Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR project

[Martin Richards]

I'm mostly just an interested reader on this group having an historical 
interest in Ambisonics from days in the 70's when I was a member of the Oxford 
Tape-Recording Society (which MAG and Peter Craven ran) and continue the 
interest making amateur recordings in B format.
Although I have very limited experience of binaural I do remember the one and 
only convincing binaural playback I've heard made in a demo at OUTRS using the 
original quad speakers either side of the audience. The only poor localisation 
was in front but height etc. very convincing. I don't remember the mic 
configuration though. Could this good result be because the soundfield is 
stable and head movements are used as would be the case for head-tracked 
headphones? But then why front localisation still poor? Be interested to know 
what people think.
Martin


  From: Richard Lee 
 To: "'sursound@music.vt.edu'"  
 Sent: Tuesday, 14 June 2016, 12:35
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR project
   
> The main mechanisms for disambiguating 'cones of confusion' (and this 
includes front-back reversals) are: pinnae effects (Batteau) and 
head-movements (Wallach) - so, without either of these mechanisms at play, 
one would expect directional ambiguity.

You can test the relative importance of these for YOURSELF with the famous 
Malham / Van-Gogh Experiment

http://www.ambisonia.com/Members/ricardo/PermAmbi.htm/#VanGogh.

I still have some Diamond encrusted caps with optional Golden Pinnae but 
you need to pay in used bank notes.  No Confederate money please.

Michael came up with his rE & rV theories ... not by considering how to 
best replicate HRTFs bla bla .. but by asking ... "what information could 
the Mk1 Human Head (+ torso + processing inside + bla bla) possibly have 
available to determine localisation?"

If youi perform the above experiment, you'll find the Moving Head  cues are 
FAR more important than the Fixed Head cues (HRTFs bla bla).

Where the HRTFs have the most significance is in the vertical plane.  It's 
the different frequency response as a source moves off the horizontal plane 
that allows the Mk1 HH to process 'height'.  But even then, Moving Head 
cues are far more unambiguous .. and don't require a priori knowledge of 
the source.

If the HRTF cues break down completely (eg simulating a pair of coincident 
back to back cardioids as the crudest possible binaural decode), simulating 
the Moving Head cues (head tracking) lets the Mk1 HH decode all this 
without any problem, fuss or discomfort.

> I would like a little more information on ?head movements?.  I suspect 
all head movements are being treated as equal, and I have a theory that 
short rapid movements (like shaking the head) should be treated separately 
from movements that include the shoulders, or even the whole body. Short 
rapid movements of the eyeball have been studied and are well understood; 
without these small movements the visual field collapses completely. Does 
something similar happen for the aural field ?

One of the more surprising things that Michael worked out is that the 
Moving Head localisation models gave the "same answers" regardless of 
whether they assumed you turned your whole body to face the source (eg 
Makita) .. or those that only allowed small involuntary head movements (eg 
Clark, Dutton & Vanderlyn IIRC)

It's all there in his "General Metatheory  " if you are prepared to 
study it and follow up the references.  See especially the 'stereo' 
appendix.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6827

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Martin Richards]

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Oct 2015, at 18:31, Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> 
> Maybe out of your budget - but check out the Genelec 8351 a - they also
> have a room correction system that will work on arrays of up to 32 speakers.
> For those that do not have gear acquisition syndrome here is some
> ridiculous holywood styled marketing :
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokCwTKjz0E
> 
> For those with G.A.S. - no. Don't click the link.
> 
> On 14 October 2015 at 18:20, Charles Veasey 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> We're upgrading our current 15.2 (Behringer) loudspeaker array. I'd like to
>> get more spatial resolution and higher quality speakers. Right now I'm
>> thinking about (32) Genelec 8010 and (2) Genelec 7050B subs.
>> 
>> However, I have some concerns about the Genelec 8010s selling at only $350.
>> 
>> Does anyone have experience with these speakers, or have advice for my
>> situation?
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Charles
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> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] SoundField rental in Spain

