Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 08:19:40PM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > However: < Will > you mix an Atmos track in this way, in practice? (Doubts > here.) Elevated sources are often effects such as the helicopter hovering above. You typically don't have too many of them, so it makes sense to encode them separately as objects. Given the choice between say 7.1.4 or 5.1 with up to six objects I'd probably prefer the latter (for movie content at least). > (Not to forget that your bed will be probably 5.1, and in the home system > you don't have sooo many objects to distribute either...) In theory up to 128 channels... the physical channel is the limit here, not the Atmos encoding. > Bonne nuit, :-) Gute Nacht, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 04:45:45PM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > Well, Mpeg-H Audio uses N3D. It means people might "master" in N3D as well. Mpeg-H, like Atmos, is a delivery format used to encode the final result of a production. It is not used for intermediate storage of data that still needs to be worked on. So it doesn't matter in a production environment if you use N3D or SN3D. What matters in practice is that all your tools use the same convention, you don't want to do conversions all the time. All my tools (most of which I've written myself) use SN3D as default, with the option of N3D if and when required. Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
Granted: You could set objects anywhere, even "under the horizon". However: < Will > you mix an Atmos track in this way, in practice? (Doubts here.) (Not to forget that your bed will be probably 5.1, and in the home system you don't have sooo many objects to distribute either...) Bonne nuit, Stefan - Mensagem de Fons Adriaensen - Data: Mon, 24 May 2021 21:03:07 +0200 De: Fons Adriaensen On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 04:41:09PM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: I see this, but (probably) the vertical resolution of Atmos will be limited for binaural playback as well. Not if the elevated source is encoded as a separate object. The binaural renderer will use the metadata and can reproduce each it exactly where it is supposed to be. Boa noite, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list surso...@music.vt.eduhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. - Fim da mensagem de Fons Adriaensen - -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/4f69cec0/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 04:41:09PM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > I see this, but (probably) the vertical resolution of Atmos will be limited > for binaural playback as well. Not if the elevated source is encoded as a separate object. The binaural renderer will use the metadata and can reproduce each it exactly where it is supposed to be. Boa noite, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces
Hi Tom, Scaling 3D speaker setups to larger spaces is a challenging topic. If you are willing to consider hardware processing for the larger space, I could only encourage you to consider the L-ISA technology from L-Acoustics, that my team develops. It would tick almost all the boxes of your requirements: - software renderer to work in the studio on speakers or headphones (headtracked binaural) - hardware renderer for real-time, large-scale performances - it includes a "scale simulation" mode to anticipate issues you will face when in the larger space (timing issues, precedence issues, speaker coverage issues, etc.) - it is not Ambisonics based, but object-based - 3D panning and 3D room engine - DAW friendly with control plugins AU, VST, AAX, mac / windows. - Integrates with a 3D speaker design software (Soundvision) to accurately design your system for the larger space, including SPL coverage, timing metrics, localisation metrics. Have a quick look at www.l-isa-immersive.com. You will find some more details on the technology, but also many stories relating to large-scale immersive audio projects, such as the Coachella festival, Panorama festival, the UAE National Day, the Tate Modern Turbine Hall, etc. I actually live in New Cross Gate (London), not far from your studio, happy to discuss your project further ! Guillaume Le lun. 24 mai 2021 à 14:59, Mikhail Pozdniakov a écrit : > Hi Tom, > > I don't have anything useful to contribute on your set of questions, but I > did have a few for you: > > When mixing for this project, did you lie down on the floor of your studio > to check if the mix works? Going from standing to lieing down will > effectively make the listeners inhabit 2pi space with all the glories of > proximity effect on bass/lower mids and lack of rear reflections. > > Also, do you use those KEF 107s in your normal workflow? :) > > Thanks, > Mikhail > > > From: Sursound on behalf of Tom Slater < > slater...