Re: [biofuel] Heating Oil and Upcoming Talk

[Keith Addison]

>One plug and one question:
>
>First: There will be a talk given on the basics of biodiesel and 
>what Middlebury College, VT is doing with it. This lecture will be 
>in the Bicentennial Hall room 219 for anyone interested and in the 
>area. It is on Wednesday, May 8th at 7:30 PM. E-mail me for more 
>info.
>
>Second: What is the consensus on heating the biodiesel to drive off 
>any excess water after the water wash. Is it necessary or can water 
>simply settle out after a few days. I know some will stay in 
>suspension, but is it necessary to heat the oil (especially if I am 
>working with big quantities). Please e-mail  me personally with an 
>answer if you have one.

Better to email the list so everyone can share it.

Keith

>Thanks,
>Ron Schildge
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>> IMO, Linux could be more widespread if its advocates had gotten over
>> their infatuation with their own genius and written slam-dunk
>> *windows* applications for the more-seemless transition to Linux.  
>> 
>
>   Well, sorry, but "windowizing" linux is just exactly what a lot of us don't
>want. I don't care if a lot of people don't use it, I'm not really 
>proselytizing
>it. I realized a long time ago that most people don't want to spend the time
>learning how to run it -- which is why I don't understand why those same people
>don't buy Macs, since they certainly are much easier to learn and use, are more
>intuitive, just plain are more robust and reliable. That's why computer stores
>don't push Macs -- they get a lot more support and xtra money out of windoze
>boxes. And likewise, network people don't like them because supporting a Mac
>network is so easy (the industry standard is that a Mac network tech can 
>support
>2-3 times as many machines as a windoze network tech. Consequently the Mac
>network people don't get paid well, either. 

You have not understood my suggestion.  I have not suggested any
window-izing of anything except the initial installation in those
terribly rare instances when a windows pc owner may dare to be
interested in installing Linux.  IMO, a good way to get a windows user
to be able to consider using Linux is to write a windows app that
might help guide windows users through the process.  They have bought
windows because it was user friendly, they might try a program which
is friendly as well.  At least the Linux program could be provided in
a compressed format that is not unintelligible to windows users.  Just
a smidgeon more user-friendliness to windows users would be one of the
deadliest things that could be done to diminish the Windows beast,
perhaps equally as deadly as giving StarOffice away, but Mr. Gates
probably goes to bed laughing about this rather than fearing it,
because Linux advocates are so full of the virtue of their hero that
it is the last thing they will ever do.  In this respect, they impede
its spread rather than aid it, IMO.  

It was never once suggested to me (that I recall) that I buy and set
up a separate drive when I attempted installation.  I do in fact do
occassional backups, which is why I said I lost only 50% of my data.
Doing a full backup seemed at the time prohibitively expensive and
inconvenient.

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[biofuel] Heating Oil and Upcoming Talk

[rschildge]

One plug and one question:

First: There will be a talk given on the basics of biodiesel and what 
Middlebury College, VT is doing with it. This lecture will be in the 
Bicentennial Hall room 219 for anyone interested and in the area. It is on 
Wednesday, May 8th at 7:30 PM. E-mail me for more info.

Second: What is the consensus on heating the biodiesel to drive off any excess 
water after the water wash. Is it necessary or can water simply settle out 
after a few days. I know some will stay in suspension, but is it necessary to 
heat the oil (especially if I am working with big quantities). Please e-mail  
me personally with an answer if you have one.

Thanks,
Ron Schildge
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[Harmon Seaver]

On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 07:04:30PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Sun, 5 May 2002 20:23:20 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Too bad they stopped work on the Mac version, although I guess the openoffice
> >version should run on OS X. 
> 
> What happened with this?  My brother was having problems loading
> certain websites with his Mac, but he was unable to try using
> StarOffice because there's no mac version
> 

   Dunno. When StarDivision was developing it in Germany, they made it cross
platform, even had native OS/2 and also a java version supposed to run on
anything that had java. And they had a Mac version. I guess when Sun bought it,
they weren't interested in paying for the Mac development. Too bad. But there
were Mac versions, maybe not in English tho. 



> >
> >> As to XP, ME, 98: I looked into this and opted to stick with 98.
> 
> >   Barfo -- oops, geez, from the physics of Tao to spirit religion to 
> > software
> >religion, all in one day. 
> 
> I do not have that much difficulty with Win98, never mind that it
> might not be put together elegantly or well, per an expert.
> 
 I didn't mean '98 per se, rather the whole M$ genre. 


> >   There is only one true OS, the blessed teachings of that Finnish gnome,
> >Father Torvald, blessed be His holy Name! All else are snares and iniquities,
> >designed to trap men's souls and drive them insane with frustration, with 
> >much
> >wheeping and gnashing of teeth and keys, world without end. Amen. 
> 
> If the Finnish Gods had actually wanted us to try their product, then
> they should have made it easier and less dangerous to install on a
> Windows HD or, taking into account the dangers of this operation, a
> second one nearby prepared for such an installation,

   Well, if you didn't have a backup before undertaking a major change, what can
I say? And even with upgrades to linux, it's best to do an install on a spare
partition or drive, leaving the working system intact, to check things out. It's
not the fault of linux, I guess I'd say someone who didn't do a backup first was
in a bit over his head anyway, eh?

> preparation aided by being able to download Linux, via windows, and so
> forth.  Maybe it's all a piece of cake by now.

No, it's not. And, in fact, the more that outfits like RedHat try to make
linux easier for Joe Homeuser, the more screwed up things get. I'll never
install another RedHat (or it's ilk) linux distribution again, and I ran it for
years. 
   Gimme that old time religion, I want the pure stuff. 

