open House and I set up some track for Ruby to run on in front of our machine shop. Actually used the tender deck for our 1914 Porter which was an ideal height. I was not so much concerned about boiler safety as I was about Ruby spitting hot water out the stack. We carried 2000 passengers that weekend and I'd guess half took the shop tour with many taking the time to check out Ruby pulling a seven car mixed train (with power to spare!). Lots and lots of kids. Before starting Ruby up, I'd have to clear the kids back a few feet to keep the hot water and oil spray off of them. At Diamond Head and other public runs, is there a concern about the hot water tossed from the stack getting on kids? In other words, its not so much a boiler failure (very rare) that is a concern to me but rather the normal water tossing nature of a steamer when its cold and first moving out (very common). Seems like the operator has to be very aware of who is near him/her before starting out. BTW, if anyone is interested I can email a picture of Ruby running that weekend. Off hand I forget how many laps it ran, but it was two solid days, 11Am to 5PM with time off only for fuel and water. The train was three LGB log cars (very nice cars too), two LGB 4 wheel flats with load, Bachman Ely-Thomas caboose, an 8 wheel coach of unknown make, and a LGB 8 wheel caboose. Interestingly, the LGB caboose had coupler problems and was not used much. The log cars were jewels and I would recommend them highly. The true link and pin works nicely and the long link I used between the first car and the engine gave me plenty of room for my big hands to reach in quickly and control the throttle on the fly. Seemed like the heavier the load the better the control was of the locomotive.It was a very short track and speed was critical. Oh well, enough rambling. I'll have a pressure gauge for next year for sure! And a bigger track. J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. I've been following this thread, and I'd like to put my two cents in. I've worked with full sized stationary steam engines, and thought I do not have my operator's license as yet, I'm planning to take the test some time in the not too distant future. First the fusible plugs primary job is not to extinguish the fire, but to notify the operator that a problem exist, and when it melts you'll know it. When the fusible plug melts, the first responsibility of the operator is to extinguish the fire. To understand the dangers, one must first understand the why they occur. Two things to know about water and steam. For every on pound of pressure in the system, the temperature required to create steam rises one degree Fahrenheit. At just forty psi the temperature of the water and steam is well over 250 degree, and at 100 psi, its over 312 degree. The second thing to know is that one cubic inch of water will produce over 1400 cubic inches of steam. With this in mind, when water hits a dry heated crown plate, and instantly turns to steam, the pressure in the boiler raises drastically, the crown plate which is already too hot, is usually the first failed component, forcing the steam downward, as the failure occurs, pressure in the boiler drops drastically, as the pressure drops, the temperature required to turn water to steam decreases, causing the water in the boiler to turn to steam, again 1 cubic inch of water, produces over 1400 cubic inches of steam, and the boiler is history, and no longer setting where it was, this is the primary cause of steam explosions. The biggest danger with a boiler is not the steam in it but the water within. For this reason the fusible plug needs to be sized for the boiler, so as to allow steam to escape but to fast as to greatly effect the pressure within. To me this is the reason not to use soft solder, once it starts to soften and gives a little the drop of pressure coupled with the resulting increase in the amount of steam can cause an explosion even at a lower pressure. For this reason I believe water level is a much more import than pressure, assuming a well working relief valve. Don't get me wrong, pressure is important, and I don't think I'd want to run with a pressure gauge, but watching the sight gauge is much more import than watching the pressure gauge. Ray Baughman From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/06 Mon PM 12:20:44 EDT To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. At 05:57 PM 10/5/03 -0400, you wrote: On the other hand, a well designed silver soldered boiler will build up a very high pressure (probably more than 10 times operating pressure). In order for a theory to hold water all conditions, components
Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
