Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sean DALY]

I'm certainly willing to try again. However the community (starting with
the Oversight Board) needs to support the initiative - technical work is
involved on our side even with a partner, including work I probably don't
even know about. And SL's immediate focus is on mentoring GSoC projects.

I will ask for an agenda item in the next Oversight Borard meeting or the
one after.

Sean.


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Iain Brown Douglas <
i...@browndouglas.plus.com> wrote:

> Hi Sean,
>
> Is it a thing that you would contemplate now, to approach Oracle (for
> corporate sponsorship, perhaps) but  in particular about what support
> they would offer Sugarlabs towards our targets?
>
> Would there be a view against this idea?
>
> Regards,
>
> Iain
>
> On Sat, 2015-03-21 at 11:37 +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
> > Yes, of course, which is why my idea was to get assistance. To be
> > clear, I'm in favor of whatever solution could ease installation.
> > Choosing a keyboard layout from scratch can be quite tricky for the
> > uninitiated, the Virtualbox list is long with many variants
> > (
> https://straymarcs.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/8.-select-keyboard.png)
> although an autodetect button is available. If the teacher or journalist
> has to configure language and keyboard a second time when booting the VM as
> you mention, that qualifies as jumping through hoops. My goal was to work
> with Oracle on a bundled installer+VM executable (which requires a matrix
> by host OS in any case) to make the install as seamless as possible. I cite
> Firefox because they propose a pancake button installer by probing the
> website client (or analyzing the user agent, or whatever they do), with the
> full matrix only 1 click away.
> >
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Gonzalo Odiard
> >  wrote:
> > We can ask language and keyboard in the first boot as we do
> > with age and gender.
> > I think create and maintain a complete matrix of VMs will be
> > more difficult.
> >
> >
> > Gonzalo
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Sean DALY
> >  wrote:
> > We need to do everything possible to reduce Sugar's
> > installation and unfamiliarity barriers. Not everyone
> > speaks English and can find and configure the Sugar
> > control panel on their first encounter with Sugar. A
> > keyboard mismatched with what appears on the screen
> > merely gives the impression it doesn't work right. VM
> > hosts could have a number of different keyboards - for
> > example I have a Macbook with French locale Azerty
> > layout
> >
> >  (flipped numbers row, common accents) and a Dell
> > education netbook with Belgium locale keyboard. Look
> > at the Firefox "Systems & Languages" download matrix
> > (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/), for a
> > Sugar VM with bundled installer an interested teacher
> > or journalist would just need to choose the
> > appropriate download.
> >
> >
> > I feel the huge sizes of these images would be more of
> > a problem, but not much we can do there.
> >
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:35 PM, Gonzalo Odiard
> >  wrote:
> > > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle
> > for corporate sponsorship
> > > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting
> > a workflow to automate
> > > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard,
> > however some community
> > > members were aghast at the idea.
> >
> >
> > Is still needed have a vm by host
> > language/keyboard?
> > Or we can ask to the user using the same code
> > from the Sugar control panel?
> >
> >
> > Gonzalo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, James Cameron
> >  wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM
> > +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
> > > My idea at the time was to approach
> > Oracle for corporate sponsorship
> > > of Virtualbox images, in particular
> > hosting a workflow to automate
> > > prebuilt images by host
> > language/keyboard, however some
> > community
> > > m

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

Hi Sean,

Is it a thing that you would contemplate now, to approach Oracle (for
corporate sponsorship, perhaps) but  in particular about what support
they would offer Sugarlabs towards our targets?

Would there be a view against this idea?

Regards,

Iain

On Sat, 2015-03-21 at 11:37 +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
> Yes, of course, which is why my idea was to get assistance. To be
> clear, I'm in favor of whatever solution could ease installation.
> Choosing a keyboard layout from scratch can be quite tricky for the
> uninitiated, the Virtualbox list is long with many variants
> (https://straymarcs.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/8.-select-keyboard.png) 
> although an autodetect button is available. If the teacher or journalist has 
> to configure language and keyboard a second time when booting the VM as you 
> mention, that qualifies as jumping through hoops. My goal was to work with 
> Oracle on a bundled installer+VM executable (which requires a matrix by host 
> OS in any case) to make the install as seamless as possible. I cite Firefox 
> because they propose a pancake button installer by probing the website client 
> (or analyzing the user agent, or whatever they do), with the full matrix only 
> 1 click away.
> 
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Gonzalo Odiard
>  wrote:
> We can ask language and keyboard in the first boot as we do
> with age and gender.
> I think create and maintain a complete matrix of VMs will be
> more difficult.
> 
> 
> Gonzalo 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Sean DALY
>  wrote:
> We need to do everything possible to reduce Sugar's
> installation and unfamiliarity barriers. Not everyone
> speaks English and can find and configure the Sugar
> control panel on their first encounter with Sugar. A
> keyboard mismatched with what appears on the screen
> merely gives the impression it doesn't work right. VM
> hosts could have a number of different keyboards - for
> example I have a Macbook with French locale Azerty
> layout
> 
>  (flipped numbers row, common accents) and a Dell
> education netbook with Belgium locale keyboard. Look
> at the Firefox "Systems & Languages" download matrix
> (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/), for a
> Sugar VM with bundled installer an interested teacher
> or journalist would just need to choose the
> appropriate download.
> 
> 
> I feel the huge sizes of these images would be more of
> a problem, but not much we can do there.
> 
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:35 PM, Gonzalo Odiard
>  wrote:
> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle
> for corporate sponsorship
> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting
> a workflow to automate
> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard,
> however some community
> > members were aghast at the idea.
> 
> 
> Is still needed have a vm by host
> language/keyboard?
> Or we can ask to the user using the same code
> from the Sugar control panel?
> 
> 
> Gonzalo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, James Cameron
>  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM
> +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
> > My idea at the time was to approach
> Oracle for corporate sponsorship
> > of Virtualbox images, in particular
> hosting a workflow to automate
> > prebuilt images by host
> language/keyboard, however some
> community
> > members were aghast at the idea.
> 
> Maybe now is a better time.  Maybe
> those aghast at the idea haven't
> noticed yet.  ;-)
>  

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sean DALY]

Yes, of course, which is why my idea was to get assistance. To be clear,
I'm in favor of whatever solution could ease installation. Choosing a
keyboard layout from scratch can be quite tricky for the uninitiated, the
Virtualbox list is long with many variants (
https://straymarcs.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/8.-select-keyboard.png)
although an autodetect button is available. If the teacher or journalist
has to configure language and keyboard a second time when booting the VM as
you mention, that qualifies as jumping through hoops. My goal was to work
with Oracle on a bundled installer+VM executable (which requires a matrix
by host OS in any case) to make the install as seamless as possible. I cite
Firefox because they propose a pancake button installer by probing the
website client (or analyzing the user agent, or whatever they do), with the
full matrix only 1 click away.

