Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
Le vendredi 27 juillet 2018, 16:41:57 CEST Philipp Hörist a écrit : > Hi, > > Didnt know about that PEP sentence, i dont know any implementation that > does this, but still if its possible we should limit 0384 to singleton > Node usage, but to be honest so should every other XEP that depends on > PEP. Well XEP-0277 that we are using a lot in SàT and Movim is using multiple items, not only the last one, so our implementations keeps all items. The issue is not about notifications here, but the fact that updated items will be pushed to new ones instead of replacing current one, and in the case of OMEMO bundles, this can quickly grow. Goffi ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
Le vendredi 27 juillet 2018, 19:21:22 CEST Goffi a écrit : > An (animated) picture worth thousand words :) > > https://repos.goffi.org/sat_docs/raw-file/tip/screenshots/0.7/ > language_filtering.gif > > The experimental language detection put aside, I'm using xml:lang here to > display the language used, and this allow language filtering, which is > really useful in a multilingual room. This data can also be used to propose > translation, and probably other neat features. > > With OMEMO I'm loosing the xml:lang (the disappear), and I'm not > sure where I could put it (I think this information should be encrypted > too). > > thanks > Goffi sorry, the image link has been cut: https://repos.goffi.org/sat_docs/raw-file/tip/screenshots/0.7/[1] _language_filtering.gif_ [1] https://repos.goffi.org/sat_docs/raw-file/tip/screenshots/0.7/ language_filtering.gif ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
Le vendredi 27 juillet 2018, 17:24:27 CEST Peter Saint-Andre a écrit : > On 7/27/18 8:03 AM, Goffi wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I'm currently working on OMEMO implementation in Salut à Toi thanks to > > the work of Syndace (https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo), and I > > have two issues with it: > > > > - SàT is using xml:lang attribute, and I don't see a way to specify it > > with OMEMO, how should I do? What are business rules when several > > bodies are available (I know it's not common, but it's allowed by > > RFCs)? > > Could you describe in more detail what you're trying to accomplish? > Section 5.2.3 of RFC 6121 talks about xml:lang for message bodies, but > perhaps you need more information. > > Peter An (animated) picture worth thousand words :) https://repos.goffi.org/sat_docs/raw-file/tip/screenshots/0.7/ language_filtering.gif The experimental language detection put aside, I'm using xml:lang here to display the language used, and this allow language filtering, which is really useful in a multilingual room. This data can also be used to propose translation, and probably other neat features. With OMEMO I'm loosing the xml:lang (the disappear), and I'm not sure where I could put it (I think this information should be encrypted too). thanks Goffi ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] XEP-0060: "entity element" should be "subscription element"
Hoi Melvin, Thanks for your comment. I agree this is likely a leftover. If you want, you can create a pull request over at https://github.com/xsf/xeps. Otherwise, just attach a patch to an email here. -- ralphm From: Melvin Vermeeren Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 18:09 To: standards@xmpp.org Subject: [Standards] XEP-0060: "entity element" should be "subscription element" > Hi, > > I noticed something minor when working on PubSub which initially caused some > confusion. Section 6.1.6 of XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe says: > > therefore the SubID MUST be unique for each node+JID combination and the > > SubID MUST be present on the entity element any time it is sent to the > > subscriber > > I believe "entity element" should be "subscription element" here. A search on > "entity element" gives a few more hits, It appears they should all be > replaced > as well since "" appears to not exist anymore currently. > > Looks like they are leftovers from an old version of the XEP, since 1.8's > changelog has the following item: > > Changed element to element in response to > > subscription request > > I am not yet familiar with sending patches for XEPs. Could someone either > make > the change or give me some directions? Thanks. > > -- > Regards, > > Melvin Vermeeren > ___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
[Standards] XEP-0060: "entity element" should be "subscription element"
Hi, I noticed something minor when working on PubSub which initially caused some confusion. Section 6.1.6 of XEP-0060: Publish-Subscribe says: > therefore the SubID MUST be unique for each node+JID combination and the > SubID MUST be present on the entity element any time it is sent to the > subscriber I believe "entity element" should be "subscription element" here. A search on "entity element" gives a few more hits, It appears they should all be replaced as well since "" appears to not exist anymore currently. Looks like they are leftovers from an old version of the XEP, since 1.8's changelog has the following item: > Changed element to element in response to > subscription request I am not yet familiar with sending patches for XEPs. Could someone either make the change or give me some directions? Thanks. -- Regards, Melvin Vermeeren signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
On Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 17:07:52 CEST Philipp Hörist wrote: > > but instead limit their queries to the newest item. > > They cant, because thats an optional feature of the Server. They could still execute the limit on the client side. kind regards, Jonas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
On 7/27/18 8:03 AM, Goffi wrote: > Hello, > > I'm currently working on OMEMO implementation in Salut à Toi thanks to the > work of Syndace (https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo), and I have two > issues with it: > > - SàT is using xml:lang attribute, and I don't see a way to specify it with > OMEMO, how should I do? What are business rules when several bodies are > available (I know it's not common, but it's allowed by RFCs)? Could you describe in more detail what you're trying to accomplish? Section 5.2.3 of RFC 6121 talks about xml:lang for message bodies, but perhaps you need more information. Peter signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
> but instead limit their queries to the newest item. They cant, because thats an optional feature of the Server. Its not about querying a ID, its about writing that the ID has to be set. If you write MUST set "recent" as id, i think its a namespace bump, if you dont write this, then you are in the same situation as now, it could be a singleton Node, but also it couldnt. Regards Philipp 2018-07-27 17:01 GMT+02:00 Jonas Wielicki : > On Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 16:41:57 CEST Philipp Hörist wrote: > > I think this is a good addition to the XEP, although i fear this would > be a > > namespace bump, but from practical experience every PEP impl sends only > the > > last item, so this is until now a academic problem > > This wouldn’t be a namespace bump in my reading of the rules, since > setting or > not setting the item ID does not pose an interoperability issue: > > * A new item which is pushed will always be the newest item irrespectively > on > whether it replaced an existing item or not. > > * Since the ID wasn’t fixed before, no implementation will be asking for > this > specific ID. We have to write down that implementations SHOULD NOT rely on > this ID for queries, but instead limit their queries to the newest item. > > * No implementation should be relying on getting a history of OMEMO public > keys, since many PEP implementations do or did not support this. > > kind regards, > Jonas > ___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ > > ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
On Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 16:41:57 CEST Philipp Hörist wrote: > I think this is a good addition to the XEP, although i fear this would be a > namespace bump, but from practical experience every PEP impl sends only the > last item, so this is until now a academic problem This wouldn’t be a namespace bump in my reading of the rules, since setting or not setting the item ID does not pose an interoperability issue: * A new item which is pushed will always be the newest item irrespectively on whether it replaced an existing item or not. * Since the ID wasn’t fixed before, no implementation will be asking for this specific ID. We have to write down that implementations SHOULD NOT rely on this ID for queries, but instead limit their queries to the newest item. * No implementation should be relying on getting a history of OMEMO public keys, since many PEP implementations do or did not support this. kind regards, Jonas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
Hi, Didnt know about that PEP sentence, i dont know any implementation that does this, but still if its possible we should limit 0384 to singleton Node usage, but to be honest so should every other XEP that depends on PEP. you misunderstood me with the max_items=1, yes you can configure a node with max_items=1 but you can also specify this in a pubsub request of a Node (not config): https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-requestrecent But this seems to be optional *also* So indeed the only not optional thing here is Singleton Node I think this is a good addition to the XEP, although i fear this would be a namespace bump, but from practical experience every PEP impl sends only the last item, so this is until now a academic problem Regards Philipp 2018-07-27 16:26 GMT+02:00 Goffi : > Hey, thanks for the quick feedback > > Le vendredi 27 juillet 2018, 16:10:38 CEST Philipp Hörist a écrit : > > On the Pubsub Questions: > > > > 1. In Pubsub there is already defined the Singleton Node: > > https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton, no need to > > invent a new item id for that > > Oh great, I've missed this one. But it doesn't seems used by other clients > unfortunately, would be nice to add an implementation note on that in > XEP-0384 > > > 2. I think its not specified because your client should not care how many > > items are in a PubSub Node. Your Client either uses PEP and PEP should > > only notify you about the last/most recent item on the node, i think > > thats the reason PEP exists. > > XEP-0163 §4.3.4 says "When processing a new subscription, the service MAY > send not only the last published item but instead all items that are > currently associated with the node (i.e., up to the maximum number of > items > at the node, which might be one if the node is a "singleton node" as > described in XEP-0060)", so it can send all items > > > 3. if you dont want to use PEP you can always request the most recent > > item from a node with specifying max_items=1 in the request. > > It's not that I don't want to use PEP (I'm using it), it's that I don't > want to have the same items recorded again and again for nothing. > I've mentioned max_items=1 in my previous message, but this feature is > optional, and if singleton is needed (which is the case), it should be > indicated in the XEP-0384 in my opinion. > > > So my question would be, how do you get into a situation where a server > > sends you all items of the Node? > > It's not in my notifications, I'm checking manually the content of my PEP > nodes to check the workflow. > > > > > regards > > Philipp > > Thanks > Goffi > > > ___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ > ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
Hey, thanks for the quick feedback Le vendredi 27 juillet 2018, 16:10:38 CEST Philipp Hörist a écrit : > On the Pubsub Questions: > > 1. In Pubsub there is already defined the Singleton Node: > https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton, no need to > invent a new item id for that Oh great, I've missed this one. But it doesn't seems used by other clients unfortunately, would be nice to add an implementation note on that in XEP-0384 > 2. I think its not specified because your client should not care how many > items are in a PubSub Node. Your Client either uses PEP and PEP should > only notify you about the last/most recent item on the node, i think > thats the reason PEP exists. XEP-0163 §4.3.4 says "When processing a new subscription, the service MAY send not only the last published item but instead all items that are currently associated with the node (i.e., up to the maximum number of items at the node, which might be one if the node is a "singleton node" as described in XEP-0060)", so it can send all items > 3. if you dont want to use PEP you can always request the most recent > item from a node with specifying max_items=1 in the request. It's not that I don't want to use PEP (I'm using it), it's that I don't want to have the same items recorded again and again for nothing. I've mentioned max_items=1 in my previous message, but this feature is optional, and if singleton is needed (which is the case), it should be indicated in the XEP-0384 in my opinion. > So my question would be, how do you get into a situation where a server > sends you all items of the Node? It's not in my notifications, I'm checking manually the content of my PEP nodes to check the workflow. > > regards > Philipp Thanks Goffi ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
On the Pubsub Questions: 1. In Pubsub there is already defined the Singleton Node: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl-singleton, no need to invent a new item id for that 2. I think its not specified because your client should not care how many items are in a PubSub Node. Your Client either uses PEP and PEP should only notify you about the last/most recent item on the node, i think thats the reason PEP exists. 3. if you dont want to use PEP you can always request the most recent item from a node with specifying max_items=1 in the request. So my question would be, how do you get into a situation where a server sends you all items of the Node? regards Philipp 2018-07-27 16:03 GMT+02:00 Goffi : > Hello, > > I'm currently working on OMEMO implementation in Salut à Toi thanks to the > work of Syndace (https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo), and I have two > issues with it: > > - SàT is using xml:lang attribute, and I don't see a way to specify it > with > OMEMO, how should I do? What are business rules when several bodies are > available (I know it's not common, but it's allowed by RFCs)? > > - only the first item of PEP nodes are used, and it seems that client are > implicitly expecting max_items=1 (i.e. singleton pattern), but I don't see > any mention of that in the XEP. Furthermore, max_items support is > optional > in Pubsub, and I see in my PEP nodes the same items published several > times. This could be mitigated by using a well known id for the item (e.g. > the OMEMO namespace), so even pubsub services not featuring max_items > would > simply override the existing item. > > That's all for now, thanks > Goffi > > > ___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ > ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
[Standards] [XEP-0384] OMEMO: xml:lang + max_items
Hello, I'm currently working on OMEMO implementation in Salut à Toi thanks to the work of Syndace (https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo), and I have two issues with it: - SàT is using xml:lang attribute, and I don't see a way to specify it with OMEMO, how should I do? What are business rules when several bodies are available (I know it's not common, but it's allowed by RFCs)? - only the first item of PEP nodes are used, and it seems that client are implicitly expecting max_items=1 (i.e. singleton pattern), but I don't see any mention of that in the XEP. Furthermore, max_items support is optional in Pubsub, and I see in my PEP nodes the same items published several times. This could be mitigated by using a well known id for the item (e.g. the OMEMO namespace), so even pubsub services not featuring max_items would simply override the existing item. That's all for now, thanks Goffi ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