>  If so, they sure took
> their time about it.  I seldom met with anything but contempt when I
> attempted to explain to Linux advocates that I do not intend to become
> a computer expert to install something that will supposedly make my
> life easier. 

 Well, I think our creator intended that their be unix for the priesthood
and holy orders, and Macs for the laity. All else is perfidy and damnation and
darkness.


>  Net result: loss of about 50% of my data, and my setup.

   Do you run a daily backup? Weekly? If you aren't doing backups, I don't see
how you can really complain about losing stuff -- drives die suddenly and
without warning all the time. 

> 
> IMO, Linux could be more widespread if its advocates had gotten over
> their infatuation with their own genius and written slam-dunk
> *windows* applications for the more-seemless transition to Linux.  
> 

   Well, sorry, but "windowizing" linux is just exactly what a lot of us don't
want. I don't care if a lot of people don't use it, I'm not really proselytizing
it. I realized a long time ago that most people don't want to spend the time
learning how to run it -- which is why I don't understand why those same people
don't buy Macs, since they certainly are much easier to learn and use, are more
intuitive, just plain are more robust and reliable. That's why computer stores
don't push Macs -- they get a lot more support and xtra money out of windoze
boxes. And likewise, network people don't like them because supporting a Mac
network is so easy (the industry standard is that a Mac network tech can support
2-3 times as many machines as a windoze network tech. Consequently the Mac
network people don't get paid well, either. 



-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem <- software, microsoft, generally off topic

[Appal Energy]

Martin,

That's the nature of the embroidery industry. No software - no
embroidery - no money - no house - no biodiesel upgrade - no
worries, eh?

The better package from one of the better companies can cut
design creation time in half sometimes. The difference between
spending 4 hours and 8 hours on a design, which translates into
$120 in extra production or more any day of the week. Doesn't
take long to add up when you work 7 days a week.

My real pet peeve about all this is the new "ghost imaging" of
software on factory "back up" cds, where you're obligated to
following the paths pre-established by whoever created the image.
Forces you to go in and manually delete all the useless crap
later.

There goes another couple of hours. And the gods help you if you
make just one mistake that destabilizes another program.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem <- software, microsoft,
generally off topic


> XP can run programs in compatibility mode, which I had to do to
install AutoCAD
> 2000.
> No offense to your decision of choice, but $15000 for a
program? Was it custom
> written for you?
> And they want $1500 to 'upgrade' the software to work with XP,
when it should
> anyway.. I am not usually going to agree with Microsoft, but it
isn't their
> fault. It is whoever you got the software from.
> If you run Linux and pay me $1000 I'll write the software for
you :)
>
> --- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Wait till you try and run Windows XP.
> >
> > Brand new Sony VAIO and we had to downgrade from XP to
Windows 98
> > just to keep our bread and butter commercial embroidery
software
> > useable ($18,000.00 US for one simple CD). Or, we could have
> > droped $1,500 to upgrade the software to match XP.
> >
> > Few if any computer sales staffs nationwide, if not globally,
> > have a clue as to how much software becomes useless when
> > upgrading operating systems. And the ones who are aware don't
> > take any pains to inform consumers. And Microsoft damned sure
> > doesn't.
> >
> > Worse still, many of the files established in older versions
of
> > MS products that were opened and then saved under the newer
> > pre-installed versions, such as the Office 2000 suite that
came
> > with XP (Word, Excel, Publisher, Powerpoint, etc.) cannot be
> > re-opened after the downgrade, as they are now "incompatible"
> > with older software.
> >
> > I'd like to have $1.00 for every minute Microsoft has cost
me. I
> > could take the year off without pay.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
>
>
> =
> -Martin Klingensmith
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> http://devzero.ath.cx/
> http://www.nnytech.net/
>
>
> __
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>
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Re: Origins and Ends #2...was RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Appal Energy]

Hell, Harmon...

I didn't inhale the first time 30 years back. Can't say as I made
the same error in judgement the second go around though.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Origins and Ends #2...was RE: [biofuel] More free
energy (maybe)


> On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 02:31:33PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote:
> > The leaders of all groups, parties, sects, affiliations,
factions
> > or religions are inevitably and without fail called "con men"
and
>
> Well, we have actual court records showing Joseph Smith
convicted and going
> to prison for swindling people out of large sums of money using
his "Peep
> Stone" which gave him supernatural knowledge - the same "Peep
Stone" he later
> used to find the buried tablets revealing the teachings he
developed into
> Mormonism - tablets only he could decipher.
> And Mohammed -- a ner' do well who married a woman more
than twice his age,
> who just happened to be filthy rich. This isn't rumour, it's
documented
> history undisputed by anyone. What do you call men who do
things like
> that? Or give him the benefit of the doubt -- say he married
for love, eh? What
> do we call a young man who marries a woman his grandmother's
age? And who then
> got "revelations" that allowed him to marry a bunch more women?
> This isn't even about religious faith, this is simply
looking at history
> with an open mind, using the same facility of judgement we use
when evaluating
> cold fusion, the latest "free energy magnetic generator" or
statements from the
> Whitehouse about "I didn't inhale", "what the definition of is
is", "I've only
> met Kenneyboy once or twice", "those who criticize their
government during these
> times are aiding the terrorists", etc.
>
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>


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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

On Sun, 5 May 2002 20:23:20 -0500, you wrote:

>On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 05:39:50PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> Oh yeah, it has a browser that works quite nicely (which makes sense
>> when one considers Sun's experience with connectivity this makes
>> sense), but I don't use it much.
>
>   It also has an excellent html editor, draw app, powerpoint clone, access
>clone, etc. Yup, I've been running it since when it was still all in Deutsch.
>Too bad they stopped work on the Mac version, although I guess the openoffice
>version should run on OS X. 

