Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 5/14/10 8:45 AM, Ray_Net wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote:
>> On 5/13/10 12:18 PM, Ray_Net wrote:
>>> David E. Ross a écrit :
 On 5/13/10 5:43 AM, Russ Hunt wrote:
> On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net
> wrote:
>> Russ Hunt wrote:
>>> Well.
 I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
 if that helps you.  -JW
>>
>>> Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
>>> that?
>>
>> in SM browser, type the url   about:config
>> then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
>> then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6
>
> Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
> with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
> I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
> as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
> going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
> decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
> occurring more frequently.

 The problem is not in SeaMonkey.  The pronblem is that some Web servers
 deliver different Web pages based on what browser you are using,
 detecting your browser by what is called "sniffing".  Further, many
 servers sniff incorrectly, looking for "Firefox" when they should look
 for "Gecko".

 What you have done is make those servers think you are using Firefox.
 This is called "spoofing".  By spoofing, you are compounding the problem
 by not telling other servers that SeaMonkey is not being used.  This
 will eventually lead to other Web developers to think that there is no
 need to provide for SeaMonkey when they sniff.  This puts all SeaMonkey
 users at a disadvantage.

 The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:

 1.  Use an extension that allows you to spoof another browser when
 necessary but also eliminates spoofing at other times.  Such extensions
 include PrefBar and UserAgentSwitcher.  They automatically eliminate
 spoofing whenever you launch SeaMonkey.

 2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox but not with
 SeaMonkey.  Inform them that they are blocking the use of Gecko-based
 browsers that are not Firefox.  Refer them to
    and thus losing
 potential audience.

>>> Most of the time webmaster would not change what he have done ... one
>>> reason is because IE is IE, FireFox is FireFox, and Seamonkey is *not*
>>> Seamonkey , but Gecko ... nobody knowns that Gecko is a browser ... the
>>> webmaster snif for a known list of browser ... Gecko ? what is that ? ...
>>
>> I suggest you actually read
>> .  Firefox is
>> also Gecko.  The Firefox developers state that it is wrong to sniff for
>> "Firefox".  When sniffing can be justified, the server should sniff for
>> "Gecko" even for Firefox browsers.
>>
> 
> I undersand that, but most of the webmasters snif for IE or FireFox or 
> Opera, etc ... i never seen a webmaster sniffing for Gecko ... and in 
> any tutorial .. Gecko sniffing is never present.
> 

Web sites that sniff for "Firefox" and not "Gecko" are the subjects of
bug reports.  The tracking bug for those reports is #334967 at
.

That tracking bug was started by Firefox developers, not by SeaMonkey
developers or users.  Sniffing for "Firefox" causes problems with
testing Firefox nightlies and alphas, which do not necessarily have
"Firefox" in their user agent strings.

Besids SeaMonkey, this affects Camino (a Gecko-based browser for Macs),
might affect Fennec (a Gecko-based browser for mobile communication
devices such as Web-capable cell phones), and probably affects other
non-Firefox browsers.

Boris Zbarsky said in comment #4 of bug #334967:
> Frankly, I think that if sites are sniffing for Firefox and not Gecko, that's
> something that's quite bad from the Mozilla Foundation's point of view. Or
> ought to be.  

There are now 147 open bugs tracked by bug #334967.  There are also 53
bugs that were tracked but are now resolved.  This means that 53 mostly
commercial Web sites that used to sniff for "Firefox" (or worse, worked
only for IE) now don't sniff at all (the best solution) or at least
sniff for "Gecko".

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Ray_Net]

David E. Ross wrote:

On 5/13/10 12:18 PM, Ray_Net wrote:

David E. Ross a écrit :

On 5/13/10 5:43 AM, Russ Hunt wrote:

On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net
wrote:

Russ Hunt wrote:

Well.

I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
if that helps you.  -JW



Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
that?


in SM browser, type the url   about:config
then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6


Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
occurring more frequently.


