RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Australia has what is known as HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme) - which is like a student loan , only paid back through extra tax when you start working and in fact is only a fraction of the actual cost of your uni education the rest being funded already by the government - which along with Austudy, the dole and other disfunctional welfare schemes is probably why the tax is so high (Subsidised education is actually quite a good idea IMHO - but only if implemented right (as opposed to 'implemented by the right' ;-))). The interesting thing about HECS is that you only have to start paying it back if your earning over 20k per annum (12k USD) - in Australia. Australia has quite a few unemployed graduates collecting the dole, and large numbers of the more employable graduates heading overseas where tax is lower and HECS isnt collected. Funny that... -Original Message- From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 21:01 To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? No shit! It took me 15 YEARS to pay off my student loans - and I even had scholarships and, at the grad level, 3 teaching fellowships. Mark -Original Message- From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 5:00 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? On Sat, Mar 29,'03 (02:31 PM GMT-0600), Jeff wrote: > probably only you can > make that decision. its a tough one. > Also depends on your financial situation...sucks when you have to take out loans for school. I think I'll be paying back my loans forever:)(Biology major...not even computer science.:) -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
No shit! It took me 15 YEARS to pay off my student loans - and I even had scholarships and, at the grad level, 3 teaching fellowships. Mark -Original Message- From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 5:00 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? On Sat, Mar 29,'03 (02:31 PM GMT-0600), Jeff wrote: > probably only you can > make that decision. its a tough one. > Also depends on your financial situation...sucks when you have to take out loans for school. I think I'll be paying back my loans forever:)(Biology major...not even computer science.:) -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Or you can try what one of my best friends did several years ago. He was a self-taught wizard with no college and could not even get an interview. So I "manufactured" a resume for him awarding him a CS degree from a highly-regarded state university. He waltzed into the next job that came along (a matter of days) and ended up writing Lockheed-Martins health benefits application. For the past 5 years he has been working for a very highly-regarded West Coast firm and is now a departmental VP for software. My experience has been that IT departments and recruiters are much more concerned about proven experience than a degree or certification. The degree only gives them a sense of security, and in over 10 years in the business I have not known a single employer to check the educational credentials of a candidate. It's the technical interview and experience that's important. Moral: Don't let artificial and superficial barriers stand in your way - be creative! Mark -Original Message- From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 3:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? A university degree is important for employers even though you have experience. If nothing else it might be fun to go back to school! David >From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Does a degree matter? >Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:09:11 -0700 > >Hey all, > >I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking >wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and >getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job >market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years >professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was >hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with >anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how >important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying >to give his career a boost. > >Brandon Goodin > > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > _ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Hi Brandon, Just thought I'd give you my 2 cents from the position you may find yourself in the 6 months. I gave up a reasonably promising career in electronics to go "back to school" to study Real-time systems (v.low level programming) at age 31. And although I think all of the advice you have received has been top notch, there are a few things you may want to seriously think about before starting, and this will apply to doing a part-time/night course as well. 1) Your wife (I take it you have one from your original post). You must be sure she is behind you 100% in this. Two other mature students on my course have had some major problems in their relationships through going back. The understanding starts to wear off when you've spent four nights on the trot programming till 2 in the morning, or doing the final touch-ups on a piece of course work. Too many times have I heard the comment, "Well I won't be getting any for a while!!", after a busy night of coding from one or both of them. 2) Your bills. No matter what anyone has said about money, you must remember that if you do go back you will have a lot less no-mater what financial help you get. This may not matter too much if you stay in a company and do the course part-time, but if you do rely on the over-time you can forget that, you wont have the time to do it with the course work. 3) (Part-time/night course) Social life!! You wont have one! I did my electronics qualifications part-time when I worked for HP. You can forget any social activities you do if you expect to get good grades doing it this way. Uni is easier, and you can make a bit of time for the social (read beer drinking) activities, but not much. The lecturers expect better from a mature student, and you will find (like I do) you spend a little more time on your work than the 18-21 year olds. Having said all of that, if you never did the college/university thing when you were younger like me, this is the best time to do it. I took an 85% drop in income to do the degree and have not regretted one second of it. Unfortunately people *do* check for degrees first when employing, no matter the field. It is a shame this happens as I have known people who could run rings around the whole engineering departments who never had a look in for some of the jobs. It may only be a piece of paper, but it's the one that gets you the interview!! And employers can't see you shine, if you ain't sat in front of them. Well, good luck no matter what you choose to do. Just make sure your better half is in the decision making from the start ;-) Cheers Simon - Original Message - From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 8:52 AM Subject: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? > Wow, this has been some incredible insight. I can't thank you enough for > your advice. It has been extremly helpful in helping me to focus my > direction. As always you guys/girls have shown true heart in assisting a > fellow geek. Thanks again! > > Brandon Goodin > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Well computings always been a hobby of mine since I was knee high to a grasshopper, so it was actually quite easy - I already knew C , so C++ wasnt difficult to pick up. The main thing that I found difficult understanding first time were relational database concepts. -Original Message- From: Kwok Peng Tuck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 31 March 2003 11:52 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? Just curious but did you find the transition from Econs to comp sc difficult ? Cause I might do the reverse, comp science to Econs ! >Mine for example is in a different discipline completely (Economics) though >having graduated from that I went straight on to do a grad diploma in >computing so I could actually do something that would get me a job - buts >its been the degree thats counted for more in various applications (jobs, >visas etc...) despite being quite irrelevant to my work. > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Just curious but did you find the transition from Econs to comp sc difficult ? Cause I might do the reverse, comp science to Econs ! Mine for example is in a different discipline completely (Economics) though having graduated from that I went straight on to do a grad diploma in computing so I could actually do something that would get me a job - buts its been the degree thats counted for more in various applications (jobs, visas etc...) despite being quite irrelevant to my work. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
