Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Maxime Buquet]

On 2019/03/27, Sam Whited wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 17:14, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > 0393 is not bad, IMHO. It might need two or three additions, esp.
> > hyperlinks, but most typical use cases are covered.
> 
> What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit? I
> keep hearing people say they want them, but I don't really
> understand why they're necessary over just auto linking things that
> look like URLs. Thanks.

At work we use Mattermost (Slack-like alternative). Mattermost allows
one of the many markdown variants to be used[0].

Out of about 100 people, I see hyperlinks being used every single day.
Of course autolinking is also used (when it doesn't fail), but people
also seem to be using them to shorten the displayed sentences[1], or
provide a bit of context to a link. For example:

"I'm working on [implementing that teleport
machine](https://linktoourtracker.company.com/T12345) we talked about.
See also [that related
ticket](https://linktoourtracker.company.com/T12346)."

[0]: https://docs.mattermost.com/help/getting-started/messaging-basics.html
[1]: Yes, Mattermost doesn't allow me to disable this formatted display.

-- 
Maxime “pep” Buquet


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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Evgeny]

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:41 PM, Philipp Hörist  
wrote:
I saw no arguments against 0394 and its approach, as i see it 
perfectly fits Andrews usecases.
I dont see that there is a need to enclose each markup element into 
reference elements just for the sake of consistency. This would lead 
to some horrible inefficient syntax. I think developers can deal with 
the syntax that is described in 0394, they will not give up because 
they dont find a reference element.


I'm not a client developer, but technically I tend to think that 
XEP-0394 is way superior because you get ready to use AST attached to 
the text, so you don't even need to parse anything.


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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Philipp Hörist]

Am Do., 28. März 2019 um 09:48 Uhr schrieb Dave Cridland :

>
> 3) I don't think Andrew's assertion that our current (partial?) solutions
> for his requirements are an overlapping mess ought to be discarded out of
> hand. Cleaning these things up might make a lot of sense.
>
>
I dont see an overlapping mess.

We have an old deferred standard IM-XHTML -> We have a potential new
approach XEP-0394
We have an old insufficient way to send media OOB -> We have a potential
new sufficient approach SIMS  (There will always be one more missing attr
that could potentially be useful in a media transfer so i ignore the fact
that Andrew wants to transfer seconds of a audio file, this is easily added)

There is a "lets document the client praxis" kind of XEP-0393 which states
some easy markdown syntax that may be encountered when using XMPP. I see
this as a sort of document where developers can look up some easy markup
stuff that some clients use. I dont see this as a serious approach to solve
all markup needs of XMPP and i dont think it should be further extended.
Yet people will probably use it because they know the syntax from other
IM-Apps. But i dont see this XEP in opposition to any other XEP.

I saw no arguments against 0394 and its approach, as i see it perfectly
fits Andrews usecases.
I dont see that there is a need to enclose each markup element into
reference elements just for the sake of consistency. This would lead to
some horrible inefficient syntax. I think developers can deal with the
syntax that is described in 0394, they will not give up because they dont
find a reference element.

Whats missing from SIMS except some useful attrs?


Regards
Philipp
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Dave Cridland]

Evgeny,

While I'm certain that Carlo is thick-skinned enough to ignore this remark,
I don't think it's helpful either to this thread or the community as a
whole. I appreciate it's hard not to react, I've done so myself many times
in the past, but I've learnt painfully that it is more useful to keep
things polite, technical and focused. Hopefully I manage to do this most of
the time. Feel free to call me out when I err, I do appreciate it - at
least in the long term. :-)

Please, everyone, ensure your messages are like an efficient light bulb -
optimise for light, not heat.

Thanks,

Dave.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 21:25, Evgeny  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 11:17 PM, carlo von lynX 
> wrote:
> > XMPP will be nearly completely dead in coming years
> > as it has always refused to change the fundament of its
> > inflexibility
>
> Hey, dude, how is your psyced going? Oh, it's dead. Okay.
>
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Dave Cridland]

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 18:25, Sam Whited  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 17:14, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > 0393 is not bad, IMHO. It might need two or three additions, esp.
> > hyperlinks, but most typical use cases are covered.
>
> What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit? I
> keep hearing people say they want them, but I don't really
> understand why they're necessary over just auto linking things that
> look like URLs. Thanks.