At 03:04 PM 10/6/03 -0400, you wrote: First the fusible plugs primary job is not to extinguish the fire, but to notify the operator that a problem exist Ray I agree when the boiler in question is full size, in which case the free area of a fusible plug is a tiny fraction of the area of the grate, however in typical large scale model practice the free area of a minumum sized effective fusible plug is relatively large compared to the grate area. In the event of a low-water emergency the net effect of a release is to extinguish the fire and rightly or wrongly those who use fusible plugs in model boilers rely on it to do that. Yes additional action, like dumping a coal fire, will probably be taken but all this happens in an instant and not all model locos have the ability to completely dump the fire on short notice so in model practice the fusible plug, when present, is thought of as a fire extinguisher rather than a warning device. Those without fusible plugs, and that would be the overwhelming majority of model boilers, and those with fusible plugs who want to run without an extended shut-down, rely upon a well maintained water gauge and feedwater pump or injector and paying attention to business to avoid trouble. There is a wide difference of opinion (in the U.S. anyway) amongst live steamers as to the benefits of fusible plugs in model boilers vs. their drawbacks. Some wouldn't be without them, some won't be bothered them. Neither camp can lay claim to be the lesser group of idiots so the friendly exchange of opposing ideology continues without a definite resolution. Personally I haven't used fusible plugs in a large scale boiler because those who I learned from didn't use them and/or it wasn't requested that I do so but that doesn't prevent me from seeing they do have their benefits. However I think the case for fusible plugs gets much stronger as scale, and boilers, gets larger and they are impractical in typical Ga1 boilers. Regards, Harry
RE: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
Most users install a exhaust diverter in the snoke stack. It is nothing more than a larger tube with the end pinched off and holes drilled about 1/2 down from the top. It has also been called a chuff tube. Keeps the loco cleaner and stops the spitting. Steve -Original Message- From: JR May [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 10:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. A few weeks ago at Pine Creek we had our Railroaders Weekend/Open House and I set up some track for Ruby to run on in front of our machine shop. Actually used the tender deck for our 1914 Porter which was an ideal height. I was not so much concerned about boiler safety as I was about Ruby spitting hot water out the stack. We carried 2000 passengers that weekend and I'd guess half took the shop tour with many taking the time to check out Ruby pulling a seven car mixed train (with power to spare!). Lots and lots of kids. Before starting Ruby up, I'd have to clear the kids back a few feet to keep the hot water and oil spray off of them. At Diamond Head and other public runs, is there a concern about the hot water tossed from the stack getting on kids? In other words, its not so much a boiler failure (very rare) that is a concern to me but rather the normal water tossing nature of a steamer when its cold and first moving out (very common). Seems like the operator has to be very aware of who is near him/her before starting out. BTW, if anyone is interested I can email a picture of Ruby running that weekend. Off hand I forget how many laps it ran, but it was two solid days, 11Am to 5PM with time off only for fuel and water. The train was three LGB log cars (very nice cars too), two LGB 4 wheel flats with load, Bachman Ely-Thomas caboose, an 8 wheel coach of unknown make, and a LGB 8 wheel caboose. Interestingly, the LGB caboose had coupler problems and was not used much. The log cars were jewels and I would recommend them highly. The true link and pin works nicely and the long link I used between the first car and the engine gave me plenty of room for my big hands to reach in quickly and control the throttle on the fly. Seemed like the heavier the load the better the control was of the locomotive.It was a very short track and speed was critical. Oh well, enough rambling. I'll have a pressure gauge for next year for sure! And a bigger track. J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. I've been following this thread, and I'd like to put my two cents in. I've worked with full sized stationary steam engines, and thought I do not have my operator's license as yet, I'm planning to take the test some time in the not too distant future. First the fusible plugs primary job is not to extinguish the fire, but to notify the operator that a problem exist, and when it melts you'll know it. When the fusible plug melts, the first responsibility of the operator is to extinguish the fire. To understand the dangers, one must first understand the why they occur. Two things to know about water and steam. For every on pound of pressure in the system, the temperature required to create steam rises one degree Fahrenheit. At just forty psi the temperature of the water and steam is well over 250 degree, and at 100 psi, its over 312 degree. The second thing to know is that one cubic inch of water will produce over 1400 cubic inches of steam. With this in mind, when water hits a dry heated crown plate, and instantly turns to steam, the pressure in the boiler raises drastically, the crown plate which is already too hot, is usually the first failed component, forcing the steam downward, as the failure occurs, pressure in the boiler drops