Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard G Elen]

Aha, I did the same.

I own both the albums on CD - the Celts is the BBC original version and 
Watermark is almost certainly the US version as I was living in the US 
at the time. I am sure I would have noticed an Ambisonic logo in either 
case.


Locating the CDs now will be easier said than done as they are somewhere 
in boxes


-R

On 05/11/2013 21:33, Eero Aro wrote:

Did some googling for Enya vinyl and CD covers. There's plenty of
photos of the covers, but not necessarily of the inner sleeves or disc
faces.

No observations of Ambisonic logos. 



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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Steven Dive]

I have original CD’s of both Watermark and The Celts and cannot see any 
ambisonic symbols on either, CD’s or sleeve notes, sadly. I wonder as well 
whether there was more than one version of one or both albums.

On 5 Nov 2013, at 20:35, Bearcat M. Şándor  wrote:

> To get back to the Enya question, i remember this too. In fact it was that
> disc that got me interested in Ambisonics in the first place.
> 
> In around 2000, i traveled to washington from montana to listen to a pair
> of Meridian DSP6000s.  I'd wanted to hear some for years (knowing i
> couldn't afford them).
> 
> After listening to my music for a while, the sales person put an Enya disc
> on. It was either Enya (The Celts) or Watermark i wish i remembered which.
> I noticed that a symbol on the cd was the same as a symbol on the meridian
> preamp we were listening to. I asked about it and he turned on the
> ambisonics processing in the pre-amp. I was blown away. The surround was so
> gentle and the antithesis of what had turned me off from surround sound
> before, even though he only had a 5.1 set up.
> 
> So, it's out there, i just don't know which one it is.
> 
> When it comes to Ambisonics, might some editions of the disc (original,
> remastered etc) have it and some not? Put another way could the Ambisonics
> be mixed or mastered out of a particular edition?
> 
> Also, could an indicator be added to Fons processor to indicate whether a
> stream had UHJ in it or not?
> 
> Bearcat
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Richard G Elen wrote:
> 
>> Excellent, good to know.
>> -_R
>> 
>> 
>> On 05/11/2013 18:57, J. Liles wrote:
>> 
>>> May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release,
>>> but
>>> it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.
>>> 
>>> http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bearcat M. Şándor
> Feline Soul Systems LLC
> Voice: 872.CAT.SOUL (872.228.7685)
> Fax: 406.235.7070
> Jabber/xmpp/gtalk/email: bear...@feline-soul.net
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 10:20:35PM +, John Leonard wrote:

> Hmm, not what I've found: I mean, really not what I've found.

No point in discussing basic physics, a self noise of 19 dB(A)
and a sensitivity of 7 mv/Pa amount to -116 dBm(A) at the
input of the preamp. Unless I botched up the the calculations:

7 mV = -43.1 dBV = -40.9 dBm 
1 Pa = 94 dB SPL

19 - 40.9 - 94 = -115.9

> Sorry to disagree, but I've tried a number of systems and have
> found that the low-cost recorders that I've used, un-modded, have
> had unacceptable noise levels when cranked up.

And what EIN levels do the specs of these recorders state ?

There may be a different issue at work here. EIN is normally 
measured at maximum gain. A well-designed preamp should have
more or less constant EIN for the upper 25..30 dB of the gain
range, but many don't.

Ciao,

-- 
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A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[John Leonard]

Hmm, not what I've found: I mean, really not what I've found. Sorry to 
disagree, but I've tried a number of systems and have found that the low-cost 
recorders that I've used, un-modded, have had unacceptable noise levels when 
cranked up.

Regards,

John


On 5 Nov 2013, at 21:45, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 03:16:42PM +, John Leonard wrote:
> 
>> It's not so much the microphone, but what you connect it to:
>> because of the relatively low sensitivity, you really need
>> a low-noise pre-amp.
> 
> Using the specs provided by Core Sound:
> 
> Self noise: 19 dB(A)
> Sensitiviy:  7 mv/Pa
> 
> a preamp with an EIN of -116 dBm(A) would produce as much
> noise as the mic. My cheap Edirol UA5 has an EIN of around
> -120 dBm(A), low-noise mic preamps are around 10 dB better.
> 
> Which means it's unlikely that the preamp will be the limiting
> factor, it will be either the mic or the ambient noise.
> 
> Ciao,
> 
> -- 
> FA
> 
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 03:16:42PM +, John Leonard wrote:

> It's not so much the microphone, but what you connect it to:
> because of the relatively low sensitivity, you really need
> a low-noise pre-amp.