The problem is not in SeaMonkey.  The pronblem is that some Web servers
deliver different Web pages based on what browser you are using,
detecting your browser by what is called "sniffing".  Further, many
servers sniff incorrectly, looking for "Firefox" when they should look
for "Gecko".

What you have done is make those servers think you are using Firefox.
This is called "spoofing".  By spoofing, you are compounding the problem
by not telling other servers that SeaMonkey is not being used.  This
will eventually lead to other Web developers to think that there is no
need to provide for SeaMonkey when they sniff.  This puts all SeaMonkey
users at a disadvantage.

The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:

1.  Use an extension that allows you to spoof another browser when
necessary but also eliminates spoofing at other times.  Such extensions
include PrefBar and UserAgentSwitcher.  They automatically eliminate
spoofing whenever you launch SeaMonkey.

2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox but not with
SeaMonkey.  Inform them that they are blocking the use of Gecko-based
browsers that are not Firefox.  Refer them to
   and thus losing
potential audience.


Most of the time webmaster would not change what he have done ... one
reason is because IE is IE, FireFox is FireFox, and Seamonkey is *not*
Seamonkey , but Gecko ... nobody knowns that Gecko is a browser ... the
webmaster snif for a known list of browser ... Gecko ? what is that ? ...


I suggest you actually read
.  Firefox is
also Gecko.  The Firefox developers state that it is wrong to sniff for
"Firefox".  When sniffing can be justified, the server should sniff for
"Gecko" even for Firefox browsers.



I undersand that, but most of the webmasters snif for IE or FireFox or 
Opera, etc ... i never seen a webmaster sniffing for Gecko ... and in 
any tutorial .. Gecko sniffing is never present.


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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 5/13/10 8:45 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 5/13/10 5:43 AM, Russ Hunt wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net 
>> wrote:
>>> Russ Hunt wrote:
 Well.
> I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
> if that helps you.  -JW
>>>
 Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
 that?
>>>
>>> in SM browser, type the url   about:config
>>> then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
>>> then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6
>>
>> Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
>> with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
>> I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
>> as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
>> going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
>> decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
>> occurring more frequently.
> 
> The problem is not in SeaMonkey.  The pronblem is that some Web servers
> deliver different Web pages based on what browser you are using,
> detecting your browser by what is called "sniffing".  Further, many
> servers sniff incorrectly, looking for "Firefox" when they should look
> for "Gecko".
> 
> What you have done is make those servers think you are using Firefox.
> This is called "spoofing".  By spoofing, you are compounding the problem
> by not telling other servers that SeaMonkey is not being used.  This
> will eventually lead to other Web developers to think that there is no
> need to provide for SeaMonkey when they sniff.  This puts all SeaMonkey
> users at a disadvantage.
> 
> The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:
> 
> 1.  Use an extension that allows you to spoof another browser when
> necessary but also eliminates spoofing at other times.  Such extensions
> include PrefBar and UserAgentSwitcher.  They automatically eliminate
> spoofing whenever you launch SeaMonkey.
> 
> 2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox but not with
> SeaMonkey.  Inform them that they are blocking the use of Gecko-based
> browsers that are not Firefox.  Refer them to
>  and thus losing
> potential audience.
> 
> 3.  File a Tech Evangelism bug report at bugzilla.mozilla.org.  If you
> don't have an account there, creating a new account is easy.  If the
> whole thing seems too daunting, post a reply here to ask someone else to
> file the bug report.
> 
> For an explanation of sniffing, see my
> .
> 
> For an explanation of spoofing, see my
> .
> 

Since the other participants in this thread either deny the
bellaliant.net site has a problem (and prefer to point their fingers at
SeaMonkey) or else enjoy ranting too much to take productive action, I
have submitted bug #565675.

See .

