Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Marc Lavallée]

Le 27/05/2019 à 20:55, Aaron Heller a écrit :


The soundbars I've heard sound like they use crosstalk cancellation (aka
transaural stereo) to achieve surround effects. I believe the work of Edgar
Choueiri and his students at Princeton represents the state of the art in
that area.
https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/index.html


For binaural xtalk cancellation, there's probably nothing better than 
the BACCH4Mac software (by Edgar Choueiri); it creates a virtual 
physical barrier (a mandatory experience for any serious audiophile, 
using just a foam/wooden board). I have an older version of the 
BACCH4Mac software, and even with my cheap binaural microphones and a 
Zoom H2 (as a USB interface) I can create a custom profile that works 
well enough. I hope to build a better binaural microphone because I 
can't afford the BACCH-BM microphone, but those with deep enough pockets 
should just get it with the full BACCH4Mac package, and finally enjoy 
their home stereo. It really is impressive. The only problem is that the 
room should be treated to avoid early reflections, or else it won't work.


Too bad I can't understand the maths from the article (Aaron can): 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264886721_Optimal_Crosstalk_Cancellation_for_Binaural_Audio_with_Two_Loudspeakers



Also Ralph Glasgal, an occasional poster on sursound --
http://www.ambiophonics.org


It kinda work, but I never was fully convinced... That said, depending 
on the implementation of the RACE algorithm and some luck, results can 
be quite interesting, even enjoyable. If the RACE algorithm is being 
used with soundbars, then it should be possible to build DIY RACE 
soundbars using affordable DSP chips.


I hope that Fons can tell us more about his soundbar (if his employer 
allows it).


Marc



Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US




On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:43 PM Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

Hi Douglas -
I dont think he was referring to Atmos soundbars just Atmos in general .
Atmos will of course work nicely being a 9.1 (or is it 11.1 ?) bed with
objects operating  within that over an unlimited number of speakers (or is
it 128 max)  - as such its true surround (in that the speakers od actually
surround the litener);  .
However its not particularily innovative in that it combines stuff thats
been around for years -  (ambisonics can decode to different speaker

arrays

from one file for example and I assume the objects move around using
amplitude panning). Then youve got things like DBAP which have the
potential to create far more convincing 3D audio scenes that ATMOS and
thats been around a lot longer.
But no here we just refer to soundbars in general I think. I find it very
unlikely though that an "ATMOS" soundbar would give the impression of a
sound being behind the listener than a basical quad setup where there
actually are two speakers behind the listener.
I agree  placebo definately plays a role in a lot of spatial audio.

On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 22:00, Douglas Murray  wrote:


On May 27, 2019, at 12:09 PM, mgraves mstvp.com 

wrote:

See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality.

Dolby is especially good in that arena.

Michael Graves

Michael,

Are you referring to the Dolby Atmos sound bars and ceiling bouncing
speakers? If so I agree. But as a film sound designer, I don’t believe

I am

succumbing to marketing hype when I say that Dolby Atmos in a cinema
setting, with its full range surrounds and speakers in what were gaps

near

the screen, is a real improvement over other earlier surround formats

for

cinema. Clearly Dolby is trying to generate profits from the mass home
market rather than only from the small cinema world. It’s probable that

any

sound bar, whether “Atmos” or not, will be an upgrade for whomever buys

it,

so happy customers, even if the hype is not lived up to. Maybe it’s the
placebo effect that makes these things work?

Doug Murray
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Company Number : NI635217
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Aaron Heller]

The soundbars I've heard sound like they use crosstalk cancellation (aka
transaural stereo) to achieve surround effects. I believe the work of Edgar
Choueiri and his students at Princeton represents the state of the art in
that area.
   https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/index.html

Also Ralph Glasgal, an occasional poster on sursound --
http://www.ambiophonics.org

Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US




On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:43 PM Augustine Leudar 
wrote:
>
> Hi Douglas -
> I dont think he was referring to Atmos soundbars just Atmos in general .
> Atmos will of course work nicely being a 9.1 (or is it 11.1 ?) bed with
> objects operating  within that over an unlimited number of speakers (or is
> it 128 max)  - as such its true surround (in that the speakers od actually
> surround the litener);  .
> However its not particularily innovative in that it combines stuff thats
> been around for years -  (ambisonics can decode to different speaker
arrays
> from one file for example and I assume the objects move around using
> amplitude panning). Then youve got things like DBAP which have the
> potential to create far more convincing 3D audio scenes that ATMOS and
> thats been around a lot longer.
> But no here we just refer to soundbars in general I think. I find it very
> unlikely though that an "ATMOS" soundbar would give the impression of a
> sound being behind the listener than a basical quad setup where there
> actually are two speakers behind the listener.
> I agree  placebo definately plays a role in a lot of spatial audio.
>
> On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 22:00, Douglas Murray  wrote:
>
> >
> > > On May 27, 2019, at 12:09 PM, mgraves mstvp.com 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality.
> > Dolby is especially good in that arena.
> > >
> > > Michael Graves
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> > Are you referring to the Dolby Atmos sound bars and ceiling bouncing
> > speakers? If so I agree. But as a film sound designer, I don’t believe
I am
> > succumbing to marketing hype when I say that Dolby Atmos in a cinema
> > setting, with its full range surrounds and speakers in what were gaps
near
> > the screen, is a real improvement over other earlier surround formats
for
> > cinema. Clearly Dolby is trying to generate profits from the mass home
> > market rather than only from the small cinema world. It’s probable that
any
> > sound bar, whether “Atmos” or not, will be an upgrade for whomever buys
it,
> > so happy customers, even if the hype is not lived up to. Maybe it’s the
> > placebo effect that makes these things work?
> >
> > Doug Murray
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Douglas -
I dont think he was referring to Atmos soundbars just Atmos in general .
Atmos will of course work nicely being a 9.1 (or is it 11.1 ?) bed with
objects operating  within that over an unlimited number of speakers (or is
it 128 max)  - as such its true surround (in that the speakers od actually
surround the litener);  .
However its not particularily innovative in that it combines stuff thats
been around for years -  (ambisonics can decode to different speaker arrays
from one file for example and I assume the objects move around using
amplitude panning). Then youve got things like DBAP which have the
potential to create far more convincing 3D audio scenes that ATMOS and
thats been around a lot longer.
But no here we just refer to soundbars in general I think. I find it very
unlikely though that an "ATMOS" soundbar would give the impression of a
sound being behind the listener than a basical quad setup where there
actually are two speakers behind the listener.
I agree  placebo definately plays a role in a lot of spatial audio.

On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 22:00, Douglas Murray  wrote:

>
> > On May 27, 2019, at 12:09 PM, mgraves mstvp.com 
> wrote:
> >
> > See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality.
> Dolby is especially good in that arena.
> >
> > Michael Graves
>
> Michael,
>
> Are you referring to the Dolby Atmos sound bars and ceiling bouncing
> speakers? If so I agree. But as a film sound designer, I don’t believe I am
> succumbing to marketing hype when I say that Dolby Atmos in a cinema
> setting, with its full range surrounds and speakers in what were gaps near
> the screen, is a real improvement over other earlier surround formats for
> cinema. Clearly Dolby is trying to generate profits from the mass home
> market rather than only from the small cinema world. It’s probable that any
> sound bar, whether “Atmos” or not, will be an upgrade for whomever buys it,
> so happy customers, even if the hype is not lived up to. Maybe it’s the
> placebo effect that makes these things work?
>
> Doug Murray
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Douglas Murray]

> On May 27, 2019, at 12:09 PM, mgraves mstvp.com  wrote:
> 
> See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality. Dolby is 
> especially good in that arena.
> 
> Michael Graves

Michael,

Are you referring to the Dolby Atmos sound bars and ceiling bouncing speakers? 
If so I agree. But as a film sound designer, I don’t believe I am succumbing to 
marketing hype when I say that Dolby Atmos in a cinema setting, with its full 
range surrounds and speakers in what were gaps near the screen, is a real 
improvement over other earlier surround formats for cinema. Clearly Dolby is 
trying to generate profits from the mass home market rather than only from the 
small cinema world. It’s probable that any sound bar, whether “Atmos” or not, 
will be an upgrade for whomever buys it, so happy customers, even if the hype 
is not lived up to. Maybe it’s the placebo effect that makes these things work?

Doug Murray
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

Id definately be interested to hear what you come up with Fons .
Doby Atmos !! Yep that too.

On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 20:10, mgraves mstvp.com  wrote:

> See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality. Dolby
> is especially good in that arena.
>
> Michael Graves
> mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
> c(713) 201-1262
> sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> skype mjgraves
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound  On Behalf Of Fons
> Adriaensen
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2019 1:45 PM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 02:44:28PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> > /beginrant : According to the article below soundbars work not as any
> > kind of knockoff WFS but by "bouncing" sound off the walls tro get it
> > to appear to be behind you. How can it be that this actually sells and
> > is endorrsed by industry "proffesionals" and "experts" ?  when anyone
> > can quite clearly hear the sound does not appear to be behind them
> >
> > http://www.build.com.au/how-soundbar-works
> >
> >  I have never experienced on that makes the sound appear to be
> > ~"behind" me as the above claims they can do. They can sound nice
> > though but compared to actually having two speaker sbehind you as in a
> > quad setup - no. /rantover
>
> Interesting subject, as I'm currently involved in developing exactly such
> a product.
>
> The article you refer is obviously BS,pure,liquid, as are all such claims.
> There is no way that bouncing beams on the walls (or ceiling) can produce
> anything comparable to having speakers in the right place.
>
> But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do something that would
> satisfy the average user watching B-movies with lots of silly sound effects
> (usually to render scenes of gratuitous violence) on his wide-screen TV.
>
> But yes, this is just marketing.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> ___
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[mgraves mstvp . com]