What happened with this?  My brother was having problems loading
certain websites with his Mac, but he was unable to try using
StarOffice because there's no mac version

>
>> As to XP, ME, 98: I looked into this and opted to stick with 98.

>   Barfo -- oops, geez, from the physics of Tao to spirit religion to software
>religion, all in one day. 

I do not have that much difficulty with Win98, never mind that it
might not be put together elegantly or well, per an expert.

>   There is only one true OS, the blessed teachings of that Finnish gnome,
>Father Torvald, blessed be His holy Name! All else are snares and iniquities,
>designed to trap men's souls and drive them insane with frustration, with much
>wheeping and gnashing of teeth and keys, world without end. Amen. 

If the Finnish Gods had actually wanted us to try their product, then
they should have made it easier and less dangerous to install on a
Windows HD or, taking into account the dangers of this operation, a
second one nearby prepared for such an installation, with all
preparation aided by being able to download Linux, via windows, and so
forth.  Maybe it's all a piece of cake by now.  If so, they sure took
their time about it.  I seldom met with anything but contempt when I
attempted to explain to Linux advocates that I do not intend to become
a computer expert to install something that will supposedly make my
life easier.  Net result: loss of about 50% of my data, and my setup.

IMO, Linux could be more widespread if its advocates had gotten over
their infatuation with their own genius and written slam-dunk
*windows* applications for the more-seemless transition to Linux.  

As for the other operating systems alluded to today on this board, the
ones for human beings, I haven't heard any mentioned that are
tempting, however poetically fulfilling and comforting may be some of
their accumulated ramblings.

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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[J.L. RhŽaume]

Bonsoir Mme Robert,

 Merci de vous tre donnŽ la peine de me rŽpondre. Je dŽsirais
simplement voir une carte de votre rŽseau incluse dans votre site Web, pour
que tous les visiteurs la voient.

Au Revoir
J.L. RhŽaume
MontrŽal QC


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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem <- software, microsoft, generally off topic

[Martin Klingensmith]

XP can run programs in compatibility mode, which I had to do to install AutoCAD
2000. 
No offense to your decision of choice, but $15000 for a program? Was it custom
written for you?
And they want $1500 to 'upgrade' the software to work with XP, when it should
anyway.. I am not usually going to agree with Microsoft, but it isn't their
fault. It is whoever you got the software from.
If you run Linux and pay me $1000 I'll write the software for you :)

--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wait till you try and run Windows XP.
> 
> Brand new Sony VAIO and we had to downgrade from XP to Windows 98
> just to keep our bread and butter commercial embroidery software
> useable ($18,000.00 US for one simple CD). Or, we could have
> droped $1,500 to upgrade the software to match XP.
> 
> Few if any computer sales staffs nationwide, if not globally,
> have a clue as to how much software becomes useless when
> upgrading operating systems. And the ones who are aware don't
> take any pains to inform consumers. And Microsoft damned sure
> doesn't.
> 
> Worse still, many of the files established in older versions of
> MS products that were opened and then saved under the newer
> pre-installed versions, such as the Office 2000 suite that came
> with XP (Word, Excel, Publisher, Powerpoint, etc.) cannot be
> re-opened after the downgrade, as they are now "incompatible"
> with older software.
> 
> I'd like to have $1.00 for every minute Microsoft has cost me. I
> could take the year off without pay.
> 
> Todd Swearingen
> 


=
-Martin Klingensmith
http://archive.nnytech.net/
http://devzero.ath.cx/
http://www.nnytech.net/


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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[Harmon Seaver]

On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 05:39:50PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah, it has a browser that works quite nicely (which makes sense
> when one considers Sun's experience with connectivity this makes
> sense), but I don't use it much.

   It also has an excellent html editor, draw app, powerpoint clone, access
clone, etc. Yup, I've been running it since when it was still all in Deutsch.
Too bad they stopped work on the Mac version, although I guess the openoffice
version should run on OS X. 

> 
> It is not perfect.  But it can pretty much do everything you'd expect
> from an Office Suite.  I don't know anything about how its db
> qualities are.  Remember: it is Sun, so it is not fly-by-night.
> Available from 
> 
> http://wwws.sun.com/software/star/staroffice/5.2/get.html
> 
> 
   Also you might want to check out the latest opensource version at
http://www.openoffice.org



> As to XP, ME, 98: I looked into this and opted to stick with 98.

   Barfo -- oops, geez, from the physics of Tao to spirit religion to software
religion, all in one day. 
   There is only one true OS, the blessed teachings of that Finnish gnome,
Father Torvald, blessed be His holy Name! All else are snares and iniquities,
designed to trap men's souls and drive them insane with frustration, with much
wheeping and gnashing of teeth and keys, world without end. Amen. 



-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

I'm sorry, but I can't resist chiming in on this obviously off-topic
topic.

As for upgrading Microsoft Office (not an operating system but a suite
of applications) I have been using Sun's *Free* *Downloadable* Star
Office Suite as an alternative for about three years now, and I can
tell you that it is particularly strong in the arena of being able to
read documents from Microsoft Office.  I have never had a single
problem being able to read a document someone sent to me or being able
to export a document to someone who insisted on a Microsoft
Office-compatible format.  Most of the time I do not bother to tell
them that I do not any longer have MS Office Loaded on my computer.
This suite is available from Sun.com  Drawbacks, it's a bit slow in
Windows, it takes getting-used-to.  I guess there is this or that
drawback to this or that app within the suite.  But I don't really
care, as who uses 99% of the details of these apps?   

