Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:40:13 +1000 > From: qu...@laptop.org > To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 02:08:03AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > > I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to > > learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming > > language, does not have too much sense. > > I couldn't read what Flavio said, but I agree that having to learn a > foreign language before learning programming does increase the cost of > learning considerably, to the point that the learning may not occur. > > This is one of the reasons why some learning areas are difficult. But > knowledge of the implementation language can assist greatly. > > Know Latin, can learn medicine terminology more quickly. > > Know Italian, can learn opera or music terminology more quickly. Know English, can learn programming more quickly. > > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 02:08:03AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to > learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming > language, does not have too much sense. I couldn't read what Flavio said, but I agree that having to learn a foreign language before learning programming does increase the cost of learning considerably, to the point that the learning may not occur. This is one of the reasons why some learning areas are difficult. But knowledge of the implementation language can assist greatly. Know Latin, can learn medicine terminology more quickly. Know Italian, can learn opera or music terminology more quickly. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Mon, 9/24/12, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: From: Gonzalo Odiard Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 To: "Flavio Danesse" Cc: "Kevin Mark" , sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org, "James Cameron" , "S. Daniel Francis" Date: Monday, September 24, 2012, 1:08 AM Flavio,Estoy de acuerdo que para enseñar programación, agregar la problemática de comprender otro idioma a la de comprender el lenguaje de programación en si, no tiene demasiado sentido.Lo que si creo que tiene sentido, y esto tu y yo lo hemos hablado varias veces, pero como has dado tu punto de vista, voy a dar el mio, es que usemos un lenguaje comun para tratar de compartir esfuerzos y no multiplicar el trabajo. Imaginate lo que pasaría si la gente de Nepal, de Rwanda, latino america, y ahora las islas Fiji, cada uno tuviera que hacer su reproductor de videos y audio, su actividad para sacar fotos, etc. El costo en esfuerzo y tiempo que se invierte es altísimo. En la práctica es mas alto del que podemos afrontar como comunidad, porque aun no hemos logrado todo lo que nos proponemos.Entonces, esta barbaro usar los lenguajes locales para enseñar y aprender, algunos miembros de esas comunidades y algunos proyectos creceran hasta poder compartirse y alli es mejor contar con un idioma comun. Hoy es el ingles, en cien años, veremos. - I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming language, does not have too much sense. But have sense (and we talked about this a few times, but you have your point, and I have my point too) use a common language to share efforts and avoid multiply the job. Imagine if people from Nepal, Rwanda, Latin America, and now Fiji, need create his own video player, record activity, etc. The cost in time and effort is too high. In fact, is higher than the effort we can do as a community, because we haven't reach all what we want.Then, is ok use local language to teach and learn, some of the community members and some projects will grow up until be shared and then is better use a common language. Today is english, in 100 years, will see. Gonzalo I think a certain comparison comes to mind from learning about Debian-edu/OLPC. There are tools you use to learn learing and learn skills and tools you use to do work. To learn programming, you should use what is easiest and useful to do it (like python and Spanish comments), but when you are going to collaborate with many non-English people, then you turn to the common language, English.___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hola Flavio, I think you gave many excellent reasons for using Spanish, which is what i was saying. So I agree. I was recalling something about the OLPC project in Haiti. They have 2 'officlal' languages: Kreyol and French. 99% of the country learns Kreyol but the upper class/government know French. So the kids learn French for some reason in their early years along with Kreyol and I was confused by this. Why learn something that they will use very little and confuse learning while trying to learn it in a little used language, French. That may not be 100% correct, so any correction welcome. So I understand the idea of having kids try to learn Python and English at the same time as being difficult and not always useful.