Re: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Kevin . Bedell 


To add to Ted's thoughts -

Struts is now going to be distributed directly with Tomcat (the servlet/jsp
reference implementation) as part of it management application. This
essentially guarantees it to be the most widely distributed web application
framework.

If you get a copy of "Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey Moore (
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0066620023/qid=1024436358/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-9680446-6979158

) and read it - it outlines the classic adoption patterns for new
technologies and new technology products. One of the critical stages he
identifies in the adoption of new technology is the point at which a market
leader is chosen by consumers.

Struts (and Java Frameworks as well) is absolutely following the path he
lays out and it is emerging as the market leader. In the next year or so
we'll see a number of fringe framework projects either falling off or
merging with each other and Struts will be the dominant framework - if not
the dominant approach to web application development within J2EE.

my 2 cents

Kevin




Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06/18/2002 05:22:20 PM

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Subject:  Re: Who's using Struts and license issue


You just need to include the Apache License

http://apache.org/LICENSE

along with any of your own copyrights, disclaimers, or licensing
notices. Or, if you don't do any of that, in a file next to to the JARs.

What's going on, is that when you credit yourself, Apache wants to be
credited too.

Just saying that it is "Powered by Struts" really would not be
sufficient, though that is always a welcome touch.

Since Struts is open source, and people don't need to register to use
it, any advice about who is using it is going to be anecdotal.

Besides the many others you will see posted on the list, in the
Rochester area I happen to know its being used by firms like Xerox,
Kodak, and Paychex. AFAIK, these are all intranet applications, like the
one you anticipate

I very much doubt that there is another framework with better market
penetration that Struts. (Or that will have more books about it ship
sometime this year =:0)

Something to mention to the suits is that our esteemed leader, Craig
McClanahan, was not only the primary architect of Tomcat 4 and the
implementation architect of the Java Web Services Developer Pack, but he
is now Sun's specification lead for JavaServer Faces (JSR-127) as well
as the Web Layer Architect for the J2EE platform.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty comfortable with having
Craig on my development team =;O)

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Java Web Development with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services


Scott Carlson wrote:
>
> I'm trying to get a Fortune 125 company to convert from their existing
internal
> web framework.  During my analysis two questions have come up.
>
> First, Who's using Struts?  Is there a list of big companies that are
using
> Struts in a production external application mode?  Does anyone have
metrics on
> that?
>
> Second,  The license.  Clause 3 says that you must give credit to
> Apache/Struts.  It looks like a "Powered by Struts" is sufficient.  Does
this
> apply as well for intranet applications?   For Internet applications,
does this
> need to be on each page of the application, or just the first page of
each app?
>  Does it have to be visible to the user, or can it just be in the
comments of
> the code?
>
> Personally, I've got no problems with Struts or plastering "powered by
Struts"
> on every page.  The more I use it, the better I like it.  However, this
is an
> old Brick and Mortar company.  They are stuck in their old ways, and they
> aren't liking some of my answers so far.
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
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Re: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Ted Husted 

You just need to include the Apache License 

http://apache.org/LICENSE

along with any of your own copyrights, disclaimers, or licensing
notices. Or, if you don't do any of that, in a file next to to the JARs.

What's going on, is that when you credit yourself, Apache wants to be
credited too. 

Just saying that it is "Powered by Struts" really would not be
sufficient, though that is always a welcome touch. 

Since Struts is open source, and people don't need to register to use
it, any advice about who is using it is going to be anecdotal.

Besides the many others you will see posted on the list, in the
Rochester area I happen to know its being used by firms like Xerox,
Kodak, and Paychex. AFAIK, these are all intranet applications, like the
one you anticipate

I very much doubt that there is another framework with better market
penetration that Struts. (Or that will have more books about it ship
sometime this year =:0)

Something to mention to the suits is that our esteemed leader, Craig
McClanahan, was not only the primary architect of Tomcat 4 and the
implementation architect of the Java Web Services Developer Pack, but he
is now Sun's specification lead for JavaServer Faces (JSR-127) as well
as the Web Layer Architect for the J2EE platform.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty comfortable with having
Craig on my development team =;O)

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Java Web Development with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services


Scott Carlson wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to get a Fortune 125 company to convert from their existing internal
> web framework.  During my analysis two questions have come up.
> 
> First, Who's using Struts?  Is there a list of big companies that are using
> Struts in a production external application mode?  Does anyone have metrics on
> that?
> 
> Second,  The license.  Clause 3 says that you must give credit to
> Apache/Struts.  It looks like a "Powered by Struts" is sufficient.  Does this
> apply as well for intranet applications?   For Internet applications, does this
> need to be on each page of the application, or just the first page of each app?
>  Does it have to be visible to the user, or can it just be in the comments of
> the code?
> 
> Personally, I've got no problems with Struts or plastering "powered by Struts"
> on every page.  The more I use it, the better I like it.  However, this is an
> old Brick and Mortar company.  They are stuck in their old ways, and they
> aren't liking some of my answers so far.
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

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RE: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Brad_Horstkotte 


>From the apache license:

"
* 3. The end-user documentation included with the redistribution, if
 *any, must include the following acknowlegement:
 *   "This product includes software developed by the
 *Apache Software Foundation (http://www.apache.org/)."
 *Alternately, this acknowlegement may appear in the software itself,
 *if and wherever such third-party acknowlegements normally appear.
"

For most web sites, there is no redistribution or source or binaries, and
no end-user documentation,
so for an internet site, it doesn't seem to me to be an issue.

