Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)
Hi Steve, Good suggestions. My NS10s have given up the ghost - I had them since 1998. I also loved them and couldn't see why everyone was always moaning about them. Im a Genelec guy too now - I love the GLM calibration. I have an old pair of Kefs too which sound lovely - anyway I digress - cheers! On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 12:40, Steven Boardman wrote: > If you have a set of HD600 (which as everyone says are great), you could > convolve your pinnae and the headphones together, producing an IR that can > flatten out both. > This will mean you can use your own SOFA HRTF file, with no added effect > from headphones, or the doubling of your pinnae. Effectively flat response > at the ear canal. (eq’ing for the ear canal is another point of interest). > You can then use your favourite NS10 IR for that authentic 80-90’s mixing > reference, or any other speaker, studio or room. > Personally I always prefer to mix on speakers and test on headphones, no > matter what the delivery is. > This has always produced the most robust mix for me, that translates best > across all delivery platforms. > > Incidentally I mixed solely on NS10’s all the way up to 2009, at which > point I had 8 in a cube. > I was that in love with mixing on them, that I mixed ambisonics with them > too. > Although as you might guess, they aren’t very good for ambisonics because > of the off centre tweeters. > These days i’m purely Genelec for HOA, but I still test on every set of > headphones, laptops phones, cars, and NS10’s I can find:) > > Best > > Steve > > > > On 25 Jun 2020, at 10:34, Augustine Leudar > wrote: > > > > That's nice to hear seeing as that is what I am using and they are very > > accurate measuring very flat and fast spectral decay at all frequencies > > more neutral than the HD650 or HD800. They are certainly my first choice > of > > headphones for mixing normal audio. However I guess the requirements > of > > binaural may be slightly different to normal stereo mixing and certainly > > hifi listening. At least that's what I'm trying to assess at the moment. > So > > for mixing stereo you might choose Ns10m ((definately not flat) Genelec, > > Atc whatever for mixing but for mastering you would choose Bowers and > > Wilkins, Dunlavy, larger speakers generally. The applications for mixing > > and mastering being slightly different. So I wonder if it's the same for > > headphones. A listening test which assessed subject localisation in 3d > > space comparing the same audio over various headphones would seem to be > the > > best way to resolve this. A large enough sample size should override the > > differences between individual HRTFs. What you say about diffusivity is > > interesting though I don't know how you could test for that. > > > > > > On Thursday, 25 June 2020, Gernot von Schultzendorff < > > g.schultzendo...@saalakustik.de> wrote: > > > >> The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common > >> perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how > >> well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my > >> point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to > >> reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity > >> recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences > the > >> overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual > >> phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert > halls a > >> very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local > >> diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply > >> defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good > concert > >> halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity > >> field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place > during > >> the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t > >> he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further > >> ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences. > >> > >> Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured > seems > >> to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and, > as > >> far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field. > >> > >> Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound > >> aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the > >> listener even within the highly limited context of the stereo format. > These > >> recordings are mixed over loudspeakers, but with the occasional use of > >> headphones I always choose the Sennheiser HD600. Also and especially > with > >> binaural mixes (HOA 3rd order) I haven't listened to any better suited > >> headphones so far. Without wanting to judge what the technical > background > >> for this is, the described "holistic" spatial reproduction of these > >> headphones has been extreme
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)
If you have a set of HD600 (which as everyone says are great), you could convolve your pinnae and the headphones together, producing an IR that can flatten out both. This will mean you can use your own SOFA HRTF file, with no added effect from headphones, or the doubling of your pinnae. Effectively flat response at the ear canal. (eq’ing for the ear canal is another point of interest). You can then use your favourite NS10 IR for that authentic 80-90’s mixing reference, or any other speaker, studio or room. Personally I always prefer to mix on speakers and test on headphones, no matter what the delivery is. This has always produced the most robust mix for me, that translates best across all delivery platforms. Incidentally I mixed solely on NS10’s all the way up to 2009, at which point I had 8 in a cube. I was that in love with mixing on them, that I mixed ambisonics with them too. Although as you might guess, they aren’t very good for ambisonics because of the off centre tweeters. These days i’m purely Genelec for HOA, but I still test on every set of headphones, laptops phones, cars, and NS10’s I can find:) Best Steve > On 25 Jun 2020, at 10:34, Augustine Leudar wrote: > > That's nice to hear seeing as that is what I am using and they are very > accurate measuring very flat and fast spectral decay at all frequencies > more neutral than the HD650 or HD800. They are certainly my first choice of > headphones for mixing normal audio. However I guess the requirements of > binaural may be slightly different to normal stereo mixing and certainly > hifi listening. At least that's what I'm trying to assess at the moment. So > for mixing stereo you might choose Ns10m ((definately not flat) Genelec, > Atc whatever for mixing but for mastering you would choose Bowers and > Wilkins, Dunlavy, larger speakers generally. The applications for mixing > and mastering being slightly different. So I wonder if it's the same for > headphones. A listening test which assessed subject localisation in 3d > space comparing the same audio over various headphones would seem to be the > best way to resolve this. A large enough sample size should override the > differences between individual HRTFs. What you say about diffusivity is > interesting though I don't know how you could test for that. > > > On Thursday, 25 June 2020, Gernot von Schultzendorff < > g.schultzendo...