-K___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Flavio, Estoy de acuerdo que para enseñar programación, agregar la problemática de comprender otro idioma a la de comprender el lenguaje de programación en si, no tiene demasiado sentido. Lo que si creo que tiene sentido, y esto tu y yo lo hemos hablado varias veces, pero como has dado tu punto de vista, voy a dar el mio, es que usemos un lenguaje comun para tratar de compartir esfuerzos y no multiplicar el trabajo. Imaginate lo que pasaría si la gente de Nepal, de Rwanda, latino america, y ahora las islas Fiji, cada uno tuviera que hacer su reproductor de videos y audio, su actividad para sacar fotos, etc. El costo en esfuerzo y tiempo que se invierte es altísimo. En la práctica es mas alto del que podemos afrontar como comunidad, porque aun no hemos logrado todo lo que nos proponemos. Entonces, esta barbaro usar los lenguajes locales para enseñar y aprender, algunos miembros de esas comunidades y algunos proyectos creceran hasta poder compartirse y alli es mejor contar con un idioma comun. Hoy es el ingles, en cien años, veremos. - I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming language, does not have too much sense. But have sense (and we talked about this a few times, but you have your point, and I have my point too) use a common language to share efforts and avoid multiply the job. Imagine if people from Nepal, Rwanda, Latin America, and now Fiji, need create his own video player, record activity, etc. The cost in time and effort is too high. In fact, is higher than the effort we can do as a community, because we haven't reach all what we want. Then, is ok use local language to teach and learn, some of the community members and some projects will grow up until be shared and then is better use a common language. Today is english, in 100 years, will see. Gonzalo 2012/9/23 Flavio Danesse > El tema del idioma, tiene muchas aristas, (desde mi punto de vista), pero > en lo que refiere específicamente a enseñar a programar a los niños y > adolescentes, la cuestión está en que aprender un lenguaje de programación > es en si, aprender otro idioma, lo cual ya de por si es difícil para > cualquiera. > > Cuando trabajas con niños y jóvenes que a veces, ni siquiera conocen bien > su propio lenguaje materno, y mucho menos el inglés, debes facilitarle el > aprendizaje del lenguaje que intentas enseñar, que en este caso es python, > no inglés. > > Al esfuerzo de aprender python, no puedes agregarle el de aprender inglés > que en este caso sería un aprendizaje previo, lo cual termina por aburrir y > frustrar a aquellos que lo que desean en realidad es programar. > > Obviamente, hasta cierto punto, quien intenta programar termina > aprendiendo algo de inglés, casi sin darse cuenta, lo cual es bueno, pero > no es el objetivo de enseñar a programar en python. > > Tampoco es cierto que para programar se necesite saber inglés, yo soy la > prueba de ello. > Yo no puedo siquiera escribir una frase en inglés, mucho menos hablarlo, y > si escucho a alguien hablando inglés, dificilmente le entienda la mitad de > lo que dice, sin embargo, entiendo casi todo lo que leo en inglés y luego, > lo que no entiendo lo traduzco con google. > > Obviamente, para programar en python, cuando tengo que hacer cosas > complejas, se me complica bastante por el idioma, pero para las cosas que > yo deseo hacer con python, mis conocimientos de inglés son suficientes. > > De modo que yo, a mis alumnos, trato de enseñarles python, solucionándoles > lo mejor que puedo el tema del inglés, luego, ellos, verán que es necesario > aprender inglés para superarse, pero tienen toda la vida por delante para > solucionarlo. > > Mientras tanto, todas mis aplicaciones van con variables y comentarios en > español, porque sé que ellos las leen y las hackean a medida que aprenden o > tratan de aprender cosas nuevas sobre python. > > Además, de todo eso, siendo que soy de habla hispana, ¿por qué habría de > escribir en otro idioma?. > ¿Para que me entiendan otros que no hablan español?, y ¿por qué, si yo > para entenderles a ellos tengo que traducir con google?. > > Por un tema de desarrollo colaborativo tampoco puede ser, porque en 4 años > nadie a aportado una sola línea de código a mis aplicaciones, mientras que > yo he portado, mejorado, expandido y hasta reescrito muchas aplicaciones de > terceros, y, las veces que alguien me dio una mano con algo fue en forma de > ideas o conceptos y, o bien fue en español (generalmente han sido comañeros > de CeibalJAM), o bien tuve que traducirlo con google. > > Qué no se entienda esto último como un reproche ni nada parecido, > simplemente trato de ilustrar mis motivos para utilizar lo menos posible el > inglés en mis aplicaciones. Simplemente no encuentro motivos por los cuales > no utilizar español, mientras que encuentro fuertes motivos para no > utilizar inglés. > > Pero sin lugar a dudas, el tema del idioma es fundamental en
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
El tema del idioma, tiene muchas aristas, (desde mi punto de vista), pero en lo que refiere específicamente a enseñar a programar a los niños y adolescentes, la cuestión está en que aprender un lenguaje de programación es en si, aprender otro idioma, lo cual ya de por si es difícil para cualquiera. Cuando trabajas con niños y jóvenes que a veces, ni siquiera conocen bien su propio lenguaje materno, y mucho menos el inglés, debes facilitarle el aprendizaje del lenguaje que intentas enseñar, que en este caso es python, no inglés. Al esfuerzo de aprender python, no puedes agregarle el de aprender inglés que en este caso sería un aprendizaje previo, lo cual termina por aburrir y frustrar a aquellos que lo que desean en realidad es programar. Obviamente, hasta cierto punto, quien intenta programar termina aprendiendo algo de inglés, casi sin darse cuenta, lo cual es bueno, pero no es el objetivo de enseñar a programar en python. Tampoco es cierto que para programar se necesite saber inglés, yo soy la prueba de ello. Yo no puedo siquiera escribir una frase en inglés, mucho menos hablarlo, y si escucho a alguien hablando inglés, dificilmente le entienda la mitad de lo que dice, sin embargo, entiendo casi todo lo que leo en inglés y luego, lo que no entiendo lo traduzco con google. Obviamente, para programar en python, cuando tengo que hacer cosas complejas, se me complica