URLs are often frustratingly long, and they're also surprisingly difficult
to pick out of text unless the longhand formal syntax is used. Real users
often do not send those, instead sending a bare domain - or just a typo
missing a space after the period.which often gets highlighted as a URL...

Many consumer systems I've been playing with recently instead have a formal
"link" construct that's sent alongside the message, much like Andrew's
suggesting here.

An exception, as you point out elsewhere, is Slack - but Slack is
fascinating in its demographics. It's the darling of tech and finance
departments everywhere, but our sales department hates it - it is not the
model you want to follow for consumer-grade social IM.

In any case, we're neither trying to replicate any particular existing
system, nor taking Andrew's suggestions and immediately pushing them
through to Draft.

I said before (but foolishly replied and thus quoted his monster message in
entirety), I think there's a few things we can very usefully draw from the
message:

1) It makes an excellent list of requirements for a modern consumer-grade
social IM.

2) Some of the details are things missing from our current stack. I'm
thinking that "legacy" trick, for example.

3) I don't think Andrew's assertion that our current (partial?) solutions
for his requirements are an overlapping mess ought to be discarded out of
hand. Cleaning these things up might make a lot of sense.

Dave.
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Evgeny]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 11:17 PM, carlo von lynX  
wrote:

XMPP will be nearly completely dead in coming years
as it has always refused to change the fundament of its
inflexibility


Hey, dude, how is your psyced going? Oh, it's dead. Okay.

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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Sam Whited :

IM isn't the web,


I agree. IM messages are - in general - short. Named URLs allow
shorter messages, that are better readable esp. by non-technical
people. In the context of 0393, I suggest something like:

[http://shakespeare.mit.edu/macbeth/ The Tragedy of Macbeth]

and

[xmpp:x...@chat.yax.im?join Off-topic MUC]

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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[carlo von lynX]

SCNR to respond to this absurd thread...

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 05:52:47PM +0500, Ненахов Андрей wrote:
> Obviously, we want to be able to have basic markup:
> *bold*
> *italic*
> *underline*
> strikethrough
> hyperlinks 

Agree with others that hyperlinks are no good.. mostly
suitable for phishing. Regarding the rest, the best
markup syntax for rich text is XML, IMHO. Unfortunately
XMPP is itself a dialect of XML, therefore embedding
XML in XML is a terrible mess and so you are forced to
discuss uglier solutions like the ones you listed.

But the mail gets even better than I expected:

> Modern messengers are capable to send various media, often presenting it as
> such.

XMPP was born during the short period of XML hype when
the Internet was 100% convinced that XML is the syntax
to solve all problems. Unfortunately embedding media
into XMPP is horrible. HTTP is much better for that,
that's why all modern messengers are using HTTP - with
funny side effects like messages arriving in wrong order.
But in exchange you get embedded audio, video, photos
and all that - which in this day and age is an absolute
must. XMPP will be nearly completely dead in coming years
as it has always refused to change the fundament of its
inflexibility, the bad choice of building on top of XML -
while new generations will not even consider a messenger
that cannot deliver an audio clip. Now you say, but we
can upload the audio by HTTP without actually embedding
it. Yes, but that increases latency as the client must
fetch the audio only after it got info about its existence.

> I could include more examples, but I think a picture is already clear.
> Thoughts, anyone?

Within the limitations of XMPP, your ideas are among
the least worst.

-- 
  E-mail is public! Talk to me in private using encryption:
   //  http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/LynX/
  //irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/lynX
 //https://psyced.org/LynX/
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Sam Whited]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 20:01, Ненахов Андрей wrote:
> Ever heard of that insanely popular thing, Telegram Channels
> ? If you ever were subscribed to
> any more or less popular channel, you would not ask these question.
> There are no reasons why we can't replicate that functionality in
> XMPP. Of course, the line has to be drawn somewhere, but it's not on
> named links.

I have, but I've also heard of lots of other messengers like WhatsApp
and Slack that don't allow this. Like I said, I'm not entirely against
it, but I don't see a compelling reason to add that level of complexity.
Let's start with the bare minimum and add features as we discover actual
problems that need to be solved. It's easier to add a feature later than
it is to take a feature away after users have already gotten used to it.

