Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
Another problem I've seen that occurs using Netscape 4.7x (and possibly later versions as well) but does NOT occur using IE: Netscape, while waiting for a server response, does a busy wait. So if you are doing development on a box running both the web/app server and the browser, Netscape will use up 1/2 the clock cycles waiting for the server to respond. I've seen this on *nix and Windows boxes. -- Steve Stair - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
Who said anything about IE only? I develop all my apps to the xhtml 1.0 spec as closely as possible. Like magic, they work in all the major browsers :-). David From: "scarter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 12:22:24 -0500 Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of developing to IE only. We're deploying a struts app to a pretty broad audience, about 20% of which still prefer Netscape 4.x. The problems I think we're having relate to the way Tiles were implemented by one of our developers. He had very complex table nesting, which we're working to clean up right now. We've already cut the render time in half, but its still pretty slow. -Original Message- From: Raible, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:36 PM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > >You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO > Netscape 4.x should > >be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. > I agree - you don't support IE 3.0 do you? It was released at the same time as the first Netscape 4 version. You'll save yourself countless hours of development time by developing for modern browsers. DOM Support + CSS makes life s much easier IMO. Matt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of developing to IE only. We're deploying a struts app to a pretty broad audience, about 20% of which still prefer Netscape 4.x. The problems I think we're having relate to the way Tiles were implemented by one of our developers. He had very complex table nesting, which we're working to clean up right now. We've already cut the render time in half, but its still pretty slow. -Original Message- From: Raible, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:36 PM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > >You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO > Netscape 4.x should > >be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. > I agree - you don't support IE 3.0 do you? It was released at the same time as the first Netscape 4 version. You'll save yourself countless hours of development time by developing for modern browsers. DOM Support + CSS makes life s much easier IMO. Matt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
This time I agree. :) Regards, PQ "This Guy Thinks He Knows Everything" "This Guy Thinks He Knows What He Is Doing" -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 25, 2003 5:47 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:33:50 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > I have to disagree with Craig on the issue of banishing ns4. We are all > working on a *nix box. There are not many choices besides mozilla or ns. > Mozilla 1.2.1 kicks butt on Linux for me, including better performance than Netscape on basically every website and webapp I access with it. In addition to the incremental rendering of nested tables (which improves *perceived* performance even if it didn't change the total amount of time requird), it's just faster at rendering everything than 4.7 was. If you need to stick with the brand name to satisfy pointy-haired bosses, Netscape 7 is based on the same rendering engine (Gecko) as Mozilla, so it shares the improved performance and standards conformance (although it's based on Mozilla 1.0 code rather than 1.1). > Regards, > > > PQ Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
Unfortunately, sometimes people are stuck using whatever their sys admins install. I can install latest versions on my own box, but if working on one of our departmental machines, I'm stuck with NS4.7 for now. Also, depending upon your target audience - much of the world and even the US uses what we consider outdated computers and network connections. Trying to access even yahoo mail while in India several years ago was obscenely slow. I still have clients who stubbornly cling to lynx and mutter at me when I suggest they try a graphical web browser. =) Becky On Tue, 2003-02-25 at 17:48, David Graham wrote: > Then use mozilla. It's up to date with the standards, Netscape isn't. > > David > > > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > >Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:33:50 -0500 > > > >I have to disagree with Craig on the issue of banishing ns4. We are all > >working on a *nix box. There are not many choices besides mozilla or ns. > > > >Regards, > > > > > >PQ > > > >"This Guy Thinks He Knows Everything" > >"This Guy Thinks He Knows What He Is Doing" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
Then use mozilla. It's up to date with the standards, Netscape isn't. David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:33:50 -0500 I have to disagree with Craig on the issue of banishing ns4. We are all working on a *nix box. There are not many choices besides mozilla or ns. Regards, PQ "This Guy Thinks He Knows Everything" "This Guy Thinks He Knows What He Is Doing" -Original Message- From: Vinh Tran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 25, 2003 5:33 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems I have to believe your issue is with nested tables and not Struts. Are you experiencing performance problems with only pages containing nested tables? The issue with nested tables has been fixed in Netscape 7. Try this browser to see if the performance issues go away. Vinh -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:02 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, scarter wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:09:53 -0500 > From: scarter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > Several months ago there was a discussion in this list about poor > performance of Struts applications when using Netscape 4.7x as a > browser. I've been developing in Netscape for quite a few years now and > I don't think I've ever seen a more obvious difference between the > performance of