Sean


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Gonzalo Odiard 
wrote:

> We can ask language and keyboard in the first boot as we do with age and
> gender.
> I think create and maintain a complete matrix of VMs will be more
> difficult.
>
> Gonzalo
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Sean DALY  wrote:
>
>> We need to do everything possible to reduce Sugar's installation and
>> unfamiliarity barriers. Not everyone speaks English and can find and
>> configure the Sugar control panel on their first encounter with Sugar. A
>> keyboard mismatched with what appears on the screen merely gives the
>> impression it doesn't work right. VM hosts could have a number of different
>> keyboards - for example I have a Macbook with French locale Azerty layout
>>  (flipped numbers row, common accents) and a Dell education netbook with
>> Belgium locale keyboard. Look at the Firefox "Systems & Languages" download
>> matrix (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/), for a Sugar VM with
>> bundled installer an interested teacher or journalist would just need to
>> choose the appropriate download.
>>
>> I feel the huge sizes of these images would be more of a problem, but not
>> much we can do there.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:35 PM, Gonzalo Odiard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
>>> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
>>> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
>>> > members were aghast at the idea.
>>>
>>> Is still needed have a vm by host language/keyboard?
>>> Or we can ask to the user using the same code from the Sugar control
>>> panel?
>>>
>>> Gonzalo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, James Cameron  wrote:
>>>
 On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
 > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
 > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
 > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
 > members were aghast at the idea.

 Maybe now is a better time.  Maybe those aghast at the idea haven't
 noticed yet.  ;-)

 --
 James Cameron
 http://quozl.linux.org.au/

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gonzalo Odiard
>>>
>>> SugarLabs - Software for children learning
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Gonzalo Odiard
>
> SugarLabs - Software for children learning
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Gonzalo Odiard]

We can ask language and keyboard in the first boot as we do with age and
gender.
I think create and maintain a complete matrix of VMs will be more difficult.

Gonzalo

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Sean DALY  wrote:

> We need to do everything possible to reduce Sugar's installation and
> unfamiliarity barriers. Not everyone speaks English and can find and
> configure the Sugar control panel on their first encounter with Sugar. A
> keyboard mismatched with what appears on the screen merely gives the
> impression it doesn't work right. VM hosts could have a number of different
> keyboards - for example I have a Macbook with French locale Azerty layout
>  (flipped numbers row, common accents) and a Dell education netbook with
> Belgium locale keyboard. Look at the Firefox "Systems & Languages" download
> matrix (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/), for a Sugar VM with
> bundled installer an interested teacher or journalist would just need to
> choose the appropriate download.
>
> I feel the huge sizes of these images would be more of a problem, but not
> much we can do there.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:35 PM, Gonzalo Odiard 
> wrote:
>
>> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
>> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
>> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
>> > members were aghast at the idea.
>>
>> Is still needed have a vm by host language/keyboard?
>> Or we can ask to the user using the same code from the Sugar control
>> panel?
>>
>> Gonzalo
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, James Cameron  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
>>> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
>>> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
>>> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
>>> > members were aghast at the idea.
>>>
>>> Maybe now is a better time.  Maybe those aghast at the idea haven't
>>> noticed yet.  ;-)
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Cameron
>>> http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gonzalo Odiard
>>
>> SugarLabs - Software for children learning
>>
>
>


-- 
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SugarLabs - Software for children learning
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sean DALY]

We need to do everything possible to reduce Sugar's installation and
unfamiliarity barriers. Not everyone speaks English and can find and
configure the Sugar control panel on their first encounter with Sugar. A
keyboard mismatched with what appears on the screen merely gives the
impression it doesn't work right. VM hosts could have a number of different
keyboards - for example I have a Macbook with French locale Azerty layout
 (flipped numbers row, common accents) and a Dell education netbook with
Belgium locale keyboard. Look at the Firefox "Systems & Languages" download
matrix (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/), for a Sugar VM with
bundled installer an interested teacher or journalist would just need to
choose the appropriate download.

I feel the huge sizes of these images would be more of a problem, but not
much we can do there.

Sean


On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:35 PM, Gonzalo Odiard 
wrote:

> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
> > members were aghast at the idea.
>
> Is still needed have a vm by host language/keyboard?
> Or we can ask to the user using the same code from the Sugar control panel?
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
>> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
>> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
>> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
>> > members were aghast at the idea.
>>
>> Maybe now is a better time.  Maybe those aghast at the idea haven't
>> noticed yet.  ;-)
>>
>> --
>> James Cameron
>> http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gonzalo Odiard
>
> SugarLabs - Software for children learning
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Gonzalo Odiard]

> My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
> of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
> prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
> members were aghast at the idea.

Is still needed have a vm by host language/keyboard?
Or we can ask to the user using the same code from the Sugar control panel?

Gonzalo



On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:18 PM, James Cameron  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
> > My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
> > of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
> > prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
> > members were aghast at the idea.
>
> Maybe now is a better time.  Maybe those aghast at the idea haven't
> noticed yet.  ;-)
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>



-- 
Gonzalo Odiard

SugarLabs - Software for children learning
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[James Cameron]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 06:26:34PM +0100, Sean DALY wrote:
> My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship
> of Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate
> prebuilt images by host language/keyboard, however some community
> members were aghast at the idea.

Maybe now is a better time.  Maybe those aghast at the idea haven't
noticed yet.  ;-)

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[James Cameron]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 08:43:52AM -0500, Sebastian Silva wrote:
> Still, with 3 months time, a student should be able to pull off
> making it as friendly as possible, but it would have to be
> repeatable, like you say, "almost automatic".