See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality. Dolby is 
especially good in that arena.

Michael Graves
mgra...@mstvp.com
http://www.mgraves.org
o(713) 861-4005
c(713) 201-1262
sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
skype mjgraves



-Original Message-
From: Sursound  On Behalf Of Fons Adriaensen
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2019 1:45 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 02:44:28PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:

> /beginrant : According to the article below soundbars work not as any 
> kind of knockoff WFS but by "bouncing" sound off the walls tro get it 
> to appear to be behind you. How can it be that this actually sells and 
> is endorrsed by industry "proffesionals" and "experts" ?  when anyone 
> can quite clearly hear the sound does not appear to be behind them
> 
> http://www.build.com.au/how-soundbar-works
> 
>  I have never experienced on that makes the sound appear to be 
> ~"behind" me as the above claims they can do. They can sound nice 
> though but compared to actually having two speaker sbehind you as in a 
> quad setup - no. /rantover

Interesting subject, as I'm currently involved in developing exactly such a 
product. 

The article you refer is obviously BS,pure,liquid, as are all such claims. 
There is no way that bouncing beams on the walls (or ceiling) can produce 
anything comparable to having speakers in the right place.

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do something that would satisfy 
the average user watching B-movies with lots of silly sound effects (usually to 
render scenes of gratuitous violence) on his wide-screen TV.

But yes, this is just marketing.

Ciao,

--
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 02:44:28PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:

> /beginrant : According to the article below soundbars work not as any kind
> of knockoff WFS but by "bouncing" sound off the walls tro get it to appear
> to be behind you. How can it be that this actually sells and is endorrsed
> by industry "proffesionals" and "experts" ?  when anyone can quite clearly
> hear the sound does not appear to be behind them
> 
> http://www.build.com.au/how-soundbar-works
> 
>  I have never experienced on that makes the sound appear to be ~"behind" me
> as the above claims they can do. They can sound nice though but compared to
> actually having two speaker sbehind you as in a quad setup - no. /rantover

Interesting subject, as I'm currently involved in developing exactly
such a product. 

The article you refer is obviously BS,pure,liquid, as are all such
claims. There is no way that bouncing beams on the walls (or ceiling)
can produce anything comparable to having speakers in the right place.

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do something that would
satisfy the average user watching B-movies with lots of silly sound 
effects (usually to render scenes of gratuitous violence) on his
wide-screen TV.

But yes, this is just marketing.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Justin Bennett]

It would be interesting to try them in a room with reflective walls
and one without, to see if it makes much difference!

how would they create beams with only seven speakers? magik!

best, Justin


Justin Bennett

jus...@justinbennett.nl
www.justinbennett.nl
http://jubilee-art.org/

> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 14:44:28 +0100
> From: Augustine Leudar 
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> /beginrant : According to the article below soundbars work not as any kind
> of knockoff WFS but by "bouncing" sound off the walls tro get it to appear
> to be behind you. How can it be that this actually sells and is endorrsed
> by industry "proffesionals" and "experts" ?  when anyone can quite clearly
> hear the sound does not appear to be behind them
> 
> http://www.build.com.au/how-soundbar-works
> 
> I have never experienced on that makes the sound appear to be ~"behind" me
> as the above claims they can do. They can sound nice though but compared to
> actually having two speaker sbehind you as in a quad setup - no. /rantover
> 
> up next: Zone amplifiers - an expensive wastew of space
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
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[Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

/beginrant : According to the article below soundbars work not as any kind
of knockoff WFS but by "bouncing" sound off the walls tro get it to appear
to be behind you. How can it be that this actually sells and is endorrsed
by industry "proffesionals" and "experts" ?  when anyone can quite clearly
hear the sound does not appear to be behind them

http://www.build.com.au/how-soundbar-works

 I have never experienced on that makes the sound appear to be ~"behind" me
as the above claims they can do. They can sound nice though but compared to
actually having two speaker sbehind you as in a quad setup - no. /rantover

up next: Zone amplifiers - an expensive wastew of space

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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