Brad



   
   
"Tero P
   
Paananen"To: "Struts Users Mailing List" 
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]   cc: (bcc: Brad Horstkotte/AFS/CAPITAL)
   
        >        Subject: RE: Who's using Struts and 
license issue
   
   
06/18/2002 
   
02:02 PM   
   
Please respond 
   
to "Struts 
   
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> Personally, I've got no problems with Struts or plastering
> "powered by Struts" on every page.

I would, if I were in charge of brand management/marketing.

Does the Struts license allow putting that sentence in
a meta tag (bad) or as an HTML comment (good), so that
it's invisible to the regular user?

  -TPP

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Re: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Kevin . Bedell 


The License issue you're describing only applies if you are redistributing
the software - that is if you distribute the software to some other entity
and THEY install it. If this is the case, any docs (or the code you give
them) must include an acknowledgement.

 *
 * 3. The end-user documentation included with the redistribution, if
 *any, must include the following acknowlegement:
 *   "This product includes software developed by the
 *Apache Software Foundation (http://www.apache.org/)."
 *Alternately, this acknowlegement may appear in the software itself,
 *if and wherever such third-party acknowlegements normally appear.
 *

Note the phrase "included with the redistribution".


Of the 5 clauses in the license
, the first three have to do with redistributing the code and the last two
have to do with products you deliver that include the code.

If you're using the software on your site, then no acknowledgements are
required - though it would be nice...

This is the standard apache license. It's the same as the one used for the
web server - and the 50%+ sites on the Internet that use the Apache web
server don't all have acknowledgements...







Scott Carlson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 06/18/2002 04:47:38 PM

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To:   Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Kevin Bedell/Systems/USHO/SunLife)
Subject:  Who's using Struts and license issue


I'm trying to get a Fortune 125 company to convert from their existing
internal
web framework.  During my analysis two questions have come up.

First, Who's using Struts?  Is there a list of big companies that are using
Struts in a production external application mode?  Does anyone have metrics
on
that?

Second,  The license.  Clause 3 says that you must give credit to
Apache/Struts.  It looks like a "Powered by Struts" is sufficient.  Does
this
apply as well for intranet applications?   For Internet applications, does
this
need to be on each page of the application, or just the first page of each
app?
 Does it have to be visible to the user, or can it just be in the comments
of
the code?

Personally, I've got no problems with Struts or plastering "powered by
Struts"
on every page.  The more I use it, the better I like it.  However, this is
an
old Brick and Mortar company.  They are stuck in their old ways, and they
aren't liking some of my answers so far.

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

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RE: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Tero P Paananen 

> Personally, I've got no problems with Struts or plastering 
> "powered by Struts" on every page.

I would, if I were in charge of brand management/marketing.

Does the Struts license allow putting that sentence in
a meta tag (bad) or as an HTML comment (good), so that
it's invisible to the regular user?

-TPP

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Re: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Cliff Rowley 

Dan Cancro wrote:
> Here are some users that I've seen mentioned on the mailing list: 
> 
> Fannie Mae, Shell, Deutsche Bank, IBM, Sun, HP, Hallmark, Pizza Hut, Daimler
> Chrysler, Capital One.
> 
> -Dan

What about the licensing issues?  I'd be quite interested to hear 
comments on those.


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RE: Who's using Struts and license issue

2002-06-18 Thread Dan Cancro 

Here are some users that I've seen mentioned on the mailing list: 

Fannie Mae, Shell, Deutsche Bank, IBM, Sun, HP, Hallmark, Pizza Hut, Daimler
Chrysler, Capital One.

-Dan

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Carlson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:48 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Who's using Struts and license issue
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get a Fortune 125 company to convert from their 
> existing internal
> web framework.  During my analysis two questions have come up.
> 
> First, Who's using Struts?  Is there a list of big companies 
> that are using
> Struts in a production external application mode?  Does 
> anyone have metrics on
> that?
> 
> Second,  The license.  Clause 3 says that you must give credit to
> Apache/Struts.  It looks like a "Powered by Struts" is 
> sufficient.  Does this
> apply as well for intranet applications?   For Internet 
> applications, does this
> need to be on each page of the application, or just the first 
> page of each app?
>  Does it have to be visible to the user, or can it just be in 
> the comments of
> the code?  
> 
> Personally, I've got no problems with Struts or plastering 
> "powered by Struts"
> on every page.  The more I use it, the better I like it.  
> However, this is an
> old Brick and Mortar company.  They are stuck in their old 
> ways, and they
> aren't liking some of my answers so far.
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

For additional commands, e-mail:


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