drastically, as the pressure drops, the temperature required to turn water to steam decreases, causing the water in the boiler to turn to steam, again 1 cubic inch of water, produces over 1400 cubic inches of steam, and the boiler is history, and no longer setting where it was, this is the primary cause of steam explosions. The biggest danger with a boiler is not the steam in it but the water within. For this reason the fusible plug needs to be sized for the boiler, so as to allow steam to escape but to fast as to greatly effect the pressure within. To me this is the reason not to use soft solder, once it starts to soften and gives a little the drop of pressure coupled with the resulting increase in the amount of steam can cause an explosion even at a lower pressure. For this reason I believe water level is a much more import than pressure, assuming a well working relief valve. Don't get me wrong, pressure is important, and I don't think I'd want to run
RE: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
That's a great point, Steve, Thanks for bringing it up. It saves a lot of hot water and oil in the eye (and oil and crud on the Missuss's dress!) when firing most butane locos. However, it can't be done where a blower or exhaust nozzzle is required such as a coal or alky fired loco. Interestingly, with my two Merlin locos, (1985 and 1989) the exhaust tubes came as you suggested except that the tubes were slotted rather than drilled. I can't understand why all small loco builders don't do this. If done with imagination it can also produce a chuff sound. Every Ruby owner should do this. I like your mistype snoke box--that's at excellent term for our small locos! Geoff. Most users install a exhaust diverter in the snoke stack. It is nothing more than a larger tube with the end pinched off and holes drilled about 1/2 down from the top. It has also been called a chuff tube. Keeps the loco cleaner and stops the spitting. Steve
Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
Diverters come in several forms. The Berkley Cricket came supplied with a curved, small brass tube, flared just enough to fit over the blower (exhaust) tube. I made some larger ones from flexible BX? cable covers, curved to direct the oil and water to the side of the loco. Made a couple with different tapers to fit the differing smoke stack diameters. Don't use when raising steam, only slip on when first valve movement clears the valves and cylinders. Remove then and put in pocket to achieve dirty look of engineer. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: RE: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. That's a great point, Steve, Thanks for bringing it up. It saves a lot of hot water and oil in the eye (and oil and crud on the Missuss's dress!) when firing most butane locos. However, it can't be done where a blower or exhaust nozzzle is required such as a coal or alky fired loco. Interestingly, with my two Merlin locos, (1985 and 1989) the exhaust tubes came as you suggested except that the tubes were slotted rather than drilled. I can't understand why all small loco builders don't do this. If done with imagination it can also produce a chuff sound. Every Ruby owner should do this. I like your mistype snoke box--that's at excellent term for our small locos! Geoff. Most users install a exhaust diverter in the snoke stack. It is nothing more than a larger tube with the end pinched off and holes drilled about 1/2 down from the top. It has also been called a chuff tube. Keeps the loco cleaner and stops the spitting. Steve
Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
On 6/10/03 6:49 pm, JR May [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was not so much concerned about boiler safety as I was about Ruby spitting hot water out the stack. We carried 2000 passengers that weekend and I'd guess half took the shop tour with many taking the time to check out Ruby pulling a seven car mixed train (with power to spare!). Lots and lots of kids. Before starting Ruby up, I'd have to clear the kids back a few feet to keep the hot water and oil spray off of them. I have never had the chance to have a play with a Ruby, but certainly other Accucraft locomotives are fairly easy to fit with a 'chuff' pipe because they generally have an opening smokebox door. Now my main intention is actually to improve the sound of the chuff, but a by product of this is that oily water is dropped between the frames onto the track rather than being ejected out of the chimney and I don't have trouble with any of my locomotives (of whatever provenance) spitting or ejecting boiling water over people at exhibitions. I reduce the height of the exhaust tube and slide a larger tube over. The end is sealed at just below the top of the smokestack and an 'organ pipe' type slot is filed to exit steam/oil/water about 1/3 of the way up the stack. There are various detail changes one may make to the design. The ones I fit to Cheddar locomotives are filed to leave a thin reed across the slot. But in essence it is as simple as this. -- Yours Aye Tag Gorton Longlands Western Railway Trematon Office Saltash Cornwall Directors: T. Gorton, Madame E. Lash
RE: Boilers, Burners etc.
