Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Richard Furse]

Happy New Year!


An update on this:

We *did* switch from FuMa to SN3D at the end of last year and have renamed
the TOA plugins so they are now the "O3A" plugins. The renaming is mainly to
help with migration from existing projects.

This turned into quite a major release in the end ("Version Two") and we're
just tying up the loose ends now. We took the opportunity to update all the
GUIs (no more wood panels!) and have added a whole new toolkit ("O3A View")
for work with film, particularly 360 video for Virtual Reality. There are
some (confusing) screenshots here:
http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/view-screenshots-2017 

Best wishes,

--Richard


> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Richard Furse
> Sent: 10 August 2016 11:54
> To: 'Surround Sound discussion group' 
> Subject: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?
> 
> Hi there!
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from
> FuMa
> to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-
> sn3d.
> Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
> 
> 
> 
> Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
> another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
> respond using the email link on the page?
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> --Richard
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Michael Chapman]

> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 10:46:02AM +0100, Richard Furse wrote:
>
>> What I'm really hoping doesn't happen is that we change convention
>> and then some amazing new toy emerges using something different...
>
> Consider it the other way round: _your_ amazing toys will have
> their influence on others.
>

A bit tardy ... but, ah well,it's been August.

Unless I've got my matchstcks line up wrong ... on the back of my envelope:

then WXY (it would be unfair to call it Fuma, or to deny it is FuMa) is N2D
as
are WXYUV
and
WXYUVPQ.

Whether that means periphonic should be N3D ... or SN3D ... is another
matter.

Michael




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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Dave Malham]

Agreed on all counts.

   Dave

On 11 August 2016 at 20:17, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:46:30PM +0100, Dave Malham wrote:
>
> > Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)
>
> Agree with that. But having done that sort of mental exercise more
> than once, IMHO the only good reason to inflict it on others is to
> show that it's not very productive. BTW, the exercise was 3rd order
> X-axis rotation. Of course, having a way to compute the N3D solution,
> all it takes is to multiply the matrix left and right with the gain
> factors and permutations. But there are lots of ways to get that
> wrong.
>
> OTOH, the conversion between N3D and SN3D that Richard worries about
> is simple enough, it's just one easily computed gain factor per degree.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 10:46:02AM +0100, Richard Furse wrote:

> What I'm really hoping doesn't happen is that we change convention
> and then some amazing new toy emerges using something different...

Consider it the other way round: _your_ amazing toys will have
their influence on others. 

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:46:30PM +0100, Dave Malham wrote:

> Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)

Agree with that. But having done that sort of mental exercise more
than once, IMHO the only good reason to inflict it on others is to
show that it's not very productive. BTW, the exercise was 3rd order
X-axis rotation. Of course, having a way to compute the N3D solution,
all it takes is to multiply the matrix left and right with the gain
factors and permutations. But there are lots of ways to get that
wrong. 

OTOH, the conversion between N3D and SN3D that Richard worries about
is simple enough, it's just one easily computed gain factor per degree.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Richard Furse]

I was about to say that this is the sort of thing you get right once and
then never need to touch, but actually I did see a plugin out in the wild
recently with the conversion wrong!

On SN3D, my main worries are (a) losing compatibility with existing
material/projects/kit and (b) it's SN3D, not N3D (which we HAD been
considering and is used in MPEG-H). BUT - those are definitely very
manageable issues and well worth it if there's a strong enough consensus
that modern tools are all heading that way! What I'm really hoping doesn't
happen is that we change convention and then some amazing new toy emerges
using something different...