When I first got it and had a spreadsheet project, I had to keep Excel
loaded for one or two functions that I couldn't find in StarOffice.
Otherwise I devised my stock index research here:

http://www.herecomesmongo.com/cgi-local/tokens.pl?/ae/ae.htm

using StarOffice Spreadsheet entirely.  Sun is doing to MS Office what
MS Explorer did to Netscape Browser (giving away an equivalent product
and ruining their market share or potential to make profits).  They
are doing to MS Office what MS Word did to Wordperfect: slowly
chipping away at what was once assumed to be an insurmountable
position.

Oh yeah, it has a browser that works quite nicely (which makes sense
when one considers Sun's experience with connectivity this makes
sense), but I don't use it much.

It is not perfect.  But it can pretty much do everything you'd expect
from an Office Suite.  I don't know anything about how its db
qualities are.  Remember: it is Sun, so it is not fly-by-night.
Available from 

http://wwws.sun.com/software/star/staroffice/5.2/get.html


As to XP, ME, 98: I looked into this and opted to stick with 98.
Having gotten off the MS Office Train, I still do have a lot of money
in my Windows apps, and am not interested in screwing up the whole
thing.  XP is their first attempt to replace a DOS OS with an NT OS
for home consumers.  I figure they'll get it 66% right by the second
or third try.  I've tried changing OS's on this hard drive (say to
Linux) and I hope I never try again.

MM

>> I'd like to have $1.00 for every minute Microsoft has cost me. I
>> could take the year off without pay.
>> 
>> Todd Swearingen
>
> I just had to purchase the newest version of Office 2000 to be able 
>to read many of the files I was getting from some of the guys working 
>on my Project. One of them got the new stuff, then another couldn't 
>open it, and upgraded, and so forth. I finally had to buy it too. Now 
>I can only share those docs with other users who have the 'latest and 
>greatest'.
> I have a lot of usable software for Windows 95, and I'm considering 
>putting together another machine just to use them. It doesn't take 
>much of a processor to run 95, and I can 'tinker' a lot. Used parts 
>are very inexpensive.
>My current ME doesn't allow much 'tinkering' with formats.
>
>Motie
>Future Mac owner?
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
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>
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>
>


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Re: Origins and Ends #2...was RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Harmon Seaver]

On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 02:31:33PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote:
> The leaders of all groups, parties, sects, affiliations, factions
> or religions are inevitably and without fail called "con men" and

Well, we have actual court records showing Joseph Smith convicted and going
to prison for swindling people out of large sums of money using his "Peep
Stone" which gave him supernatural knowledge - the same "Peep Stone" he later
used to find the buried tablets revealing the teachings he developed into
Mormonism - tablets only he could decipher. 
And Mohammed -- a ner' do well who married a woman more than twice his age,
who just happened to be filthy rich. This isn't rumour, it's documented
history undisputed by anyone. What do you call men who do things like
that? Or give him the benefit of the doubt -- say he married for love, eh? What
do we call a young man who marries a woman his grandmother's age? And who then
got "revelations" that allowed him to marry a bunch more women? 
This isn't even about religious faith, this is simply looking at history
with an open mind, using the same facility of judgement we use when evaluating
cold fusion, the latest "free energy magnetic generator" or statements from the
Whitehouse about "I didn't inhale", "what the definition of is is", "I've only
met Kenneyboy once or twice", "those who criticize their government during these
times are aiding the terrorists", etc. 



-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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[biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wait till you try and run Windows XP.
> 
> Brand new Sony VAIO and we had to downgrade from XP to Windows 98
> just to keep our bread and butter commercial embroidery software
> useable ($18,000.00 US for one simple CD). Or, we could have
> droped $1,500 to upgrade the software to match XP.
> 
> Few if any computer sales staffs nationwide, if not globally,
> have a clue as to how much software becomes useless when
> upgrading operating systems. And the ones who are aware don't
> take any pains to inform consumers. And Microsoft damned sure
> doesn't.
> 
> Worse still, many of the files established in older versions of
> MS products that were opened and then saved under the newer
> pre-installed versions, such as the Office 2000 suite that came
> with XP (Word, Excel, Publisher, Powerpoint, etc.) cannot be
> re-opened after the downgrade, as they are now "incompatible"
> with older software.
> 
> I'd like to have $1.00 for every minute Microsoft has cost me. I
> could take the year off without pay.
> 
> Todd Swearingen

 I just had to purchase the newest version of Office 2000 to be able 
to read many of the files I was getting from some of the guys working 
on my Project. One of them got the new stuff, then another couldn't 
open it, and upgraded, and so forth. I finally had to buy it too. Now 
I can only share those docs with other users who have the 'latest and 
greatest'.
 I have a lot of usable software for Windows 95, and I'm considering 
putting together another machine just to use them. It doesn't take 
much of a processor to run 95, and I can 'tinker' a lot. Used parts 
are very inexpensive.
My current ME doesn't allow much 'tinkering' with formats.

Motie
Future Mac owner?


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Re: Religion - was [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> Further, there are other nuances to such matters, such as the
> philosophic and psychological issues that come up on political
> strategizing, as well as in discussing the issues around science and
> its history.  Since religion is a subset of philosophy (at least as 
I
> see it) I don't see a quick easy to way to delienate here.
> 
> Anyway, this is a great discussion group, though obviously I am not 
up
> to the hardcore chemistry discussion.  I'd rather have it that folks
> go over the line, since it's hard to find integrated thinking or
> attempts at it, and then I can just filter out what I don't want to
> respond to.  But that's just my $.02 and I haven't been here that
> long.