[Martin Richards]

 Thanks Rafael,I decided to go for the mod as it is reasonably prices and I 
agree that it's good to lower the noise floor as much as possible especially as 
I use on high gain and record chamber music. Will let you know if I notice a 
difference though so far I've been delighted wth the results as have the 
artists recorded (all non-commercial for professional musician friends as a 
hobby for me). I mix to FO8 but also plan to try some binaural processing 
soon.Regards,Martin
  

 From: Rafael Hidalgo rafa.palm...@gmail.com
 To: sursound@music.vt.edu 
 Sent: Friday, 26 June 2015, 10:37
 Subject: [Sursound] SoundField rental in Spain
   
Hi Martin.
I have not a reference from myself to compare the difference, because I bought 
the recorder directly from BusmanAudio with the 6 preamps moded. 

Before, I was looking in internet for a reference of the improvement of a moded 
one, and some people in gearslutz wrote is a litle bit quiet in hi gain, and 
some goldenears found the differences. 

A known floor noise of the dr-680 in high gain is from the phantom power, and 
the Busman mod changes some components on the preamps, like some condensers and 
the opamps, and those condensers could be the solution on that kind of noise, 
but not all.

Because the Tetramic have a known noise floor highest than others mics like a 
SF ST350, I thought: less noise always is better, then I decided for this 
option.

Also I choosed this way because when I bought it the price in Europe was higher 
than now, 1000€, and similar to the moded unit, but without moded.

I dont tried to power the tetramic from the PPAs, may be go less floor noise on 
the recordings.

There are a lot of literature about the Busman mods, but not too much to 
compared files. You can check for yourself in a recent treaht on gearslutz, 
there are some files with and without modded ins: 
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/980920-busman-dr-680-mod.html

Rafa.
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Re: [Sursound] SoundField rental in Spain

[Martin Richards]

Dear Rafael,I have the same set-up with Coresound and Tascam and am curious 
about the Busman Mod - what improvement do you notice and do you consider it 
worthwhile. I'm UK based so less convenient to ship for a mod.Best Regards,
Martin Richards

  From: Rafael Hidalgo rafa.palm...@gmail.com
 To: sursound@music.vt.edu 
 Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015, 23:59
 Subject: [Sursound] SoundField rental in Spain
   


Hi Daniel, I seen you are looking for rent a SoundField mic in Spain, I have 
not one, but I have a Core Sound Tetramic and a Tascam DR-680 Busman Audio 
moded, may be you are interested in it if you dont have any other option. I'm 
close to Bilbao, not so far from Gijon.

Rafael Hidalgo

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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonics and Binaural in Reaper

[Martin Richards]

Many thanks - look forward to trying at the weekend. Martin

Sent from my iPhone

 On 27 May 2015, at 21:49, James Anthony Enda Bates bate...@tcd.ie wrote:
 
 Hi Jake/Martin, here are those videos I mentioned.
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ5sdldXo-Y
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cDAVFWMiEw
 
 They're somewhat rough and ready, but they should give you the basic idea
 of  how to setup ambisonics encoding and decoding to binaural in Reaper.
 The AmbiX suite have a number of really useful plugins (thanks Matthias!)
 including a binaural decoder. There's also a very handy converter plugin to
 shift between different formulations of ambisonics (Furse-Malham, SN3, etc)
 and the video shows how you can use this to mix and match different
 encoders and decoders (the Wigware and Ambi-X plugins are used in the
 video).
 
 So, if you have a piece encoded using the WigWare plugins, you don't need
 to replace all of the encoders with the AmbiX plugins (or do some math!) in
 order to use the AmbiX decoder.
 
