Re: [biofuels-biz] what is the best source of raw material for producing biodiesel...
we have found that different oils have different proportions of glycerol. We found that palm oil produces about 20%, rapeseed 10%, and animal oil 5%. Also there are figures available for the chain lenghts of different oils, which may affect the viscosity of the resulting diesel.. paddy - Original Message - From: Jan Surwka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 12:11 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] what is the best source of raw material for producing biodiesel... Hi to all, I have an economic problem: Observing the prices of different oils on Agro Exchange (e.g in Rotterdam) I found that different oils have different prices: For example: Rapeseed oil: cost 430 Euro/tonne Coconut oil: 230 Euro/tonne Soyebean oil: 355 Euro/tonne Which means that the best source for biodiesel should be the cheapest oil. It is really the case ? What are differences (if any) of biodiesels produced from different oils ??? Can anyone from the group attempt to address this issue , please ? jan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] what is the best source of raw material for producingbiodiesel...
I'm not the expert but, from my limited experience and readings, it appears that the conversion of different oils into biodiesel is similar in percentage return and performance. I say similar because there certainly are variations but I doubt they amount to more than 20%. Iwould go with the cheapest and least complicated. Anybodydisagree? Mike -Original Message-From: Jan Surwka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 1:12 PMTo: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.comCc: biofuel@yahoogroups.comSubject: [biofuels-biz] what is the best source of raw material for producingbiodiesel...Hi to all,I have an economic problem:Observing the prices of different oils on Agro Exchange (e.g in Rotterdam) I found thatdifferent oils have different prices:For example: Rapeseed oil: cost 430 Euro/tonneCoconut oil: 230 Euro/tonneSoyebean oil: 355 Euro/tonneWhich means that the best source for biodiesel should be the cheapest oil.It is really the case ? What are differences (if any) of biodiesels produced from different oils ???Can anyone from the group attempt to address this issue , please ?jan[EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Foreverhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuel at WebConXhttp://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htmTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [biofuel] Ethanol vs. Methanol
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: RE: [biofuel] Ethanol vs. Methanol Here where? Joe Funny, I've priced 200% ethanol here at around $.80 liter. What gives? I better double check my sources. Mike -Original Message- From: Ken Provost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 6:23 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Ethanol vs. Methanol Really, though, now that we know that ethanol is available why are we bothering with methanol? I find myself learning with methanol and then having to switch to ethanol for environmental advantage. Mike B Cost, cost, cost. I pay $3.00 a gallon for methanol in small quantities, others are paying much less. I can't even make my own anhydrous ethanol for less than $10 a gallon, and buying it from a commercial producer puts you over $50 a gallon with all the tax. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing BD
What is wrong with a cheap aquarium bubbler and stone? Keep it simple - unless you want to have more fun Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Residual oil in BD.
I had significant foaming problems with the bubble wash in both cases. How much unprocessed oil are other experimenters finding in the final product and how much is too much? Regards from Harry .. If you have any residual oil in the ester, you will have mono and di-glycerides as well. These two components are superior emulsifiers. (Read the back of almost any semi-liquid food product such as mayonaise.) This will become evident as you perform your wash stages. If the volume of incomplete reaction is even 1 or 2% mono and di-glycerides, you can end up with a white mayonaise that takes forever to seperate and in some instances never will completely. This emulsified layer contains soap, biodiesel, the mono and di-glycerides and any unreacted oil that may remain. We're working on a simple process for correcting such an error when made. But there are only so many hours in the day. Best way to keep it from occuring is to ensure yourself enough mixing time. The larger the container, the greater the time needed. 24 hours is not unheard of. Mind you, this need for increased agitation is why people continue to state that the reaction phase should have much splashing. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Crash Burn was Re: [biofuel] economy of scale Re: Digest # 491 + ethanol pricing.
