Re: [sumo-user] modelling pedestrians correctly

[Menno van der Woude]

Hey Jakob,

maybe it would be possible (and maybe relatively easy?) to implement a 
dedicated pedestrian detector that reports true if any pedestrians are 
inside its area that have not moved the timestep before (or the number 
of those pedestrians). That would be much like an E2 detector. Similar 
to your idea, but not bound to a particular crossing. Or does that not 
accommodate the situation you describe with 4 possible outgoing 
directions? Direction is then typically not important, since pedestrians 
that just crossed will typically walk onward.


The detector could even be generic, a kind of special type of E2 
detector, and just report all waiting/not-moving vehicles inside its 
area - or an option for an E2 detector 'only report waiting vehicles' or 
so. Then again, pedestrians are not actually vehicles, which might 
complicate that idea bit.


Greets, Menno

On 27/08/2019 20:17, Jakob Erdmann wrote:
There is no strong technical reason that prevents E2-detectors from 
handling pedestrians. It might also be useful to configure it for 
detecting pedestrians either in forward, backward or both directions. 
However, that still would not solve the use case of a pedestrian 
push-button.
This is because pedestrians wait on an walkingarea before using a 
crossing and there may be more than 2 directions in which this 
walkingarea is used. At  a junction corner with 2 sidewalks and 2 
crossings, there are actually 4 possible (outgoing) walking directions 
and 2 push-buttons that must be distinguished.


I think it makes more sense to implement a dedicated pedestrian 
detector that can be used to query the number of pedestrians that are 
waiting for a particular crossing (and maybe even combines the 
pedestrians from both sides of the same crossing).
An alternative solutions (maybe more elegant) would be to add a 
function to traci.trafficlights that can report the number of waiting 
pedestrians for a given phase  (by checking all the crossings that 
would turn green in that phase).


regards,
Jakob

Am Di., 27. Aug. 2019 um 10:33 Uhr schrieb Menno van der Woude 
mailto:me...@codingconnected.eu>>:


Hello Jakob,

thanks for your reply.

Is detection of pedestrians by E2 detectors a planned feature? Or
is it just not meant to function that way. Anyway I noticed that
if I use --persontrips true with od2trips, SUMO does not find
connections for pedestrians the way I modeled my network now (with
connections instead of crossings). The simulations reports an
error. So that I'd need to revise the network there anyway.

For now, I will stick with my incorrect approach, since it allows
for much easier detection of pedestrians, with a single TraCI
command. Also I find creating connections somewhat more intuitive
than creating crossings in NETEDIT. It would be nice to be able to
model pedestrians as vehicles, and still have them walk alongside
one another on a sidewalk, maybe even in both directions, instead
of in a line. But that is probably just not a typical use case.

Thanks, greets,

Menno

On 26/08/2019 17:23, Jakob Erdmann wrote:

Hello,
E2-detectors currently cannot detect pedestrians. and the only
way to implement a pedestrian-pushbutton is by checking the
walking direction of the pedestrians explicitly. This is
demonstrated in https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Tutorials/TraCIPedCrossing

Sidewalks should be modelled with a single lane that serves for
both directions. Also, I recommend reading

https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Simulation/Pedestrians#Generating_a_network_with_crossings_and_walkingareas

regards,
Jakob


Am Mo., 26. Aug. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Menno van der Woude
mailto:me...@codingconnected.eu>>:

Dear all,

currently, when modelling pedestrians, I always use 'regular'
edges and connections. This results in warnings (such as
"Warning: Vehicle type '7' with vClass=pedestrian should only
be used for persons and not for vehicle 'ped26'."), and
sometimes pedestrians accidentally end up on the street
(which I can solve by disallowing them). I do nonetheless
because: it allows usage of E2 type detectors to detect
presence of pedestrian-style vehicles, and it is easy to
build the network cause I can just use regular connections.
Pedestrians will stand in line at the intersection, but I am
mostly interested in the general flow of traffic, and there
are generally few pedestrians in the simulation.

However, it would be nice to model the pedestrians more
correctly. I wonder, given an intersection like this:

How can I build the network so that the pedestrians will only
cross from the sidewalk edges on the one side to the sidewalk
edges on the other side, and have a detector (button) on
either side of the crossing? Beause of the way my TraCI

Re: [sumo-user] modelling pedestrians correctly

[Jakob Erdmann]

There is no strong technical reason that prevents E2-detectors from
handling pedestrians. It might also be useful to configure it for detecting
pedestrians either in forward, backward or both directions. However, that
still would not solve the use case of a pedestrian push-button.
This is because pedestrians wait on an walkingarea before using a crossing
and there may be more than 2 directions in which this walkingarea is used.
At  a junction corner with 2 sidewalks and 2 crossings, there are actually
4 possible (outgoing) walking directions and 2 push-buttons that must be
distinguished.