IE and Netscape. I have other applications that are not > based on Struts that perform much better, so the obvious thing is that > this problem has to be related to Struts somehow, although its not clear > how. > This could also be an artifact of the servlet container you are running. For example, the peformance difference from running JSP pages with lots of custom tags (i.e. your typical Struts-based app) on current Tomcat 4.1.x releases, versus older ones, is nothing short of amazing due to improvements in the JSP page compiler. But these issues would cause visible performance differences for all browsers, not just Netscape 4.7.x. > Has anyone determined what causes this problem and how to resolve it? > I'm aware that Netscape has a difficult time rendering nested tables, > which we have minimized, however, other than use of Struts taglibs, > there are no differences between the pages I am using now and the ones I > have that do not use Struts, except that the non-struts ones perform > much better in Netscape. > You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO Netscape 4.x should be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. Besides the performance related issues you allude to (which a server side framework can't really do anything about), 4.x support for CSS and JavaScript is pretty hideous. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Scott Carter > Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:33:50 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > I have to disagree with Craig on the issue of banishing ns4. We are all > working on a *nix box. There are not many choices besides mozilla or ns. > Mozilla 1.2.1 kicks butt on Linux for me, including better performance than Netscape on basically every website and webapp I access with it. In addition to the incremental rendering of nested tables (which improves *perceived* performance even if it didn't change the total amount of time requird), it's just faster at rendering everything than 4.7 was. If you need to stick with the brand name to satisfy pointy-haired bosses, Netscape 7 is based on the same rendering engine (Gecko) as Mozilla, so it shares the improved performance and standards conformance (although it's based on Mozilla 1.0 code rather than 1.1). > Regards, > > > PQ Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
Is the latest Netscape version supported on *nix, 4.x??? I'm not positive of the answer, but I doubt it. I never develop anything with Netscape 4.x in mind anymore a huge waste of time... not to mention the headaches. Sometimes you just gotta let go :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I have to disagree with Craig on the issue of banishing ns4. We are all working on a *nix box. There are not many choices besides mozilla or ns. Regards, PQ "This Guy Thinks He Knows Everything" "This Guy Thinks He Knows What He Is Doing" -Original Message- From: Vinh Tran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 25, 2003 5:33 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems I have to believe your issue is with nested tables and not Struts. Are you experiencing performance problems with only pages containing nested tables? The issue with nested tables has been fixed in Netscape 7. Try this browser to see if the performance issues go away. Vinh -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:02 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, scarter wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:09:53 -0500 > From: scarter > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > Several months ago there was a discussion in this list about poor > performance of Struts applications when using Netscape 4.7x as a > browser. I've been developing in Netscape for quite a few years now and > I don't think I've ever seen a more obvious difference between the > performance of IE and Netscape. I have other applications that are not > based on Struts that perform much better, so the obvious thing is that > this problem has to be related to Struts somehow, although its not clear > how. > This could also be an artifact of the servlet container you are running. For example, the peformance difference from running JSP pages with lots of custom tags (i.e. your typical Struts-based app) on current Tomcat 4.1.x releases, versus older ones, is nothing short of amazing due to improvements in the JSP page compiler. But these issues would cause visible performance differences for all browsers, not just Netscape 4.7.x. > Has anyone determined what causes this problem and how to resolve it? > I'm aware that Netscape has a difficult time rendering nested tables, > which we have minimized, however, other than use of Struts taglibs, > there are no differences between the pages I am using now and the ones I > have that do not use Struts, except that the non-struts ones perform > much better in Netscape. > You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO Netscape 4.x should be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. Besides the performance related issues you allude to (which a server side framework can't really do anything about), 4.x support for CSS and JavaScript is pretty hideous. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Scott Carter > Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
I have to disagree with Craig on the issue of banishing ns4. We are all working on a *nix box. There are not many choices besides mozilla or ns. Regards, PQ "This Guy Thinks He Knows Everything" "This Guy Thinks He Knows What He Is Doing" -Original Message- From: Vinh Tran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 25, 2003 5:33 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems I have to believe your issue is with nested tables and not Struts. Are you experiencing performance problems with only pages containing nested tables? The issue with nested tables has been fixed in Netscape 7. Try this browser to see if the performance issues go away. Vinh -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:02 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, scarter wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:09:53 -0500 > From: scarter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > Several months ago there was a discussion in this list about poor > performance of Struts applications when using Netscape 4.7x as a > browser. I've been