Re: Denizli sundial
Karlheinz-- I don't claim to be a Greek-scholar, but, now that you mention it, that could be a theta at the beginning of the word along the Summer-Solstice line. . But I just don't find the iota and sigma at the beginning of the word along the equinox line. . But none of that even matters if, as you said, it isn't even a 2000-year-old dial, and is only from the Roman era. What a disappointment. But thanks for pointing it out anyway. . Michael Ossipoff Aprilis 10th, 2020 Aries 22nd 16 F . On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:27 AM Karlheinz Schaldach < karlheinz_schald...@t-online.de> wrote: > I would like to add two arguments to the questions under discussion*:* > > 1. Prof. Şimşek said: “On the North Parados passage in the Western > Theater, which dates back to the Hellenistic Era, in the ancient city we > have found a spherical sundial facing south, which we believe to be 2,020 > years old. > > This is a kind of conclusion which does not help by dating the dial. A > comparison with similar specimens reveals that it was probably done around > 200 – 400 CE. > > 2. “Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on > the upper part; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day > and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom.” > > I read (ΤΡΟΠH) ΧΕ(Ι)ΜΕΡΙΝH / IΣΗΜΕΡΙΝH / (ΤΡΟΠH) ΘΕΡΙΝH. > > These are the names of the solstices and the equinoxes. What is > conspicuous is the missing of I in χειμερινή (it should be written with > diacritic signs). That is another strong argument that it was done in the > Roman era. > > With best wishes > > Karlheinz Schaldach > > *From:* Michael Ossipoff > *Sent:* Friday, April 10, 2020 5:11 AM > *To:* Maes, F.W. > *Cc:* Sundial List > *Subject:* Re: Denizli sundial > > >> "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the >> upper part >> > > No doubt "Merini" referring to "day", related to "Mera", meaning "Day", > combined with "Xi-", which must mean something like "longest". > > ; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in >> the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." >> > > The middle line is for the equinoxes, not a solstice. > > If it says "Isimerini", then that combines "-merini", referreing to "Day", > and something obviously likely to be related to "Iso-" which we all know to > mean "same" or "equal". > > >> Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the >> initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi) >> > > Yes, that column of horizontal lines is the Greek capital "Ksee" (as > pronounced in English). The lower case would look like a more or less > vertical squiggly line. It's pronounced like our English "X". > > Yes, the Greek letter written as "X", is pronounced like aspirated "k", as > in "Loch" or "Achtung". ...and its name "chi", is pronounced in English > with that consonant-sound, though we often hear it said as just a "k". > > I didn't notice the "T" in the word on the Summer-Solstice line. > > It looked. to me, just like Merine on the top 2 lines, and Erini on the > bottom--line. > > Michael Ossipoff > Aprilis 10th, 2020 > Aries 22nd > 16 F > > You wrote: > > , in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. > > So it seems the names are spelled as follows: > XIMEPINH = winter solstice > IΣHMEPINH = equinox > TEPINH = summer solstice > in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. > > -- > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Denizli sundial
I would like to add two arguments to the questions under discussion: 1. Prof. Şimşek said: “On the North Parados passage in the Western Theater, which dates back to the Hellenistic Era, in the ancient city we have found a spherical sundial facing south, which we believe to be 2,020 years old. This is a kind of conclusion which does not help by dating the dial. A comparison with similar specimens reveals that it was probably done around 200 – 400 CE. 2. “Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the upper part; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom.” I read (ΤΡΟΠH) ΧΕ(Ι)ΜΕΡΙΝH / IΣΗΜΕΡΙΝH / (ΤΡΟΠH) ΘΕΡΙΝH. These are the names of the solstices and the equinoxes. What is conspicuous is the missing of I in χειμερινή (it should be written with diacritic signs). That is another strong argument that it was done in the Roman era. With best wishes Karlheinz Schaldach From: Michael Ossipoff Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:11 AM To: Maes, F.W. Cc: Sundial List Subject: Re: Denizli sundial "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the upper part No doubt "Merini" referring to "day", related to "Mera", meaning "Day", combined with "Xi-", which must mean something like "longest". ; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." The middle line is for the equinoxes, not a solstice. If it says "Isimerini", then that combines "-merini", referreing to "Day", and something obviously likely to be related to "Iso-" which we all know to mean "same" or "equal". Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi) Yes, that column of horizontal lines is the Greek capital "Ksee" (as pronounced in English). The lower case would look like a more or less vertical squiggly line. It's pronounced like our English "X". Yes, the Greek letter written as "X", is pronounced like aspirated "k", as in "Loch" or "Achtung". ...and its name "chi", is pronounced in English with that consonant-sound, though we often hear it said as just a "k". I didn't notice the "T" in the word on the Summer-Solstice line. It looked. to me, just like Merine on the top 2 lines, and Erini on the bottom--line. Michael Ossipoff Aprilis 10th, 2020 Aries 22nd 16 F You wrote: , in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. So it seems the names are spelled as follows: XIMEPINH = winter solstice IΣHMEPINH = equinox TEPINH = summer solstice in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Denizli sundial
