RE: The Bill Gottesman stance

[Jack Aubert]

Also note that the center of the body runs down more or less through the heels. 
 So the heals (or possibly the insteps) rather than  the toes should be lined 
on the date.  

 

Any more precision and we will need 5 minute lines!

 

Jack 

 

From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Bill Gottesman
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 4:13 PM
To: Robert Terwilliger
Cc: Sundials List
Subject: Re: The Bill Gottesman stance

 

I say we tack on as many names as possible.  Roger Bailey told me a few years 
ago he reported on this stance independently.  -Bill

 

On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Robert Terwilliger  wrote:

I have always been of the opinion that the optimal stance to assume as the 
gnomon of an analamatic sundial is to stand with one’s back to the sun with 
arms raised and palms together thus forming an arrow. What has been referred to 
as “The Gottesman Stance” would certainly be  a significant improvement.

 

I’m sure my friend Bill will agree with me that hereinafter in the literature 
the combination should be referred to as “The Terwilliger/Gottesman Stance”.

 

What say you?

 

ò¿ó¬

 ~

Bob

 

 

 

  

 

The Gottesman stance 


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-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and 
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Re: The Bill Gottesman stance

[Bill Gottesman]

I say we tack on as many names as possible.  Roger Bailey told me a few
years ago he reported on this stance independently.  -Bill


On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Robert Terwilliger wrote:

>  I have always been of the opinion that the optimal stance to assume as
> the gnomon of an analamatic sundial is to stand with one’s back to the sun
> with arms raised and palms together thus forming an arrow. What has been
> referred to as “The Gottesman Stance” would certainly be  a significant
> improvement.
>
>
>
> I’m sure my friend Bill will agree with me that hereinafter in the
> literature the combination should be referred to as “The
> Terwilliger/Gottesman Stance”.
>
>
>
> What say you?
>
>
>
> ò¿ó¬
>
>  ~
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Gottesman stance
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
>
---
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Re: R: RV: Greenwich Meridei Redux

[rmallett]

On 09/05/2014 22:40, sun.di...@libero.it wrote:


Inspired by Miguel's idea, a new "path" has been created in Sundial 
Atlas that includes all the registered dials placed between 0.1 
degrees west and 0.1 degrees east.


They can be seen by accessing SA site at http://www.sundialatlas.eu or 
using the app for Android "Sundial Atlas Mobile" available at 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=gian.gnomonica.SundialAtlasMobile.


A snapshot of the map is here attached for evidence.


The name of the path is "Greenwich Meridian sundials".

It now contains 120 dials but whoever can contribute by registering 
new dials and adding them to the path.


The only requirement is to register to SA (it's absolutely free) and 
then clicking on "offer your collaboration on this path" when in the 
path page.



Please do not hesitate to contact me or Fabio Savian for any 
additional explanation you may require.



Greetings.

Gian Casalegno



Thank you so much for this.  I hope that many more dials will be added, 
and that people will follow the meridian trail!




--
--
Richard Mallett
Eaton Bray, Dunstable
South Beds. UK

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The Bill Gottesman stance

[Robert Terwilliger]

I have always been of the opinion that the optimal stance to assume as the
gnomon of an analamatic sundial is to stand with one’s back to the sun with
arms raised and palms together thus forming an arrow. What has been referred
to as “The Gottesman Stance” would certainly be  a significant improvement.

 

I’m sure my friend Bill will agree with me that hereinafter in the
literature the combination should be referred to as “The
Terwilliger/Gottesman Stance”.

 

What say you?

 

ò¿ó¬

 ~

Bob

 

 

 

  

 

The Gottesman stance 

---
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Copyright rules

[Sunclocks North America]

Hello everyone,
  Thank you to everyone who contributed to this discussion, as I found it to be 
quite interesting as well as educational.

Hi Steve,
  I appreciate your reply.  I hadn't realized that the file had been put into 
the public domain by Douglas Hunt, but either way, the GNU license states that 
the author of the work must nevertheless be attributed to the author.