Can we call it slash and burn when they use D9's? Crash and burn would be more appropriate. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite According to companies who are listed on the web, zeolite 3A will absorb 30 to 40% of its weight in water. I have read that 3A stands for 3 angstrums(spelling) and as I understand water molecues are bigger than that, it also will allow ethanol to pass right through but trapping the water. But, how much zeolite do you need to filter a gallon of ethanol to make it anhydrous. I don't know. Maybe one of our chemistry majors can help us with that. Anyone? Regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite Angstroms. How much Zeolite you need depends on how much water is in the EtOH. A liter of 95% EtOH will have about 50g of H2O in it, so about 150 grams of Zeolite will adsorb that water before needing to be regenerated. Joe __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol Denatured means adding methanol to ethanol (10% I think) thus rendering it undrinkable. I don't know if it is anhydrous. But if not sealed tightly it becomes hydrous quickly (EtOH being very hygroscopic as is Sodium Hydroxide).Denatured alcohol would be okay to use because it is both kinds of alcohol, but you will have to account for the less EtOH in the mixture when using the ethyl esther formula. It will produce both methyl and ethyl esthers. Joe denatured. is that 200 proof, and does the denaturing agent affect biodiesel production? Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 2:22 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really, though, now that we know that ethanol is available why are we bothering with methanol? I find myself learning with methanol and then having to switch to ethanol for environmental advantage. Mike B Cost, cost, cost. I pay $3.00 a gallon for methanol in small quantities, others are paying much less. I can't even make my own anhydrous ethanol for less than $10 a gallon, and buying it from a commercial producer puts you over $50 a gallon with all the tax. -K That's odd. Where do you live? I can buy denatured ethanol at my local hardware store for about $7 a gallon (?) I think (I'm trying to remember the exact price). There is no liquor tax on denatured ethanol, since you can't drink it. David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 OK. When I posted that the EtOH would act as an antifreeze and keep the water from freezing out of the solution I assumed we were talking high concentrations of alcohol and trying to make it anhydrous. Say good distillation gives you 190 proof ethanol (95%) freezing will not drop out the water. I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. for 30 minutes, then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than that, but I can if any one wants me to. So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe Harmon Seaver wrote: You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to distill their hard cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and you need at least 50% alky to anti-freeze a solution. Depends on how cold it gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any wine or beer. I got the idea from thinking about ice wine and hard cider that's made in the Okanagan Valley where I used to live. The fermentation process for fuel ethanol or biodiesel ethanol is no different than that for beer or wine, and since the yeast die off well before the alcohol percentage reaches the high 'teens, I thought that such an approach would create a more favorable energy balance for ethanol fuel production in cold climates. It would be an interesting thing to try. Perhaps someone might experiment with this approach and post the results. Further, it would eliminate the problems associated with licensing a distillation apparatus. (No, officer, it's NOT a still, it's a refrigerator. . .) If it works, I wonder how the energy balance of refrigeration would compare to conventional distillation. robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Ethanol vs. Methanol
Here in Cape Town. I double checked and 95% ethanol sells at $.60 liter and 99% methanol sells at a similar price. Still haven't reached the big suppliers yet, though. Mike Here where? Joe Funny, I've priced 200% ethanol here at around $.80 liter. What gives? I better double check my sources. Mike -Original Message- From: Ken Provost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 6:23 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Ethanol vs. Methanol Really, though, now that we know that ethanol is available why are we bothering with methanol? I find myself learning with methanol and then having to switch to ethanol for environmental advantage. Mike B Cost, cost, cost. I pay $3.00 a gallon for methanol in small quantities, others are paying much less. I can't even make my own anhydrous ethanol for less than $10 a gallon, and buying it from a commercial producer puts you over $50 a gallon with all the tax. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. for 30 minutes, then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than that, but I can if any one wants me to. So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe Thanks, Joe! Perhaps it might work as a means to reduce separation energy BEFORE distillation. I've read somewhere that some fuel injected engines can operate on a 50 / 50 mix of ethanol and water. A more pertinent question may be this: Is anyone actually distilling engine fuel and using it on a regular basis? It seems that regulatory hurdles and a rather poor energy balance mitigate against ethanol on a small scale. For those of use who do not drive diesels, this is unfortunate. robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol
I can buy denatured ethanol at my local hardware store for about $7 a gallon (?) I think (I'm trying to remember the exact price). There is no liquor tax on denatured ethanol, since you can't drink it. David Unfortunately, you typically can't make biodiesel with it, either. They used to denature ethanol with just methanol, and that would work fine. Nowadays in the US you need to add not only methanol, but also a bittering agent, usually isobutyl methyl ketone, and there's usually a lot of water in there as well. As you point out, denaturing and leaving water in it makes it a LOT cheaper, but I've never been able to make biodiesel with it, after several attempts. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] please remove me
remove me Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Residual oil in BD.