bastante por el idioma, pero para las cosas que yo deseo hacer con python, mis conocimientos de inglés son suficientes. De modo que yo, a mis alumnos, trato de enseñarles python, solucionándoles lo mejor que puedo el tema del inglés, luego, ellos, verán que es necesario aprender inglés para superarse, pero tienen toda la vida por delante para solucionarlo. Mientras tanto, todas mis aplicaciones van con variables y comentarios en español, porque sé que ellos las leen y las hackean a medida que aprenden o tratan de aprender cosas nuevas sobre python. Además, de todo eso, siendo que soy de habla hispana, ¿por qué habría de escribir en otro idioma?. ¿Para que me entiendan otros que no hablan español?, y ¿por qué, si yo para entenderles a ellos tengo que traducir con google?. Por un tema de desarrollo colaborativo tampoco puede ser, porque en 4 años nadie a aportado una sola línea de código a mis aplicaciones, mientras que yo he portado, mejorado, expandido y hasta reescrito muchas aplicaciones de terceros, y, las veces que alguien me dio una mano con algo fue en forma de ideas o conceptos y, o bien fue en español (generalmente han sido comañeros de CeibalJAM), o bien tuve que traducirlo con google. Qué no se entienda esto último como un reproche ni nada parecido, simplemente trato de ilustrar mis motivos para utilizar lo menos posible el inglés en mis aplicaciones. Simplemente no encuentro motivos por los cuales no utilizar español, mientras que encuentro fuertes motivos para no utilizar inglés. Pero sin lugar a dudas, el tema del idioma es fundamental en la comunidad de sugar. Quienes no podemos sostener una charla en inglés, directamente no participamos de las discusiones. Es también un motivo por el cual los docentes, en general, no se acercan a la comunidad. Todos sabemos el poco conocimiento y manejo informático que tienen los docentes (de américa latina al menos), en general, no podemos pensar que hablen inglés y por ende, al momento de escribir una wiki por ejemplo, debemos hacerlo en español, no en inglés. Lo que pasa es que la comunidad de sugarlabs se ha ido conviertiendo en una comunidad casi exclusivamente de desarrolladores y desde mi punto de vista, cada vez, se convierte más en eso, no hay mucho espacio para los docentes, ni mecanismos de participación real y efectiva para ellos, a menos que hablen inglés. <= esto si es un reproche :) Bueno, pero en definitiva, supongo que debe ser tan complicado traducir del español al inglés como del inglés al español. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Sun, 9/23/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > From: S. Daniel Francis > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > To: "James Cameron" > Cc: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 9:24 PM > 2012/9/23 James Cameron : > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 09:14:41PM -0300, S. Daniel > Francis wrote: > >> 2012/9/23 James Cameron : > >> > It is irritating that we still store source > code in linear text files > >> > without built-in internationalisation. > >> > As you change these names, they become far > less useful to programmers > >> > who use that language. > >> > > >> > The development system would be more open and > inclusive if there was a > >> > way to keep variable names, and other text, in > multiple languages. > >> > >> It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and > then there are > >> needed translators, our translators cant translate > source code... > > > > True, only bilingual programmers could translate source > code ... and > > that was what I was suggesting. I doubt our > string translators, or > > their infrastructure, could be any help > whatsoever. It is a totally > > different problem. > > > > But I don't think it is impossible for bilingual > programmers to > > collaborate in this way. Merely difficult. > > There are many reasons for don't translate source code. > Here two: > - Other languages have non-ascii characters, and variable > names can't > be written with those characters. Some language (might be Perl or Python) are moving to make variables Unicode (UTF-8), so it will be allowed in the future. > - Python is very similar to the natural language, but in > other > languages, where the order to use the words is different, > the code > leases concordance. Yes, I can see a direct translation would be a problem, but in most case, the people I knew just made a shortened version or shorthand of the full name. I didn't mean to disrupt the conversation, as I know most 'real' programmers will eventually use English. But the idea of kids learning python with Spanish variable names and comments as part of a hacking community to learn, I think is something to consider. When they go to High School or College, they will have learned more English, I assume, and they can change to English (if they program in a Company that uses that) -Kev ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Now I know, I should stop reading this thread :) Gonzalo On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, James Cameron wrote: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > > Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables > > had Portuguese names. > > Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. > > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > without built-in internationalisation. > > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > who use that language. > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. > > I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor > application support. > > In the meanwhile, the source code moves slowly to the common