Thanks,

--Richard


> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Dave Malham
> Sent: 10 August 2016 22:47
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?
> 
> Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)
> 
> Well, that said, (and this maybe a shock to those that know me) I'm
> gradually moving towards the view that FuMa may have had its day. The only
> remaining reason really is compatibility with with earlier materiel and
> Soundfield mics and that can be dealt with conversion code, so long as
> everything is properly documented.
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 10 August 2016 at 22:27, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 11:53:33AM +0100, Richard Furse wrote:
> >
> > > Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from
> > FuMa
> > > to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.
> > com/story/consultation-sn3d.
> > > Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
> >
> > Just do it.
> >
> > During the past months I've been explaining Ambisonics to some
> > people who are going to work on HOA based applications. All of
> > them are something like 20 years younger than FOA, and when they
> > think about Ambisonics theory that means arbitrary order. To them,
> > using anything but N3D, SN3D and ACN seems like a form of masochism.
> > Maybe because I made them work out X-axis rotation with FuMa in and
> > out as an exercise. None of them got it right.
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > --
> > FA
> >
> > A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> > It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> > and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> 
> These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
> 
> Dave Malham
> Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
> The University of York
> York YO10 5DD
> UK
> 
> 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Steven Boardman]

+1 from me too. 

One standard makes it easier for everyone, Less confusing and less time 
consuming.
How many conversions does one has to do, just to use different plugins in the 
same chain?
I’ve been caught out a few times when checking rigs, only to realise the 
content has a different channel order…
Obviously legacy recordings are FuMa, but it will be easier to deal with them, 
by saying, “If it’s old, convert to SN3D-ACN…”

Steve



On 11 Aug 2016, at 08:53, Politis Archontis  wrote:

> +1 for (S)N3D / ACN. To us newbies, as Fons mentioned :-), FuMa makes sense 
> only for 1st-order, and then it is trivial to convert to the above if needed.
> 
> Best,
> Archontis
> 
> On Aug 10, 2016, at 1:53 PM, Richard Furse  wrote:
> 
>> Hi there!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
>> to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
>> Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
>> another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
>> respond using the email link on the page?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Many thanks,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --Richard
>> 
>> -- next part --
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>> ___
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>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
>> account or options, view archives and so on.
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Politis Archontis]

+1 for (S)N3D / ACN. To us newbies, as Fons mentioned :-), FuMa makes sense 
only for 1st-order, and then it is trivial to convert to the above if needed.

Best,
Archontis

On Aug 10, 2016, at 1:53 PM, Richard Furse  wrote:

> Hi there!
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
> to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
> Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
> 
> 
> 
> Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
> another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
> respond using the email link on the page?
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> --Richard
> 
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> account or options, view archives and so on.

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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Dave Malham]

Awww, come on, a bit of mental exercise is good for the soul! :-) :-)

Well, that said, (and this maybe a shock to those that know me) I'm
gradually moving towards the view that FuMa may have had its day. The only
remaining reason really is compatibility with with earlier materiel and
Soundfield mics and that can be dealt with conversion code, so long as
everything is properly documented.

Dave

On 10 August 2016 at 22:27, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 11:53:33AM +0100, Richard Furse wrote:
>
> > Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from
> FuMa
> > to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.
> com/story/consultation-sn3d.
> > Does anyone have strong feelings on this?
>
> Just do it.
>
> During the past months I've been explaining Ambisonics to some
> people who are going to work on HOA based applications. All of
> them are something like 20 years younger than FOA, and when they
> think about Ambisonics theory that means arbitrary order. To them,
> using anything but N3D, SN3D and ACN seems like a form of masochism.
> Maybe because I made them work out X-axis rotation with FuMa in and
> out as an exercise. None of them got it right.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 11:53:33AM +0100, Richard Furse wrote:

> Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
> to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
> Does anyone have strong feelings on this?

Just do it. 

During the past months I've been explaining Ambisonics to some
people who are going to work on HOA based applications. All of
them are something like 20 years younger than FOA, and when they
think about Ambisonics theory that means arbitrary order. To them,
using anything but N3D, SN3D and ACN seems like a form of masochism.
Maybe because I made them work out X-axis rotation with FuMa in and
out as an exercise. None of them got it right.

Ciao, 

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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[Sursound] Blue Ripple Sound & SN3D?

[Richard Furse]

Hi there!

 

Blue Ripple Sound are wondering about changing their TOA plugins from FuMa
to SN3D (ACN), see http://www.blueripplesound.com/story/consultation-sn3d.
Does anyone have strong feelings on this?

 

Opinions, rants and raves appreciated, but I'd like to avoid kicking off
another format debate on this list - perhaps any interested folk could
respond using the email link on the page?

 

Many thanks,

 

--Richard

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