At best the reaction conditions we are using convert only a fraction of the WVO to ester. ( Configure the ammount of methanol into the equation for the reaction and you will see what I mean). The reaction involves equilibrium and as with a lot of organic chemistry reactions is not as straightforward as an inorganic reaction. So we can't just add more methanol and expect more ester. I don't really think this is true. Using 200ml methanol per liter of WVO is about a 60% molar excess (that is, 60% more methanol than is actually consumed in the transesterification). The excess helps to shift equilibrium in the desired direction, and I think we can expect something like 95% completion. When you start cheating on the methanol is when you start seeing more unconverted oil in the BD -- viscosity will be measurably higher as a result. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. for 30 minutes, then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than that, but I can if any one wants me to. So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe Thanks, Joe! Perhaps it might work as a means to reduce separation energy BEFORE distillation. I've read somewhere that some fuel injected engines can operate on a 50 / 50 mix of ethanol and water. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch3 - see ALCOHOL INJECTION You can make 100 proof with a simple pot still. A more pertinent question may be this: Is anyone actually distilling engine fuel and using it on a regular basis? They do, but they might not admit it. It seems that regulatory hurdles and a rather poor energy balance mitigate against ethanol on a small scale. For those of use who do not drive diesels, this is unfortunate. For diesel drivers too - ethyl esters is a most attractive option. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
I think I was told by my chem prof that many years ago annhydrous ethanol was taken the last 5 points by dropping metallic sodium into the container. Need to be careful re fire using this method. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:05 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. for 30 minutes, then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than that, but I can if any one wants me to. So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe Thanks, Joe! Perhaps it might work as a means to reduce separation energy BEFORE distillation. I've read somewhere that some fuel injected engines can operate on a 50 / 50 mix of ethanol and water. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch3 - see ALCOHOL INJECTION You can make 100 proof with a simple pot still. A more pertinent question may be this: Is anyone actually distilling engine fuel and using it on a regular basis? They do, but they might not admit it. It seems that regulatory hurdles and a rather poor energy balance mitigate against ethanol on a small scale. For those of use who do not drive diesels, this is unfortunate. For diesel drivers too - ethyl esters is a most attractive option. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
**Reply below** From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Cordian, Good thinking on the marine filters. However, these filters work becuase water in oil is an emulsion and thus easily separated with this kind of apparatus. Water and alcohol is a solution and cannot be separated with a physical process such as this. Like salt in water (a solution) you can't remove the salt from the water with a filter. Distillation of an adsorber such as Zeolite is the only way to do this. As for filtering WVO, it would get most of the water out of the oil, but there is always a little left in suspension even in seemingly clear oil. These filters would be good for getting the large food chunks out of the WVO, but I'm afraid they would plug up fairly quickly depending on how clean the oil is of course. What kind of oil pump are you using to pump the WVO from your source? Joe _ Joe, I'm aiming for a mass-production facility so I am going to need a rig that can collect alot of oil in a single run. I've come up with several designs for collection and prefiltering. One of the designs actually incorporates a device made for the express purpose of filtering out food particles. Click here and scroll down to oil filter product-- http://www.tisbee.com/broasted.html This one for portaility, provides suction and pumping.(PDF)-- http://www.gilesent.com/Gpdfs/Giles_GOC_Oil_Caddy.pdf These machines are designed for high-temp still hot oil and the hoses will not melt. There are variations on design, but you get the idea. My other options are to get some high temp. rubber hose and run the pump off a PTO on the truck. Problem being I will need to hook up a priming spray of veggie oil to keep the pump from running dry. Their are hundreds of pumps out there that will pump mud and small rocks through w/out blinking, so finding the right pump is really a matter of preference. My biggest sticklers are vacuum pressure and flow rate. I'm also thinking of a vacuum setup like used for liposuction, WVO is somewhat similar in viscosity and that setup is very effective. I should be building my rig within the next year or so. We'll see what over-complicated design I come up with. cheers, c. __ I'm reposting this question because I do not believe it was answered last time I posted or perhaps I missed the reply. But