 The second video shows how to decode a soundfield mic recording
 specifically, and if I get a chance, I'll try to put together some template
 Reaper projects too.
 All the best,
 Enda
 
 - www.endabates.net
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Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz

[Martin Richards]

I make a limited number of live recordings of concerts as a hobby and have some 
recent ambisonic recordings made with the coresound/Tascam DR680 combo of 
classical (baroque) chamber music (by professional performers). I'd like to 
make a binaural version available to the players in addition to the stereo 
version. Is there a freeware version out there for windows (don't have mac)? I 
may be able to make some of the recording available to ambisonic.xyz and will 
look into this depending on their willingness.Thanks,Martin Richards
 

 From: Bo-Erik Sandholm bo-erik.sandh...@ericsson.com
 To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu 
 Sent: Monday, 25 May 2015, 8:54
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz
   
http://elevr.com/audio-for-vr-film/
They seems to have made progress during the latest months, I had not read the 
site for a while, so please do read the website, it looks like a good 
opportunity if we can assist them.
Some of us have the knowledge, can we assist them in a open source way?

Best Regards
Bo-Erik

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bo-Erik 
Sandholm
Sent: den 25 maj 2015 09:00
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz

Hi Marc

How hard is it for you to take it one step further? 

That is to have a full screen 360 degrees panorama picture instead of the 
rotating head?

Then follow this up by these additions:
Control the view direction using a 3D directional headtracker bvia a Javascript 
that is receving the direction information via either:
    - This solution implemented by Mathias 
http://www.matthiaskronlachner.com/?p=2091 using OSC messages
    - Or the same sensor Hardware with addition of Bluetooth and other 
transmission protocol used by Hector Centeno 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOsfo8or_0E

Then you can give me a low cost VR experience if I hang an IPad in front of my 
eyes on a stupid looking holder :-)

The next step is to add full support for height in ambisonics and Spherical 
panoramas like google street view,  maybe you can duplicate the control signals 
and couple the view control of a google street view with a background ambisonic 
soundtrack from another website?

Us ambisonics guys could record a few environmental could tracks for a few  
locations, 
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@59.329495,18.072078,145.92h,3.88p,1z I can 
provid a recording for this location if wanted :-)

 - and the ultimate version is of course Stereoscopic video ,
Ideas around this can be seen here  http://elevr.com/audio-for-vr-film/ and 
they have even heard of ambisonics but have only fixed stereo so far but 3D 
surround video

Best Regards
Bo-Erik Sandholm






-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Marc Lavallée
Sent: den 23 maj 2015 13:44
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz

Hello sursounders.

Please visit http://ambisonic.xyz/
using the Chrome browser on your desktop or laptop.

I made this demo in the form of a poster; it was presented yesterday at 
http://ix.sat.qc.ca/

--
Marc

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Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz

[Martin Richards]

Hi Marc,Thanks for your reply. I suppose I misunderstand what this is all 
about. I'm looking for a way of converting B format to binaural either via the 
web or a program and since so far as I know Harpex is the only suitable program 
but for my limited use I'm reluctant to buy...Are you making a tool available 
to convert B to binaural as shown in your demo?Thanks,Martin
  From: Marc Lavallée m...@hacklava.net
 To: sursound@music.vt.edu 
 Sent: Monday, 25 May 2015, 12:17
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz
   
On Mon, 25 May 2015 08:43:25 + (UTC), Martin Richards wrote:
 I make a limited number of live recordings of concerts as a hobby and
 have some recent ambisonic recordings made with the coresound/Tascam
 DR680 combo of classical (baroque) chamber music (by professional
 performers). I'd like to make a binaural version available to the
 players in addition to the stereo version. Is there a freeware
 version out there for windows (don't have mac)? I may be able to make
 some of the recording available to ambisonic.xyz and will look into
 this depending on their willingness.Thanks,Martin Richards 

Hi Martin.

What software are you referring to?

As for for the ambisonic.xyz player, I made it as an companion for a
future version of ambisonia.com (which is too old to me maintained in
its actual form); I was in the process of migrating ambisonia.com to a
static version (as an intermediate version), when I realize how a web
player could be done. So, the real project is ambisonia.com with a
player...

