Re: [Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Hi Tom,

Scaling 3D speaker setups to larger spaces is a challenging topic.
If you are willing to consider hardware processing for the larger space, I
could only encourage you to consider the L-ISA technology from L-Acoustics,
that my team develops. It would tick almost all the boxes of your
requirements:
- software renderer to work in the studio on speakers or headphones
(headtracked binaural)
- hardware renderer for real-time, large-scale performances
- it includes a "scale simulation" mode to anticipate issues you will face
when in the larger space (timing issues, precedence issues, speaker
coverage issues, etc.)
- it is not Ambisonics based, but object-based
- 3D panning and 3D room engine
- DAW friendly with control plugins AU, VST, AAX, mac / windows.
- Integrates with a 3D speaker design software (Soundvision) to accurately
design your system for the larger space, including SPL coverage, timing
metrics, localisation metrics.

Have a quick look at www.l-isa-immersive.com. You will find some more
details on the technology, but also many stories relating to large-scale
immersive audio projects, such as the Coachella festival, Panorama
festival, the UAE National Day, the Tate  Modern Turbine Hall, etc.

I actually live in New Cross Gate (London), not far from your studio, happy
to discuss your project further !

Guillaume


Le lun. 24 mai 2021 à 14:59, Mikhail Pozdniakov  a
écrit :

> Hi Tom,
>
> I don't have anything useful to contribute on your set of questions, but I
> did have a few for you:
>
> When mixing for this project, did you lie down on the floor of your studio
> to check if the mix works? Going from standing to lieing down will
> effectively make the listeners inhabit 2pi space with all the glories of
> proximity effect on bass/lower mids and lack of rear reflections.
>
> Also, do you use those KEF 107s in your normal workflow? :)
>
> Thanks,
> Mikhail
>
> 
> From: Sursound  on behalf of Tom Slater <
> slater...@gmail.com>
> Sent: May 24, 2021 07:52
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu 
> Subject: [Sursound] Ambisonics for larger spaces
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a project coming up that requires me to create a spatial mix of some
> music and then transfer it to a much larger space. The details are:
>
> The space is circular with a 12m radius and a 3.5m ceiling.
>
> We can use a large number of speakers (48 or more)
>
> Budget is sufficient to consider all hardware processing options.
>
> The audience will be lying down to form concentric circles, facing the
> ceiling. The outermost circle will be sitting with their back against the
> wall slightly tilted up. (there is a visual element to the show that
> requires this audience placement).
>
> I will be producing and mixing the music in my studio in which I have a
> 25.2 dome-shaped speaker layout (8, 8, 4, 4, 1.2). See images of the studio
> here https://callandresponse.org.uk/
>
> I use the Blue Ripple suite of plugins and Rapture 3D Advanced decoder.
>
> When transferring mixes from my studio to other venues I usually build a 3D
> model in Sketchup, design the speaker array for the venue and then extract
> the cartesian speaker coordinates from the 3D Sketchup model, build a new
> decoder in Rapture 3D Advanced and render a polywav for playback in the
> venue.
>
> This has always worked well but I just wanted to see if there was anything
> I could do to improve this method, particularly when transferring to
> larger spaces.
>
> I read about this project at The Royal Danish Academy of Music
>  where they
> used a DAD AX32 as a delay matrix to delay certain speaker channels to
> create a virtual hemisphere. I guess they then build a bespoke decoder with
> the same speaker positions as the virtual hemisphere and then render to
> that.
>
> I'm particularly interested in the community's experience using hardware
> delay matrices in conjunction with ambisonics. *OR *instead of ambisonics,
> such as Meyer Galaxy processors and their Space Map Go system, D&B
> Soundscape, etc. etc.
>
> I’m also very interested to hear experiences of using systems like SpaceMap
> Go or D&B Soundscape in conjunction with your favourite DAW i.e. how well
> have did they fit into your creative sound design and composition workflows
> as studio tools?
>
> Thanks in advance everyone.
>
> Best,
>
> Tom
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[Sursound] AES New York - L-ISA audio technology demo at ArtechHouse - oct 17th

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Dear sursounders,

For those who will be at AES NY,

L-Acoustics will be hosting a special event showcasing our L-ISA Immersive
Hyperreal Sound technology installed at the brand new ARTECHOUSE innovative
digital art space in Chelsea Market.
Join us on *October 17th* promptly at *7:00 pm* for remarks, beverages and
a viewing of the stunning Machine Hallucination installation by Refik
Anadol.
https://www.artechouse.com/nyc

The gallery is permanently equipped with a full 3D sound system and video
projection. A great canvas for digital projects !