language > of the most frequent change directors. As it happens to be my > language, I find it hard to object. ;-) > > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 James Cameron : > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 09:14:41PM -0300, S. Daniel Francis wrote: >> 2012/9/23 James Cameron : >> > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files >> > without built-in internationalisation. >> > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers >> > who use that language. >> > >> > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a >> > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. >> >> It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and then there are >> needed translators, our translators cant translate source code... > > True, only bilingual programmers could translate source code ... and > that was what I was suggesting. I doubt our string translators, or > their infrastructure, could be any help whatsoever. It is a totally > different problem. > > But I don't think it is impossible for bilingual programmers to > collaborate in this way. Merely difficult. There are many reasons for don't translate source code. Here two: - Other languages have non-ascii characters, and variable names can't be written with those characters. - Python is very similar to the natural language, but in other languages, where the order to use the words is different, the code leases concordance. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 09:14:41PM -0300, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > 2012/9/23 James Cameron : > > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > > without built-in internationalisation. > > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > > who use that language. > > > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. > > It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and then there are > needed translators, our translators cant translate source code... True, only bilingual programmers could translate source code ... and that was what I was suggesting. I doubt our string translators, or their infrastructure, could be any help whatsoever. It is a totally different problem. But I don't think it is impossible for bilingual programmers to collaborate in this way. Merely difficult. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 James Cameron : > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > without built-in internationalisation. > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > who use that language. > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and then there are needed translators, our translators cant translate source code... > I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor > application support. > > In the meanwhile, the source code moves slowly to the common language > of the most frequent change directors. As it happens to be my > language, I find it hard to object. ;-) Maybe because I don't speak Chinese or any other Asian language, I don't see difficult the task of understand/write source code in Python. I don't think it isn't inclusive or open, in this time we are able to translate from any language to our natural language using any translation program. I know about lots of English speakers writing in Spanish mailing lists thanks to Google Translate. And also the case of only-Spanish speakers writing in these mailing lists. If people can pass the barrier of the language at mails, source code is very easier. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Kevin Mark wrote: > They are both 'python' but most programmers are not going to be able to debug > the 2nd example easily. > -- > Making all the comments and the variable names in Spanish is not what I > expect for sugarlabs but maybe for the 'python joven' or similar. In my experience, programmers are typically able adept at thinking of variables in the abstract, thus the preponderance of "foo" and 'bar" when conversationally describing programming with variables. Comments in code are a little more challenging, but as long as a Google Translate window is handy, I would think that most basic algorithmic structures (loops, etc.) would be readily deciphered. Quozl's notion of a deeper abstraction layer so that variable names could be internationalized is interesting, but I'm pretty busy going only as deep as the UI strings as it is, so I'll pass on that for now. :-) cjl ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables > had Portuguese names. > Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files without built-in internationalisation. As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers who use that language. The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor application support. In the meanwhile, the source code moves slowly to the common language of the most frequent change directors. As it happens to be my language, I find it hard to object. ;-) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> > > # Just regarding the Sugar Paint activity mixes English and Portuguese > of its original maintainers. Now > # with all the changes and patches it conserves only some words, > specially file names like "desenho" > # instead design. > > Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables had Portuguese names. Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. Gonzalo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 02:19:38PM -0700, Kevin Mark wrote: > We need to 'clone' this person, we need more who can do what he is > doing! Find out from this person what hindered them, and remove that hindrance from others? ;-) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> but where I worked, it was like this: > #!