@gmail.com> > Sent: May 24, 2021 07:52 > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: [Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces > > Hi everyone, > > I have a project coming up that requires me to create a spatial mix of some > music and then transfer it to a much larger space. The details are: > > The space is circular with a 12m radius and a 3.5m ceiling. > > We can use a large number of speakers (48 or more) > > Budget is sufficient to consider all hardware processing options. > > The audience will be lying down to form concentric circles, facing the > ceiling. The outermost circle will be sitting with their back against the > wall slightly tilted up. (there is a visual element to the show that > requires this audience placement). > > I will be producing and mixing the music in my studio in which I have a > 25.2 dome-shaped speaker layout (8, 8, 4, 4, 1.2). See images of the studio > here https://callandresponse.org.uk/ > > I use the Blue Ripple suite of plugins and Rapture 3D Advanced decoder. > > When transferring mixes from my studio to other venues I usually build a 3D > model in Sketchup, design the speaker array for the venue and then extract > the cartesian speaker coordinates from the 3D Sketchup model, build a new > decoder in Rapture 3D Advanced and render a polywav for playback in the > venue. > > This has always worked well but I just wanted to see if there was anything > I could do to improve this method, particularly when transferring to > larger spaces. > > I read about this project at The Royal Danish Academy of Music > <https://www.digitalaudio.dk/page2169.aspx?recordid2169=1149> where they > used a DAD AX32 as a delay matrix to delay certain speaker channels to > create a virtual hemisphere. I guess they then build a bespoke decoder with > the same speaker positions as the virtual hemisphere and then render to > that. > > I'm particularly interested in the community's experience using hardware > delay matrices in conjunction with ambisonics. *OR *instead of ambisonics, > such as Meyer Galaxy processors and their Space Map Go system, D&B > Soundscape, etc. etc. > > I’m also very interested to hear experiences of using systems like SpaceMap > Go or D&B Soundscape in conjunction with your favourite DAW i.e. how well > have did they fit into your creative sound design and composition workflows > as studio tools? > > Thanks in advance everyone. > > Best, > > Tom > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/a701c436/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
Well, Mpeg-H Audio uses N3D. It means people might "master" in N3D as well. If not you convert from SN3D to N3D... So what IS a rational choice? People/committees have decided in different ways, including you and your committee- "Take that". < g > Stefan P.S.: I would say that the ITU definition is then best practice. You are of course entitled to use SN3D, even against your former conviction. (No objection.) OR you chose N3D... - Mensagem de Fons Adriaensen - Data: Mon, 24 May 2021 10:53:25 +0200 De: Fons Adriaensen Assunto: Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files))) Para: sursound@music.vt.edu On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 01:10:10AM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.2094-1-201706-I!!PDF-E.pdf That look like the typical 'standard by committee' enumerating all possible options rather than defining a rationally motivated choice. Happens all the time... Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list surso...@music.vt.eduhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. - Fim da mensagem de Fons Adriaensen - -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/7d459f0a/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
I see this, but (probably) the vertical resolution of Atmos will be limited for binaural playback as well. (It does not < have > to be, but still...) Best, Stefan - Mensagem de Fons Adriaensen - Data: Mon, 24 May 2021 10:49:34 +0200 De: Fons Adriaensen Assunto: Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files))) Para: sursound@music.vt.edu On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 12:52:12AM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: Depends how you see this, because in practice the home system of Atmos is confined to two rings of speakers, and so you are confined to some vertical perspective which is quite reduced. Currently marketed home systems may have this limitation, but AFAIK there is nothing in the Atmos format itself that imposes it. I guess that very few home users would be prepared to install all the speakers required for higher vertical resolution, regardless of the format used to deliver the content. Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list surso...@music.vt.eduhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. - Fim da mensagem de Fons Adriaensen - -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/8c808a47/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces
Hi Tom, I don't have anything useful to contribute on your set of questions, but I did have a few for you: When mixing for this project, did you lie down on the floor of your studio to check if the mix works? Going from standing to lieing down will effectively make the listeners inhabit 2pi space with all the glories of proximity effect on bass/lower mids and lack of rear reflections. Also, do you use those KEF 107s in your normal workflow? :) Thanks, Mikhail From: Sursound on behalf of Tom Slater Sent: May 24, 2021 07:52 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces Hi everyone, I have a project coming up that requires me to create a spatial mix of some music and then transfer it to a much larger space. The details are: The space is circular with a 12m radius and a 3.5m ceiling. We can use a large number of speakers (48 or more) Budget is sufficient to consider all hardware processing options. The audience will be lying down to form concentric circles, facing the ceiling. The outermost circle will be sitting with their back against the wall slightly tilted up. (there is a visual element to the show that requires this audience placement). I will be producing and mixing the music in my studio in which I have a 25.2 dome-shaped speaker layout (8, 8, 4, 4, 1.2). See images of the studio here https://callandresponse.org.uk/ I use the Blue Ripple suite of plugins and Rapture 3D Advanced decoder. When transferring mixes from my studio to other venues I usually build a 3D model in Sketchup, design the speaker