I think it makes more sense to implement a dedicated pedestrian detector
that can be used to query the number of pedestrians that are waiting for a
particular crossing (and maybe even combines the pedestrians from both
sides of the same crossing).
An alternative solutions (maybe more elegant) would be to add a function to
traci.trafficlights that can report the number of waiting pedestrians for a
given phase  (by checking all the crossings that would turn green in that
phase).

regards,
Jakob

Am Di., 27. Aug. 2019 um 10:33 Uhr schrieb Menno van der Woude <
me...@codingconnected.eu>:

> Hello Jakob,
>
> thanks for your reply.
>
> Is detection of pedestrians by E2 detectors a planned feature? Or is it
> just not meant to function that way. Anyway I noticed that if I use
> --persontrips true with od2trips, SUMO does not find connections for
> pedestrians the way I modeled my network now (with connections instead of
> crossings). The simulations reports an error. So that I'd need to revise
> the network there anyway.
>
> For now, I will stick with my incorrect approach, since it allows for much
> easier detection of pedestrians, with a single TraCI command. Also I find
> creating connections somewhat more intuitive than creating crossings in
> NETEDIT. It would be nice to be able to model pedestrians as vehicles, and
> still have them walk alongside one another on a sidewalk, maybe even in
> both directions, instead of in a line. But that is probably just not a
> typical use case.
>
> Thanks, greets,
>
> Menno
> On 26/08/2019 17:23, Jakob Erdmann wrote:
>
> Hello,
> E2-detectors currently cannot detect pedestrians. and the only way to
> implement a pedestrian-pushbutton is by checking the walking direction of
> the pedestrians explicitly. This is demonstrated in
> https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Tutorials/TraCIPedCrossing
>
> Sidewalks should be modelled with a single lane that serves for both
> directions. Also, I recommend reading
> https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Simulation/Pedestrians#Generating_a_network_with_crossings_and_walkingareas
>
> regards,
> Jakob
>
>
> Am Mo., 26. Aug. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Menno van der Woude <
> me...@codingconnected.eu>:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> currently, when modelling pedestrians, I always use 'regular' edges and
>> connections. This results in warnings (such as "Warning: Vehicle type '7'
>> with vClass=pedestrian should only be used for persons and not for vehicle
>> 'ped26'."), and sometimes pedestrians accidentally end up on the street
>> (which I can solve by disallowing them). I do nonetheless because: it
>> allows usage of E2 type detectors to detect presence of pedestrian-style
>> vehicles, and it is easy to build the network cause I can just use regular
>> connections. Pedestrians will stand in line at the intersection, but I am
>> mostly interested in the general flow of traffic, and there are generally
>> few pedestrians in the simulation.
>>
>> However, it would be nice to model the pedestrians more correctly. I
>> wonder, given an intersection like this:
>>
>> How can I build the network so that the pedestrians will only cross from
>> the sidewalk edges on the one side to the sidewalk edges on the other side,
>> and have a detector (button) on either side of the crossing? Beause of the
>> way my TraCI application works, most preferably this would be an E2
>> detector.
>>
>> Should I create sidewalk-edges only in a single direction, since
>> pedestrians can walk in two directions? If so, how to avoid pedestrians
>> that just crossed the intersection from activating the detection?
>>
>> Actually all traffic has detectors, that I did add draw in the above
>> simplified example. A typical intersection may look more like this:
>>
>> And in the simulation like this (note a lot of traffic lights are light
>> blue, and thus actually not controlled):
>>
>> any help is appreciated!
>>
>> Greets, Menno
>> ___
>> sumo-user mailing list
>> sumo-user@eclipse.org
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>> from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/sumo-user
>>
>
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> this list, visithttps://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/sumo-user

Re: [sumo-user] modelling pedestrians correctly

[Menno van der Woude]

Hello Jakob,

thanks for your reply.

Is detection of pedestrians by E2 detectors a planned feature? Or is it 
just not meant to function that way. Anyway I noticed that if I use 
--persontrips true with od2trips, SUMO does not find connections for 
pedestrians the way I modeled my network now (with connections instead 
of crossings). The simulations reports an error. So that I'd need to 
revise the network there anyway.