developing in Netscape for quite a few years now and > I don't think I've ever seen a more obvious difference between the > performance of IE and Netscape. I have other applications that are not > based on Struts that perform much better, so the obvious thing is that > this problem has to be related to Struts somehow, although its not clear > how. > This could also be an artifact of the servlet container you are running. For example, the peformance difference from running JSP pages with lots of custom tags (i.e. your typical Struts-based app) on current Tomcat 4.1.x releases, versus older ones, is nothing short of amazing due to improvements in the JSP page compiler. But these issues would cause visible performance differences for all browsers, not just Netscape 4.7.x. > Has anyone determined what causes this problem and how to resolve it? > I'm aware that Netscape has a difficult time rendering nested tables, > which we have minimized, however, other than use of Struts taglibs, > there are no differences between the pages I am using now and the ones I > have that do not use Struts, except that the non-struts ones perform > much better in Netscape. > You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO Netscape 4.x should be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. Besides the performance related issues you allude to (which a server side framework can't really do anything about), 4.x support for CSS and JavaScript is pretty hideous. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Scott Carter > Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
> > >You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO > Netscape 4.x should > >be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. > I agree - you don't support IE 3.0 do you? It was released at the same time as the first Netscape 4 version. You'll save yourself countless hours of development time by developing for modern browsers. DOM Support + CSS makes life s much easier IMO. Matt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
I have to believe your issue is with nested tables and not Struts. Are you experiencing performance problems with only pages containing nested tables? The issue with nested tables has been fixed in Netscape 7. Try this browser to see if the performance issues go away. Vinh -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 5:02 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, scarter wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:09:53 -0500 > From: scarter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > Several months ago there was a discussion in this list about poor > performance of Struts applications when using Netscape 4.7x as a > browser. I've been developing in Netscape for quite a few years now and > I don't think I've ever seen a more obvious difference between the > performance of IE and Netscape. I have other applications that are not > based on Struts that perform much better, so the obvious thing is that > this problem has to be related to Struts somehow, although its not clear > how. > This could also be an artifact of the servlet container you are running. For example, the peformance difference from running JSP pages with lots of custom tags (i.e. your typical Struts-based app) on current Tomcat 4.1.x releases, versus older ones, is nothing short of amazing due to improvements in the JSP page compiler. But these issues would cause visible performance differences for all browsers, not just Netscape 4.7.x. > Has anyone determined what causes this problem and how to resolve it? > I'm aware that Netscape has a difficult time rendering nested tables, > which we have minimized, however, other than use of Struts taglibs, > there are no differences between the pages I am using now and the ones I > have that do not use Struts, except that the non-struts ones perform > much better in Netscape. > You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO Netscape 4.x should be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. Besides the performance related issues you allude to (which a server side framework can't really do anything about), 4.x support for CSS and JavaScript is pretty hideous. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Scott Carter > Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO Netscape 4.x should be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. +1 _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, scarter wrote: > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:09:53 -0500 > From: scarter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Netscape 4.7x and Struts performance problems > > Several months ago there was a discussion in this list about poor > performance of Struts applications when using Netscape 4.7x as a > browser. I've been developing in Netscape for quite a few years now and > I don't think I've ever seen a more obvious difference between the > performance of IE and Netscape. I have other applications that are not > based on Struts that perform much better, so the obvious thing is that > this problem has to be related to Struts somehow, although its not clear > how. > This could also be an artifact of the servlet container you are running. For example, the peformance difference from running JSP pages with lots of custom tags (i.e. your typical Struts-based app) on current Tomcat 4.1.x releases, versus older ones, is nothing short of amazing due to improvements in the JSP page compiler. But these issues would cause visible performance differences for all browsers, not just Netscape 4.7.x. > Has anyone determined what causes this problem and how to resolve it? > I'm aware that Netscape has a difficult time rendering nested tables, > which we have minimized, however, other than use of Struts taglibs, > there are no differences between the pages I am using now and the ones I > have that do not use Struts, except that the non-struts ones perform > much better in Netscape. > You're probably not going to like my advice, but IMHO Netscape 4.x should be banished from the list of browsers supported by modern webapps. Besides the performance related issues you allude to (which a server side framework can't really do anything about), 4.x support for CSS and JavaScript is pretty hideous. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Scott Carter > Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