—Sam
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Ненахов Андрей]

> That's not an instant message. Are you expecting long form content to be
> distributed in XMPP that needs design? Does that mean we add fonts?
> Ligatures? An entire layout and content system as well?
>
> IM isn't the web, I'm asking about what benefit you think links provide
> in the context of IM, not the web.
>

Ever heard of that insanely popular thing, Telegram Channels
?  If you ever were subscribed to any
more or less popular channel, you would not ask these question. There are
no reasons why we can't replicate that functionality in XMPP.
Of course, the line has to be drawn somewhere, but it's not on named links.

-- 
Andrew Nenakhov
CEO, Redsolution, Inc.
https://redsolution.com 
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Sam Whited]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 19:41, Ненахов Андрей wrote:
> Not all messages are born to be sent in a quick and dirty way. They
> are better because they don't look like they were sent by a lazy geek.
> Some usecases require a craftily structured beautiful message. Of
> course, you'll say that 'this is not the answer'.
>
> All right. Let's dig deeper: image.png
>
> Why didn't you write,
>
> n. *Informal* a simple theme for https://octopress.org and
>http://jekyllrb.com/ by https://blog.samwhited.com/ A live preview
>can be found https://web.archive.org/web/20170719001930/
>https://blog.samwhited.com/
>
> ?
>
> From what you're saying, this is no worse, no?

That's not an instant message. Are you expecting long form content to be
distributed in XMPP that needs design? Does that mean we add fonts?
Ligatures? An entire layout and content system as well?

IM isn't the web, I'm asking about what benefit you think links provide
in the context of IM, not the web.

—Sam
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Sam Whited :

What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit? I
keep hearing people say they want them, but I don't really
understand why they're necessary over just auto linking things that
look like URLs. Thanks.


URLs are sometimes readable to me, sometimes not.
For most non-geek people URLs are never readable.
Therefore, HTML has an anchor element with content and
not just auto linking. Mainly an aesthetical question.

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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Ненахов Андрей]

> This isn't an answer; how do they benefit users? How is this better than:
>
> "Hey, here's a link to the XEP we were talking about:
> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html";
>

Not all messages are born to be sent in a quick and dirty way. They are
better because they don't look like they were sent by a lazy geek. Some
usecases require a craftily structured beautiful message. Of course, you'll
say that 'this is not the answer'.

All right. Let's dig deeper:
[image: image.png]

Why didn't you write,

n. *Informal* a simple theme for https://octopress.org and
http://jekyllrb.com/ by https://blog.samwhited.com/
A live preview can be found
https://web.archive.org/web/20170719001930/https://blog.samwhited.com/

?

>From what you're saying, this is no worse, no?

-- 
Andrew Nenakhov
CEO, Redsolution, Inc.
https://redsolution.com 
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Sam Whited]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 18:52, Ненахов Андрей wrote:
> >  What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit?
> 
> They benefit users. You know, exactly that part of equation that XMPP 
> currently lacks. 
> 
> And the use-case is to make human-readable hyperlinks with titles. For 
> some reason, links on this page with a list of XMPP extensions 
>  look like XEP-0001 
> , not like 
> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html 

This isn't an answer; how do they benefit users? How is this better than:

"Hey, here's a link to the XEP we were talking about: 
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html";

—Sam
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Ненахов Андрей]

> What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit?


They benefit users. You know, exactly that part of equation that XMPP
currently lacks.

And the use-case is to make human-readable hyperlinks with titles. For some
reason, links on this page with a list of XMPP extensions
 look like XEP-0001
, not like
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html

[image: image.png]

-- 
Andrew Nenakhov
CEO, Redsolution, Inc.
https://redsolution.com 
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Ненахов Андрей]

ср, 27 мар. 2019 г. в 23:08, Philipp Hörist :

> Hi,
>
> you try to do what 0394 does, but your syntax is way more bloated and i
> dont see any value added, so why not just use 0394?
> ah yes because you seem to think adoption is better if you stuff
> everything into one XEP. I disagree, in fact i think it has no effect on
> adoption at all.
> Implementing "bold" or "italic" in a client is probably 2 hours work,
> displaying an audio or video player inside your chat window, ranges
> depending on your OS and GUI Framework from many days work to almost
> impossible.
>
> For media transfers there is also already SIMS, where is the added value?
>

The added value is removing a mess that there is. I did not say that there
should be a 'ONE XEP', I said that there should be 'one principle'. It
actually makes sense to, say, convert 0372 into root 'reference' and adding
some simple XEPs to address various specific uses of this for different
cases.