Yes, repeatability would be essential.  That's something I'm not
confident we have with the virtual machines made by Thomas.  Yes,
Thomas is repeatable if we ask him to be, but the idea of
repeatability is that someone can "flick a switch" and a new image is
automatically built and customised ready for testing.

-- 
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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sean DALY]

No the license was fine last time i checked - look at the section
concerning nonprofit/educational use. Our plan had been to bundle Sugar
prebuilt images with the Virtualbox installer.

The real issue is the extensions which are separate from the installer for
licensing reasons and must be loaded separately. The extensions may be
vital for connectivity.

My idea at the time was to approach Oracle for corporate sponsorship of
Virtualbox images, in particular hosting a workflow to automate prebuilt
images by host language/keyboard, however some community members were
aghast at the idea.

I myself have used Sugar in VirtualBox at presentations and conferences,
hassle free screen/sound/internet connectivity and full screen (Macbook),
while I hold/pass around an XO.

Sean


On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Sebastian Silva 
wrote:

>  I was under the impression that the only viable option for that purpose
> was Virtualbox, but it's license is pretty dubious (GPLv2 + some useful
> parts proprietary). Oracle has a history of bad behaviour with regard to
> licenses, so I would not put all of our eggs in this basket.
>
> Still, with 3 months time, a student should be able to pull off making it
> as friendly as possible, but it would have to be repeatable, like you say,
> "almost automatic".
>
> It would be even better if it was "fully automatic" that way we could have
> regular builds.
>
> Regards,
> Sebastian
>
> El 20/03/15 a las 08:38, Gonzalo Odiard escibió:
>
> I didn't have idea that there are so many virtualization options:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_platform_virtualization_software
>
>  If we could have a "almost automatic" way to create a vm,
> and share to users in windows or mac, could solve a lot of problems,
> and help us reach a bigger user base.
>
>  Gonzalo
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Sebastian Silva <
> sebast...@fuentelibre.org> wrote:
>
>>  El 20/03/15 a las 06:58, Gonzalo Odiard escibió:
>>
>>   |> A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine _and_
>>> > virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary configuration files so
>>> > that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.
>>
>>
>>  Yes. This would be great.
>>
>> This would also be a nice GSOC project.
>>
>
>
>
>  --
>  Gonzalo Odiard
>
> SugarLabs - Software for children learning
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sebastian Silva]

I was under the impression that the only viable option for that purpose
was Virtualbox, but it's license is pretty dubious (GPLv2 + some useful
parts proprietary). Oracle has a history of bad behaviour with regard to
licenses, so I would not put all of our eggs in this basket.

Still, with 3 months time, a student should be able to pull off making
it as friendly as possible, but it would have to be repeatable, like you
say, "almost automatic".

It would be even better if it was "fully automatic" that way we could
have regular builds.

Regards,
Sebastian

El 20/03/15 a las 08:38, Gonzalo Odiard escibió:
> I didn't have idea that there are so many virtualization options:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_platform_virtualization_software
>
> If we could have a "almost automatic" way to create a vm,
> and share to users in windows or mac, could solve a lot of problems,
> and help us reach a bigger user base.
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Sebastian Silva
> mailto:sebast...@fuentelibre.org>> wrote:
>
> El 20/03/15 a las 06:58, Gonzalo Odiard escibió:
>
>> |> A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine
>> _and_
>> > virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary
>> configuration files so
>> > that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.
>>
>>
>> Yes. This would be great.
>>
> This would also be a nice GSOC project.
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Gonzalo Odiard
>
> SugarLabs - Software for children learning 

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Gonzalo Odiard]

I didn't have idea that there are so many virtualization options:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_platform_virtualization_software

If we could have a "almost automatic" way to create a vm,
and share to users in windows or mac, could solve a lot of problems,
and help us reach a bigger user base.

Gonzalo



On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

>  El 20/03/15 a las 06:58, Gonzalo Odiard escibió:
>
>   |> A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine _and_
>> > virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary configuration files so
>> > that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.
>
>
>  Yes. This would be great.
>
>This would also be a nice GSOC project.
>



-- 
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SugarLabs - Software for children learning
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sebastian Silva]

El 20/03/15 a las 06:58, Gonzalo Odiard escibió:
>
> |> A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine _and_
> > virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary configuration
> files so
> > that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.
>
>
> Yes. This would be great.
>
This would also be a nice GSOC project.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Gonzalo Odiard]

>
> |> A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine _and_
> > virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary configuration files so
> > that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.


Yes. This would be great.

Gonzalo
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects - SOAS

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 12:06 +0800, Tony Anderson wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> Is this proposal to make SOAS a live stick capable of installing Sugar
> on conventional systems (Trisquel, ...)?
> 
> We have a live version of this problem on the server side.
> 
> Jerry Vonau wrote a script mkusbinstall based on live-cd. OLE Nepal
> switched to unetbootin for NEXS 6_31 (OS-7 on CentOS 6.4).
> I have been trying to make this work cleanly with BERNIE - to no
> avail.
> 
> One problem is that the user needs to be root. This is not possible
> for a script unless it is launched by a live user. Unetbootin is 
> a gui implementation.
> 
> What I am looking for is a way to make a bootable usb stick that is
> ready to install XS without user having to supply any configuration 
> information (like path names to image or /dev for usb stick) - sort of
> an all-in-one unetbootin.

Does lili [1] fail to do this? Where does it fail?

[1] http://www.linuxliveusb.com/

(Of course this is just the organ grinder's monkey replying.)

I had rather wanted to install XS to my cubieboard. I think it would be
doable (but probably beyond my available learning time).

This would give the potential to put XS on a cheaply available set top
box.