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 5/13/10 12:18 PM, Ray_Net wrote:
> David E. Ross a écrit :
>> On 5/13/10 5:43 AM, Russ Hunt wrote:
>>> On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net
>>> wrote:
 Russ Hunt wrote:
> Well.
>> I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
>> if that helps you.  -JW

> Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
> that?

 in SM browser, type the url   about:config
 then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
 then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6
>>>
>>> Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
>>> with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
>>> I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
>>> as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
>>> going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
>>> decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
>>> occurring more frequently.
>>
>> The problem is not in SeaMonkey.  The pronblem is that some Web servers
>> deliver different Web pages based on what browser you are using,
>> detecting your browser by what is called "sniffing".  Further, many
>> servers sniff incorrectly, looking for "Firefox" when they should look
>> for "Gecko".
>>
>> What you have done is make those servers think you are using Firefox.
>> This is called "spoofing".  By spoofing, you are compounding the problem
>> by not telling other servers that SeaMonkey is not being used.  This
>> will eventually lead to other Web developers to think that there is no
>> need to provide for SeaMonkey when they sniff.  This puts all SeaMonkey
>> users at a disadvantage.
>>
>> The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:
>>
>> 1.  Use an extension that allows you to spoof another browser when
>> necessary but also eliminates spoofing at other times.  Such extensions
>> include PrefBar and UserAgentSwitcher.  They automatically eliminate
>> spoofing whenever you launch SeaMonkey.
>>
>> 2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox but not with
>> SeaMonkey.  Inform them that they are blocking the use of Gecko-based
>> browsers that are not Firefox.  Refer them to
>>   and thus losing
>> potential audience.
>>
> Most of the time webmaster would not change what he have done ... one 
> reason is because IE is IE, FireFox is FireFox, and Seamonkey is *not* 
> Seamonkey , but Gecko ... nobody knowns that Gecko is a browser ... the 
> webmaster snif for a known list of browser ... Gecko ? what is that ? ...

I suggest you actually read
.  Firefox is
also Gecko.  The Firefox developers state that it is wrong to sniff for
"Firefox".  When sniffing can be justified, the server should sniff for
"Gecko" even for Firefox browsers.

However, sniffing often cannot be justified.  If a Web page can be
processed by W3C validator at
 without any
error, sniffing should not be necessary.  Sniffing is generally used
only when a Web developer wants to take advantage of a non-standard
feature of a browser and must then also accommodate other browsers.
This is usually a poor decision because many non-standard browser
features are actually bugs that will be fixed in future versions of the
affected browser.  Web pages that require sniffing often require
constant maintenance with more expense for the Web site owner and more
income for the Web developer.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[JeffM]

>Russ Hunt wrote:
>>unless SeaMonkey can be configured so as to avoid this
>>without this pretty obscure individual fix,
>>
David E. Ross wrote:
>The problem is not in SeaMonkey.
>
Yup.

>"sniffing"
>
Yup.

>The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:
>
>2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox
>but not with SeaMonkey.
>
IOW, tell them to LEARN THEIR DAMNED CRAFT.
These webmasters/developers are incompetent bozos.
If they were plumbers or electricians and pulled this kind of shit,
they would have had their licenses yanked long ago.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Ray_Net]

David E. Ross a écrit :

On 5/13/10 5:43 AM, Russ Hunt wrote:

On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net
wrote:

Russ Hunt wrote:

Well.

I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
if that helps you.  -JW



Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
that?


in SM browser, type the url   about:config
then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6


Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
occurring more frequently.


The problem is not in SeaMonkey.  The pronblem is that some Web servers
deliver different Web pages based on what browser you are using,
detecting your browser by what is called "sniffing".  Further, many
servers sniff incorrectly, looking for "Firefox" when they should look
for "Gecko".

What you have done is make those servers think you are using Firefox.
This is called "spoofing".  By spoofing, you are compounding the problem
by not telling other servers that SeaMonkey is not being used.  This
will eventually lead to other Web developers to think that there is no
need to provide for SeaMonkey when they sniff.  This puts all SeaMonkey
users at a disadvantage.

The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:

1.  Use an extension that allows you to spoof another browser when
necessary but also eliminates spoofing at other times.  Such extensions
include PrefBar and UserAgentSwitcher.  They automatically eliminate
spoofing whenever you launch SeaMonkey.