Please RSVP by emailing tanya.hr...@l-acoustics.com

Best regards

Guillaume Le Nost
--
Director of Creative Technologies, L-Acoustics
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[Sursound] DSP / 3D audio R&D engineer position at L-ISA, London

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Dear all,

An exciting position is available at L-ISA <http://www.l-isa-immersive.com>,
London, UK, for a DSP / 3D Audio engineer to join the team and help shape
the future of live sound.
L-ISA is a small team part of L-Acoustics <http://www.l-acoustics.com>, a
leader in the Sound Reinforcement industry, with customers such as
Radiohead, Adele, Alt-J, Hollywood Bowl, Paris Philharmonie, the Olympic
Games... but also nightclubs such as Omnia, Printworks, Zero Gravity

We develop object-based solutions for immersive / 3D Audio for live shows,
with a focus on scalability from small to large events (up to stadiums).
These solutions are used for classical, pop or EDM concerts (Santa Barbara
Bowl, Lille Stadium, etc.), or creative A/V installations (Tate Modern,
Coachella Antartic Dome, Panorama NYC Dome, Puy Du Fou, etc.).

We are currently looking for a person with a strong background in Maths /
signal processing, and a keen interest in 3D audio, to join the R&D team
and contribute to new algorithms and concepts.

The LinkedIn job description is here:
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/456775261/

Please share this information to those interested!
I am happy to answer any questions directly.

Thanks for reading,

Guillaume Le Nost
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Yes the Biamp Tesira Amp 8175r has 8 analogue inputs as well as 8 avb
inputs.
It has 8 analogue speaker outputs
cf. back of the device picture:
https://www.biamp.com/images/default-source/hero/products/tesira/tesira_amp8150r_back.jpg



2017-06-29 12:24 GMT+01:00 Augustine Leudar :

> Guillaume -Im assuming this has analogue as well as digital outputs for
> each channel (I looked but couldnt find the specs)
>
> On 28 June 2017 at 22:17, Guillaume Le Nost 
> wrote:
>
> > Here is a link to a 8x 175w avb amplifier:
> > https://www.biamp.com/tesira-amp-8175r
> >
> > Guillaume
> >
> > > On 28 Jun 2017, at 22:06, Augustine Leudar 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Richard -
> > > There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape
> > is
> > > designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
> > > multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
> > > interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around
> the
> > > space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might
> be
> > > good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
> > > power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.
> > >
> > >> On 28 June 2017 at 21:16, Richard Foss  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was
> > recently
> > >> at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a
> > multi-speaker
> > >> system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks
> > great,
> > >> and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds
> > moving
> > >> across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you
> send? I
> > >> have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to
> provide
> > >> immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard
> > protocol
> > >> to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would
> indeed
> > >> need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On 2017-06-28 09:11 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Richard and Guillaume,
> > >>> Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a
> > tropical
> > >>> botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
> > >>> resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons)
> > and
> > >>> connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any
> > links to
> > >>> the highest channel count ones ?  I am not quite sure what advantage
> 4
> > *
> > >>> N-DAC8
> > >>> ($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a
> > Joeco
> > >>> other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB ,
> > bearing in
> > >>> mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
> > >>>  multichannel amplifiers.
> > >>>
> > >>> On 28 June 2017 at 19:55, Richard Foss  wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
> > >>>> channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the
> > same
> > >>>> network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their
> SPK-4P
> > >>>> Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then
> > have
> > >>>> 22
> > >>>> speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control
> then
> > >>>> all
> > >>>> travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again,
> all
> > >>>> speakers are synced to the same network master.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Richard.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 2017-06-28 07:39 PM, Guillaume Le Nost wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
> > >>>>> ethernet.
> > >>>>> It

Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Here is a link to a 8x 175w avb amplifier:
https://www.biamp.com/tesira-amp-8175r