Regards,

Iain
> 
> The steps require formatting the usb device (as would be true for
> SOAS), copying the image to the disk,  and running live_cd to create
> the environment on the 
> usb stick. 
> 
> In the SOAS case, the usb stick presumably runs live and has the
> option to install for some target platforms.
> 
> Tony
> 
> On 03/20/2015 06:26 AM, sugar-devel-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:
> 
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 22:25:55 +
> > From: Iain Brown Douglas 
> > To: James Cameron 
> > Cc: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects
> > Message-ID: <1426803955.2592.56.camel@vey-waldorf>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > 
> > Hi James,
> > 
> > Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
> > Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.
> > 
> > On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 08:48 +1100, James Cameron wrote:
> > > > I've often thought of making such an application, because of the
> > > > difficulties that some people report with downloading files and
> > > > putting them on USB drive.
> > > > 
> > > > The problem with an application is one may end up having to explain
> > > > how to download the application; transferring the issue from the
> > > > original problem to an application that was supposed to fix the
> > > > problem.
> > > > 
> > > > In the meanwhile, I have been working the overall problem as a
> > > > training and experience issue, and maintaining a structured
> > > > document:
> > > > 
> > > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Download
> > Thanks for that - I believe that systematic approach would be great
> > backup for those experiencing difficulties downloading.
> > 
> > (Using curl is a sound idea from the point of view that one set of
> > instructions can cover a host of different OS)
> > > > 
> > > > Some further ideas for what your application might do:
> > > > 
> > > > 1.  the initial download,
> > > > 
> > > > 2.  resuming an interrupted download,
> > > > 
> > > > 3.  verification of download using md5sum or other hashes,
> > > > 
> > > > 4.  media verification, reading back the files or image to check that
> > > > writing was successful and the media still works.
> > > > 
> > I think I am right that 4 is covered already by livecd-iso-to-disk, so
> > (in my model) the user only has to write a bootable CD.
> > 
> > If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
> > prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.
> > 
> > > > I've no evidence of proportion of people who have problems with
> > > > downloading files and putting them on media; perhaps it is a
> > > > non-problem.
> > > > 
> > > > A more correct approach would be to do research and survey of people
> > > > before and after such an application is made available.  A GSoC
> > > > project could be padded out with this research, and easily fill three
> > > > months.
> > > > 
> > > > A systems engineering view would change the product so that the files
> > > 

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 11:49 +1100, James Cameron wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:25:55PM +, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> > Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
> > Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.
> 
> Yep, no worries.  Interesting, but you went off into areas I didn't
> have any comment on.
> 
> I do have a comment on the accessibility of Sugar for new users ..
> 
> Because of this complexity you are trying to solve, bootable USB
> drives are more trouble than they are worth.  Bootable media is more
> of a purists approach for reasons of Sugar performance, and ease of
> production by developers.
> 
> A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine _and_
> virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary configuration files so
> that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.

I agree this would be ideal for a committed potential user, and I would
love to see it.

However, (and I believe I am more of an old git than a purist) the CD =>
USB stick has some human merits.

Many people can afford the time to have-a-go at downloading a CD.

You can give it to people, to use or demo.

If you like it, zap-it-to-a-stick, has attractions, *if* a 3 minute
video might cover it.

Giving a child a physical stick is nice. Constructionist.

Regards

Iain
> 
> Then it would be one big download in .exe format for Windows, and .dmg
> format for Mac OS X.  The user would click on it and it would show
> them Sugar after a short delay.
> 
> I know Thomas Gilliard has worked on some of the components of this,
> in particular manually prepared virtual machine images, but it would
> need to be a complete packaged solution, not a series of complex
> fragments as it is now.
> 


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects - SOAS

[Tony Anderson]

Hi,

Is this proposal to make SOAS a live stick capable of installing Sugar 
on conventional systems (Trisquel, ...)?


We have a live version of this problem on the server side.

Jerry Vonau wrote a script mkusbinstall based on live-cd. OLE Nepal 
switched to unetbootin for NEXS 6_31 (OS-7 on CentOS 6.4).

I have been trying to make this work cleanly with BERNIE - to no avail.

One problem is that the user needs to be root. This is not possible for 
a script unless it is launched by a live user. Unetbootin is

a gui implementation.

What I am looking for is a way to make a bootable usb stick that is 
ready to install XS without user having to supply any configuration
information (like path names to image or /dev for usb stick) - sort of 
an all-in-one unetbootin.


The steps require formatting the usb device (as would be true for SOAS), 
copying the image to the disk,  and running live_cd to create the 
environment on the

usb stick.

In the SOAS case, the usb stick presumably runs live and has the option 
to install for some target platforms.


Tony

On 03/20/2015 06:26 AM, sugar-devel-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 22:25:55 +
From: Iain Brown Douglas
To: James Cameron
Cc:sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects
Message-ID: <1426803955.2592.56.camel@vey-waldorf>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi James,

Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 08:48 +1100, James Cameron wrote:

>I've often thought of making such an application, because of the
>difficulties that some people report with downloading files and
>putting them on USB drive.
>
>The problem with an application is one may end up having to explain
>how to download the application; transferring the issue from the
>original problem to an application that was supposed to fix the
>problem.
>
>In the meanwhile, I have been working the overall problem as a
>training and experience issue, and maintaining a structured
>document:
>
>http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Download

Thanks for that - I believe that systematic approach would be great
backup for those experiencing difficulties downloading.

(Using curl is a sound idea from the point of view that one set of
instructions can cover a host of different OS)

>
>Some further ideas for what your application might do:
>
>1.  the initial download,
>
>2.  resuming an interrupted download,
>
>3.  verification of download using md5sum or other hashes,
>
>4.  media verification, reading back the files or image to check that
>writing was successful and the media still works.
>

I think I am right that 4 is covered already by livecd-iso-to-disk, so
(in my model) the user only has to write a bootable CD.

If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.


>I've no evidence of proportion of people who have problems with
>downloading files and putting them on media; perhaps it is a
>non-problem.
>
>A more correct approach would be to do research and survey of people
>before and after such an application is made available.  A GSoC
>project could be padded out with this research, and easily fill three
>months.
>
>A systems engineering view would change the product so that the files
>don't have to be written to media in any particular way.  That's what
>we did with the original XO laptops, but SoaS bootable images are
>different because of the typical PC firmware being so exacting.
>

I think this would be achieved if `liveinst` could be persuaded to write
*only*  to an automatically confirmed target USB, with the host hard
drive locked out during install and during use of the stick, and grub
instructed to find only the USB SoaS system.


With reasonably priced availability of 8 GB sticks, this would seem a
preferable option to me.

Regards,

Iain


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[James Cameron]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:25:55PM +, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
> Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.

Yep, no worries.  Interesting, but you went off into areas I didn't
have any comment on.

I do have a comment on the accessibility of Sugar for new users ..