their are marine fuel filters that are designed to filter the fuel and remove the water from it as well. Their is a serperate resevoir on the bottom of the filter that holds the water and periodically must be dumped. I am fully aware of their operation and intended use, however has anyone used them to filter oil or ethanol to remove the water? The filters I have in mind are of the large marine diesel variety and I am in the process of designing a recovery and pre-filter WVO (waste vegetable oil) trailer and am wondering if this filter would be effective for my purposes. Any insight is appreciated. regards, cordain dulles,va _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite
Molar mass of CH3CH2OH = ~46g Molar mass of H20 = ~33g Assuming you have 100 pounds of ethanol at 90%, you have around 9 pounds of water in there. Eight pounds of water being 30% [conservative figure] means 100% of the zeolite would be 25 pounds. [This was done in my head and it's probably erroneous by at least 10%] Not bad if zeolite is what I think it is, it can be dryed/reused. How much does your zeolite cost? -Martin Klingensmith [high school student, chemistry final is next week :)] --- ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to companies who are listed on the web, zeolite 3A will absorb 30 to 40% of its weight in water. I have read that 3A stands for 3 angstrums(spelling) and as I understand water molecues are bigger than that, it also will allow ethanol to pass right through but trapping the water. But, how much zeolite do you need to filter a gallon of ethanol to make it anhydrous. I don't know. Maybe one of our chemistry majors can help us with that. Anyone? Regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite Use molecular sieves to absorb water from ethanol/methanol. That's what they're made for and they're reusable/nontoxic. --- Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have any idea how much zeolite cost? I don't have a clue. Thanks for writing. Ron Miller According to the web source Keith provided, it's about $10 per pound, but I was quoted that much for silica gel, so it might be more now. BTW, the same source says only 10% of its weight in absorbed water, not the 25% I mentioned. Sounds lowsilica gel is good up to 40% of its weight, but it's not very selective -- may absorb ethanol nearly as much as water. Does anyone know? -K __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Residual oil in BD.
OK What I intend is to attempt to : 1) Use bicarb soda to neutralise the acidic BD prior to titration. Hopefully this will give me a constant starting point PH wise. 2) Seperate about 5gms of both BD and Source oil (palm) by paper chromatography, ether extract fractions and weigh. Should give a standard oil residue to calibrate my titration. Where will the glycerol end up? I'll let you know!! 3) Boil off esters and weigh remainder. ( oil glycerol?) Bit of running around to do first, its 9.47 here I may get to it about 15.00. Thanks for the comments. Regards Harry. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At best the reaction conditions we are using convert only a fraction of the WVO to ester. ( Configure the ammount of methanol into the equation for the reaction and you will see what I mean). The reaction involves equilibrium and as with a lot of organic chemistry reactions is not as straightforward as an inorganic reaction. So we can't just add more methanol and expect more ester. I don't really think this is true. Using 200ml methanol per liter of WVO is about a 60% molar excess (that is, 60% more methanol than is actually consumed in the transesterification). The excess helps to shift equilibrium in the desired direction, and I think we can expect something like 95% completion. When you start cheating on the methanol is when you start seeing more unconverted oil in the BD -- viscosity will be measurably higher as a result. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite
Thanks for the info. Do you know the process used? Is it poured or distilled through zeolite Thanks, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite According to companies who are listed on the web, zeolite 3A will absorb 30 to 40% of its weight in water. I have read that 3A stands for 3 angstrums(spelling) and as I understand water molecues are bigger than that, it also will allow ethanol to pass right through but trapping the water. But, how much zeolite do you need to filter a gallon of ethanol to make it anhydrous. I don't know. Maybe one of our chemistry majors can help us with that. Anyone? Regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite Angstroms. How much Zeolite you need depends on how much water is in the EtOH. A liter of 95% EtOH will have about 50g of H2O in it, so about 150 grams of Zeolite will adsorb that water before needing to be regenerated. Joe __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Nissan to develop new cars