2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox but not with
SeaMonkey.  Inform them that they are blocking the use of Gecko-based
browsers that are not Firefox.  Refer them to
  and thus losing
potential audience.

Most of the time webmaster would not change what he have done ... one 
reason is because IE is IE, FireFox is FireFox, and Seamonkey is *not* 
Seamonkey , but Gecko ... nobody knowns that Gecko is a browser ... the 
webmaster snif for a known list of browser ... Gecko ? what is that ? ...

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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 5/13/10 5:43 AM, Russ Hunt wrote:
> On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net 
> wrote:
>> Russ Hunt wrote:
>>> Well.
 I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
 if that helps you.  -JW
>>
>>> Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
>>> that?
>>
>> in SM browser, type the url   about:config
>> then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
>> then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6
> 
> Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
> with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
> I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
> as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
> going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
> decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
> occurring more frequently.

The problem is not in SeaMonkey.  The pronblem is that some Web servers
deliver different Web pages based on what browser you are using,
detecting your browser by what is called "sniffing".  Further, many
servers sniff incorrectly, looking for "Firefox" when they should look
for "Gecko".

What you have done is make those servers think you are using Firefox.
This is called "spoofing".  By spoofing, you are compounding the problem
by not telling other servers that SeaMonkey is not being used.  This
will eventually lead to other Web developers to think that there is no
need to provide for SeaMonkey when they sniff.  This puts all SeaMonkey
users at a disadvantage.

The proper way to address this problem requires three actions:

1.  Use an extension that allows you to spoof another browser when
necessary but also eliminates spoofing at other times.  Such extensions
include PrefBar and UserAgentSwitcher.  They automatically eliminate
spoofing whenever you launch SeaMonkey.

2.  Contact the owner of Web sites that work with Firefox but not with
SeaMonkey.  Inform them that they are blocking the use of Gecko-based
browsers that are not Firefox.  Refer them to
 and thus losing
potential audience.

3.  File a Tech Evangelism bug report at bugzilla.mozilla.org.  If you
don't have an account there, creating a new account is easy.  If the
whole thing seems too daunting, post a reply here to ask someone else to
file the bug report.

For an explanation of sniffing, see my
.

For an explanation of spoofing, see my
.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Russ Hunt]

On Apr 30, 7:24 pm, Ray_Net 
wrote:
> Russ Hunt wrote:
> > Well.
> >> I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
> >> if that helps you.  -JW
>
> > Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
> > that?
>
> in SM browser, type the url       about:config
> then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
> then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6

Thanks; this solved the problem -- and another that developed later
with a site that didn't respond to SeaMonkey, and did to Firefox. But
I think it's worth noting that unless SeaMonkey can be configured so
as to avoid this without this pretty obscure individual fix, it's
going to go the way of Netscape and Mozilla, because people will
decide that they have to use IE or Firefox to avoid this sort of thing
occurring more frequently.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[JohnW-Mpls]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 22:42:30 -0300, "Russ Hunt"  wrote:

>David E. Ross --
>
>Thank you. This is pretty clearly the problem:
>
>> The webmail.bellaliant.net server is sniffing for "Firefox".  This is
>> invalid.  If sniffing can be justified at all, the site should be
>> sniffing for "Gecko".  For an explanation of "sniffing", see my
>> . 
>

> 
>> Finally, your signature should have the "-- " (dash-dash-space) on a
>> separate line without any text. 
>
>I've done my signature like this since about 1988, and I've never had 
>anybody suggest that (or never noticed anyone except yours with the "-
>- " on a separate line. Why?
>
>-- Russ
>
>Russ Hunt
>Department of English
>St. Thomas University
>http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/

The signature delimiter is a carryover from the old BBS days (now
about 25 years ago).  It originally flagged systems to show your
signature instead of some BBS's promotional message.