Guillaume

> On 28 Jun 2017, at 22:06, Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richard -
> There is lots of things that pan all around the room but the soundscape is
> designed in pre production for this installation and then its just a
> multichannel file (or seperate mono ones). Other installations I do are
> interactive and so sounds are processed and panned in realtime around the
> space depending on the sensors used etc. Certainly the AVB thing might be
> good for some less inhospitable environments- I especially like the way
> power can be taken to the the speakers via the ethernet cable.
> 
>> On 28 June 2017 at 21:16, Richard Foss  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Augustine, this sounds like an interesting application. I was recently
>> at the Buddhist rhythm garden in Hong Kong and experienced a multi-speaker
>> system within the garden - it was very effective. The UTrack24 looks great,
>> and affordable. Do you control the internal DSP mixer to have sounds moving
>> across speakers or would this be pre-mixed into the channels you send? I
>> have been using mixer matrices within the N-DAC8s and SPK-4Ps to provide
>> immersive effects. The nice thing here is that you have a standard protocol
>> to enable this. To use the N-DAC8s for your application you would indeed
>> need to have 3 x N-DAC8s ($900) and a computer.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2017-06-28 09:11 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Richard and Guillaume,
>>> Interesting stuff. Two things to note - the installation is in a tropical
>>> botanic garden so I am using a certain type of speaker that is pretty
>>> resilient (used in saunas etc) whci is passive (for obvious reasons) and
>>> connected by speaker cable . The AVB amps sound interesting - any links to
>>> the highest channel count ones ?  I am not quite sure what advantage 4 *
>>> N-DAC8
>>> ($1200) + computer ($ ???) would get me over one Utrack 24 or even a Joeco
>>> other than the fact its connects via ethernet rather than USB , bearing in
>>> mind that the speaker will be connected analogue via a a couple of
>>>  multichannel amplifiers.
>>> 
>>> On 28 June 2017 at 19:55, Richard Foss  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, I agree with Guillaume - AVB is a good option. miniDSP sell an 8
>>>> channel box AVB box, the N-DAC8, for $299.
>>>> 
>>>> With three of these you have 24 channels, and they all run off the same
>>>> network clock. You would also need a small (4/5 port) switch.
>>>> 
>>>> A more expensive, but also easily configurable option is their SPK-4P
>>>> Power over Ethernet option ($395). For 22 channels, you would then have
>>>> 22
>>>> speakers connected to a 24 port switch. Power, audio, and control then
>>>> all
>>>> travel over one cable, which makes for easy configuration. Again, all
>>>> speakers are synced to the same network master.
>>>> 
>>>> Richard.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2017-06-28 07:39 PM, Guillaume Le Nost wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over
>>>>> ethernet.
>>>>> It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a
>>>>> recent os, and several options for avb enabled amplifiers are available:
>>>>> biamp, crown, l-acoustics to list a few.
>>>>> If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is
>>>>> relatively inexpensive.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
>>>>> 
>>>>>> netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 06/27/2017 07:52 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old
>>>>>> Minimac
>>>>>> with a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate
>>>>>> Dante
>>>>>> converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> robust if the 

Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Aside from dante, AVB is another option for multichannel audio over ethernet.
It is now available as standard (and for free) in any Mac running a recent os, 
and several options for avb enabled amplifiers are available: biamp, crown, 
l-acoustics to list a few.
If converters are required, the Motu AVB series can help, and is relatively 
inexpensive.

Guillaume

> On 28 Jun 2017, at 18:00, Jörn Nettingsmeier  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 06/27/2017 07:52 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>> see my post before last for what went wrong. How much are the Joecos ?
> 
> https://www.thomann.de/gb/joeco_bbr64_dante_blackbox_recorder.htm
> 
> However, if you go the Dante route, you might as well use an old Minimac with 
> a virtual soundcard (if 32 ch out is enough) and an appropriate Dante 
> converter. Should be cheaper, if you have the Mac lying around, and no less 
> robust if the hardware is otherwise ok.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
> Tel. +49 177 7937487
> 
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
> http://stackingdwarves.net
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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Speaking of passive coaxial speakers, maybe this information is gonna be of 
interest for some of you.
L-Acoustics has a new range of 5inches and 8inches products (5XT and X8).
The company is reknown for putting a lot of attention on the polar response / 
off-axis behavior.

I have heard the former 8 inches model (8XT) on a couple of HOA rigs, sounded 
great.

Guillaume

> Le 15 oct. 2015 à 09:38, Dave Malham  a écrit :
> 
> One thing I would be careful of on small, active speakers is the protection
> circuits. Sophisticated protection circuits thermally model (or even sense)
> the drivers and reduce the gain if one of them is getting near the limits.
> This can cause weird, signal dependent, image distortions when one of the
> speakers is driven harder and drops in gain (usually in the bass). Because
> the speaker doesn't just switch off, which you would hear, but simply goes
> a bit quieter, in an Ambisonic array of, say, 16 speakers, this doesn't
> shout out at you but just subtly distorts the image. Can be a really
> annoying and difficult to diagnose problem, especially when you haven't
> heard it before (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). With passive
> speakers, this doesn't happen - you just get the rattle from the cone
> hitting the endstops or the scrape of the melted voice coil against the
> sides of the air gap but at least the first of these warns you when you are
> near to damaging the speakers. Note that with small active speakers in
> particular, getting to 'normal' monitoring levels gets you right into the
> zone where the protection will keep cutting in and out :-(
> 
>   Dave
> 
> 
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>> 
>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>> 
>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> situation?
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Charles
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> 
> These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
> 
> Dave Malham
> Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> The University of York
> York YO10 5DD
> UK
> 
> 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available?

