[Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Hi, Just noticed this the other day: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2012059385 I haven't read all the 75 pages, mostly looking at the pictures :-) But it looks like it's about combining different streams of HOA content with mono streams to be spatialized on the fly (sound objects). 1. Is data structures patentable? 2. If you exchange HOA with 5.1/7.1/9.1 beds it's looks a little like Dolby Atmos, combining prerendered surround with sound objects to be rendered on the fly Roger ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Hi, Just noticed this the other day: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2012059385 I haven't read all the 75 pages, mostly looking at the pictures :-) Who is/are the applicant(s) ? But it looks like it's about combining different streams of HOA content with mono streams to be spatialized on the fly (sound objects). Haven't looked, but 'prior art' (2009): One example that occurred during development has been the addition of ‘position’ files. These allow test files (of the “Up Left Front, Up Front, . . . ” variety) to be distributed as four channel files (mono, ux , uy , uz ), which can then be ‘inflated’ by the user to a normal file of any ambisonic order. may (or may not) be relevant ... Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Hi On 24 October 2012 09:37, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote: Hi, Just noticed this the other day: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA Who is/are the applicant(s) ? Well it's Thomson and the inventors include people like Johann-Markus Batke and others who have had papers at one or more Ambisonics Symposia. Dave ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University, so this disclaimer is redundant These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer Dave Malham Ex-Music Research Centre Department of Music The University of York Heslington York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Hi On 24 October 2012 09:37, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote: Hi, Just noticed this the other day: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA Who is/are the applicant(s) ? Well it's Thomson and the inventors include people like Johann-Markus Batke and others ? ? ? M ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Interesting (in its way), looks like a combo of HOA Ambisonic scene description (using multiple HOA streams possibly of different orders) and bandwidth compression; i.e. there is an encoding and decoding device as part of the application, as there would need to be, given that patents ultimately have to describe a device. It is indeed also a file format, which I would not have thought was patentable as such, but maybe anything is possible these days. The description includes in the first paragraph: The B-Format (based on the extensible ^iff/wav' structure) with its *.amb file format realisation as described as of 30 March 2009 for example in Martin Leese, File Format for B-Format , http://www. ambisonia.com/Members/etienne/Members/mleese/file-format-for-b-format, is the most sophisticated format available today. I guess I haven't played the system well enough - as the person who first published the amb format (not in 2009 but in 2000, in my paper for ICMC Berlin) it would have been a nice addition to my meagre CV to have been mentioned in a patent application. Perhaps I should write to them. The authors I think are probably known here, their names appear regularly at conferences etc: KEILER, Florian; (DE). KORDON, Sven; (DE). BOEHM, Johannes; (DE). KROPP, Holger; (DE). BATKE, Johann-Markus; (DE) So is this, in fact, the ultimate file format that folk on this list have been arguing for (and over) for so long? Richard Dobson On 24/10/2012 09:27, Roger Klaveness wrote: Hi, Just noticed this the other day: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2012059385 I haven't read all the 75 pages, mostly looking at the pictures :-) But it looks like it's about combining different streams of HOA content with mono streams to be spatialized on the fly (sound objects). 1. Is data structures patentable? 2. If you exchange HOA with 5.1/7.1/9.1 beds it's looks a little like Dolby Atmos, combining prerendered surround with sound objects to be rendered on the fly Roger ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
The B-Format (based on the extensible ^iff/wav' structure) with its *.amb file format realisation as described as of 30 March 2009 for example in Martin Leese, File Format for B-Format , http://www. ambisonia.com/Members/etienne/Members/mleese/file-format-for-b-format, is the most sophisticated format available today. With due deference to your work of 2000, Martin, in 2012 one might question whether that important work, is the most sophisticated format available today (?). Patents, patents, M ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Hmm, well, that rather proves my point, and I will write to them. I have every confidence that that sentence was written ironically rather than hagiographically. Suffice it to say, I, Richard Dobson, did that work in 2000; and it appears the title to even that very modest piece of IP (embodied as it is in the free CDP multi-channel toolkit, which ensures the file format is available to composers) has been magically reassigned, such is the significance of a name written in a patent application, and the ineluctable power of a web page over a mere published conference paper. And yes one might very well question it, and the answer then must be the list of the other sophisticated Ambisonic file formats that are available today... Richard Dobson On 24/10/2012 12:15, Michael Chapman wrote: The B-Format (based on the extensible ^iff/wav' structure) with its *.amb file format realisation as described as of 30 March 2009 for example in Martin Leese, File Format for B-Format , http://www. ambisonia.com/Members/etienne/Members/mleese/file-format-for-b-format, is the most sophisticated format available today. With due deference to your work of 2000, Martin, in 2012 one might question whether that important work, is the most sophisticated format available today (?). Patents, patents, M ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] The quietest place on Earth : Tours Classes, USA