--
Marc


      From: Bo-Erik Sandholm bo-erik.sandh...@ericsson.com
  To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, 25 May 2015, 8:54
  Subject: Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz
    
 http://elevr.com/audio-for-vr-film/
 They seems to have made progress during the latest months, I had not
 read the site for a while, so please do read the website, it looks
 like a good opportunity if we can assist them. Some of us have the
 knowledge, can we assist them in a open source way?
 
 Best Regards
 Bo-Erik
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
 Bo-Erik Sandholm Sent: den 25 maj 2015 09:00
 To: Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz
 
 Hi Marc
 
 How hard is it for you to take it one step further? 
 
 That is to have a full screen 360 degrees panorama picture instead of
 the rotating head?
 
 Then follow this up by these additions:
 Control the view direction using a 3D directional headtracker bvia a
 Javascript that is receving the direction information via either:
     - This solution implemented by Mathias
 http://www.matthiaskronlachner.com/?p=2091 using OSC messages
     - Or the same sensor Hardware with addition of Bluetooth and
 other transmission protocol used by Hector Centeno
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOsfo8or_0E
 
 Then you can give me a low cost VR experience if I hang an IPad in
 front of my eyes on a stupid looking holder :-)
 
 The next step is to add full support for height in ambisonics and
 Spherical panoramas like google street view,  maybe you can duplicate
 the control signals and couple the view control of a google street
 view with a background ambisonic soundtrack from another website?
 
 Us ambisonics guys could record a few environmental could tracks for
 a few  locations,
 https://www.instantstreetview.com/@59.329495,18.072078,145.92h,3.88p,1z
 I can provid a recording for this location if wanted :-)
 
  - and the ultimate version is of course Stereoscopic video ,
 Ideas around this can be seen here
 http://elevr.com/audio-for-vr-film/ and they have even heard of
 ambisonics but have only fixed stereo so far but 3D surround video
 
 Best Regards
 Bo-Erik Sandholm
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
 Marc Lavallée Sent: den 23 maj 2015 13:44
 To: Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: [Sursound] ambisonic.xyz
 
 Hello sursounders.
 
 Please visit http://ambisonic.xyz/
 using the Chrome browser on your desktop or laptop.
 
 I made this demo in the form of a poster; it was presented yesterday
 at http://ix.sat.qc.ca/
 
 --
 Marc
 
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 Sursound mailing list
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 here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
 
 
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Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA

[Martin Richards]

 From: Richard Lee rica...@justnet.com.au
To: 'Surround Sound discussion group' sursound@music.vt.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 19:51
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
 
 Unless things have changed a lot, last I checked lossy compression messes up 
 phase relationships, and that would be an issue for things like UHJ, which as 
 long as portable stereo players with limited battery life (and thus limited 
 CPUs), is the only viable, because stereo compatible, distribution format.

 At this point in time, not only is most music listened on mobile devices, 
 most music is even purchased on mobile devices, and that's strictly a stereo 
 (or maybe binaural) world.

Try this simple experiment.  Take your favourite Nimbus UHJ CD and rip it using 
the most evil MP3 encoder you can find .. probably the one built into the 
latest Windoz Media Player.

Do this at 256kB/s and also (shock!  horror!) at 128kB/s.  Now listen to the 
resultant files on a mobile device.  Then you can pontificate to us on how the 
musicality has all escaped and no one is going to find these acceptable.

You can also rip to a WAV file if your mobile device will play these and 
compare the MP3s with the 'original'.

This is just testing Ronald's assertion about compressed UHJ on stereo mobile 
devices.  I dunno about full UHJ surround decode cos there don't seem to be any 
good ones in the public domain.

PS    I expect you to hear ve.eery slight differenes with one MP3 and probably 
none with the other.  I won't insist on Double Blind bla bla but you might find 
that educational.
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