Because of this complexity you are trying to solve, bootable USB
drives are more trouble than they are worth.  Bootable media is more
of a purists approach for reasons of Sugar performance, and ease of
production by developers.

A different approach would be to provide a virtual machine _and_
virtualisation software _and_ all the necessary configuration files so
that the user is not exposed to the virtualisation.

Then it would be one big download in .exe format for Windows, and .dmg
format for Mac OS X.  The user would click on it and it would show
them Sugar after a short delay.

I know Thomas Gilliard has worked on some of the components of this,
in particular manually prepared virtual machine images, but it would
need to be a complete packaged solution, not a series of complex
fragments as it is now.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 18:44 -0500, Jerry Vonau wrote:
> 
> > On March 19, 2015 at 6:30 PM Iain Brown Douglas
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Jerry,
> 
> 
> > > > If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
> > > > prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is there any specific branding that you want to use?
> >
> > No, I have no angle at all on that. I found the CD/DVD available online
> > for $8. I only make the point that $8 is a sound investment for anyone
> > alarmed at a download, if they know it will "self convert" to a USB
> > version.
> 
> Think what you're after is sugar on a non-live usbkey, so one would not
> have to go through the hoops of running 'liveinst' to create this usbkey.
> Kind of like the way the ARM SoaS images are built. Just boot the key and
> this is your desktop sort of thing?

I had not thought of that being an option.

I have found a "made by liveinst" usbkey, to be superior to compressed.
I can transfer files on and off it easily, and can very easily see, or
fix it, if overfull.

Another benefit is the possibility of a combined Sugar + Mate on a stick
which is attractive. (I have one.)

Also with Sugar a possibility on Raspberry Pi 2, and Allwinner tablets,
if there is a similarity of work-flow I see that as attractive from POV
documentation.

Iain
> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Jerry Vonau]

> On March 19, 2015 at 6:30 PM Iain Brown Douglas
>  wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jerry,


> > > If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
> > > prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.
> > >
> >
> > Is there any specific branding that you want to use?
>
> No, I have no angle at all on that. I found the CD/DVD available online
> for $8. I only make the point that $8 is a sound investment for anyone
> alarmed at a download, if they know it will "self convert" to a USB
> version.

Think what you're after is sugar on a non-live usbkey, so one would not
have to go through the hoops of running 'liveinst' to create this usbkey.
Kind of like the way the ARM SoaS images are built. Just boot the key and
this is your desktop sort of thing?
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

Hi Jerry,

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 18:02 -0500, Jerry Vonau wrote:
> Hi Iain:
> 
> > On March 19, 2015 at 5:25 PM Iain Brown Douglas
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi James,
> >
> > Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
> > Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.
> >
> > On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 08:48 +1100, James Cameron wrote:
> > > I've often thought of making such an application, because of the
> > > difficulties that some people report with downloading files and
> > > putting them on USB drive.
> > >
> > > The problem with an application is one may end up having to explain
> > > how to download the application; transferring the issue from the
> > > original problem to an application that was supposed to fix the
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > In the meanwhile, I have been working the overall problem as a
> > > training and experience issue, and maintaining a structured
> > > document:
> > >
> > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Download
> >
> > Thanks for that - I believe that systematic approach would be great
> > backup for those experiencing difficulties downloading.
> >
> > (Using curl is a sound idea from the point of view that one set of
> > instructions can cover a host of different OS)
> > >
> > > Some further ideas for what your application might do:
> > >
> > > 1.  the initial download,
> > >
> > > 2.  resuming an interrupted download,
> > >
> > > 3.  verification of download using md5sum or other hashes,
> > >
> > > 4.  media verification, reading back the files or image to check that
> > > writing was successful and the media still works.
> > >
> > I think I am right that 4 is covered already by livecd-iso-to-disk, so
> > (in my model) the user only has to write a bootable CD.
> >
> 
> Yes
> 
> > If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
> > prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.
> >
> 
> Is there any specific branding that you want to use?

No, I have no angle at all on that. I found the CD/DVD available online
for $8. I only make the point that $8 is a sound investment for anyone
alarmed at a download, if they know it will "self convert" to a USB
version.
>  
> > > I've no evidence of proportion of people who have problems with
> > > downloading files and putting them on media; perhaps it is a
> > > non-problem.
> > >
> > > A more correct approach would be to do research and survey of people
> > > before and after such an application is made available.  A GSoC
> > > project could be padded out with this research, and easily fill three
> > > months.
> > >
> > > A systems engineering view would change the product so that the files
> > > don't have to be written to media in any particular way.  That's what
> > > we did with the original XO laptops, but SoaS bootable images are
> > > different because of the typical PC firmware being so exacting.
> > >
> >
> > I think this would be achieved if `liveinst` could be persuaded to write
> > *only* to an automatically confirmed target USB, with the host hard
> > drive locked out during install and during use of the stick, and grub
> > instructed to find only the USB SoaS system.
> >
> 
> One would not use 'liveinst' to create a bootable "live" usb device that is
> done as you said with livecd-iso-to-disk. Using 'liveinst' installs a
> non-live version of what is booted to a disk, this could be a internal
> harddisk or a removable usb drive.
> 
> >
> > With reasonably priced availability of 8 GB sticks, this would seem a
> > preferable option to me.
> >
> 
> 'liveinst' is a thin wrapper around Fedora's installer anaconda, which can
> use use a kickstart file to automate all or part the process. With a bit of
> wizardry one could feed the needed info for the target's partitioning into
> a kickstart file and use that with liveinst.
> 
> Once you have a non-live install on a usb drive you could clone the device,
> just don't boot it before you clone it. Think I'd be interested in working
> out the details to make this work.

That would be magic!