 I tend to agree with the need for Political strategizing. We can 
only progress to a certain level,(commercial production) before 
poltics will rear it's head.
That is a reality we do need to deal with. Some of us are at 
different levels of progress in our interests. Many have not reached 
the level where Politics kick in. Some may never reach that level, if 
they intend to keep it as a hobby in the backyard.

Motie


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Re: [biofuel] recent news: BP apparently to use ethanol, not MTBE

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>>Are they well-intentioned or are they going to set ethanol up for a
>>year-2000-Chicago-style ambush where they drive prices way higher and
>>use this evidence that ethanol somehow does cost that much to
>>integrate?  If Davis tries to integrate an RFG program rather than an
>>ethanol program, will BP abandon ethanol?  How much added ethanol will
>>BP require additional to what they're doing now?

Thanks for the excellent response.  I had developed some basic
skepticism of the Oils, such as through your posts and Doyle's book
and years of following this or that, but I was not specifically aware
of BP's Greenwash awards.  Interesting.  Funny, but I recently took a
little flack for voicing my inbuilt skepticism on Shell: not that I
completely doubt that they see energy diversification as somewhat
rational, but I don't think they should be taken at their word on
every enlightened energy initiative, just because they and a couple of
other oils are viewed as somewhat relatively enlightened compared to
XOM.

I'm completely in awe of the Oil Lobby for their ability to wage these
battles on complex levels and disseminate so many half-truths that one
is befuddled.  Seldom have I seen evidence of this such as one finds
when one sees Environmentalists and consumer activists attacking all
ethanol and biofuel efforts, with a dozen or two or three different
arguments.  That the Oil Lobby has succeeded in getting
Environmentalists, Consumer Activists and Democratic Liberal
Politicians to do their bidding without really often raising a direct
hand is frankly an incredible-looking achievement of lobbying and
societal hacking.  I am not assigning a normative value of "good" to
it, but am admiring the work of the enemy.  At least, that is my
working view of it.  If we want to make some inroads, we must develop
an accurate view of what we are up against.

I am concerned and skpetical about why BP is doing this, moreso now
that I've read your information, but I'm also hopeful.  It seemed like
there would be no break in the dam.  Now there's a fissure of
indeterminate value or size.  I don't want to see Californians forced
into slavery paying off political favors to the Midwest, I just want
to see a modest percentage of our fuel purchases go to a source
outside fossil fuels, so we can get a much more first-hand idea of
doing that, and so that the total monopoly of the Oils on refining and
distribution can be exposed and discussed and modified, here in the
state whose auto purchases are so influential that entire design
studios are located here and where so many auto makers pay attention
to what we want.

>BP's won two Greenwash awards in the last two years. They're strongly 
>pushing a green image, but it definitely needs a good read of the 
>small print. They were in the news headlines recently as showing Bush 
>the way on climate change - Bush and, one should add, Exxon-Mobil, a 
>rival Sister. BP and Shell are investing heavily in solar, biomass, 
>etc - or at least they say so, loudly, but its a tiny fraction of 
>their continiuing investments in fossil fuels, and their fossil-fuel 
>investment is not at all decreasing (which is rather the impression 
>the PR tries to give). I don't think it would be wise to see them as 
>well-intentioned, but that doesn't mean they'll cheat on it - and 
>doesn't mean they won't either. When it comes to a conflict between 
>the PR line and the bottom line, they'll go for the bottom line and 
>the PR will switch to damage control.

Thanks for the info about France. Didn't know that.  Isn't it true
that MTBE is catching on in Europe somewhat even as it's being phased
out here?

>Worth adding that BP sued France in the EU court over France's tax 
>preferences for ethanol, claiming that it distorted BP's markets for 
>MTBE. And they won.
>
>http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous.html#3012
>BP -- Beyond Preposterous
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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[biofuel] Re: New upload,lengthy personal observations

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "k5farms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I urge all to strive to look for a bigger picture, whether 
> contemplating Jerimiah 33:3, studying www.journeytoforever.org or 
at 
> least a simple "Good day" to your neighbor. To idly sit by and do 
> nothing seems such a waste. We are in a race, the human race, and 
> we're all in it togather and I really don't feel like having bad 
> science telling me that its not worth it or that I've already 
crossed 
> the finish line.
> 
> God Speed, Keep throwing on more "fuel"

 I don't feel like I'm alone, and wondering if it's worth it, when I 
read an occasional piece like this.
Thanks for sharing it,
Motie


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Re: Religion - was [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

On Mon, 6 May 2002 03:53:14 +0900, you wrote:

>Kris Book wrote:
>
>>If you guys can't stop discussing religion, at least change
>>the subject line so that those who are willing to follow
>>the rules can simply delete these off topic posts.
>
>What rules?
>
>One non-rule I keep repeating is that nothing's off-topic in the big 
>wide wonderful world of biofuels, at least not on this list with its 
>diverse and global membership.

...

>Anyway, no rules maybe, but as Harmon pointed out there was a ruling 
>recently, a different matter: NO MORE RELIGION!
>
>Please all take note.
>
>Keith Addison
>Moderator-of-sorts

$.02: A good discussion group (and this is one, why have I been
wasting all my energies on yahoo-HIPC all these years?) is invariably
going to make connections and dig deeper, though the nominative
discussion group topic may be well-defined and compartmentalized.

If debating some of the basic science of energy is very much on-topic,
then I don't see any way to avoid bringing up philosophy and religion.
I may personally look down upon clinging to the idea that the Bible
(or some other religious thought) is pertinent to cosmology physics
discussions in 21st century society, but others may not.  I guess I
can build a list of email filters, though that is a double-edged
sword.