/usr/bin/python > # questo è il modo in cui il punteggio di corrispondenza viene calcolato > partida = calcio101+calcio02 Ciao Mondo! :) # Just regarding the Sugar Paint activity mixes English and Portuguese of its original maintainers. Now # with all the changes and patches it conserves only some words, specially file names like "desenho" # instead design. > They are both 'python' but most programmers are not going to be able to debug > the 2nd example easily. > Making all the comments and the variable names in Spanish is not what I > expect for sugarlabs but maybe for the 'python joven' or similar. Small examples can be made in other langs, but not a big application. That doesn't teach for the real life. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Sun, 9/23/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > From: S. Daniel Francis > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > To: "Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez" > Cc: "iaep" , "Sugar-dev Devel" > , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org > Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 3:53 PM > 2012/9/23 Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez > : > > Hi, everybody. > > Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified > with the Walter message. > Hi Agustin! > > > I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when > I was ten, when I > > receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and > it liked me a lot. > > > > About the young programmers: > > I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a > lot but for obvious > > reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more > information, where the > > most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, > because I have learned > > english.. > > > > But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't > this luck, and they > > find it difficult to program. > > I'd say now there's a lot of documentation in Spanish, but I > agree > with you in the language can be a barrier sometimes, > specially for > write e-mails and similar things. > When Flavio said he doesn't understand why Spanish speakers > write > source code in English, I replied I don't write code in > English, I > write in Python, in C (not for Sugar) or in any programming > language. There is a subtle thing that I experienced when I was working at a multilingual website where it was common to speak, write and program in English, Spanish and Italian. The program language might have been C, python or vb script but it was written not like you'd expect. - In the US, this is the norm: #!/usr/bin/python # this is how you compute the total total = sum1+sum2+sum3 print "This is the total" total - but where I worked, it was like this: #!/usr/bin/python # questo è il modo in cui il punteggio di corrispondenza viene calcolato partida = calcio101+calcio02 - They are both 'python' but most programmers are not going to be able to debug the 2nd example easily. -- Making all the comments and the variable names in Spanish is not what I expect for sugarlabs but maybe for the 'python joven' or similar. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hello Agustin from the US :) --- On Sun, 9/23/12, Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez wrote: From: Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 To: "Gonzalo Odiard" Cc: "James Simmons" , "iaep" , "Sugar-dev Devel" , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org, "S. Daniel Francis" Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 3:16 PM Hi, everybody. Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified with the Walter message. I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when I was ten, when I receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and it liked me a lot. About the young programmers: I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot We need to 'clone' this person, we need more who can do what he is doing! but for obvious reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned english. Yes, access to the internet, a laptop and free time are VERY important in the global world and provides access to the largest library, but sadly 90% of the text is in English. But now there is more in other languages, and even better, almost anyone of any age can write a web page to add Spanish (or other langauge) text. But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they find it difficult to program. About sugar and the teachers: Unfortunately, when I was in primary school, no teacher was concerned with explaining how to use my XO, and the "logical sugar activities", such as Turtle Art and Scratch, but luckily their interfaces are very intuitive. That was the goal of Sugar Labs, to make it easy to use, its great that you agree and they need more kids to help them make it better. And when I started the high school was the same, no teacher was interested in the XO, except Mr. Flavio Danesse :) That is sad, more teaacher need to see what he is doing in High Schools. For this reason the most of my classmates, only use their XO to browse in Facebook and other social networks. That is useful, but its not as educational as learning about python or reading about world news or science or animals or something more about your interests or your future. Unless you are using facebook to talk about science and news and books. Thanks you for your great effort to explain how the XO is helping and how you use it.