Iain
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> > Regards,
> >
> > Iain
> > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 03:54:02PM +, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 12:12 -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> > > > > Hi Iain!
> > > > > GSoC project are for 3 months of work for a university student.
> > > > > Do you think that script imply that amount of work?
> > > > No :)
> > > > > What should be the use case? Auto duplicate SoaS?
> > > > > Reagrds,
> > > > >
> > > > The use case is in the field of Auto duplicate SoaS, yes.
> > > >
> > > > SoaS Loader [2] is horribly clunky, *but* it is a way to get the
> > > > instructions where they are accessible.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps I should instead ask here whether anyone would work with me
> > > > on
> > > > SoaS Loader to make such a script.
> > > >
> > > > Iain
> > > >
> > > > > Gonzalo
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Iain Brown Douglas
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > Hi All,

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Jerry Vonau]

Hi Iain:

> On March 19, 2015 at 5:25 PM Iain Brown Douglas
>  wrote:
>
>
> Hi James,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
> Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.
>
> On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 08:48 +1100, James Cameron wrote:
> > I've often thought of making such an application, because of the
> > difficulties that some people report with downloading files and
> > putting them on USB drive.
> >
> > The problem with an application is one may end up having to explain
> > how to download the application; transferring the issue from the
> > original problem to an application that was supposed to fix the
> > problem.
> >
> > In the meanwhile, I have been working the overall problem as a
> > training and experience issue, and maintaining a structured
> > document:
> >
> >     http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Download
>
> Thanks for that - I believe that systematic approach would be great
> backup for those experiencing difficulties downloading.
>
> (Using curl is a sound idea from the point of view that one set of
> instructions can cover a host of different OS)
> >
> > Some further ideas for what your application might do:
> >
> > 1.  the initial download,
> >
> > 2.  resuming an interrupted download,
> >
> > 3.  verification of download using md5sum or other hashes,
> >
> > 4.  media verification, reading back the files or image to check that
> > writing was successful and the media still works.
> >
> I think I am right that 4 is covered already by livecd-iso-to-disk, so
> (in my model) the user only has to write a bootable CD.
>

Yes

> If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
> prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.
>

Is there any specific branding that you want to use?
 
> > I've no evidence of proportion of people who have problems with
> > downloading files and putting them on media; perhaps it is a
> > non-problem.
> >
> > A more correct approach would be to do research and survey of people
> > before and after such an application is made available.  A GSoC
> > project could be padded out with this research, and easily fill three
> > months.
> >
> > A systems engineering view would change the product so that the files
> > don't have to be written to media in any particular way.  That's what
> > we did with the original XO laptops, but SoaS bootable images are
> > different because of the typical PC firmware being so exacting.
> >
>
> I think this would be achieved if `liveinst` could be persuaded to write
> *only* to an automatically confirmed target USB, with the host hard
> drive locked out during install and during use of the stick, and grub
> instructed to find only the USB SoaS system.
>

One would not use 'liveinst' to create a bootable "live" usb device that is
done as you said with livecd-iso-to-disk. Using 'liveinst' installs a
non-live version of what is booted to a disk, this could be a internal
harddisk or a removable usb drive.

>
> With reasonably priced availability of 8 GB sticks, this would seem a
> preferable option to me.
>

'liveinst' is a thin wrapper around Fedora's installer anaconda, which can
use use a kickstart file to automate all or part the process. With a bit of
wizardry one could feed the needed info for the target's partitioning into
a kickstart file and use that with liveinst.

Once you have a non-live install on a usb drive you could clone the device,
just don't boot it before you clone it. Think I'd be interested in working
out the details to make this work.

Jerry



> Regards,
>
> Iain
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 03:54:02PM +, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 12:12 -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> > > > Hi Iain!
> > > > GSoC project are for 3 months of work for a university student.
> > > > Do you think that script imply that amount of work?
> > > No :)
> > > > What should be the use case? Auto duplicate SoaS?
> > > > Reagrds,
> > > >
> > > The use case is in the field of Auto duplicate SoaS, yes.
> > >
> > > SoaS Loader [2] is horribly clunky, *but* it is a way to get the
> > > instructions where they are accessible.
> > >
> > > Perhaps I should instead ask here whether anyone would work with me
> > > on
> > > SoaS Loader to make such a script.
> > >
> > > Iain
> > >
> > > > Gonzalo
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Iain Brown Douglas
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >         Hi All,
> > > >         
> > > >         I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or
> > > >         inappropriate) to add this idea to Google Summer of Code
> > > >[1]?
> > > >         
> > > >         To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which
> > > >would
> > > >         probe the capacity of an
> > > >         inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk
> > > >command
> > > >         on
> > > >         confirmation by the user. The command would suit the
> > > >         aspirations of SoaS Loader [2].
> > > >         
> > > >         Regard

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

Hi James,

Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful contribution.
Perhaps you will forgive me if I brainstorm this a bit.

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 08:48 +1100, James Cameron wrote:
> I've often thought of making such an application, because of the
> difficulties that some people report with downloading files and
> putting them on USB drive.
> 
> The problem with an application is one may end up having to explain
> how to download the application; transferring the issue from the
> original problem to an application that was supposed to fix the
> problem.
> 
> In the meanwhile, I have been working the overall problem as a
> training and experience issue, and maintaining a structured
> document:
> 
>   http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Download

Thanks for that - I believe that systematic approach would be great
backup for those experiencing difficulties downloading.

(Using curl is a sound idea from the point of view that one set of
instructions can cover a host of different OS)
> 
> Some further ideas for what your application might do:
> 
> 1.  the initial download,
> 
> 2.  resuming an interrupted download,
> 
> 3.  verification of download using md5sum or other hashes,
> 
> 4.  media verification, reading back the files or image to check that
> writing was successful and the media still works.
> 
I think I am right that 4 is covered already by livecd-iso-to-disk, so
(in my model) the user only has to write a bootable CD.

If one knew that a SoaS CD would always make a "Sugar stick", the
prospect of selling the CD, (by third parties ?) becomes more doable.

> I've no evidence of proportion of people who have problems with
> downloading files and putting them on media; perhaps it is a
> non-problem.
> 
> A more correct approach would be to do research and survey of people
> before and after such an application is made available.  A GSoC
> project could be padded out with this research, and easily fill three
> months.
> 
> A systems engineering view would change the product so that the files
> don't have to be written to media in any particular way.  That's what
> we did with the original XO laptops, but SoaS bootable images are
> different because of the typical PC firmware being so exacting.
> 

I think this would be achieved if `liveinst` could be persuaded to write
*only* to an automatically confirmed target USB, with the host hard
drive locked out during install and during use of the stick, and grub
instructed to find only the USB SoaS system.


With reasonably priced availability of 8 GB sticks, this would seem a
preferable option to me.