I had a plug on the back of my C-16 blow at 60psi when I was bench testing the engine. The bolt hit me in the chest and didn't really hurt even though it left a bruise. The water that came out was luke warm and not as hot as I would have thought. The plug was located toward the top of the boiler on the backhead. The engine was about 50% full so there was steam but the water came out at the same time. I'm thinking that maybe our engines are to small to really have a catastrophic explosion. Chad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Henner Meinhold Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 2:58 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Boilers, Burners etc. Hi, here some of my thoughts about boilers, burners and HO Live Steamers #1 Boilers: Having read the thread about the Midwest boiler I would like to present some heretic thoughts: So far I have built three silver soldered vertical copper boilers with nicely flanged plates and pressure tested to at least 2..3 times operating pressure. They are equipped with safety valves and additional silicon tubing between the boiler and the steam engine, acting as another safety device. But I am not sure anymore, if this is the right way to go, at least for very small boilers. The reason: In Model Engineer I read several articles about boiler failure. Once a leak develops, the pressure in the boiler drops slightly, developing more steam. The more or less constant pressure behind the leak causes the rupture to propagate with disastrous results. The whole system now acts as a steam rocket. In fact, exploding boilers have been known to travel several blocks. In our small boilers we have different conditions: The small amount of water/steam together with the small dimensions is not sufficient to start the propagation of the rupture. The water/steam will simply escape until the boiler is dry. Of course, the effect of hot steam and some reaction force trying to propel the boiler are still to be considered as a safety hazard. But the bottom line is: A small boiler does not explode. Now back to boiler design: Let us assume, for some reason the safety valve fails: The Midwest boiler is a fairly flimsy design, which should fail at low pressures. One of the solder joints might open up, releasing steam/water at reasonably low pressure and thats it. On the other hand, a well designed silver soldered boiler will build up a very high pressure (probably more than 10 times operating pressure). When this eventually leads to failure, the steam/water escapes much more violently with parts being torn off and hurling through the air. So the explosion of a well built boiler may be more disastrous than the failure of a flimsy one. The ultimate solution could be a well designed copper boiler with one or two soft soldered melting plugs as last chance safety valves. Any comments ? #2 Alcohol burners: My suggestion is to use silver soldered joints everywhere. In case of an alcohol spill the last thing you want to happen is one of the joints to open up. Brass tanks can easily be silver soldered (e.g. with Easyflow or an equivalent solder with a 617C -1143F melting temp.) without any distortion - photos on request. I use the swiss precision shear/bending brake now carried by MicroMark for all my sheet metal work. For tanks I make 2 U-shaped parts which can be put together with a slight press fit, secured with some bailing wire and soldered. It takes less than 1/2h to make a perfect tank ! #3 HO and smaller live steamers. Moeller in Germany sold electrically heated HO live steamers (a 0-8-0 tank and a 2-10-0 ) for several years. The heater was in the boiler and they even had Walschaerts gear. An Australian by the name of Sherwood built even smaller steamers with tiny butane burners, less than Z-gauge ! Links/schematics on request. As I am out of town Mo. ..Fr., I can respond only on weekends, apart from off-line mail. Regards Henner
Re: Boilers
Bob, The way I discovered my safety being stuck was that I had no condensate weeping through the safety as I normally do. A slight tug on the center pin (not the stock safety obviously) set it free with a good blast of steam. (And it looked Cool!, all safety considerations aside.) Now the safety is the first thing I check with a little tug on the center pin. During the steamup process I watch for condensate weeping from the top of the safety. Thought it might help someone else detect a stuck safety before it created problems. Later, Trent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I recently had trouble with my safety on my Ruby, stuck real good
Re: Boilers