-KevinRegards, Agustin Zubiaga -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 Chris Leonard : > I would love to see more of the Spanish-only activities > present in ASLO take this step to i18n so that they can be used by > other XO kids around the world in their mother tongues. A good way would be if the ASLO editors request the authors to internationalize their activities. I know sometimes they do it, and leave a link to an article at wiki.sl.org where explains how to implement i18n. For my part, I can start to contact Spanish developers. Best regards, Daniel. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 3:53 PM, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > 2012/9/23 Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez : >> About the young programmers: >> I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot but for obvious >> reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the >> most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned >> english.. >> >> But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they >> find it difficult to program. > > I'd say now there's a lot of documentation in Spanish, but I agree > with you in the language can be a barrier sometimes, specially for > write e-mails and similar things. > When Flavio said he doesn't understand why Spanish speakers write > source code in English, I replied I don't write code in English, I > write in Python, in C (not for Sugar) or in any programming language. It is true that the language one speaks when programming is the computer's language. However, while is not important which language one uses for the UI strings as long as the users understand it, I would like to encourage all Sugar developers to write for an international audience by using gettext and generating English POT files. The argument for porting a stable branch of your UI strings to English and generating a POT from there is the simple and practical argument that English is the common language of our localization community. By all means, one should develop and test with Spanish UI strings if that is easiest, but please consider taking that next step to an internationalized activity (with English POT) when you have something you are proud of having developed and would like to share it with non-Spanish speakers. We are fortunate to have many developers that are "trilingual" (Spanish, English, Python) that are willing to help with this important step to make activities from Spanish-speaking developers available to children in any of the languages represented by our L10n community. I would love to see more of the Spanish-only activities present in ASLO take this step to i18n so that they can be used by other XO kids around the world in their mother tongues. Warmest Regards, cjl Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez : > Hi, everybody. > Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified with the Walter message. Hi Agustin! > I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when I was ten, when I > receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and it liked me a lot. > > About the young programmers: > I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot but for obvious > reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the > most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned > english.. > > But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they > find it difficult to program. I'd say now there's a lot of documentation in Spanish, but I agree with you in the language can be a barrier sometimes, specially for write e-mails and similar things. When Flavio said he doesn't understand why Spanish speakers write source code in English, I replied I don't write code in English, I write in Python, in C (not for Sugar) or in any programming language. > About sugar and the teachers: > Unfortunately, when I was in primary school, no teacher was concerned with > explaining how to use my XO, and the "logical sugar activities", such as > Turtle Art and Scratch, but luckily their interfaces are very intuitive. > And when I started the high school was the same, no teacher was interested > in the XO, except Mr. Flavio Danesse :) > For this reason the most of my classmates, only use their XO to browse in > Facebook and other social networks. Here One Laptop Per Child is promoted as an implementation with the aim of provide the children the possibility of access to the information and internet. Of course, when it's also an education project we expect an educational usage, I can say there is at least one teacher per school interested in implement XO computers in its classroom. Cheers, Daniel. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hi, everybody. Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified with the Walter message. I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when I was ten, when I receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and it liked me a lot. About the young programmers: I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot but for obvious reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned english. But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they find it difficult to program. About sugar and the teachers: Unfortunately, when I was in primary school, no teacher was concerned with explaining how to use my XO, and the "logical sugar activities", such as Turtle Art and Scratch, but luckily their interfaces are very intuitive. And when I started the high school was the same, no teacher was interested in the XO, except Mr. Flavio Danesse :) For this reason the most of my classmates, only use their XO to browse in Facebook and other social networks. Regards, Agustin Zubiaga ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