  I am rather stunned by the change in UK copyright laws, for which the article 
you linked to suggested that the law was illegal under the Berne convention and 
mentioned that the UK could expect a "firestorm" of international litigation if 
the law went ahead.  As they say, "It's as if Britain decided it owned Disney, 
and let anybody pirate the company's DVDs while it keeps the proceeds".  Can 
you confirm whether or not the law did eventually pass, and if so, has the 
"firestorm" of litigation started?
Thank you,
Paul Ratto
SunClocks North America
438-792-4823
www.sunclocks.net

On May 10, 2014, at 08:49, Steve Lelievre  
wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> 
> On 09/05/2014 7:45 PM, Sunclocks North America wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>>  [ snip]  Being from Canada, as you are, do you know if our laws are similar 
>> to those in the USA, and do you know what rules apply to images being used 
>> outside of North America?
> 
> We amended our copyright law in 2012 and Canada and USA have very similar 
> rules. Yours are marginally more favourable to the user of an image, whereas 
> ours are a bit more favourable to the copyright owner. We have some fairly 
> nasty penalties that apply if a person, even unknowingly, infringes on 
> electronic anti-copying mechanisms for digital materials.
> 
>> [snip] I'm not the actual owner or creator of the image.
> 
> That changes things substantially. As Frank King discovered and indicated in 
> his reply, the actual copyright owner did give permission to the newspaper to 
> use the image, by virtue of the public licence. The fact that you're using it 
> doesn't preclude use by others, and my discussion of Fair Dealing is made 
> redundant.
> 
> 
> Everyone, 
> 
> I just discovered that in 2013, the was a change in UK law that affects 
> copyright of images. A one-sided discussion: 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/29/err_act_landgrab/
> 
> In summary, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act has provisions that 
> relate to so-called Orphan Works. Basically, if someone finds an image on the 
> web and cannot identify the copyright owner, they are free to use the work. 
> There has to be a "reasonable" attempt to try to contact the owner, but 
> unless you mark your images very clearly as yours then your ownership is at 
> risk. You might have your name and contact details on your website but for 
> example if somebody rips your image onto a site with no contact information, 
> or embeds it in an email from a non-defunct email address , then reasonable 
> efforts to find the owner will fail and the image can then be used freely.
> 
> So, it seems that if you have a valuable image that you want to post online 
> for some reason, you should think twice. If you choose to proceed, watermark 
> it with a copyright statement and contact details, or edit the metadata 
> (non-visible image file attributes) to include owner details. Even then, 
> watch out as your favourite photo-sharing website may strip your metadata out 
> of images you upload, replacing it with their own.
> 
> If ownership details get seperated from the image, you risk a person or 
> business in the UK taking it and use it however they like. Most of us aren't 
> great photographers but I've seen some lovely sundial images on the web too. 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Thank you,
>> Paul Ratto
>> SunClocks North America
>> 438-792-4823
>> www.sunclocks.net
>> 
>> On May 9, 2014, at 18:15, Steve Lelievre  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 09/05/2014 5:08 PM, Sunclocks North America wrote:
 Also, I was wondering if anybody could tell me what are the typical 
 requirements for people to be allowed to use random copyrighted images 
 from the internet, and what my rights and possible recourses are in such 
 cases of the unauthorized use of my logo.
 
>>> 
>>> Hi Paul,
>>> 
>>> My experience is in the context of academic use of materials under Canadian 
>>> law, so what follows is not offered in an expert or professional capacity 
>>> and is not qualified legal opinion.
>>>
>>> Copyright law is complex  and full fo special cases. Although there are 
>>> treaties that establish a general framework, the details vary from country 
>>> to country. Generally, the owner of the copyright is entitled to set terms 
>>> of use including fees before a copy can be made. However, in some 
>>> circumstances the principle of Fair Dealing, called Fair Use in the USA, 
>>> allows copying without permission of, or compensation for, the copyright 
>>> owner. Whether Fair Dealing applies is influenced by various criteria: the 
>>> consequences

Re: Cambridge News article on Human Sundial unveiling

[Sunclocks North America]

Hi Frank,
  Thank you form the additional details, as I hadn't realized that the image 
had been posted to Wikimedia Commons, thereby making it public domain.  Anyhow, 
I see that the GNU license states that the author of the work must nevertheless 
be attributed, which as I understand is similar to the fair use rules for 
Copytighted files, so this shouldn't really change much when it comes to using 
the image in such cases.
  In regards to the "Bill Gottesman stance", it's an interesting concept, but 
it seems to me that the narrow triangle of light formed in this manner would be 
so short as to preclude any kind of precision in the reading of the time.  Is 
this not correct?
  Lastly, having been present, would you have any actual images of the sundial 
that was unveiled at unveiled on Cambridge's Jesus Green?
Thank you,
Paul Ratto
SunClocks North America
438-792-4823
www.sunclocks.net

On May 10, 2014, at 06:27, Frank King  wrote:

> Dear Paul,
> 
> Many thanks for your note on the use of
> your Business Logo by a local Newspaper
> here in Cambridge.
> 
> I very much take all your points.  I also
> echo Steve Lelievre's comments.
> 
> If you use someone else's photograph,
> drawing or idea, then you should say
> so even if the person is long dead and
> the material is out of Copyright.
> 
> In the case of your business logo I
> took a look at:
> 
>  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Analemmatic_%28Human_Sundial%29.png
> 
> As you say in a follow-up, the author
> of this image is Douglas Hunt.  The
> "permission status" is that it has
> been released under the GNU Free
> Documentation License.
> 
> I guess that is all a Newspaper would
> want to know.  This image seems to be
> free for anyone to use anyway they
> like.
> 
> The permission status seems to allow
> you to modify the image too.  As far
> as I can tell, you COULD follow up
> Mac Oglesby's suggestion.  As ever,
> he makes good sense!  While you are
> at it you could have the user taking
> up the Bill Gottesman stance (which
> I explain below).
> 
> Of course, you should acknowledge all
> three of Douglas, Mac and Bill.  I
> would myself!
> 
> The GNU agreement for this kind of
> permission status adds:
> 
>  Content in the public domain may not
>  have a strict legal requirement of
>  attribution ... but attribution is
>  recommended to give correct provenance.
> 
> I would certainly give attribution if
> I used this image and it would be to
> Douglas Hunt.  I am not quite sure
> what your agreement is with him...
> 
> On the  sunclocks.net  home page there
> is no mention of Douglas Hunt against
> the image.  Shouldn't there be?
> 
> Alas, I still do not know much about
> this new sundial.  I was present at
> the opening, in pouring rain, and
> no one I spoke to had the slightest
> understanding of sundials.  No one
> could answer any of my questions
> about the designer and/or maker.
> 
> The idea seems to have been that of
> Vernon McElroy who died in 2012.  I
> don't know whether he actually came
> up with a drawing but I gather that
> he did have some understanding of
> sundials.
> 
> I have heard that the stones were cut
> by a company in York, England, but
> they just did as asked.
> 
> I spoke to the guy who laid the stones
> but he was just following a drawing.
> He didn't know what he was doing or
> where the design came from!
> 
> There is something much more worrying
> about this story than merely using
> your business Logo without any kind
> of citation...
> 
> At a cursory glance, the whole design
> seems to be an implementation of the
> Douglas Hunt image.  The actual sundial
> includes the outer ring running from
> 7 to 6 rather than from 6 to 6.  To
> be sure Roman Numerals are used but
> otherwise it looks like your Logo.
> 
> You ask about the "Bill Gottesman stance".
> 
> This is a rather frivolous example of my
> own pedantry when it comes to citations!
> 
> When I was at the NASS Asheville meeting
> in 2012, Bill explained that when using
> an analemmatic sundial, you should stand
> with your feet just a few inches apart.
> You then turn so that, through the shadows
> of your legs, you get a very narrow triangle
> of light on the ground.  The tip of the
> triangle indicates the time.
> 
> This is a very simple idea but it wasn't
> mine!!  Maybe it wasn't Bill's either?
> 
> Frank King
> Cambridge, U.K.
> 

---
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Re: The GPS zero meridian club

[rmallett]

On 30/04/2014 17:37, Douglas Bateman wrote:

This is a new club consisting, so far, of two members: Frank King and myself.

After the successful British Sundial Society conference, the Sunday morning was 
allocated to tours of the Greenwich Observatory. Quite independently, Frank and 
I had the intention of location the WGS84 meridian, some 90m east of the 
Greenwich brass strip.  Frank had an eTrex tracker and an app on his mobile 
phone, and I had an Axxera GPS tracker linked to my iPad.

The images, if the system will let them through, show 0º 0' 0".  Anyone else 
willing to join this new exclusive club? Plenty of places to straddle the line 
between the north pole and the south pole.

Doug (and Frank)


I have been looking up the reviews on Android GPS apps (though many of 
the comments are generally applicable) and it seems that (unless you use 
surveying equipment, or you are in the armed forces) up to ten metres 
accuracy is about the best that you can expect.


GPS Test for Android  or GPS Status for Apple (more limited - apparently 
Apple releases fewer secrets to developers) seem to be recommended to 
see how accurate you are.  I guess, when you use those, the more dots 
you get near the centre of the circle, the better ?


Apparently you should spin the device on three axes (preferably more 
than once each) to get a better fix (you need to get at least 4 
satellites, preferably 6-9).  This seems to work for most people, much 
better than waving in a figure of eight motion.


If you travel, wait until you're outside (away from buildings, vehicles 
and trees) before you try to get a fix, so that it can learn the new 
location more quickly.


Any other hints and tips ?

