Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Speaker numbering

[Peter Lennox]

>
> > > >> 1  2
> > > >> 3   4
> > > >> 5   6
> > > >> 7  8
> > > >>
> > > >> There doesnt seem to be an standard way of doing this - I was
> curious
> > as
> > > >> to
> > > >> how other sursounders number their speakers ?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > -- next part --
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> > here,
> > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Augustine Leudar
> > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > > Company Number : NI635217
> > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > > Belfast BT88LL
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> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
>
> These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
>
> Dave Malham
> Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> The University of York
> York YO10 5DD
> UK
>
> 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering

[Marc Lavallée]

If speaker positions are expressed in terms of azimuth, elevation and
distance, the numbering could be a function of those 3 parameters.
--
Marc 

Le Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:03:44 +,
Dave Malham  a écrit :

> Absolutely - there speaks the voice of long experience. Never, never
> blindly trust labels on cables. If you do, sooner or later they'll
> turn round and bite. Labels help vastly but always run test signals
> to check things to be sure. Incidentally, Trinov make a 3-d mic
> system that is specifically designed for making acoustic measurements
> including, most importantly for this discussion, loudspeaker
> positions. See http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/3d-microphone/ .
> If you can measure the speaker positions directly (and have the time
> before the gig!) that avoids the need to get the labels right
> since,assuming you can route signals flexibly in your source system,
> you can just get everything right there.
> 
> If you don't want to do the acoustic measurements, just get the
> loudspeaker positions, a similar job can be done with cheaper,
> unmatched, electrets spaced more widely so that simple time-of-flight
> measurements can be used rather than acoustic analysis as I belief
> Trinnov are doing. That way you've only got the connections to the
> measurement system to get right to ensure you've gotten the speakers
> connected appropriately for your purposes.
> 
>Dave
> 
> On 19 November 2016 at 12:50, David Pickett  wrote:
> 
> > In order to check that everything is correct, despite one's
> > impeccable logic in imagining a virtual transformation matrix
> > between how one thinks the signals should be numbered and the
> > reality of the specific situation, I recommend that everyone have a
> > test recording that identifies each channel.  With this it is
> > relatively easy to check and correct, while avoiding total
> > confusion.
> >
> > David
> >
> > At 14:21 17-11-16, Peter Lennox wrote:  
> > >I once spent two days trying to understand the mapping of a 32
> > >(periphonic) speaker rig, as there were 3 different speaker
> > >numbering 'conventions' in use, by 3 different parties: one used
> > >counterclockwise numbering of 'slices' - middle, top, bottom,
> > >another used a similar system but clockwise, and another used
> > >weird kind of helical 'start at the top, downwards in stripes',
> > >kind of system. Each party thought their system was logical and
> > >obvious, so it didn't need documenting.
> > >Trying to understand what was actually wired to what was a
> > >comical  
> > nightmare.  
> > >
> > >Dr. Peter Lennox
> > >Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > >College of Arts
> > >University of Derby, UK
> > >e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > >t: 01332 593155
> > >https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > >https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > >-Original Message-
> > >From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > >Dave  
> > Malham  
> > >Sent: 17 November 2016 11:10
> > >To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > >Subject: Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering
> > >
> > >Your second layout is what I always tended to do when I had
> > >control of the numbering but when working in a venue other than
> > >your own you often  
> > don't.  
> > >Personally, I'm not sure about "standards" for something as
> > >variable as a multispeaker array since I would ALWAYS want to
> > >check that they really, really were connected to the standard - I
> > >have been caught out too many times over the years :-(
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >PS Actually, I would usually check my own rig, just in case someone
> > >had played silly buggers with the leads since last time I used it.
> > >Like I said, been caught out too many times
> > >
> > >
> > >On 16 November 2016 at 22:12, Augustine Leudar
> > > > >
> > >wrote:
> > >  
> > >> How do you number you arrays - there seems to be two ways I've
> > >> come across.. Using the example of an octophonic array The first
> > >> way seems to be circular :
> > >>
> > >>   1   2
> > >> 83
> > >> 74
> > >>6   5
> > >>
> > >> The other way is as follows :
> > >>
> > >>1  2
> > >> 3   4
> > >> 5   6
> > >>7  8
> > >>
> > >> There doesnt seem to be an standard way of doing this - I was
> > >> curious as to how other sursounders number their speakers ?
> > >> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
> > >> scrubbed...
> > >> URL: >  
> > attachments/20161116/493aaff8/attachment.html>  
> > >> ___
> > >> Sursound mailing list
> > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > >>  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >
> > >As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> > >
> > >These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the
> > >Universi

Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering

[Dave Malham]

t;
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> >
> >These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
> >
> >Dave Malham
> >Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> >The University of York
> >York YO10 5DD
> >UK
> >
> >'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
> >-- next part --
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >17/5bf90225/attachment.html>
> >___
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> >Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> >here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> >
> >The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> >reserves the right to monitor email traffic.
> >If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the
> >sender and let them know.
> >
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering

[Augustine Leudar]

1
> >17/5bf90225/attachment.html>
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> >
> >
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> >reserves the right to monitor email traffic.
> >If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the
> >sender and let them know.
> >
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-- 
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering

[David Pickett]

In order to check that everything is correct, despite one's 
impeccable logic in imagining a virtual transformation matrix between 
how one thinks the signals should be numbered and the reality of the 
specific situation, I recommend that everyone have a test recording 
that identifies each channel.  With this it is relatively easy to 
check and correct, while avoiding total confusion.