At 10:55 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote: Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive tests performed on 2 x 8 center flue butane boilers. One that the safety didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry Jim Re your second suggestion, I predict the outcome of that one. If a boiler can be run dry, meaning all available water converted to steam, that implies there is an escape route for the steam. If there's no more water to turn to steam, and the escape route remains open, there can be no danger or damage from accumulated pressure. The problem in that case would be excess heat which would affect paint, radio gear, washers, o-rings, gaskets, soft solder construction, white metal fittings, and fingers. The basic boiler structure would be essentially unaffected. Cheers, Harry
Re: Boilers
I can tell you that they start to smell like roasting electronics when the water gets too low... I shut it down then, it had been running out of power and I couldn't figure out why turning up the heat made little difference. Oh but if I had years more experience! ;] Not helpful, but I won't forget that part of the steamup process again! =) Trot, the hot-fingered, fox... On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Harry Wade wrote: At 10:55 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote: Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive tests performed on 2 x 8 center flue butane boilers. One that the safety didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry Jim Re your second suggestion, I predict the outcome of that one. If a boiler can be run dry, meaning all available water converted to steam, that implies there is an escape route for the steam. If there's no more water to turn to steam, and the escape route remains open, there can be no danger or damage from accumulated pressure. The problem in that case would be excess heat which would affect paint, radio gear, washers, o-rings, gaskets, soft solder construction, white metal fittings, and fingers. The basic boiler structure would be essentially unaffected. Cheers, Harry /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ There is a \./ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative.
Re: Boilers
At 12:17 PM 8/21/01 -0400, you wrote: I can tell you that they start to smell like roasting electronics when the water gets too low... I shut it down then, it had been running out of power and I couldn't figure out why turning up the heat made little difference. Oh but if I had years more experience! ;] Re Low water . . . . . I have a slightly modified black Pannier which I just love to run it because it runs so good. Despite my unabashed affection for it, my practice, which flies in the face of the conventional wisdom spouted by the current gurus of the hobby as the Accepted Rules for Steaming Up, is to fill it completely full to brimming with fluids (water, oil, spirits) and run it until one of them is completely used up; that's invariably the water. In that instance having a full charge of steam in the boiler is as good as having water. The heat is absorbed in superheating the remaining steam. Remember our thread a while back on zippiness in locomotives? That's when my version of 'zippiness occurs, just as the last drops of water and boiler full of steam is taking on superheat from the burner. Throttled back the Pannier will kick its heels for 1-2 track circuits on that last superheated charge, but the moment that charge is exhausted the trouble can begin because there is nothing left to absorbe the heat but the loco itself. My practice is to avoid overheating by pre-shutting down the fuel feed shortly before the water is used up and before arriving at steam only left in the boiler. (Yes, unfortunately, that involves actually driving the loco and tending to its needs.) I had one near-miss when I forgit to pre-shut down the fuel and the fire extinguisher I'd been borrowing had been packed away, but other than that I've been running it in this way and it hasn't been hurt it in the least. BUT the last thing in the world I'd want to do is endanger my loco so when I have fire I always take care to have two other things present: something in the boiler to absorbe the heat (water or steam), and movement (or blower). Otherwise i'm inviting bar-b-que'd loco. This leads me to another thought I had lately, which is that of the areas of our hobby that present potential problems, it seems to me fueling and firing activities, and the construction of fueling components, present a much greater potential for damage and injury than do boilers. Cheers, Harry
Re: Boilers
This leads me to another thought I had lately, which is that of the areas of our hobby that present potential problems, it seems to me fueling and firing activities, and the construction of fueling components, present a much greater potential for damage and injury than do boilers. Good point Harry. I've seen alot more track fires and singed eyebrows than blown boilers. And those mixed-gas users leaving butane designed tanks in direct sun light. Lots more pressure problem potential there than in a boiler, hey?