-- 
 JohnW-Mpls
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Russ Hunt wrote:


David E. Ross --


Finally, your signature should have the "-- " (dash-dash-space) on a
separate line without any text. 


I've done my signature like this since about 1988, and I've never had 
anybody suggest that (or never noticed anyone except yours with the "-

- " on a separate line. Why?

-- Russ

Russ Hunt
Department of English
St. Thomas University
http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/


Because you haven't been paying attention? It's the standard delimiter; 
I can't imagine how you can trick SeaMonkey into doing it your way 
unless you're manually adding your first name to every message.


As you can see, your inclusion of text on the same line after the space 
prevents my SeaMonkey from recognizing your sig as such, so it doesn't 
automatically snip it when I reply.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 4/30/10 6:42 PM, Russ Hunt wrote:
> David E. Ross --
> 
> Thank you. This is pretty clearly the problem:
> 
>> The webmail.bellaliant.net server is sniffing for "Firefox".  This is
>> invalid.  If sniffing can be justified at all, the site should be
>> sniffing for "Gecko".  For an explanation of "sniffing", see my
>> . 
> 
> I will tell BellAliant that. I'd hope they'd be interested. But of 
> course the userbase of Seamonkey users is probably pretty small, from 
> their point of view. 

It's not merely SeaMonkey that is affected.  There are other browsers
based on Gecko.  They are all affected.  See
.


>> If anyone says to you ""Why don't you use Internet Explorer, > like
>> everybody else?", tell them that about half of those who view the Web
>> now use browsers that are NOT Internet Explorer. 
> 
> Yep. So what I expect they'll say is, "Why don't you use Firefox, 
> like most of the people who don't use IE?"  But I'll try.
> 
> This, though, I don't understand:
>  
>> Finally, your signature should have the "-- " (dash-dash-space) on a
>> separate line without any text. 
> 
> I've done my signature like this since about 1988, and I've never had 
> anybody suggest that (or never noticed anyone except yours with the "-
> - " on a separate line. Why?
> 
> -- Russ
> 
> Russ Hunt
> Department of English
> St. Thomas University
> http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/
> 

RFC 3676 (Section 4.3) describes the use of dash-dash-space on a line by
itself as an NNTP convention.  Most mail/news clients strip away the
signature when quoting for a reply to a newsgroup message, providing the
user follows the convention.  Many also strip away the signature when
quoting for a reply to an E-mail message, which annoys many individuals.

As you see above, your signature gets quoted when I reply.  That's
because you do not follow the convention.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Phillip Jones]

Russ Hunt wrote:

I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
and Chrome.  One is this:

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
We are sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that
message with any other browser.

With this site:

https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1

I simply get a blank screen; with the other three browsers I get a
login page.

I'd rather stay with SeaMonkey, but something troubling is going on
here.

-- Russ



First link is as you stated. Second link show the login page after a few 
seconds of  loading.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Russ Hunt wrote:

> I've done my signature like this since about 1988, and I've never had
> anybody suggest that (or never noticed anyone except yours with the
> "- - " on a separate line. Why?

It should be "-- "  (without the quotes of course). See mine below and
note the presence of the space. Why?  It's the accepted standard.  :-)

> -- Russ
> 
> Russ Hunt
> Department of English
> St. Thomas University
> http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/

With a proper sig delimiter, conforming news agents will snip the
signature block automatically. 

-- 
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Russ Hunt]

David E. Ross --

Thank you. This is pretty clearly the problem:

> The webmail.bellaliant.net server is sniffing for "Firefox".  This is
> invalid.  If sniffing can be justified at all, the site should be
> sniffing for "Gecko".  For an explanation of "sniffing", see my
> . 

I will tell BellAliant that. I'd hope they'd be interested. But of 
course the userbase of Seamonkey users is probably pretty small, from 
their point of view. 

> If anyone says to you ""Why don't you use Internet Explorer, > like
> everybody else?", tell them that about half of those who view the Web
> now use browsers that are NOT Internet Explorer. 