David

At 14:21 17-11-16, Peter Lennox wrote:
>I once spent two days trying to understand the mapping of a 32
>(periphonic) speaker rig, as there were 3 different speaker numbering
>'conventions' in use, by 3 different parties: one used
>counterclockwise numbering of 'slices' - middle, top, bottom, another
>used a similar system but clockwise, and another used weird kind of
>helical 'start at the top, downwards in stripes', kind of system. Each
>party thought their system was logical and obvious, so it didn't need
>documenting.
>Trying to understand what was actually wired to what was a comical nightmare.
>
>Dr. Peter Lennox
>Senior Lecturer in Perception
>College of Arts
>University of Derby, UK
>e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
>t: 01332 593155
>https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
>https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
Dave Malham

>Sent: 17 November 2016 11:10
>To: Surround Sound discussion group 
>Subject: Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering
>
>Your second layout is what I always tended to do when I had control of
>the numbering but when working in a venue other than your own you 
often don't.

>Personally, I'm not sure about "standards" for something as variable
>as a multispeaker array since I would ALWAYS want to check that they
>really, really were connected to the standard - I have been caught out
>too many times over the years :-(
>
>Dave
>
>PS Actually, I would usually check my own rig, just in case someone
>had played silly buggers with the leads since last time I used it.
>Like I said, been caught out too many times
>
>
>On 16 November 2016 at 22:12, Augustine Leudar 
>wrote:
>
>> How do you number you arrays - there seems to be two ways I've come
>> across.. Using the example of an octophonic array The first way seems
>> to be circular :
>>
>>   1   2
>> 83
>> 74
>>6   5
>>
>> The other way is as follows :
>>
>>1  2
>> 3   4
>> 5   6
>>7  8
>>
>> There doesnt seem to be an standard way of doing this - I was curious
>> as to how other sursounders number their speakers ?
>> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL: > 
attachments/20161116/493aaff8/attachment.html>

>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
>
>--
>
>As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
>
>These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
>
>Dave Malham
>Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
>The University of York
>York YO10 5DD
>UK
>
>'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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>
>
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>reserves the right to monitor email traffic.
>If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the
>sender and let them know.
>
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Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Speaker numbering

[Augustine Leudar]

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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Augustine Leudar
> > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > > Company Number : NI635217
> > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > > Belfast BT88LL
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> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
>
> These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
>
> Dave Malham
> Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> The University of York
> York YO10 5DD
> UK
>
> 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Speaker numbering

[Dave Malham]

I don't think I would entirely agree that loudspeaker orchestras were all
"originally intended for diffusing stereo works". Mostly, yes indeed they
were, but particularly in the earlier days (1950's or before) the sources
were mostly mono (Pierre Schaeffer) or crudely linked (like the multiple
optical recorders used for Disney's Fantasia) multichannel. I think there
is something in the "stereo" thing but it's simpler than appearance of
loudspeaker orchestra diffusion or potentiometre d'espace based
systems (Jacques
Poullin) or whatever, it's just that by the 1960's stereo amplifiers were
widely available and many of us  used bunches of them rather than double
the number of mono units (one Quad 303 in place of two Quad II valve amps,
in my case at York). This leads almost automatically to going left-right,
left-right, left-right, left-right from front to back.

Dave


On 18 November 2016 at 16:24, Phi Shu  wrote:

> and that's probably why there is no "standard," all the well known large
> arrays use proprietary systems.
>
> In contrast, so called loudspeaker orchestras - originally intended for
> diffusing stereo works - tend to apply the rationale of having multiple
> stereo pairs - mapped directly to individual faders - and I would guess
> it's for this reason that the numbering is as such in the second numbered
> sequence you posted; because an acousmatic composer who composes an
> octophonc work for that set-up can more easily present it, or even diffuse
> it, in a setting that uses multiple speaker pairs.
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:54 AM, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Not really Gerard - there's plenty of techniques on spatial audio that
> dont
> > use decoders and have nothing to do with ambisonics.
> >
> > On 18 November 2016 at 00:46, Gerard Lardner  wrote:
> >
> > > Surely it must depend on the convention used in your decoder software.
> > For
> > > example, Harpex-B uses
> > >
> > > 1  8
> > >   2  7
> > >   3  6
> > > 4  5
> > >
> > > for an 8-speaker horizontal ring, or
> > >
> > > 1  6
> > >   2  5
> > > 3  4
> > >
> > > for a 6-speaker ring, but VVMic uses
> > >
> > > 1  2
> > >   3  4
> > > 5  6
> > >
> > > Gerard Lardner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16/11/2016 22:12, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > >
> > >> How do you number you arrays - there seems to be two ways I've come
> > >> across.. Using the example of an octophonic array
> > >> The first way seems to be circular :
> > >>
> > >>1   2
> > >> 83
> > >> 74
> > >> 6   5
> > >>
> > >> The other way is as follows :
> > >>
> > >> 1  2
> > >> 3   4
> > >> 5   6
> > >> 7  8
> > >>
> > >> There doesnt seem to be an standard way of doing this - I was curious
> as
> > >> to
> > >> how other sursounders number their speakers ?
> > >>
> > >>
> > > -- next part --
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> > >
> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > Company Number : NI635217
> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > Belfast BT88LL
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