Hi Keith, Negative. Supposed to be arcives from the Straits Times, but it is only kept for seven days. THanks Gerry Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/07/2001 12:53:50 PM Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: LEE Gerry/Prin Engr/CSM/ST Group) Subject: Re: [biofuel] Nissan to develop new cars Singapore has gone into partnership with Diamler Chrysler on the fuel cell car concept. The infrastructure for H2 filling stations would be set up. It would be a few more years before everyone would be driving a fuel cell car. Though the pollution would be coming from the main H2 plant. That's is where all the carbon is coming from. Lost the link on the above article. Gerry Hi Gerry This one? http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=11011 Planet Ark Cars fouling Asian air but high-tech offers hope SINGAPORE: May 31, 2001 Lot of nonsense in that article, like Hong Kong is ahead of the game... Bangkok has the best air quality. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/06/2001 06:21:12 PM Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: LEE Gerry/Prin Engr/CSM/ST Group) Subject: Re: [biofuel] Nissan to develop new cars Fuel-cell cars run on electricity produced by taking hydrogen from a liquid such as methanol or gasoline, and combining it with oxygen from air. They emit only water and heat as exhaust and have become the focal point of research in an industry seeking cleaner alternatives to the internal-combustion engine. Where did the carbon go? Steve Spence Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] I'm a Newbie!!
Great State of Maine, USA. Jeff E. - Original Message - From: Gary and Jos Kimlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] I'm a Newbie!! Where are you Jeff? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite
Hi Martin, Thanks for the info. I have not received any info yet from companies I written to as to how much zeolite cost. As soon as I find out I will post it on this web. Good luck to you with your final exam. Ron - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite Molar mass of CH3CH2OH = ~46g Molar mass of H20 = ~33g Assuming you have 100 pounds of ethanol at 90%, you have around 9 pounds of water in there. Eight pounds of water being 30% [conservative figure] means 100% of the zeolite would be 25 pounds. [This was done in my head and it's probably erroneous by at least 10%] Not bad if zeolite is what I think it is, it can be dryed/reused. How much does your zeolite cost? -Martin Klingensmith [high school student, chemistry final is next week :)] --- ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to companies who are listed on the web, zeolite 3A will absorb 30 to 40% of its weight in water. I have read that 3A stands for 3 angstrums(spelling) and as I understand water molecues are bigger than that, it also will allow ethanol to pass right through but trapping the water. But, how much zeolite do you need to filter a gallon of ethanol to make it anhydrous. I don't know. Maybe one of our chemistry majors can help us with that. Anyone? Regards, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite Use molecular sieves to absorb water from ethanol/methanol. That's what they're made for and they're reusable/nontoxic. --- Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have any idea how much zeolite cost? I don't have a clue. Thanks for writing. Ron Miller According to the web source Keith provided, it's about $10 per pound, but I was quoted that much for silica gel, so it might be more now. BTW, the same source says only 10% of its weight in absorbed water, not the 25% I mentioned. Sounds lowsilica gel is good up to 40% of its weight, but it's not very selective -- may absorb ethanol nearly as much as water. Does anyone know? -K __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol
Yes, I believe it's 200 proof (minus the small percentage of denaturing agent). The denaturing agent is usually methanol. Would a small percentage of methanol in the mix hurt the biodiesel production? David --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: denatured. is that 200 proof, and does the denaturing agent affect biodiesel production? Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 2:22 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol vs. Methanol --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really, though, now that we know that ethanol is available why are we bothering with methanol? I find myself learning with methanol and then having to switch to ethanol for environmental advantage. Mike B Cost, cost, cost. I pay $3.00 a gallon for methanol in small quantities, others are paying much less. I can't even make my own anhydrous ethanol for less than $10 a gallon, and buying it from a commercial producer puts you over $50 a gallon with all the tax. -K That's odd. Where do you live? I can buy denatured ethanol at my local hardware store for about $7 a gallon (?) I think (I'm trying to remember the exact price). There is no liquor tax on denatured ethanol, since you can't drink it. David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Driving Without Gas
Driving Without Gas Gasohol Ethanol Methanol Electric Cars Gasogens By John Ware Lincoln http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/dwg/default.htm Just started scanning chapters... Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] oil filters
I think you will find that the Broaster filter for cooking oil takes down to 2 microns - this will make buying filters prohibitively expensive. Throughput is very low - 15 to 20 litres a minute. Your centrifuge filter should take down to 10 microns - the average vehicle fuel filter takes down to 8 microns Unless anybody knows better ... Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Residual oil in BD.