@saalakustik.de> wrote: > >> The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common >> perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how >> well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my >> point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to >> reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity >> recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences the >> overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual >> phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert halls a >> very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local >> diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply >> defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good concert >> halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity >> field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place during >> the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t >> he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further >> ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences. >> >> Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured seems >> to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and, as >> far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field. >> >> Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound >> aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the >> listener even within the highly limited context of the stereo format. These >> recordings are mixed over loudspeakers, but with the occasional use of >> headphones I always choose the Sennheiser HD600. Also and especially with >> binaural mixes (HOA 3rd order) I haven't listened to any better suited >> headphones so far. Without wanting to judge what the technical background >> for this is, the described "holistic" spatial reproduction of these >> headphones has been extremely successful. It is the main reason why it >> seems to be the most common tool used by audio professionals involved in >> binaural mixing (it was also used, besides the entries here in the forum, >> for the binaural remixes of old Kraftwerk recordings). >> >> Best >> Gernot >> >> >>> Am 24.06.2020 um 18:00 schrieb sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu: >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:48:53 +0200 (CEST) >>> From: Brian KATZ >>> To: sursound@music.vt.edu >>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)
Good loudspeakers for stereo do not have the same response curve as a monospeaker, as the sum of the 2 stereo speakers need to produce the stereo image that should have a linear psycho acoustic frequency response. Den tor 25 juni 2020 11:34Augustine Leudar skrev: > That's nice to hear seeing as that is what I am using and they are very > accurate measuring very flat and fast spectral decay at all frequencies > more neutral than the HD650 or HD800. They are certainly my first choice of > headphones for mixing normal audio. However I guess the requirements of > binaural may be slightly different to normal stereo mixing and certainly > hifi listening. At least that's what I'm trying to assess at the moment. So > for mixing stereo you might choose Ns10m ((definately not flat) Genelec, > Atc whatever for mixing but for mastering you would choose Bowers and > Wilkins, Dunlavy, larger speakers generally. The applications for mixing > and mastering being slightly different. So I wonder if it's the same for > headphones. A listening test which assessed subject localisation in 3d > space comparing the same audio over various headphones would seem to be the > best way to resolve this. A large enough sample size should override the > differences between individual HRTFs. What you say about diffusivity is > interesting though I don't know how you could test for that. > > > On Thursday, 25 June 2020, Gernot von Schultzendorff < > g.schultzendo...@saalakustik.de> wrote: > > > The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common > > perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how > > well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my > > point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to > > reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity > > recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences > the > > overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual > > phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert > halls a > > very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local > > diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply > > defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good concert > > halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity > > field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place > during > > the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t > > he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further > > ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences. > > > > Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured > seems > > to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and, > as > > far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field. > > > > Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound > > aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the > > listener even within the highly limited context of the stereo format. > These > > recordings are mixed over loudspeakers, but with the occasional use of > > headphones I always choose the Sennheiser HD600. Also and especially with > > binaural mixes (HOA 3rd order) I haven't listened to any better suited > > headphones so far. Without wanting to judge what the technical background > > for this is, the described "holistic" spatial reproduction of these > > headphones has been extremely successful. It is the main reason why it > > seems to be the most common tool used by audio professionals involved in > > binaural mixing (it was also used, besides the entries here in the forum, > > for the binaural remixes of old Kraftwerk recordings). > > > > Best > > Gernot > > > > > > > Am 24.06.2020 um 18:00 schrieb sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu: > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:48:53 +0200 (CEST) > > > From: Brian KATZ > > > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural > > > compositions > > > Message-ID: > > > <969745703.37859639.1592992133215.JavaMail.zimbra@ > > sorbonne-universite.fr> > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > > "it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening > > tests which have > > > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are > > > there any ?" > > > > > > Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with: > > > > > > D. Sch?nstein, L. Ferr?, and B. Katz, ?Comparison of headphones and > > equalization for virtual auditory source localization,? in Acoustics?08. > 9e > > Congres Fran?ais d?Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n?5, > > (Paris), pp. 1?5, 2008, ( > http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/ > > cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf). > > > > > > -- > > > Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS >
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)
That's nice to hear seeing as that is what I am using and they are very accurate measuring very flat and fast spectral decay at all frequencies more neutral than the HD650 or HD800. They are certainly my first choice of headphones for mixing normal audio. However I guess the requirements of binaural may be slightly different to normal stereo mixing and certainly hifi listening. At least that's what I'm trying to assess at the moment. So for mixing stereo you might choose Ns10m ((definately not flat) Genelec, Atc whatever for mixing but for mastering you would choose Bowers and Wilkins, Dunlavy, larger speakers generally. The applications for mixing and mastering being slightly different. So I wonder if it's the same for headphones. A listening test which assessed subject localisation in 3d space comparing the same audio over various headphones would seem to be the best way to resolve this. A large enough sample size should override the differences between individual HRTFs. What you say about diffusivity is interesting though I don't know how you could test for that. On Thursday, 25 June 2020, Gernot von Schultzendorff < g.schultzendo...@saalakustik.de> wrote: > The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common > perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how > well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my > point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to > reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity > recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences the > overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual > phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert halls a > very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local > diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply > defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good concert > halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity > field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place during > the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t > he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further > ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences. > > Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured seems > to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and, as > far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field. > > Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound > aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the > listener even within the highly limited context of the stereo format. These > recordings are mixed over loudspeakers, but with the occasional use of > headphones I always choose the Sennheiser HD600. Also and especially with > binaural mixes (HOA 3rd order) I haven't listened to any better suited > headphones so far. Without wanting to judge what the technical background > for this is, the described "holistic" spatial reproduction of these > headphones has been extremely successful. It is the main reason why it > seems to be the most common tool used by audio professionals involved in > binaural mixing (it was also used, besides the entries here in the forum, > for the binaural remixes of old Kraftwerk recordings). > > Best > Gernot > > > > Am 24.06.2020 um 18:00 schrieb sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu: > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:48:53 +0200 (CEST) > > From: Brian KATZ > > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural > > compositions > > Message-ID: > > <969745703.37859639.1592992133215.JavaMail.zimbra@ > sorbonne-universite.fr> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > "it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening > tests which have > > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are > > there any ?" > > > > Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with: > > > > D. Sch?nstein, L. Ferr?, and B. Katz, ?Comparison of headphones and > equalization for virtual auditory source localization,? in Acoustics?08. 9e > Congres Fran?ais d?Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n?5, > (Paris), pp. 1?5, 2008, (http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/ > cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf). > > > > -- > > Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS > > Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique ? Musique > > Sorbonne Universit?, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond ?'Alembert > > http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com Business website: www
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)
The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences the overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert halls a very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good concert halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place during the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences. Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured seems to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and, as far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field. Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the listener even within the highly limited context of the stereo format. These recordings are mixed over loudspeakers, but with the occasional use of headphones I always choose the Sennheiser HD600. Also and especially with binaural mixes (HOA 3rd order) I haven't listened to any better suited headphones so far. Without wanting to judge what the technical background for this is, the described "holistic" spatial reproduction of these headphones has been extremely successful. It is the main reason why it seems to be the most common tool used by audio professionals involved in binaural mixing (it was also used, besides the entries here in the forum, for the binaural remixes of old Kraftwerk recordings). Best Gernot > Am 24.06.2020 um 18:00 schrieb sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu: > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:48:53 +0200 (CEST) > From: Brian KATZ > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural > compositions > Message-ID: > > <969745703.37859639.1592992133215.javamail.zim...@sorbonne-universite.fr> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > "it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests > which have > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are > there any ?" > > Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with: > > D. Sch?nstein, L. Ferr?, and B. Katz, ?Comparison of headphones and > equalization for virtual auditory source localization,? in Acoustics?08. 9e > Congres Fran?ais d?Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n?5, > (Paris), pp. 1?5, 2008, > (http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf). > > -- > Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS > Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique ? Musique > Sorbonne Universit?, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond ?'Alembert > http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