Yep. So what I expect they'll say is, "Why don't you use Firefox, 
like most of the people who don't use IE?"  But I'll try.

This, though, I don't understand:
 
> Finally, your signature should have the "-- " (dash-dash-space) on a
> separate line without any text. 

I've done my signature like this since about 1988, and I've never had 
anybody suggest that (or never noticed anyone except yours with the "-
- " on a separate line. Why?

-- Russ

Russ Hunt
Department of English
St. Thomas University
http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/

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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 4/30/10 4:55 PM, Paul wrote:
> Russ Hunt wrote:
>> I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
>> SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
>> and Chrome.  One is this:
>>
>> https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US
>>
>> https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1
> 
> Both sites work great for me.
> SeaMonkey 1.1.17
> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) 
> Gecko/20090605 NOT Firefox/3.5 SeaMonkey/1.1.17 Firefox/2.0.0.24

The webmail.bellaliant.net site works for you because you are spoofing
Firefox.  The www6.memberdirect.net works quite well without any spoofing.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[David E. Ross]

On 4/30/10 1:16 PM, Russ Hunt wrote:
> Thanks, Rubens.
> 
>> I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
>> Please contact your System Administrator and try again later. We are
>> sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that message
>> with any other browser. 
> 
>> I got the same... with SM 2.04 and WinXP2. 
>>
>> I got the same... with old SM 1.1.4 and Win2000SP4.
> 
> Yep.  What I'm using is SM 2.04, and WinXP2.
> 
> About the second page:
> 
>> With this page however I got the normal log in page, as you got with 
> 
>> I got the normal log in page... with old SM 1.1.4 and Win2000SP4. 
> 
> Hm.  Tried it three different times, this morning, and got just a 
> blank screen: when I tried it again just now, though, it came up 
> fine.
> 
>> Perhaps the first site is working on a site update?   
> 
> Seems more likely the second one was. The first is the phone 
> company's Web mail page, and the error message is consistent.  
> 
> https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US
> 
> They apparently recently configured their server, and it's since then 
> that SM doesn't work. I'd contact them about the problem, but you 
> know exactly what they'll say: "Why don't you use Internet Explorer, 
> like everybody else?" 
> 
> My guess is that there's an issue with SM 2.04 (and older versions 
> too, apparently).
> 

If anyone says to you ""Why don't you use Internet Explorer,
> like everybody else?", tell them that about half of those who view the
Web now use browsers that are NOT Internet Explorer.  In a recent log of
visits to 19 different pages on my Web site, 51.8% of the visits were by
browsers that were NOT IE.  Another site reports that 65.1% were not IE.
 See my .

The webmail.bellaliant.net server is sniffing for "Firefox".  This is
invalid.  If sniffing can be justified at all, the site should be
sniffing for "Gecko".  For an explanation of "sniffing", see my
.  Also see the
very recent thread in this newsgroup with the subject "Adobe Flash
plugin problem?", which discusses spoofing (a method for defeating
sniffing).

I get the login page for the www6.memberdirect.net site without any
problem.  Since I don't have an account there, I can't tell if there is
sniffing beyond the login page.

Finally, your signature should have the "-- " (dash-dash-space) on a
separate line without any text.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Paul]

Russ Hunt wrote:

I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
and Chrome.  One is this:

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1


Both sites work great for me.
SeaMonkey 1.1.17
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) 
Gecko/20090605 NOT Firefox/3.5 SeaMonkey/1.1.17 Firefox/2.0.0.24

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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Ray_Net]

Russ Hunt wrote:

Well.



I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
if that helps you.  -JW


Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set
that?


in SM browser, type the url   about:config
then enter a New string: general.useragent.extra.firefox
then set this string equal to: NOT Firefox/3.6
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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Russ Hunt]

Well. 

> > https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

> That site gives me a Username/Password prompt. Looks normal.

That's interesting. I wonder what the difference is.  I've tried it 
from two different machines (both running SM 2.04 and WinXP), and 
consistently get the error message.