I suppose a line that can be drawn here is to point out that if
sometimes the science of energy is going to come up, that the Bible
and other religious texts are discredited as good sources of
scientific physics thinking, and so are generally not pertinent on a
specific scientific level.  But there is no hope of convincing too
many others of that, or of getting them to respect that, so I wouldn't
bother to try personally.  I'd just ignore them for the most part.

Further, there are other nuances to such matters, such as the
philosophic and psychological issues that come up on political
strategizing, as well as in discussing the issues around science and
its history.  Since religion is a subset of philosophy (at least as I
see it) I don't see a quick easy to way to delienate here.

Anyway, this is a great discussion group, though obviously I am not up
to the hardcore chemistry discussion.  I'd rather have it that folks
go over the line, since it's hard to find integrated thinking or
attempts at it, and then I can just filter out what I don't want to
respond to.  But that's just my $.02 and I haven't been here that
long.

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Re: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[Appal Energy]

Wait till you try and run Windows XP.

Brand new Sony VAIO and we had to downgrade from XP to Windows 98
just to keep our bread and butter commercial embroidery software
useable ($18,000.00 US for one simple CD). Or, we could have
droped $1,500 to upgrade the software to match XP.

Few if any computer sales staffs nationwide, if not globally,
have a clue as to how much software becomes useless when
upgrading operating systems. And the ones who are aware don't
take any pains to inform consumers. And Microsoft damned sure
doesn't.

Worse still, many of the files established in older versions of
MS products that were opened and then saved under the newer
pre-installed versions, such as the Office 2000 suite that came
with XP (Word, Excel, Publisher, Powerpoint, etc.) cannot be
re-opened after the downgrade, as they are now "incompatible"
with older software.

I'd like to have $1.00 for every minute Microsoft has cost me. I
could take the year off without pay.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: motie_d <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 4:32 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: PDF problem


> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I'm glad you got the attachment anyway Motie, but what's that
> machine
> > of yours been smoking? Yes, Apple-deficient, LOL! They're not
that
> > expensive, I got a really good deal on this one, G4 out of
the box,
> > but much less than the new price. Great machine, I never have
to
> > bother with it, it just does whatever I want.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
>
> I was a bit short-sighted when I needed to upgrade from my old
> machine. All I really needed was more hard-drive space. As long
as I
> was doing that, I decided to get a faster processor too. When
> comparing the economics of replacing my hard drive and
processor, it
> wasn't very much extra to get a complete machine. I had a
fairly
> extensive software collection, all written for Windows, so I
stayed
> with that format. I foolishly allowed the salesman to install
the
> Millenium Edition, so most of my software was useless anyway. I
have
> since managed to accumulate enough patches from software
companies,
> and Microsoft came out with a few, so I can now run most of my
> programs. I think my next upgrade will be to a laptop, and it
will
> probably be a Mac.
> I originally started out with MS because most of the software
was
> written for it. That is no longer the case.
>
> Motie
>
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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address.
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Service.
>
>


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[biofuel] Re: PDF problem

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I'm glad you got the attachment anyway Motie, but what's that 
machine 
> of yours been smoking? Yes, Apple-deficient, LOL! They're not that 
> expensive, I got a really good deal on this one, G4 out of the box, 
> but much less than the new price. Great machine, I never have to 
> bother with it, it just does whatever I want.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith

 I was a bit short-sighted when I needed to upgrade from my old 
machine. All I really needed was more hard-drive space. As long as I 
was doing that, I decided to get a faster processor too. When 
comparing the economics of replacing my hard drive and processor, it 
wasn't very much extra to get a complete machine. I had a fairly 
extensive software collection, all written for Windows, so I stayed 
with that format. I foolishly allowed the salesman to install the 
Millenium Edition, so most of my software was useless anyway. I have 
since managed to accumulate enough patches from software companies, 
and Microsoft came out with a few, so I can now run most of my 
programs. I think my next upgrade will be to a laptop, and it will 
probably be a Mac.
 I originally started out with MS because most of the software was 
written for it. That is no longer the case.

Motie


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Re: Origins and Ends #2...was RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Keith Addison]

>And here I thought I was going to be stuck hearing about boring
>biofuel discussions. Is there a gun thread that pops up here to, those
>seem to be pretty popular on some lists :-)
>
>This is pretty apt actually. I'm currently building what can now be
>described as his "Unitary Church to Biodiesel Processing." Sort of a
>traveling alter. I plan to proselitize to schools- get 'em young is
>what I say. Praise the rape seed. Big oil is the devil. Man, this
>works :-) I'll take none of you're wimpy "infinite uniqueness of the
>broader existance" tripe! I've got biodiesel! Let's go to war!
>Persecute! Kill the big oil heretics! :-)
>
>-J (Sorry, just got finished watching my "Life of Brian" tape...)

Aw, I thought it was for real - you mean you're not going to kill all 
the big oil heretics? Damn.

Yes, a gun thread pops up now and then, it's not welcome, it'll get 
itself banned next time.

Jonathan, forgive me but I'm a bit puzzled - you said you're running 
workshops now and want to start a coop, which is great, I reckon this 
ground-level work is maybe more important than anything else. But I 
thought you hadn't got your chemicals yet? Or is all that sorted out 
now?

>By the way, anyone know how to braze a fitting onto my stainless tank,
>or should I just hire the job out and not risk ruining it?