These days Job Applications without degrees tend to get stamped [FRIDAY] and filed appropriately... A degree can help you get a chance at being evaluated as a candidate, though curiously , having a degree that is relevant often seems less important than having a degree. Mine for example is in a different discipline completely (Economics) though having graduated from that I went straight on to do a grad diploma in computing so I could actually do something that would get me a job - buts its been the degree thats counted for more in various applications (jobs, visas etc...) despite being quite irrelevant to my work. Personally I think experience should count for more than education. All the good stuff I know about (Java, Patterns, XP , struts etc...), I learned during my working life... (Mind you 80 to 90 hours of work per week tends to cram a lot more knowledge in than a few hours of occasional lectures interrupting relaxation at the university tavern!) -Original Message- From: Jeff Kyser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 30 March 2003 04:31 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter? Unfortunately, to many who are hiring, the degree is an important screen before further consideration. and in a tough market, where there are many applicants for each job, they can afford to be choosy. I've known many a bright guy who did not have a degree, and their salary always seemed lower that others who might be less competent / productive, but who had degrees. I'm sure there are exceptions, including some spectacular ones, but that's certainly the general trend I've seen. and with defense contracting, where I worked most of my career, many times, labor categories on government procurements were tied to degrees and years of experience, and it was very difficult to even place a non-degreed person on a high dollar position. That being said, is it worth it? Depends - how close would you be to a degree (any prerequisites out of the way yet?). How much can you stand working all day and going to school at night, being away from family? probably only you can make that decision. its a tough one. -jeff On Saturday, March 29, 2003, at 02:09 PM, Brandon Goodin wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am > sucking wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to > school and getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive > in the job market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing > development for 5 years professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years > Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those languages on my own. My > knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of experience. > Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a BA in > Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a > boost. > > Brandon Goodin > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Wow, this has been some incredible insight. I can't thank you enough for your advice. It has been extremly helpful in helping me to focus my direction. As always you guys/girls have shown true heart in assisting a fellow geek. Thanks again! Brandon Goodin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Brandon, What I've been hearing more and more from my friends at larger corporate institutions is that a degree does matter, especially in these difficult times. It is reflected in your pay as well as potential for advancement, let alone employment. It seems to be less important at smaller businesses and academic institutions. This is the perfect time to go back to school if it is economically feasible for you and your family. Another thought is that many employers, especially Universities, will pay for you to take classes. My system admin is working on his B.A. - our boss actively encourages us to pursue higher education. I finished my M.S. while employed here, and my boss gave me some work time to work through my courses. Getting a CS degree at this point in the game may seem redundant to you, but there is a lot you can gain from pursuing a degree. Many non-traditional students excel when they return to school because of their interest in the field as well as the wealth of knowledge they bring with them. Even if you hated high school and traditional classroom environments as many of us did, the experience can be completely different as an adult student. I would look into local universities and colleges and at least check out your options. Best of luck, Becky Norum (BS Biochemistry, MS Information Systems) > >From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Does a degree matter? > >Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:09:11 -0700 > > > >Hey all, > > > >I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking > >wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and > >getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job > >market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years > >professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was > >hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with > >anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how > >important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying > >to give his career a boost. > > > >Brandon Goodin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
On Sat, Mar 29,'03 (02:31 PM GMT-0600), Jeff wrote: > probably only you can > make that decision. its a tough one. > Also depends on your financial situation...sucks when you have to take out loans for school. I think I'll be paying back my loans forever:)(Biology major...not even computer science.:) -- Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
Unfortunately, to many who are hiring, the degree is an important screen before further consideration. and in a tough market, where there are many applicants for each job, they can afford to be choosy. I've known many a bright guy who did not have a degree, and their salary always seemed lower that others who might be less competent / productive, but who had degrees. I'm sure there are exceptions, including some spectacular ones, but that's certainly the general trend I've seen. and with defense contracting, where I worked most of my career, many times, labor categories on government procurements were tied to degrees and years of experience, and it was very difficult to even place a non-degreed person on a high dollar position. That being said, is it worth it? Depends - how close would you be to a degree (any prerequisites out of the way yet?). How much can you stand working all day and going to school at night, being away from family? probably only you can make that decision. its a tough one. -jeff On Saturday, March 29, 2003, at 02:09 PM, Brandon Goodin wrote: Hey all, I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a > boost. Brandon Goodin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: Does a degree matter?
A university degree is important for employers even though you have experience. If nothing else it might be fun to go back to school! David From: "Brandon Goodin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Does a degree matter? Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:09:11 -0700 Hey all, I'm trying to make a decision as to what I am going to do. I am sucking wind on profitable work. So, I was thinking about going to school and getting a BA in Comp Science to make myself more attractive in the job market. Is it really worth doing? I've been doing development for 5 years professionaly. 2 years Perl and ASP, 3 years Java. Prior to that I was hobbying in those languages on my own. My knowledge is competitive with anyone else in my realm of experience. Anyways, I was just wondering how important you all think a BA in Computer Science is for a family man trying to give his career a boost. Brandon Goodin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