The second site does seem to have been a temporary glitch; it works 
okay on SM for me now, too.

> I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See
> if that helps you.  -JW 

Hm.  I haven't been able to find out where that is. How do I set 
that?

Thanks.

-- Russ



Russ Hunt
Department of English
St. Thomas University
http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/

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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Russ Hunt]

Thanks, Rubens.

> I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
> Please contact your System Administrator and try again later. We are
> sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that message
> with any other browser. 

> I got the same... with SM 2.04 and WinXP2. 
> 
> I got the same... with old SM 1.1.4 and Win2000SP4.

Yep.  What I'm using is SM 2.04, and WinXP2.

About the second page:

> With this page however I got the normal log in page, as you got with 

> I got the normal log in page... with old SM 1.1.4 and Win2000SP4. 

Hm.  Tried it three different times, this morning, and got just a 
blank screen: when I tried it again just now, though, it came up 
fine.

> Perhaps the first site is working on a site update?   

Seems more likely the second one was. The first is the phone 
company's Web mail page, and the error message is consistent.  

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

They apparently recently configured their server, and it's since then 
that SM doesn't work. I'd contact them about the problem, but you 
know exactly what they'll say: "Why don't you use Internet Explorer, 
like everybody else?" 

My guess is that there's an issue with SM 2.04 (and older versions 
too, apparently).

-- Russ

Russ Hunt
Department of English
St. Thomas University
http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/

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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[J. Weaver Jr.]

Russ Hunt wrote:

I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
and Chrome.  One is this:

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
We are sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that
message with any other browser.


That site gives me a Username/Password prompt. Looks normal.


With this site:

https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1

I simply get a blank screen; with the other three browsers I get a
login page.


That site gives me a login page as well.

UA: "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) 
Gecko/20100317 NOT Firefox/3.6 Mnenhy/0.8.1 SeaMonkey/2.0.4"


I have "general.useragent.extra.firefox" set to "NOT Firefox/3.6". See 
if that helps you.  -JW


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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Rubens]

chicagofan wrote, on 2010-04-30 14:53:

Russ Hunt wrote:

I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
and Chrome.  One is this:

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
We are sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that
message with any other browser.



I got the same... with SM 2.04 and WinXP2.


I got the same... with old SM 1.1.4 and Win2000SP4.





With this site:

https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1 



I simply get a blank screen; with the other three browsers I get a
login page.



With this page however I got the normal log in page, as you got with


I got the normal log in page... with old SM 1.1.4 and Win2000SP4.


other browsers.



I'd rather stay with SeaMonkey, but something troubling is going on
here.



Perhaps the first site is working on a site update?   What version of SM 
are you using... and O/S?

Some others may have some suggestions to help you.
bj



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Re: Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[chicagofan]

Russ Hunt wrote:

I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
and Chrome.  One is this:

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
We are sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that
message with any other browser.



I got the same... with SM 2.04 and WinXP2.



With this site:

https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1

I simply get a blank screen; with the other three browsers I get a
login page.



With this page however I got the normal log in page, as you got with other 
browsers.



I'd rather stay with SeaMonkey, but something troubling is going on
here.



Perhaps the first site is working on a site update?   What version of SM are you 
using... and O/S?

Some others may have some suggestions to help you.
bj


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Sites inaccessible via seamonkey

[Russ Hunt]

I've recent discovered two commercial sites that I cannot access via
SEamonkey, though both response when I use Firefox, Internet Explorer,
and Chrome.  One is this:

https://webmail.bellaliant.net/do/login?v=aliant&l=en-US

I get a message saying: "This operation is not currently available.
Please contact your System Administrator and try again later.
We are sorry for this interruption in your service." I don't get that
message with any other browser.

With this site:

https://www6.memberdirect.net/brand/at_722/OnlineBanking/Accounts/?welcome=1

I simply get a blank screen; with the other three browsers I get a
login page.

I'd rather stay with SeaMonkey, but something troubling is going on
here.

-- Russ

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