array for the venue and then extract the cartesian speaker coordinates from the 3D Sketchup model, build a new decoder in Rapture 3D Advanced and render a polywav for playback in the venue. This has always worked well but I just wanted to see if there was anything I could do to improve this method, particularly when transferring to larger spaces. I read about this project at The Royal Danish Academy of Music <https://www.digitalaudio.dk/page2169.aspx?recordid2169=1149> where they used a DAD AX32 as a delay matrix to delay certain speaker channels to create a virtual hemisphere. I guess they then build a bespoke decoder with the same speaker positions as the virtual hemisphere and then render to that. I'm particularly interested in the community's experience using hardware delay matrices in conjunction with ambisonics. *OR *instead of ambisonics, such as Meyer Galaxy processors and their Space Map Go system, D&B Soundscape, etc. etc. I’m also very interested to hear experiences of using systems like SpaceMap Go or D&B Soundscape in conjunction with your favourite DAW i.e. how well have did they fit into your creative sound design and composition workflows as studio tools? Thanks in advance everyone. Best, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/a701c436/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/aa80ea61/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
[Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces
Hi everyone, I have a project coming up that requires me to create a spatial mix of some music and then transfer it to a much larger space. The details are: The space is circular with a 12m radius and a 3.5m ceiling. We can use a large number of speakers (48 or more) Budget is sufficient to consider all hardware processing options. The audience will be lying down to form concentric circles, facing the ceiling. The outermost circle will be sitting with their back against the wall slightly tilted up. (there is a visual element to the show that requires this audience placement). I will be producing and mixing the music in my studio in which I have a 25.2 dome-shaped speaker layout (8, 8, 4, 4, 1.2). See images of the studio here https://callandresponse.org.uk/ I use the Blue Ripple suite of plugins and Rapture 3D Advanced decoder. When transferring mixes from my studio to other venues I usually build a 3D model in Sketchup, design the speaker array for the venue and then extract the cartesian speaker coordinates from the 3D Sketchup model, build a new decoder in Rapture 3D Advanced and render a polywav for playback in the venue. This has always worked well but I just wanted to see if there was anything I could do to improve this method, particularly when transferring to larger spaces. I read about this project at The Royal Danish Academy of Music <https://www.digitalaudio.dk/page2169.aspx?recordid2169=1149> where they used a DAD AX32 as a delay matrix to delay certain speaker channels to create a virtual hemisphere. I guess they then build a bespoke decoder with the same speaker positions as the virtual hemisphere and then render to that. I'm particularly interested in the community's experience using hardware delay matrices in conjunction with ambisonics. *OR *instead of ambisonics, such as Meyer Galaxy processors and their Space Map Go system, D&B Soundscape, etc. etc. I’m also very interested to hear experiences of using systems like SpaceMap Go or D&B Soundscape in conjunction with your favourite DAW i.e. how well have did they fit into your creative sound design and composition workflows as studio tools? Thanks in advance everyone. Best, Tom -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/a701c436/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 01:10:10AM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.2094-1-201706-I!!PDF-E.pdf That look like the typical 'standard by committee' enumerating all possible options rather than defining a rationally motivated choice. Happens all the time... Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 12:52:12AM +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > Depends how you see this, because in practice the home system of Atmos is > confined to two rings of speakers, and so you are confined to some vertical > perspective which is quite reduced. Currently marketed home systems may have this limitation, but AFAIK there is nothing in the Atmos format itself that imposes it. I guess that very few home users would be prepared to install all the speakers required for higher vertical resolution, regardless of the format used to deliver the content. Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 09:44:14AM +0200, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: > This made for a bad experience when listening to the file with Omnitone, > bad clipping distortion. > I had about 6 dB headroom in b format file but that is not enough🤗 If your file has headroom and Omnitone clips on decoding it, then either there is something wrong with Omnitone, or you just set the volume too high :-). Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Matroska (was: ALAC (was Re: WavPack (was: Re: Ambix files)))
SN3D against N3D As I am a naive user and do not remember all intricate details of Ambisonics file formats I recently made the mistake to increase the gain for a recording when converting from 24 bit floats to 16 bit samples to minimize file size for web distribution. This made for a bad experience when listening to the file with Omnitone, bad clipping distortion. I had about 6 dB headroom in b format file but that is not enough🤗 Bo-Erik -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20210524/c4df245b/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