> > "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the > upper part > No doubt "Merini" referring to "day", related to "Mera", meaning "Day", combined with "Xi-", which must mean something like "longest". ; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in > the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." > The middle line is for the equinoxes, not a solstice. If it says "Isimerini", then that combines "-merini", referreing to "Day", and something obviously likely to be related to "Iso-" which we all know to mean "same" or "equal". > Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the > initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi) > Yes, that column of horizontal lines is the Greek capital "Ksee" (as pronounced in English). The lower case would look like a more or less vertical squiggly line. It's pronounced like our English "X". Yes, the Greek letter written as "X", is pronounced like aspirated "k", as in "Loch" or "Achtung". ...and its name "chi", is pronounced in English with that consonant-sound, though we often hear it said as just a "k". I didn't notice the "T" in the word on the Summer-Solstice line. It looked. to me, just like Merine on the top 2 lines, and Erini on the bottom--line. Michael Ossipoff Aprilis 10th, 2020 Aries 22nd 16 F You wrote: , in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. So it seems the names are spelled as follows: XIMEPINH = winter solstice IΣHMEPINH = equinox TEPINH = summer solstice in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Denizli sundial
A report on: https://indiablooms.com/travel-details/N/1164/2-000-year-old-sundial-recovered-in-turkey-s-anatolia.html says the following: "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the upper part; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi), in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. So it seems the names are spelled as follows: XIMEPINH = winter solstice IΣHMEPINH = equinox TEPINH = summer solstice in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. A photo further down the article shows clearly that the front is cut away. Best regards, Frans Maes On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:54 AM John Davis wrote: > Dear Frans, > > The picture that Dan-George pointed us to is excellent and intriguing too. > My reading of the lettering is slightly different from yours. Starting from > the top (presumably the winter solstice), I get > > X I M E P I N H >H M E P I N H >E P IN H > > where the columns represent the spaces between the hour lines. There could > be some misreadings here. It is clearly not the standard Greek system of > using the first letters of their alphabet as numbers but I don’t recognise > the names of the seasons either. Looking through Sharon Gibbs’ book, I > couldn’t find a similar set of inscriptions. Can any classical scholars > help us? > > As a second point, the front face of the marble looks to be vertical in > the photo but I found another view online which seems to show it cut back > at an oblique angle. Both forms of dial are known - which is this? > > Regards, > > John > — > Dr J Davis > Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ > BSS Editor http://sundialsoc.org.uk/publications/the-bss-bulletin/ > > > On 8 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Maes, F.W. wrote: > > Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe > dial. > The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can > read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and > solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? > > Keep healthy! > Frans Maes > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: > >> Thank you, it looks great! >> Roser Raluy >> >> Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 >> d’abr. 2020 a les 10:12: >> >>> Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in >>> Turkey. >>> >>> >>> https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- >>> Dan-George Uza >>> --- >>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >>> >>> --- >> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >> >> --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Denizli sundial
Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe dial. The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? Keep healthy! Frans Maes On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: > Thank you, it looks great! > Roser Raluy > > Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 > d’abr. 2020 a les 10:12: > >> Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. >> >> >> https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- >> Dan-George Uza >> --- >> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >> >> --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Denizli sundial
Thank you, it looks great! Roser Raluy Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 d’abr. 2020 a les 10:12: > Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. > > > https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli > > Best regards, > > -- > Dan-George Uza > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Denizli sundial
Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli Best regards, -- Dan-George Uza --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