See "Soldering, brazing":
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html#solder

Best

Keith

>* Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [020505 14:32]:
>
>...
> > Personally, I'd rather remain in complete awe of the complexities
> > and infinite uniqueness of the broader existance in which we
> > participate than get caught up in the passion and narcotic fervor
> > of any party line.
>
>--
>Jonathan Pennington|   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>"It's hard to take life too seriously
>when you realize yours is a joke." -original
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
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>
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Re: Origins and Ends #2...was RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Jonathan Pennington]

And here I thought I was going to be stuck hearing about boring
biofuel discussions. Is there a gun thread that pops up here to, those
seem to be pretty popular on some lists :-)

This is pretty apt actually. I'm currently building what can now be
described as his "Unitary Church to Biodiesel Processing." Sort of a
traveling alter. I plan to proselitize to schools- get 'em young is
what I say. Praise the rape seed. Big oil is the devil. Man, this
works :-) I'll take none of you're wimpy "infinite uniqueness of the
broader existance" tripe! I've got biodiesel! Let's go to war!
Persecute! Kill the big oil heretics! :-)

-J (Sorry, just got finished watching my "Life of Brian" tape...)

By the way, anyone know how to braze a fitting onto my stainless tank,
or should I just hire the job out and not risk ruining it?

* Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [020505 14:32]:

...
> Personally, I'd rather remain in complete awe of the complexities
> and infinite uniqueness of the broader existance in which we
> participate than get caught up in the passion and narcotic fervor
> of any party line.

-- 
Jonathan Pennington |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"It's hard to take life too seriously
when you realize yours is a joke." -original

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Re: Religion - was [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Keith Addison]

Kris Book wrote:

>If you guys can't stop discussing religion, at least change
>the subject line so that those who are willing to follow
>the rules can simply delete these off topic posts.

What rules?

One non-rule I keep repeating is that nothing's off-topic in the big 
wide wonderful world of biofuels, at least not on this list with its 
diverse and global membership. Posts may be uninteresting to 
individual members, sure, but not necessarily off-topic. Even where 
it definitely goes off any conceivable topic, it quite often turns up 
something on-topic that might not otherwise have emerged.

But you're right about changing the subject lines, good netiquette. 
We get occasional reminders but not often enough, thankyou.

Weird though, off-topic religion is causing a fuss on several 
different lists right now, nothing to do with biofuels. Things happen 
in strange patterns. Or maybe William Gibson's right and the 
Internet's infested with a bunch of unruly Haitian bush gods with an 
agenda all their own.

Anyway, no rules maybe, but as Harmon pointed out there was a ruling 
recently, a different matter: NO MORE RELIGION!

Please all take note.

Keith Addison
Moderator-of-sorts


>--- Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:10:47AM -0600, kirk wrote:
> > >
> > > A Moslem friend of mine sent me a cd with a bunch of
> > video presentations
> > > refuting Darwin etc and talking about the big bang.
> > > I think most people believe Moslems believe something
> > strange. As a
> > > Christian I found little to disagree with. The snip
> > below from Harun Yahya,
> > > a Moslem evangelist, is a representative sample. The
> > big bang needs to be
> > > seen in its entirety as there are some fascinating
> > aspects. The velocity of
> > > the bang if altered even 1% would result in a mostly
> > empty night sky and so
> > > on.
> > >
> > > The main difference I see between Islam and
> > Christianity is they don't know
> > > who Jesus is. Beyond that the similarities are greater
> > than the differences.
> > >
> >
> > It's pretty interesting to take a really close look
> > at the origins of both
> > Islam and Mormonism -- both religions were started by con
> > men who made their way
> > in life by bilking people before they became
> > "enlightened". Joseph Smith even
> > did time for it. Lots of other parallels.
> >But I thought we were done with the religion/biofuels
> > thread?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Keith Addison]

Hello Craig

>Keith,
>
>You wrote:
>
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.stm
> > BBC News 25 April, 2002
> > Universe in 'endless cycle'
> > Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning and it will
> > have no end.
>
>I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a universe with no
>beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and always will
>be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a finite
>universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the mud" that
>started the chemical reactions that led to organic life answers one
>question (how did life originate?) but raises more questions - such as
>"where did the mud come from?" (and what about the spark?)
>
>Alan Watts wrote that the Eastern philosophies regard the notion of
>"beginnings" or "creation" as fundamentally flawed - to ask "how did
>Something come out of Nothing" fails to recognize the essential inter
>relatedness of the two - and the proper question is:
>
>"How did Something-and-Nothing" (hyphenated to show their total inter
>relatedness - two sides of the same coin) come out of What?" With the
>obvious subtext that whatever Something-and-Nothing (aka our material
>universe) arose out of something that always was here and always will
>be..
>
>I return you to you regularly scheduled programming.
>
>Craig

I'm none too sure that our capacity to wrap our heads round it is 
anything much of a criterion. We'd certainly be more comfortable with 
ideas of somethingness rather than nothingness, and of continuation 
rather than cessation, a continuing something makes a lot more sense 
to us. But on that basis quantum physics, for instance, would have to 
be a load of crap, it goes against everything we know and feel to be 
right. But it's not crap, and our natural ideas are wrong.

Anyway the Big Bang theory doesn't imply nothingness, just a changed state.

Eastern cultures are very much given to the idea of an orderly 
continuity, especially in Confucianism, but you find it in all their 
philosophies, I think. That and the interdependence of opposites as 
opposed to what they call Western dualism. Tantric Buddhism might be 
the most interesting of them when it comes to physics and cosmology. 
But the East doesn't have a sole franchise on these ideas. You also 
find all these insights in Western philosophy, though that tends to 
be obscured. I don't think the "spark in the mud" idea is peculiarly 
Western, the West and its culture and ideas is much vaster than that. 
It's typical of a recent phase of part of our culture, but you can 
find just as much of just the opposite in the West, even today. I 
think dualism and non-dualistic thinking are quite compatible, even 
necessarily so, just another two-sided coin. Like Logos and Eros, 
maybe the same. Maya, all is maya. As is, I fear, the quest for free 
energy.