Using the specs provided by Core Sound:

Self noise: 19 dB(A)
Sensitiviy:  7 mv/Pa

a preamp with an EIN of -116 dBm(A) would produce as much
noise as the mic. My cheap Edirol UA5 has an EIN of around
-120 dBm(A), low-noise mic preamps are around 10 dB better.

Which means it's unlikely that the preamp will be the limiting
factor, it will be either the mic or the ambient noise.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

Did some googling for Enya vinyl and CD covers. There's plenty of
photos of the covers, but not necessarily of the inner sleeves or disc
faces.

No observations of Ambisonic logos.

The only round logo that I found was the Geffen Records logo
on a Orinoco Flow CD:
http://991.com/Buy/ProductInformation.aspx?StockNumber=40889

Eero

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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[John Abram]

On 5 November 2013 14:03, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> what sort of mind-bending effects?
> Dr Peter Lennox
>

For example, virtually rotating the mic while placed over a piano, also to
some degree zooming in and out.
Most clients don't want that on their recordings, but John Oswald recorded
Gordon Monahan's piano music with a (literally) roving Soundfield.

with best wishes, John
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Paul Hodges]

--On 05 November 2013 21:41 +0100 David Worrall  
wrote:



John or me? - I'm sending it straight to a Tascam DR-640.

David

On 05/11/2013, at 4:30 PM, Moritz Fehr wrote:


Hi all,

what other preamps (portable?) are you using with your TetraMic ? I have
tested it with a Motu Traveler which is not bad, and an Edirol R44,
which is quite noisy.


Taking the query as open, I currently use a Tascam DR-680 most of the time, 
though sometimes I use the Traveler.  I've not done a direct noise 
comparison, but I think the Traveler is slightly quieter.  I've also modded 
my Tascam with much larger smoothing capacitors on the phantom supplies; 
I've not found a big change with the TetraMic, but some people have had 
major problems using some mics without the mod.


Info on the mod I did, and the possible need for it, is here:


Paul

--
Paul Hodges


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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Peter Lennox]

what sort of mind-bending effects?
Dr Peter Lennox

School of Technology,
Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Abram 
[johnbab...@gmail.com]
Sent: 05 November 2013 21:01
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

On 5 November 2013 08:30, Moritz Fehr  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> what other preamps (portable?) are you using with your TetraMic ? I have
> tested it with a Motu Traveler which is not bad, and an Edirol R44, which
> is quite noisy.
>
> Regards
> Moritz
>

I use a first generation MOTU Traveler with the Black Lion Audio
modifications, and their (BLA's) first generation microclock. I record
mostly classical music indoors, and the noise levels are generally
acceptable, better than a good number of older commercial recordings I
cherish. The flexibility in post-production (I use Reaper on Macs for
Tetramic work) is staggering - it's possible to all manner of corrective
mic "placement" after the fact, and to get some mind bending effects if
you're into that…

with best wishes, John
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[John Abram]

On 5 November 2013 08:30, Moritz Fehr  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> what other preamps (portable?) are you using with your TetraMic ? I have
> tested it with a Motu Traveler which is not bad, and an Edirol R44, which
> is quite noisy.
>
> Regards
> Moritz
>

I use a first generation MOTU Traveler with the Black Lion Audio
modifications, and their (BLA's) first generation microclock. I record
mostly classical music indoors, and the noise levels are generally
acceptable, better than a good number of older commercial recordings I
cherish. The flexibility in post-production (I use Reaper on Macs for
Tetramic work) is staggering - it's possible to all manner of corrective
mic "placement" after the fact, and to get some mind bending effects if
you're into that…

with best wishes, John
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

Hm. Interesting.

Many recordings that are known to be UHJ encoded, son't have any printed
indication or an Ambisonic logo at all.