Regards,

Iain
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 03:54:02PM +, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> > On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 12:12 -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> > > Hi Iain!
> > > GSoC project are for 3 months of work for a university student.
> > > Do you think that script imply that amount of work? 
> > No :)
> > > What should be the use case? Auto duplicate SoaS?
> > > Reagrds,
> > > 
> > The use case is in the field of Auto duplicate SoaS, yes.
> > 
> > SoaS Loader [2] is horribly clunky, *but* it is a way to get the
> > instructions where they are accessible.
> > 
> > Perhaps I should instead ask here whether anyone would work with me on
> > SoaS Loader to make such a script.
> > 
> > Iain
> > 
> > > Gonzalo
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Iain Brown Douglas
> > >  wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > > 
> > > I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or
> > > inappropriate) to add this idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?
> > > 
> > > To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would
> > > probe the capacity of an
> > > inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command
> > > on
> > > confirmation by the user. The command would suit the
> > > aspirations of SoaS Loader [2].
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Iain
> > > 
> > > [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
> > > [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Gonzalo Odiard
> > > 
> > > SugarLabs - Software for children learning 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 11:11 -0500, Sebastian Silva wrote:
> By no means!
> 
> It actually is a great idea.
> 
> Since you had the idea (or the itch) to fix this, I would ask that
> you, please, see it thru to completion. ;-)
> Take 10 minutes to list all the ways trying Sugar could be improved,
> or, where not improved, at least better documented.
> 
> There. Now you will have a meaningful GSoC Project: 
> 'Improve Sugar's "first impression" User Experience: Sugar on a
> Stick / Trisquel on a Toast '
> This is an interesting project because it is _not only_ coding but
> heavily, design and some marketing.
> 
> In my mind it would be to:
>   * Make a custom lili / unetbootin / etc installer capable of
> presenting simple wizard like creation tool.
>   * Put some useful information in Soas / Toast.
>   * Maybe solve the installer chicken-egg problem (can't trust a
> kid with a partitioning installer).
>   * Document all of this
>   * Make it so that the solution is flexible for the future
>   * Make a website that offers the friendliest solution based on
> platform, and turns to Sugarizer as worst-case
> Register for being a mentor at google melange. Then you have to "add a
> connection" to Sugar Labs as a mentor. 
> Don't ask me, the UI is horrible. They get themselves help in this
> regard.
> 
> Please do this. It will amplify Sugar Lab's usefulness for sure.
> 
> Regards,
> Sebastian
> 
This is an excellent proposal, Sebastian, but well beyond me!

Please do carry this idea forward - my idea (or the itch) was never as
big as this! I will give you all the support I can.

Meanwhile I shall plug away at getting SoaS Loader to work properly. Any
offers of help welcome.

Regards,

Iain

> El 19/03/15 a las 10:51, Iain Brown Douglas escibió:
> 
> > I take that as an `inappropriate`, then :)
> 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[James Cameron]

I've often thought of making such an application, because of the
difficulties that some people report with downloading files and
putting them on USB drive.

The problem with an application is one may end up having to explain
how to download the application; transferring the issue from the
original problem to an application that was supposed to fix the
problem.

In the meanwhile, I have been working the overall problem as a
training and experience issue, and maintaining a structured
document:

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Download

Some further ideas for what your application might do:

1.  the initial download,

2.  resuming an interrupted download,

3.  verification of download using md5sum or other hashes,

4.  media verification, reading back the files or image to check that
writing was successful and the media still works.

I've no evidence of proportion of people who have problems with
downloading files and putting them on media; perhaps it is a
non-problem.

A more correct approach would be to do research and survey of people
before and after such an application is made available.  A GSoC
project could be padded out with this research, and easily fill three
months.

A systems engineering view would change the product so that the files
don't have to be written to media in any particular way.  That's what
we did with the original XO laptops, but SoaS bootable images are
different because of the typical PC firmware being so exacting.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 03:54:02PM +, Iain Brown Douglas wrote:
> On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 12:12 -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> > Hi Iain!
> > GSoC project are for 3 months of work for a university student.
> > Do you think that script imply that amount of work? 
> No :)
> > What should be the use case? Auto duplicate SoaS?
> > Reagrds,
> > 
> The use case is in the field of Auto duplicate SoaS, yes.
> 
> SoaS Loader [2] is horribly clunky, *but* it is a way to get the
> instructions where they are accessible.
> 
> Perhaps I should instead ask here whether anyone would work with me on
> SoaS Loader to make such a script.
> 
> Iain
> 
> > Gonzalo
> > 
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Iain Brown Douglas
> >  wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or
> > inappropriate) to add this idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?
> > 
> > To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would
> > probe the capacity of an
> > inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command
> > on
> > confirmation by the user. The command would suit the
> > aspirations of SoaS Loader [2].
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Iain
> > 
> > [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
> > [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader
> > 
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Gonzalo Odiard
> > 
> > SugarLabs - Software for children learning 
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
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-- 
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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 10:11 -0500, Sebastian Silva wrote:
> But perhaps you could envision a more complete solution
> related to Sugar on a Stick's need (Fedora / Trisquel / future variants).
> 
This is an important part of your reply. My envisioning does not go that
far, :(

Regards,

Iain


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sebastian Silva]

By no means!

It actually is a great idea.

Since you had the idea (or the itch) to fix this, I would ask that you,
please, see it thru to completion. ;-)
Take 10 minutes to list all the ways trying Sugar could be improved, or,
where not improved, at least better documented.

There. Now you will have a meaningful GSoC Project:*
'Improve Sugar's "first impression" User Experience: Sugar on a
Stick / Trisquel on a Toast '*
This is an interesting project because it is _not only_ coding but
heavily, design and some marketing.

In my mind it would be to:

  * Make a custom lili / unetbootin / etc installer capable of
presenting simple wizard like creation tool.
  * Put some useful information in Soas / Toast.
  * Maybe solve the installer chicken-egg problem (can't trust a kid
with a partitioning installer).
  * Document all of this
  * Make it so that the solution is flexible for the future
  * Make a website that offers the friendliest solution based on
platform, and turns to Sugarizer as worst-case

Register for being a mentor
 at
google melange. Then you have to "add a connection" to Sugar Labs as a
mentor.
Don't ask me, the UI is horrible. They get themselves help in this regard.