For now, I will stick with my incorrect approach, since it allows for 
much easier detection of pedestrians, with a single TraCI command. Also 
I find creating connections somewhat more intuitive than creating 
crossings in NETEDIT. It would be nice to be able to model pedestrians 
as vehicles, and still have them walk alongside one another on a 
sidewalk, maybe even in both directions, instead of in a line. But that 
is probably just not a typical use case.


Thanks, greets,

Menno

On 26/08/2019 17:23, Jakob Erdmann wrote:

Hello,
E2-detectors currently cannot detect pedestrians. and the only way to 
implement a pedestrian-pushbutton is by checking the walking direction 
of the pedestrians explicitly. This is demonstrated in 
https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Tutorials/TraCIPedCrossing


Sidewalks should be modelled with a single lane that serves for both 
directions. Also, I recommend reading 
https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Simulation/Pedestrians#Generating_a_network_with_crossings_and_walkingareas


regards,
Jakob


Am Mo., 26. Aug. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Menno van der Woude 
mailto:me...@codingconnected.eu>>:


Dear all,

currently, when modelling pedestrians, I always use 'regular'
edges and connections. This results in warnings (such as "Warning:
Vehicle type '7' with vClass=pedestrian should only be used for
persons and not for vehicle 'ped26'."), and sometimes pedestrians
accidentally end up on the street (which I can solve by
disallowing them). I do nonetheless because: it allows usage of E2
type detectors to detect presence of pedestrian-style vehicles,
and it is easy to build the network cause I can just use regular
connections. Pedestrians will stand in line at the intersection,
but I am mostly interested in the general flow of traffic, and
there are generally few pedestrians in the simulation.

However, it would be nice to model the pedestrians more correctly.
I wonder, given an intersection like this:

How can I build the network so that the pedestrians will only
cross from the sidewalk edges on the one side to the sidewalk
edges on the other side, and have a detector (button) on either
side of the crossing? Beause of the way my TraCI application
works, most preferably this would be an E2 detector.

Should I create sidewalk-edges only in a single direction, since
pedestrians can walk in two directions? If so, how to avoid
pedestrians that just crossed the intersection from activating the
detection?

Actually all traffic has detectors, that I did add draw in the
above simplified example. A typical intersection may look more
like this:

And in the simulation like this (note a lot of traffic lights are
light blue, and thus actually not controlled):

any help is appreciated!

Greets, Menno

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Re: [sumo-user] modelling pedestrians correctly

[Jakob Erdmann]

Hello,
E2-detectors currently cannot detect pedestrians. and the only way to
implement a pedestrian-pushbutton is by checking the walking direction of
the pedestrians explicitly. This is demonstrated in
https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Tutorials/TraCIPedCrossing

Sidewalks should be modelled with a single lane that serves for both
directions. Also, I recommend reading
https://sumo.dlr.de/wiki/Simulation/Pedestrians#Generating_a_network_with_crossings_and_walkingareas

regards,
Jakob


Am Mo., 26. Aug. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Menno van der Woude <
me...@codingconnected.eu>:

> Dear all,
>
> currently, when modelling pedestrians, I always use 'regular' edges and
> connections. This results in warnings (such as "Warning: Vehicle type '7'
> with vClass=pedestrian should only be used for persons and not for vehicle
> 'ped26'."), and sometimes pedestrians accidentally end up on the street
> (which I can solve by disallowing them). I do nonetheless because: it
> allows usage of E2 type detectors to detect presence of pedestrian-style
> vehicles, and it is easy to build the network cause I can just use regular
> connections. Pedestrians will stand in line at the intersection, but I am
> mostly interested in the general flow of traffic, and there are generally
> few pedestrians in the simulation.
>
> However, it would be nice to model the pedestrians more correctly. I
> wonder, given an intersection like this:
>
> How can I build the network so that the pedestrians will only cross from
> the sidewalk edges on the one side to the sidewalk edges on the other side,
> and have a detector (button) on either side of the crossing? Beause of the
> way my TraCI application works, most preferably this would be an E2
> detector.
>
> Should I create sidewalk-edges only in a single direction, since
> pedestrians can walk in two directions? If so, how to avoid pedestrians
> that just crossed the intersection from activating the detection?
>
> Actually all traffic has detectors, that I did add draw in the above
> simplified example. A typical intersection may look more like this:
>
> And in the simulation like this (note a lot of traffic lights are light
> blue, and thus actually not controlled):
>
> any help is appreciated!
>
> Greets, Menno
> ___
> sumo-user mailing list
> sumo-user@eclipse.org
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
> from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/sumo-user
>
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