Then again, it has been a common practise that the same release of some
recording has had a different cover print in different countries.

Maybe the Enya really would need some further investigation.

Eero

Bearcat M. Şándor wrote:

To get back to the Enya question, i remember this too. In fact it was that
disc that got me interested in Ambisonics in the first place.

In around 2000, i traveled to washington from montana to listen to a pair
of Meridian DSP6000s.  I'd wanted to hear some for years (knowing i
couldn't afford them).

After listening to my music for a while, the sales person put an Enya disc
on. It was either Enya (The Celts) or Watermark i wish i remembered which.
I noticed that a symbol on the cd was the same as a symbol on the meridian
preamp we were listening to. I asked about it and he turned on the
ambisonics processing in the pre-amp. I was blown away. The surround was so
gentle and the antithesis of what had turned me off from surround sound
before, even though he only had a 5.1 set up.

So, it's out there, i just don't know which one it is.

When it comes to Ambisonics, might some editions of the disc (original,
remastered etc) have it and some not? Put another way could the Ambisonics
be mixed or mastered out of a particular edition?

Also, could an indicator be added to Fons processor to indicate whether a
stream had UHJ in it or not?

Bearcat

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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[David Worrall]

Hi Moritz,
John or me? - I'm sending it straight to a Tascam DR-640.

David

On 05/11/2013, at 4:30 PM, Moritz Fehr wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> what other preamps (portable?) are you using with your TetraMic ? I have 
> tested it with a Motu Traveler which is not bad, and an Edirol R44, which is 
> quite noisy.
> 
> Regards
> Moritz
> 
> 
> Am 05.11.2013 um 16:16 schrieb John Leonard :
> 
>> It's not so much the microphone, but what you connect it to: because of the 
>> relatively low sensitivity, you really need a low-noise pre-amp. I use a 
>> Metric Halo ULN-8, which works extremely well with the TetraMic. The ST450 
>> outputs at line level, so mic pre-amps are not an issue. And of course, 
>> Australian nature is a damned site louder that the English variety...
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> On 5 Nov 2013, at 07:57, David Worrall  wrote:
>> 
>>> I've used the TetraMic almost exclusively for outdoor 'nature' recordings, 
>>> including much at dead-of-night.
>>> I've never had a real problem w. noise from the mic, (in reality, nature 
>>> very noisy) - my problems have almost all been with RF and I would love a 
>>> balanced solution.
>>> 
>>> David
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> 
> *****
> Moritz Fehr
> mobil: 01749231733
> moritzf...@web.de
> www.moritzfehr.de
> 
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Audio Department
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Am Wolfsmantel 33
91058 Erlangen
Telefon  +49 (0) 91 31 / 7 76-62 77
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david.worr...@anu.edu.au






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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Bearcat M . Şándor]

To get back to the Enya question, i remember this too. In fact it was that
disc that got me interested in Ambisonics in the first place.

In around 2000, i traveled to washington from montana to listen to a pair
of Meridian DSP6000s.  I'd wanted to hear some for years (knowing i
couldn't afford them).

After listening to my music for a while, the sales person put an Enya disc
on. It was either Enya (The Celts) or Watermark i wish i remembered which.
I noticed that a symbol on the cd was the same as a symbol on the meridian
preamp we were listening to. I asked about it and he turned on the
ambisonics processing in the pre-amp. I was blown away. The surround was so
gentle and the antithesis of what had turned me off from surround sound
before, even though he only had a 5.1 set up.

So, it's out there, i just don't know which one it is.

When it comes to Ambisonics, might some editions of the disc (original,
remastered etc) have it and some not? Put another way could the Ambisonics
be mixed or mastered out of a particular edition?

Also, could an indicator be added to Fons processor to indicate whether a
stream had UHJ in it or not?

Bearcat


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Richard G Elen wrote:

> Excellent, good to know.
> -_R
>
>
> On 05/11/2013 18:57, J. Liles wrote:
>
>> May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release,
>> but
>> it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.
>>
>> http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl
>>
>
>
> ___
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> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>



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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[John Leonard]

Mind you, I have a lovely recording of the Dambusters memorial fly-past that 
was ruined both by a BBC news crew in a helicopter, but also by some very cross 
Canada Geese. Very spectacular in surround if you need a Lancaster Bomber, 
mixed with a helicopter and geese, all from a variety of different directions, 
but bugger all use otherwise. 