Here are my results (indoors, and without spinning) from a few free 
Android apps :-


Mobiwia GPS Status & Toolbox Lat. 51°52.68' N 0°35.71' W (third decimal 
place changing)
GPS Status Test & Fix Lat. 51.878° N 0.595° W (fourth decimal place 
changing)

GPS Averaging Lat. 51°52.68' N 0°35.71' W (third decimal place changing)
Sciencewithandroid Precision GPS 51°52'41'' N 0°35'43'' W (first decimal 
place changing)


So it seems that you can probably get precision of 0.001° or 0.01' or 1" 
which seems pretty good to me for free apps.



--
--
Richard Mallett
Eaton Bray, Dunstable
South Beds. UK

---
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Using the moon to find south

[Steve Lelievre]

Hi folks,

Only loosely related to my question just posted, I'm interested to know 
more about a primative navigation method I've read of. The idea is that 
if one projects an imaginary line through the cusps of a crescent moon 
down to the horizon, that gives the approximate position of South (or 
perhaps North depending on your hemisphere).


How accurate is this position compared to true south? I'm guessing it 
depends on the time of year, phase of moon and latitude - can any one 
supply formulae? Working it out from first principles is beyond my math 
ability.


I'm thinking that if I can use the moon to find south, I can then 
measure the azimuth of the sun and use that to get time of day...


Thanks,
Steve





---
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Altitude dials as compasses

[Steve Lelievre]

Hello, everyone,

A recent NASS Compendium included an article on the use of a Shepherd's 
Dial as a compass. The author reported orientation errors in field use 
of up to 25 degrees in the hour either side of noon but 5 degrees or 
less in other parts of the day. This is consistent with my findings from 
with a similar dial that I tested last summer (although I didn't manage 
quite the same accuracy in the non-noon period).


I'm currently designing a Capuchin dial adapted to a compass, but am not 
expecting it to do well near noon either.  The idea of portable solar 
compasses based on altitude measurement is appealing because there is no 
need to know time of day, but it seems inevitable that they're not going 
to function well around midday while the sun hangs in the sky with 
minimal change in altitude.


Am I missing some potential cleverness - given that I want a portable 
dial with no need for a watch to determine time, would any other type of 
dial be less prone to midday orientation errors? Are they particular 
adaptions could be used to improve accuracy?


Cheers,
Steve


Herty, Frank B. (2014). A Shepherd's Azimuth Dial. The Compendium 
[Journal of the North American Sundial Society], 21(1).

---
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Re: Cambridge News article on Human Sundial unveiling

[Steve Lelievre]

Hi Paul,

On 09/05/2014 7:45 PM, Sunclocks North America wrote:

Hi Steve,
 [ snip]  Being from Canada, as you are, do you know if our laws are 
similar to those in the USA, and do you know what rules apply to 
images being used outside of North America?


We amended our copyright law in 2012 and Canada and USA have very 
similar rules. Yours are marginally more favourable to the user of an 
image, whereas ours are a bit more favourable to the copyright owner. We 
have some fairly nasty penalties that apply if a person, even 
unknowingly, infringes on electronic anti-copying mechanisms for digital 
materials.



[snip] I'm not the actual owner or creator of the image.


That changes things substantially. As Frank King discovered and 
indicated in his reply, the actual copyright owner did give permission 
to the newspaper to use the image, by virtue of the public licence. The 
fact that you're using it doesn't preclude use by others, and my 
discussion of Fair Dealing is made redundant.



Everyone,

I just discovered that in 2013, the was a change in UK law that affects 
copyright of images. A one-sided discussion: 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/29/err_act_landgrab/


In summary, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act has provisions that 
relate to so-called Orphan Works. Basically, if someone finds an image 
on the web and cannot identify the copyright owner, they are free to use 
the work. There has to be a "reasonable" attempt to try to contact the 
owner, but unless you mark your images very clearly as yours then your 
ownership is at risk. You might have your name and contact details on 
your website but for example if somebody rips your image onto a site 
with no contact information, or embeds it in an email from a non-defunct 
email address , then reasonable efforts to find the owner will fail and 
the image can then be used freely.


So, it seems that if you have a valuable image that you want to post 
online for some reason, you should think twice. If you choose to 
proceed, watermark it with a copyright statement and contact details, or 
edit the metadata (non-visible image file attributes) to include owner 
details. Even then, watch out as your favourite photo-sharing website 
may strip your metadata out of images you upload, replacing it with 
their own.


If ownership details get seperated from the image, you risk a person or 
business in the UK taking it and use it however they like. Most of us 
aren't great photographers but I've seen some lovely sundial images on 
the web too.