Also, for 'there is also already SIMS'. I don't consider XEP-0385 as
something that already 'IS':
 - references deferred XEP-0372
 - biggest example references deprecated XEP-0071
 - no types of media are ever defined anywhere

How do we share an .ogg voice message, 35seconds long, and 0.31MiB size,
and let recipient display that info without downloading that file?


>
> I can see that it makes sense to have a place where it is described how
> everything is tied together, but this does not have to be a XEP, the XEP is
> only the protocol what is put on the wire, if you put everything into one
> XEP it does not help a developer in any way to develop a nice looking, good
> working GUI. (Thats the actual work)
>

Actually, no. Making a nice looking GUI is a much easier problem when there
is a consistent set of rules you have to follow, without ferreting out bits
of sense in a heap of disorganized docs. After creating clients for three
separate platforms, making sense of XMPP XEPs is by far the worst part of
experience.


-- 
Andrew Nenakhov
CEO, Redsolution, Inc.
https://redsolution.com 
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 3/27/19 12:24 PM, Sam Whited wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 17:14, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
>> 0393 is not bad, IMHO. It might need two or three additions, esp.
>> hyperlinks, but most typical use cases are covered.
> 
> What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit? I
> keep hearing people say they want them, but I don't really
> understand why they're necessary over just auto linking things that
> look like URLs. Thanks.

+1

/psa
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Sam Whited]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2019, at 17:14, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> 0393 is not bad, IMHO. It might need two or three additions, esp.
> hyperlinks, but most typical use cases are covered.

What is the use case for hyper links and who does it benefit? I
keep hearing people say they want them, but I don't really
understand why they're necessary over just auto linking things that
look like URLs. Thanks.

—Sam
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Philipp Hörist]

Hi,

you try to do what 0394 does, but your syntax is way more bloated and i
dont see any value added, so why not just use 0394?
ah yes because you seem to think adoption is better if you stuff everything
into one XEP. I disagree, in fact i think it has no effect on adoption at
all.
Implementing "bold" or "italic" in a client is probably 2 hours work,
displaying an audio or video player inside your chat window, ranges
depending on your OS and GUI Framework from many days work to almost
impossible.

For media transfers there is also already SIMS, where is the added value?

I can see that it makes sense to have a place where it is described how
everything is tied together, but this does not have to be a XEP, the XEP is
only the protocol what is put on the wire, if you put everything into one
XEP it does not help a developer in any way to develop a nice looking, good
working GUI. (Thats the actual work)

Parsing the information out of the xml is not the problem, stuffing
everything into references makes it not even 1% easier to implement all
that stuff.

Regards
Philipp
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[Ненахов Андрей]

ср, 27 мар. 2019 г. в 22:15, W. Martin Borgert :

> Quoting Ненахов Андрей :
> > XHTML is deprecated,
>
> This, unfortunately, is the case. I'm not completely
> convinced of the arguements against 0071.
>

If it wasn't, I wouln't be starting this discussion.


> > and all other proposals are not in usable shape.
>
> 0393 is not bad, IMHO. It might need two or three additions,
> esp. hyperlinks, but most typical use cases are covered.
>

One more thing I'll say against 0393. 0071 and  approach both
have means of fallback for legacy clients.
0393's fallback method is "user should pretend that he does not see * and _
symbols"

-- 
Andrew Nenakhov
CEO, Redsolution, Inc.
https://redsolution.com 
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Re: [Standards] One true final way to mark up messages

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Ненахов Андрей :

XHTML is deprecated,


This, unfortunately, is the case. I'm not completely
convinced of the arguements against 0071.


and all other proposals are not in usable shape.


0393 is not bad, IMHO. It might need two or three additions,
esp. hyperlinks, but most typical use cases are covered.

For anything more complex there is 0071. It only needs to be
resurrected. Like Lazarus.

Cheers

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