In the words of the late, great Viv Stanshall, sometimes you just can't win. 

John. 

On 5 Nov 2013, at 18:27, "Michael Chapman"  wrote:

>> Hi,
> 
>> 
>> The main problem in the UK is getting away from ambient noise
>> (traffic, aircraft, people, barking dogs, wind in trees & grass, rain
>> and other water etc.). Then there's still a residual of Brownian air
>> motion from everywhere. Apart from frogs if you're patient (or
>> possibly bees or crickets/grasshoppers) most creatures are trying to
>> avoid you and remain 'stumm' until they're some distance away.
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard G Elen]

Excellent, good to know.
-_R

On 05/11/2013 18:57, J. Liles wrote:

May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release, but
it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.

http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl



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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[J. Liles]

May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release, but
it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.

http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl

In case anyone starving for some new music in Ambisonics...
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Michael Chapman]

> Hi,

>
> The main problem in the UK is getting away from ambient noise
> (traffic, aircraft, people, barking dogs, wind in trees & grass, rain
> and other water etc.). Then there's still a residual of Brownian air
> motion from everywhere. Apart from frogs if you're patient (or
> possibly bees or crickets/grasshoppers) most creatures are trying to
> avoid you and remain 'stumm' until they're some distance away.
>

The converse can be worrying.

I did a series of 'dawn choruses' in a wetland nature reserve,
We put ourselves 50m from the mic and recorded.
We and the mic were on 'walkways' above the wetlands (probably designed by
Daleks).
Two mornings we got distinct footfalls along the walkways ... they weren't
human ... but they weren't small.
Still, all crew accounted for.

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Dave Hunt]

Hi,


From: John Leonard 
Date: 5 November 2013 15:16:42 GMT

And of course, Australian nature is a damned site louder that the  
English variety...



On 5 Nov 2013, at 07:57, David Worrall  wrote:

I've used the TetraMic almost exclusively for outdoor 'nature'  
recordings, including much at dead-of-night.
I've never had a real problem w. noise from the mic, (in reality,  
nature very noisy) - my problems have almost all been with RF and  
I would love a balanced solution.


The main problem in the UK is getting away from ambient noise  
(traffic, aircraft, people, barking dogs, wind in trees & grass, rain  
and other water etc.). Then there's still a residual of Brownian air  
motion from everywhere. Apart from frogs if you're patient (or  
possibly bees or crickets/grasshoppers) most creatures are trying to  
avoid you and remain 'stumm' until they're some distance away.


Ciao,

Dave
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Moritz Fehr]

Hi all,

what other preamps (portable?) are you using with your TetraMic ? I have tested 
it with a Motu Traveler which is not bad, and an Edirol R44, which is quite 
noisy.

Regards
Moritz


Am 05.11.2013 um 16:16 schrieb John Leonard :

> It's not so much the microphone, but what you connect it to: because of the 
> relatively low sensitivity, you really need a low-noise pre-amp. I use a 
> Metric Halo ULN-8, which works extremely well with the TetraMic. The ST450 
> outputs at line level, so mic pre-amps are not an issue. And of course, 
> Australian nature is a damned site louder that the English variety...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John
> 
> On 5 Nov 2013, at 07:57, David Worrall  wrote:
> 
>> I've used the TetraMic almost exclusively for outdoor 'nature' recordings, 
>> including much at dead-of-night.
>> I've never had a real problem w. noise from the mic, (in reality, nature 
>> very noisy) - my problems have almost all been with RF and I would love a 
>> balanced solution.
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[John Leonard]

It's not so much the microphone, but what you connect it to: because of the 
relatively low sensitivity, you really need a low-noise pre-amp. I use a Metric 
Halo ULN-8, which works extremely well with the TetraMic. The ST450 outputs at 
line level, so mic pre-amps are not an issue. And of course, Australian nature 
is a damned site louder that the English variety...