http://www.bbc.com/travel/blog/20121022-the-quietest-place-on-earth Whispering. cheers!!! -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121024/9a0d1d85/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] The quietest place on Earth : Tours Classes, USA
Hi The site says that an average conversation runs at about 30 decibels I wonder where in the world? Compared to what? A decibel is a ratio. Normal discussion usually at around 45-50 dB(A). Journalists... Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] The quietest place on Earth : Tours Classes, USA
In the USA it is usually even higher! At 12:10 24/10/2012, Eero Aro wrote: Hi The site says that an average conversation runs at about 30 decibels I wonder where in the world? Compared to what? A decibel is a ratio. Normal discussion usually at around 45-50 dB(A). Journalists... Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Hi, Richard Dobson wrote: I guess I haven't played the system well enough - as the person who first published the amb format (not in 2009 but in 2000, in my paper for ICMC Berlin) it would have been a nice addition to my meagre CV to have been mentioned in a patent application. Perhaps I should write to them. It would be greatly appreciated if you write to them. In the patent system, it is possible to file third party observations. Instead of saying that it is obvious on this list, you can use the link already provided by Roger: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2012059385 On the web page there, at the top, you can find the following: Latest bibliographic data on file with the International Bureau ⇨ Submit observation In order to submit observations, you have to create an account. It is not a cumbersome procedure in my opinion. Then, you can submit references to documents which have been made available to the public before the filing date, October 24th 2011 (or rather the priority date, November 05th 2010) of the application. If you are able to find posts in this list which already disclose such data structure, you can also make reference to the corresponding messages. However, it is questionable whether this list is made available to the public... It is a pity that you have to subscribe in order to see the archives, and that the archives are not searchable without such a subscription, or am I mistaken? It may be so that the examiner which has been entrusted with the search of the application is not aware of your ICMC paper in Berlin. But you can also imagine that examiners are not omniscient. If you believe that everything has been described in your article, submit a third party observation and you will be cited in the patent application. Indicate the title of the scientific article, the conference, the date, and it will be retrieved. If you want to invest more time, you can even further specify the passages of the article which are relevant for the invention, and why in your opinion, your article already discloses everything. After, I am not aware of the details of the procedure, but I guess that the document will be taken into account in the prosecution of the procedure. Some further important details : It is only a WO patent, namely an international patent. In fact, a WO is not a patent. It is only the starting point of a patent. The application goes after in a regional procedure (US, Europe, Japan, China, etc.) in order to be converted into a patent (if it is new and inventive). Taking account of the search report associated with the application, available here: http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id0017329648.pdf there are only A documents cited by the search examiner, meaning that the preliminary opinion is that it contains subject-matter which is new and inventive. So, definitely, if you are able to provide some evidence that it already exists, you would help the community, don't you? Best regards, Mathieu Guillaume ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Richard Dobson wrote: ... So is this, in fact, the ultimate file format that folk on this list have been arguing for (and over) for so long? No, absolutely not. The fact that it has been patented means that it should not be used. The situation is similar the the GIF image file format. When the patent holders of the compression technique it used started to want licensing payments, the community invented PNG to replace it. (The patent behind GIF has now expired, so this is no longer a consideration.) Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
So is this, in fact, the ultimate file format that folk on this list have been arguing for (and over) for so long? I dont know about ultimate formats ... but one existing format is Universal Ambisonic (UA). It is documented Here: http://soundofspace.com/static/make_ua_file And there is lots of material in this format available on http://soundofspace.com This format is my attempt to *conclude* on the many discussions we had here and on other lists. I don't pretend that it is better than other formats ... nor that it satisfies everyone's needs (even though it tries pretty hard). The point is ... other ambisonic formats exist ... and UA is one of them! Etienne Richard Dobson On 24/10/2012 09:27, Roger Klaveness wrote: Hi, Just noticed this the other day: WO2012059385 DATA STRUCTURE FOR HIGHER ORDER AMBISONICS AUDIO DATA http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2012059385 I haven't read all the 75 pages, mostly looking at the pictures :-) But it looks like it's about combining different streams of HOA content with mono streams to be spatialized on the fly (sound objects). 1. Is data structures patentable? 2. If you exchange HOA with 5.1/7.1/9.1 beds it's looks a little like Dolby Atmos, combining prerendered surround with sound objects to be rendered on the fly Roger ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- http://etiennedeleflie.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