Re: Boilers
Harry: Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive tests performed on 2 x 8 center flue butane boilers. One that the safety didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry Jim
Re: Boilers
May I suggest that you do that particular demo out in the open lot between the DH bowling alley and the nightclub across the parking lot. I think I have plans during that time and won't be able to attend. grin Later, Trent Jim Curry wrote: Harry: Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive tests performed on 2 x 8 center flue butane boilers. One that the safety didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry
Re: Boilers
I didn't mean it as a demo. I suggested he bring the results of the tests for show and tell. Jim
Re: Boilers
Jim, I like that idea better now. grin It would certainly show the importance of a properly built, maintained, and operated boiler. Later, Trent Jim Curry wrote: I didn't mean it as a demo. I suggested he bring the results of the tests for show and tell.
RE: Boilers
Dear All, this sort of test has been carried out by Cheddar Models on one of the marine boilers which is about the same volume, all that happened was that the flu tube went phu! distorted as I understand it, basically no big deal!. In the UK we have to have any boiler with a working pressure of 30psi over, a capacity of over 1 UK pint tested every two years for our public liability insurance, That includes the safety valve. I understand that small steam loco's in the UK don't have a requirement for testing, Also our marine refillable gas tanks have to be tested with the same frequency which I think is a nonsense as our marine gas tanks are built like brick privies (or outside john's to you guys across the pond) I just thought this might be of some interest to you all. Best regards Geoff Waldorf Chairman, Cheddar Steam Club www.cheddar-steam-club.co.uk May I suggest that you do that particular demo out in the open lot between the DH bowling alley and the nightclub across the parking lot. I think I have plans during that time and won't be able to attend. grin Later, Trent Jim Curry wrote: Harry: Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive tests performed on 2 x 8 center flue butane boilers. One that the safety didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry
Re: Boilers
At 10:55 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote: Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive tests performed on 2 x 8 center flue butane boilers. One that the safety didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry Jim Jim, As much as I enjoy engaging in unneccessary theatrics, and as much of a crowd pleaser as it sounds like, I'm afraid the results would be disappointing (as just now alluded to by Geoff Waldorf). This same sort of test has been done here with similar results. If I were to take the average Ga1 boiler, say 2 x 8 and 16ga (.062/1.5mm +/-) copper all around, fill it to brimming with water, and set to it with an oxy/acetylene torch, eventually I could create some excitement, but the reality of course is that we hardly use enough fire to scorch the end of a medium sized cigar. COAL fires are a different matter altogether so we need to be careful not to assume that the behavior and effects of coal fires will eb the same as spirit or gas firing. I feel that in order for test or demonstration of this kind to have any validity and carry weight it must be realistic in both design and presentation. Of course we could demonstrate the dangers inherent in a Ga1 boiler by heating it with a virtually unlimited heat source, such as an oxy/acetylene torch, but how many of us fire with oxy/acetylene (only one or two that I know of :-). My feeling is that as long as the heat source is limited, such as ours are, the potential for outright failure of an otherwise sound boiler is limited. To conduct unrealistic tests and then publicize the results, such as an exploded Ga1 boiler, exploded only because it was heated to incandescence with oxy/acetyl, would do us far more harm than good. A realistic test would be to take a typical Ga1 boiler, filled to operating level, and using a typical Ga1 burner, either gas or spirits, fire up, and watch what happens. My own guess (and this is a guess) . . . nothing, because the ability of copper to absorb and conduct heat away from its source exceeds the ability of our burners to add sufficient heat to the system to bring it to near critical temperature. Critical temperature would mean the point at which either the silver solder or the copper would lose its strength causing a joint failure. IMHO the temperature of the vessel and pressure, at a given firing rate, would reach an equalibrium and beyond that point it would just sit there and sizzle. I am not prepared to venture a guess as to what pressures might be developed in such a test. It would be interesting to find out. Cheers, Harry
RE: Boilers