Regards,

John

On 5 Nov 2013, at 07:57, David Worrall  wrote:

> I've used the TetraMic almost exclusively for outdoor 'nature' recordings, 
> including much at dead-of-night.
> I've never had a real problem w. noise from the mic, (in reality, nature very 
> noisy) - my problems have almost all been with RF and I would love a balanced 
> solution.
> 
> David
> 
> 

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[alan . varty]

Hello,

Another recording (CD) you may be interested in is "Real Life" by Simple Minds.

When played through a UHJ decoder and reasonable speakers it sounds absolutely 
stunning.

Some time before the album was released there was an item in the BBC TV science 
program "Tomorrows World" about the new (at that time) two speaker surround 
systems, Roland Space Sound and possibly Q Sound and there was mention in the 
program that the band Simple Minds were considering using some kind of surround 
sound on their next album (at that time).

There is no mention of any kind of surround equipment being used in the sleeve 
notes but of course this may have been intentional as a sort of blind test to 
see if there were any comments made about the production, good or bad.

Regards,
Alan



-Original Message-
From: Richard G Elen 
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Sent: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:24
Subject: Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?


On 05/11/2013 00:03, Mark Anderson wrote: 
> That is what lead me to contact you in '95 to get your 
> input on the rumor of Tina Turner-Break Every Rule being UHJ encoded. 
 
Of course that story was an odd one... the vocals were UHJ encoded but nothing 
else! 
 
==R 
 
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[Sursound] Re Storm - dropbox

[dw]

This is in my dropbox for a short time, for those without a freesound 
account.

The built-in player there is low bitrate.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gs67gis7br3f5fm/blustery%20showers.mp3
Really good with the right cans!
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[Sursound] Storm!

[dw]

http://www.freesound.org/people/dwareing/sounds/204958/
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard G Elen]

On 05/11/2013 00:03, Mark Anderson wrote:

That is what lead me to contact you in '95 to get your
input on the rumor of Tina Turner-Break Every Rule being UHJ encoded.


Of course that story was an odd one... the vocals were UHJ encoded but 
nothing else!


==R

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

Going back to Richard's original question, I have a theory
why some recordings appeared into our "Rumours" list.

I found several record titles for example from British automobile
magazines. They had articles about the Troy decoder.

I wonder if the people giving the demo to the journalist had played
both UHJ recordings as properly decoded, and some stereo
recordings, that created a nice spread of sound in the Stereo
Enhance (or Super Stereo, if you like the expression (I don't,
there's nothing Super in it)) mode of the decoder.

At that time there was only a handful of UHJ recordings available,
in addition to classical Nimbus.

It is my guess that for example the soundtrack of Mad Max, Beyond
Thunderdome was mentioned in an article because of this. After long
and tedious listening sessions (somebody's got to do it) I never found
anything UHJ in the mix.

If a journalist heard those recordings in the demo, he may have
assumed that they were surround.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

HI All

The previous posters already said it all.

I can only add that it is almost impossible to find out from an acoustic
Soundfield or other microphone setup recording, whether it is UHJ or not.

I don't know about higher developed ways of finding this out, but from a
sound engineer's point of wiew here's my 5 cents worth:

It is sometimes possible to see from a goniometer if a multitrack
recording from mono microphones has been encoded into UHJ. Or actually -
you can see the difference between a "normal" panned stereo and UHJ,
as the directions of individual panned sources can be detected from
"normal" stereo. They look like sharp(ish) direct lines, but UHJ doesn't
have such components anywhere else than on the edges of the two speaker
stereo, ie. at -45 and +45 degrees. In all directions there are phase 
differences

between the two channels.

The easiest direction is possibly at "North", 0 degrees, as a mono sound in
center front appears with a phase difference in UHJ. Unless there is an
effect or reverb in the vocalist's voice, which again produces phase 
differences.


- - -

There is one recording, in which I tried to find out which is binaural 
and which UHJ:

World Record, WWCD002, that is listed in the Discography.

Some of the tracks are Holophonics and some are UHJ. The CD cover doesn't
say which is which. I really couldn't tell the difference by looking at 
the goniometer.

The only way I could guess was listening. The Holophonic tracks appear to
localize outside the head, UHJ of course doesn't.

Eero
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