[Guillaume Le Nost]

Hi Adam
Do you know these guys ?
http://twobigears.com

Guillaume

> On 13 nov. 2014, at 04:52, Adam Somers  wrote:
> 
> To clarify, as a bunch of Stanford alumni (one of CCRMA myself), ambisonics
> was well known to us at Jaunt VR when we got started.  Through our dealings
> with Len at CoreSound we get connected to David who has provided immensely
> useful tools for A->B conversion, head-tracking, and real-time binaural
> downmix.
> 
> VR video (or as we call it, Cinematic VR) is in some ways the perfect
> use-case for ambisonics.  This year we've created hundreds, if not
> thousands, of b-format recordings with accompanying 360º 3D video.
> 
> Still, I've yet to find a solution for b-to-binaural which is as convincing
> as some of the BRIR-based object-sound spatialization packages (e.g. DTS
> HeadphoneX and Visisonics Realspace).  I think what's primarily lacking is
> externalization, which perhaps can be 'faked' with BRIRs.  I'm thinking of
> a 'virtual listening room' where the b-format recording is played through
> BRIRs instead of anechoic HRTFs.  Anyone have experience with that?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Adam Somers
> Jaunt, Inc.
> http://jauntvr.com
> 
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Stefan Schreiber 
> wrote:
> 
>> David McGriffy wrote:
>> 
>> There does seem to be a lot of interest in ambisonics to binaural these
>>> days.  It certainly seems that way to me since I’ve been immersed in it of
>>> late.
>>> 
>>> Stefan, if your suggestion to the folks at JauntVR is what turned them on
>>> to ambisonics, then I must thank you as I have been having a great time
>>> working with them to provide custom ambisonics code, including binaural
>>> conversion.
>> - They (JauntVR) have used Ambisonics before I even heard about them, so
>> Ambisonics didn't  need my help to be "discovered" by the JauntVR
>> development team... if there was any decisive "suggestion" to use
>> Ambisonics in this context, it was probably the fact that Ambisonics is an
>> established and very usable 3D audio format/framework. And further that we
>> have microphones to  record FOA (soundfield mic) or even HOA fields
>> (spherical array microphones, eigenmike etc.).
>> 
>> Binaural recordings would be another choice for "3D audio capture" -
>> binaural recordings are "colored" or personalised from the very start,
>> though. Even worse: How would you apply HT to binaural recordings? This
>> doesn't seem to work at all...
>> 
>> - In my (short) contact with JauntVR, I suggested (only) to consider the
>> use of some parametric decoder. (for example Harpex)
>> 
>> I expect that I will also have some level of binaural conversion out in
>>> general purpose plugins eventually.
>> 
>> Great news. Hopefully this won't take very long. The  demand  for this is
>> already  there - and probably will increase.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Stefan
>> 
>> 
>> David McGriffy
>>> VVAudio.com
>>> 
>>> On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Stefan Schreiber 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 Sampo Syreeni wrote:
 
 
 
> On 2014-11-12, Braxton Boren wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Our lab is working on some audio spatialization techniques that we'd
>> like to sync up with visual content over the Oculus Rift. We would like 
>> to
>> process the Ambisonic audio content separately (using head-tracking data
>> from the Oculus) for binaural rendering while the interactive VR visuals
>> are running on the Oculus.
> What is this, a sudden landslide? I *just* got a demo from Ville Pulkki
> on this precise stuff at Aalto, here. I'm betting you'd want to contact 
> him
> directly on this one.
 Well, but I < did > write to Ville Pulkki during last week about VR and
 other applications of Ambisonics and DirAC  (or in general: Ambisonics and
 parametric Ambisonics decoders). Which is probably just a further
 coincidence...
 
 Still waiting for the master's answer, though...:-D
 
 --
 "
 
 
 
> See Bo-Erik Sandholm's recent posting on sursound (on "VR applications")
> 
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.sursound/6227
 ...
 
 
 
> ... The combination of Ambisonics, DirAC and head-tracking (for
> binaural decoders) could be a real game-change development.
 "
 
 In any case, the VR people have already discovered Ambisonics some while
 ago -  I remember that I myself have suggested to some representant of
 Jaunt VR (obviously Jaunt VR is connected with the Oculus Rift train) to
 consider the use of Harpex. (thread retrievable via sursound archives)
 
 
 The bigger picture is of course that head-tracked Ambisonics seems to be
 a natural fit for VR audio - VR includes HT "by definition", and needs
 obviously some 3D audio infrastructure for the sound. Ambisonics offers
 both an established 3D audio framework and (importantly, too...) 3D audio
 ca