At 06:03 PM 8/20/01 +0100, you wrote: In the UK we have to have any boiler with a working pressure of 30psi over, a capacity of over 1 UK pint tested every two years for our public liability insurance, Small scale live steamers should be aware that in the U.S. many (but not all) state boiler codes (laws), most of which are based either entirely or in part upon the A.S.M.E. Standards for Pressure Vessels, contain clauses which exclude boilers below a certain volume or grate area from compliance with state regulation or having to be built to code standards. (A copper boiler cannot be code no matter how it's built.) The majority of these exclusions were negotiated by large scale live steam clubs to make running miniature (read model) boilers legal. (The A.S.M.E. definition of miniature boiler and our meaning of the term are different.) Those model boilers which can be built to code (steel) are, those which can't (copper) are in most cases excluded.Based upon this, garden gauge boilers in the U.S. will almost certainly be excluded and there is not as yet, as far as I know, a hard connection between testing and certification and insurability in the U.S. There will probably come a time when changes in our society will force more strict and comprehensive regulation upon us, but for the moment we have our cake and can eat it too, that is why some of us feel it's important to preserve our record of 100% safety. Cheers, Harry
Re: Boilers
Harry, What would you predict the results would be if the boiler was very hot, almost dry, and water was introduced? This was the apparent reason for the traction engine failure recently resulting in loss of life. Obviously size is of great importance here. Keep your steam up! Walt Lunk
RE: Boilers
Just a question from the side, how would you get enough water into one of our type of boilers, I can see possibly how on a traction engine but not our type, there is no where for the water to lodge! must go ,It's 22.13 here. best regards Geoff Waldorf -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 August 2001 21:58 To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Boilers Harry, What would you predict the results would be if the boiler was very hot, almost dry, and water was introduced? This was the apparent reason for the traction engine failure recently resulting in loss of life. Obviously size is of great importance here. Keep your steam up! Walt Lunk
Re: Boilers
At 04:57 PM 8/20/01 EDT, you wrote: Harry, What would you predict the results would be if the boiler was very hot, almost dry, and water was introduced? This was the apparent reason for the traction engine failure recently resulting in loss of life. Obviously size is of great importance here. Walt Lunk Yes size is of importance, but with regard to the Ohio case despite official reports there is still a great deal of speculation and misinformation about what actually happened there, and there are well respected authorities on boiler design and behavior as well as historical empirical data which contends that for reasons having to do with the laws of thermodynamics overpressuring due to flash steam could not have been sufficient cause as has been widely reported. Convenient, but not conclusive. I don't speculate one way or another because I don't know enough about any of the circumstances to say but it is safe to say that like so many other mishaps a number of factors contributed to the accident which individually were unlikely to have caused it. As we all should know by now the amount of heat needed to turn water to steam rises as the pressure rises. At one atmosphere the boiling point of water is 212 deg F. At 60 psi it's 307 deg F. (153 C.)In an overheated or stuck valve condition in one of our boilers the pressure will reach a point where the burner in incapable of adding enough heat to the system to turn any more water to steam. Thus it has reached thermal equilibrium, in my guess below the critical point of the boiler, and will sit there and sizzle, as I mentioned in my earlier post, but I don't know where that equilibrium point is. To answer your question, I have no prediction because I don't know. My guess would be that there would be a momentary increase in pressure, probably large on a % of WP (working pressure) basis, but essentially then, nothing. However while the boiler was being run dry the shell was busy taking on a great deal of additional heat which when presented with a little more water could indeed flash into enough pressure to be destructive. I guess we're just going to have to try it and see. I suppose I should add this qualification, which is that all of this assumes that fittings, closures, gauges (if included), etc., are not the source of a failure. Naturally our fittings, such as water gauges, aren't intended to withstand these conditions and so could not be considered a 'failure. Bushings on the other hand must be capable of withstanding as much if not more pressure than the basic boiler shell. Cheers, Harry