Please do this. It will amplify Sugar Lab's usefulness for sure.

Regards,
Sebastian

El 19/03/15 a las 10:51, Iain Brown Douglas escibió:
> I take that as an `inappropriate`, then :)

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 12:12 -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> Hi Iain!
> GSoC project are for 3 months of work for a university student.
> Do you think that script imply that amount of work? 
No :)
> What should be the use case? Auto duplicate SoaS?
> Reagrds,
> 
The use case is in the field of Auto duplicate SoaS, yes.

SoaS Loader [2] is horribly clunky, *but* it is a way to get the
instructions where they are accessible.

Perhaps I should instead ask here whether anyone would work with me on
SoaS Loader to make such a script.

Iain

> Gonzalo
> 
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Iain Brown Douglas
>  wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or
> inappropriate) to add this idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?
> 
> To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would
> probe the capacity of an
> inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command
> on
> confirmation by the user. The command would suit the
> aspirations of SoaS Loader [2].
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Iain
> 
> [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
> [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gonzalo Odiard
> 
> SugarLabs - Software for children learning 
> 


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

On Thu, 2015-03-19 at 10:11 -0500, Sebastian Silva wrote:
> Hi Iain.
> 
> IMHO you'd need to flesh it out some more, the simple conditional you
> spec'd out should take an afternoon to code. You need to think of
> something that will fit a 5000 US$ developing stipend and/or if you
> prefer, a summer's work.
> 
> By the way, I am under the impression this is a problem with some GSOC
> ideas.
> 
> Not saying we should expect major move forward in Sugar from a 3 months
> internship. But perhaps you could envision a more complete solution
> related to Sugar on a Stick's need (Fedora / Trisquel / future variants).
> 
> I find that many people find it hard to burn a USB stick or CD, download
> the correct image (heck I don't know where to look).

Agreed - the point has been made before, but the download button on the
wiki does not point to a download!

> Perhaps a simple
> multiplatform disk burner based on unetbootin or suse's imagewriter, or
> written from scratch would be really cool, something that will look up
> and present the options in SOAS, etc.
> 
There is LiLi [3]
> This sounds to me like a more complete project but perhaps I'm too
> ambitious.
> 
That sounds really cool, I should like to see that.


> Regards,
> Sebastian
> 
> 
> El 19/03/15 a las 09:38, Iain Brown Douglas escibió:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or inappropriate) to add 
> > this idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?
> >

I take that as an `inappropriate`, then :)

Iain

[3] http://www.linuxliveusb.com/

> > To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would probe the 
> > capacity of an
> > inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command on
> > confirmation by the user. The command would suit the aspirations of SoaS 
> > Loader [2].
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Iain
> >
> > [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
> > [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader
> >
> > ___
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> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Sebastian Silva]

Hi Iain.

IMHO you'd need to flesh it out some more, the simple conditional you
spec'd out should take an afternoon to code. You need to think of
something that will fit a 5000 US$ developing stipend and/or if you
prefer, a summer's work.

By the way, I am under the impression this is a problem with some GSOC
ideas.

Not saying we should expect major move forward in Sugar from a 3 months
internship. But perhaps you could envision a more complete solution
related to Sugar on a Stick's need (Fedora / Trisquel / future variants).

I find that many people find it hard to burn a USB stick or CD, download
the correct image (heck I don't know where to look). Perhaps a simple
multiplatform disk burner based on unetbootin or suse's imagewriter, or
written from scratch would be really cool, something that will look up
and present the options in SOAS, etc.

This sounds to me like a more complete project but perhaps I'm too
ambitious.

Regards,
Sebastian


El 19/03/15 a las 09:38, Iain Brown Douglas escibió:
> Hi All,
>
> I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or inappropriate) to add this 
> idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?
>
> To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would probe the 
> capacity of an
> inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command on
> confirmation by the user. The command would suit the aspirations of SoaS 
> Loader [2].
>
> Regards,
>
> Iain
>
> [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
> [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader
>
> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Gonzalo Odiard]

Hi Iain!
GSoC project are for 3 months of work for a university student.
Do you think that script imply that amount of work?
What should be the use case? Auto duplicate SoaS?
Reagrds,

Gonzalo

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Iain Brown Douglas <
i...@browndouglas.plus.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or inappropriate) to add
> this idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?
>
> To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would probe the
> capacity of an
> inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command on
> confirmation by the user. The command would suit the aspirations of SoaS
> Loader [2].
>
> Regards,
>
> Iain
>
> [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
> [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader
>
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>



-- 
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[Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Iain Brown Douglas]

Hi All,

I wonder if anyone would think it appropriate (or inappropriate) to add this 
idea to Google Summer of Code [1]?

To write a script for use with Sugar on a Stick, which would probe the capacity 
of an
inserted USB stick,and deliver the livecd-iso-to-disk command on
confirmation by the user. The command would suit the aspirations of SoaS Loader 
[2].

Regards,

Iain

[1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
[2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/SoaS_Loader

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Peter Robinson]

I've added a few ideas that would be very useful for SoaS (and in
general I believe), I hope it's not too late, feel free to
update/edit/change/query.

Peter

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Walter Bender  wrote:
> Sure. Please add them
>
> Measure to GST 1.0 would be good as well.
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Peter Robinson  wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Looking at the GSoC 2015 idea page [1] I'm wondering if it's possible
>> to get some other core items added as part of the sugar core projects?
>>
>> Like:
>> * Covert Record to gtk3 / gstreamer 1
>> * Covert TamTam/Speak etc to CSound 6
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
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>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Walter Bender]

Sure. Please add them

Measure to GST 1.0 would be good as well.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Peter Robinson  wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Looking at the GSoC 2015 idea page [1] I'm wondering if it's possible
> to get some other core items added as part of the sugar core projects?
>
> Like:
> * Covert Record to gtk3 / gstreamer 1
> * Covert TamTam/Speak etc to CSound 6
>
> Peter
>
> [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
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[Sugar-devel] GSoC projects

[Peter Robinson]

Hi All,

Looking at the GSoC 2015 idea page [1] I'm wondering if it's possible
to get some other core items added as part of the sugar core projects?

Like:
* Covert Record to gtk3 / gstreamer 1
* Covert TamTam/Speak etc to CSound 6

Peter

[1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2015
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