I don't really think this is true. Using 200ml methanol per liter of WVO is about a 60% molar excess (that is, 60% more methanol than is actually consumed in the transesterification). The excess helps to shift equilibrium in the desired direction, and I think we can expect something like 95% completion. Right. Combined processes need a little less meth, but still a 50% excess. When you start cheating on the methanol is when you start seeing more unconverted oil in the BD -- viscosity will be measurably higher as a result. -K You can observe your volumetric yield. With the right quantities of alcohol and catalyst the 95+ % conversion will give 100 to 103% volum. yield (measured at the same temp). The mass of the ester is actually somewhat lower and the volume is 3% higher, which should give at least 10% lower specific gravity (oil/fat vs. ester). Oh, and you can determine unreacted triglycs by chromatography. Titration isn't reliable. Cheers, Aleks Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Hydrogenated vegetable fat
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All Anybody know anything about Hydrogenated vegetable fat. I'm led to believe this is unusable. It might explain failures. Ian Ian, I'm forced to use almost only hydro veg fat (I'm saving the oil to make winter ethyl/isopropyl ester). Works very fine, but I don't believe it would resist early spring, late fall and winter. Take care of: 1. water in oil/fat 2. purity of alcohol 3. purity of lye/acid 4. sloppy weighing and volume measuring temperatures, mixer RPM, reaction times (+/-10%) ARE NOT A KEY FACTOR! Most of the failures in biod home production is due to the above four reasons. Aleks Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Driving Without Gas
Hi Steve and All, --- Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Driving Without Gas Gasohol Ethanol Methanol Electric Cars Gasogens By John Ware Lincoln I just finished reading this from the Hillsbrough co Fla library. Good info. Best at gasogens,ie producer gas genorators for cars/ trucks. I believe TB Reed from the gasification list was included for his work on mixing methanol/gasoline to extend the gasoline supplies at MIT. It was written in 1980. jerry dycus http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/dwg/default.htm Just started scanning chapters... Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
I think this is an excellent area of experimentation -- thinking back, I can recall very simple filters that effectively removed water. Most cars used to have a glass bowl on the bottom of the fuel pump, where water (and dirt) was collected. It was only a copper or brass screen that did this, and more recently I've seen simple brass screen filters on funnels used to fill chainsaws that were designed to trap water, and did so. However, that was with gasoline, and gasoiline doesn't absorb water the way alcohol does, so I'm not sure how well it would work with ethanol. I'd better it would work better with biodiesel -- not sure what Keith was refering to --- was that theoretical Keith, or were attempts actually made? Keith Addison wrote: Hi Cordain We've dealt with filtering water out of WVO before, and the consensus was that it wouldn't work. Not sure if dehydrating ethanol by filtering has come up. But the kind of filters you're talking of weren't discussed. If nobody else knows the answer, I very much hope it's you who'll be providing it! Are you in a position to experiment with these filters? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ I'm reposting this question because I do not believe it was answered last time I posted or perhaps I missed the reply. But their are marine fuel filters that are designed to filter the fuel and remove the water from it as well. Their is a serperate resevoir on the bottom of the filter that holds the water and periodically must be dumped. I am fully aware of their operation and intended use, however has anyone used them to filter oil or ethanol to remove the water? The filters I have in mind are of the large marine diesel variety and I am in the process of designing a recovery and pre-filter WVO (waste vegetable oil) trailer and am wondering if this filter would be effective for my purposes. Any insight is appreciated. regards, cordain dulles,va Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