Steve














Thank you,
Paul Ratto
SunClocks North America
438-792-4823
www.sunclocks.net 

On May 9, 2014, at 18:15, Steve Lelievre 
> wrote:



On 09/05/2014 5:08 PM, Sunclocks North America wrote:
Also, I was wondering if anybody could tell me what are the typical 
requirements for people to be allowed to use random copyrighted 
images from the internet, and what my rights and possible recourses 
are in such cases of the unauthorized use of my logo.




Hi Paul,

My experience is in the context of academic use of materials under 
Canadian law, so what follows is not offered in an expert or 
professional capacity and is not qualified legal opinion.


Copyright law is complex  and full fo special cases. Although there 
are treaties that establish a general framework, the details vary 
from country to country. Generally, the owner of the copyright is 
entitled to set terms of use including fees before a copy can be 
made. However, in some circumstances the principle of Fair Dealing, 
called Fair Use in the USA, allows copying without permission of, or 
compensation for, the copyright owner. Whether Fair Dealing applies 
is influenced by various criteria: the consequences (has the owner 
lost income or reputation), the extent of the copying, the use made 
of the copy or copies, the benefit gained by the person doing the 
copying, and other factors, as well as precedent and case law. In the 
event of a claim going to court, damages are assessed depending on 
how unfair the copying was.


Although people sometimes assume otherwise, the mere posting of an 
image on the Internet by the copyright owner does not transfer the 
imagine into the public domain. Any subsequent copying must either be 
with consent or be allowed under Fair Dealing. As well, there is no 
requirement for the copyright owner to include a copyright caption or 
watermark with the image (but doing so certainly helps demonstrate 
that you do want to protect your rights).


In the present instance, the copying was done by a newspaper. In most 
countries News Reporting is accepted as a situation where Fair 
Dealing generally applies, subject to there being no gross abuse of 
other criteria. The newpaper in question is probably so used to this 
arrangement that they don't even think about it case by case. 
However, even if this was Fair Dealing, they're in the wrong in at 
l

Re: Cambridge News article on Human Sundial unveiling

[Frank King]

Dear Paul,

Many thanks for your note on the use of
your Business Logo by a local Newspaper
here in Cambridge.

I very much take all your points.  I also
echo Steve Lelievre's comments.

If you use someone else's photograph,
drawing or idea, then you should say
so even if the person is long dead and
the material is out of Copyright.

In the case of your business logo I
took a look at:

  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Analemmatic_%28Human_Sundial%29.png

As you say in a follow-up, the author
of this image is Douglas Hunt.  The
"permission status" is that it has
been released under the GNU Free
Documentation License.

I guess that is all a Newspaper would
want to know.  This image seems to be
free for anyone to use anyway they
like.

The permission status seems to allow
you to modify the image too.  As far
as I can tell, you COULD follow up
Mac Oglesby's suggestion.  As ever,
he makes good sense!  While you are
at it you could have the user taking
up the Bill Gottesman stance (which
I explain below).

Of course, you should acknowledge all
three of Douglas, Mac and Bill.  I
would myself!

The GNU agreement for this kind of
permission status adds:

  Content in the public domain may not
  have a strict legal requirement of
  attribution ... but attribution is
  recommended to give correct provenance.

I would certainly give attribution if
I used this image and it would be to
Douglas Hunt.  I am not quite sure
what your agreement is with him...

On the  sunclocks.net  home page there
is no mention of Douglas Hunt against
the image.  Shouldn't there be?

Alas, I still do not know much about
this new sundial.  I was present at
the opening, in pouring rain, and
no one I spoke to had the slightest
understanding of sundials.  No one
could answer any of my questions
about the designer and/or maker.

The idea seems to have been that of
Vernon McElroy who died in 2012.  I
don't know whether he actually came
up with a drawing but I gather that
he did have some understanding of
sundials.

I have heard that the stones were cut
by a company in York, England, but
they just did as asked.

I spoke to the guy who laid the stones
but he was just following a drawing.
He didn't know what he was doing or
where the design came from!

There is something much more worrying
about this story than merely using
your business Logo without any kind
of citation...

At a cursory glance, the whole design
seems to be an implementation of the
Douglas Hunt image.  The actual sundial
includes the outer ring running from
7 to 6 rather than from 6 to 6.  To
be sure Roman Numerals are used but
otherwise it looks like your Logo.

You ask about the "Bill Gottesman stance".

This is a rather frivolous example of my
own pedantry when it comes to citations!

When I was at the NASS Asheville meeting
in 2012, Bill explained that when using
an analemmatic sundial, you should stand
with your feet just a few inches apart.
You then turn so that, through the shadows
of your legs, you get a very narrow triangle
of light on the ground.  The tip of the
triangle indicates the time.

This is a very simple idea but it wasn't
mine!!  Maybe it wasn't Bill's either?

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
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