Regards

Keith



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Re: [biofuel] recent news: BP apparently to use ethanol, not MTBE

[Keith Addison]

murdoch65 wrote:

> >http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020502/lath078_1.html
>
>Boy, don't you guys have any comments on this at all?  This is
>out-of-nowhere.  They're actually going to do it.  I mean, just for
>one thing, I've *never* seen any ethanol mix for sale in any station
>in San Diego.  Now I'm going to be able to drive a bit further down
>the street and buy at ARCO.  Maybe they've had it and I just haven't
>seen it.  But I try to keep an eye out.
>
>Are they well-intentioned or are they going to set ethanol up for a
>year-2000-Chicago-style ambush where they drive prices way higher and
>use this evidence that ethanol somehow does cost that much to
>integrate?  If Davis tries to integrate an RFG program rather than an
>ethanol program, will BP abandon ethanol?  How much added ethanol will
>BP require additional to what they're doing now?

BP's won two Greenwash awards in the last two years. They're strongly 
pushing a green image, but it definitely needs a good read of the 
small print. They were in the news headlines recently as showing Bush 
the way on climate change - Bush and, one should add, Exxon-Mobil, a 
rival Sister. BP and Shell are investing heavily in solar, biomass, 
etc - or at least they say so, loudly, but its a tiny fraction of 
their continiuing investments in fossil fuels, and their fossil-fuel 
investment is not at all decreasing (which is rather the impression 
the PR tries to give). I don't think it would be wise to see them as 
well-intentioned, but that doesn't mean they'll cheat on it - and 
doesn't mean they won't either. When it comes to a conflict between 
the PR line and the bottom line, they'll go for the bottom line and 
the PR will switch to damage control.

Worth adding that BP sued France in the EU court over France's tax 
preferences for ethanol, claiming that it distorted BP's markets for 
MTBE. And they won.

http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous.html#3012
BP -- Beyond Preposterous

Best

Keith


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[biofuel] Re: New upload,lengthy personal observations

[Keith Addison]

Hello k5

Thanks for an interesting letter.

>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>, and people like Pimental pontificate on
> > energy inputs to ethanol and reckon they make some sense. And we've
> > all been persuaded that animal fats are bad for us. BS. No, not out
> > of date. That last aspect of the book goes well with this:
> >
> > http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Famish/famworldToC.html
> > This Famishing World
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Keith
>
>I went to answer the previous post about using cattails vs. corn for
>ethanol production, searching the web for details of co-products and
>invairiably Dr Pimentals statistics came up. I've debated with myself
>on bringing him up and you did it for me. Here's what I want to
>believe.
>
>Pimental tried to go "outside the box" and get a more complete picture
>of all the inputs and outputs, better science so to speak, He included
>btu's for the creation of even tractor parts, etc.. He tried to look
>at the bigger picture. But, from what I understand, he missed the
>whole picture and neglected other outputs of ethanol production and
>the benefit of ethanol for the future, something that we cannot even
>measure. It is hard to measure, science has tried to measure
>BTU's,Energy content, Market value, Replacement value and output
>weight values, etc.. but none will be able to prove the "whole
>picture"!
>
>Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but I never saw Pimental pontificate, but
>certainly others used his science to do just that, much to the
>detriment of ethanol, and the flawed science made its way into ethanol
>history and thats why I understand your objections about TFP et al.

I think you're probably right, but still Pimental can't come off 
unscathed. He uses way outdated figures and misapplies them to 
produce a distorted picture, and that's often been pointed out to 
him, but he keeps on doing it anyway. Why would he do that? I believe 
he has an agenda.

It's kind of turtuous reasoning to use the environmental damage 
caused by the fossil fuel use of US industrial farming to discredit 
ethanol, when what's the alternative to ethanol other than fossil 
fuels?

What he writes about "Food Versus Fuel Issues" is just nonsense:

>Present food shortages throughout the world call attention to the 
>importance of continuing U.S. exports of corn and other grains for 
>human food to reduce malnutrition and starvation. Increased corn 
>exports increase the market for corn, improve the U.S. balance of 
>payments, and most importantly help feed people who need additional 
>food for their survival. Present U.S. grain exports total about $40 
>billion per year (USBC, 1996). Clearly using corn for food is 
>beneficial for many reasons.
>
>Expanding ethanol production could entail diverting essential 
>cropland from producing corn needed to sustain human life to 
>producing corn for ethanol factories.

There is no food shortage. There's more food per capita now than 
there's ever been before. Growing more industrial crops won't help to 
correct the inequitable distribution system that's the cause of world 
hunger. I'm very suspicious of people who still make these spurious 
claims.

Pimental must know that most US corn is used for feeding animals, not 
hungry people - 76% of the corn used in the US is used for animal 
feed. Twenty percent of the total US corn crop is exported; 
two-thirds of these exports go directly to the wealthy industrial 
OECD countries, mostly to feed animals. Less than three-tenths of one 
percent of total US corn exports went to the 25 poorest countries in 
1996. More US corn goes to make alcoholic beverages in the US than is 
exported to feed the hungry in the world's 25 most undernourished 
countries combined.

I think ethanol is actually a bit of a side-issue with David 
Pimental, it seems to be part of a model of sustainability that he 
pushes, that's really just hopelessly wrong. He starts with a priori 
assumptions and sets out to prove them. For instance, again, he uses 
objections to confinement livestock operations to condemn livestock 
farming as a whole - no livestock. Well, as Robert Luis Rabello 
recently pointed out, no livestock, no sustainability, it's as simple 
as that.

Pimental's not an energy specialist, he's a prof at Cornell's College 
of Agriculture and Life Sciences, he started out as an entomologist, 
now he's an ecologist. An ecologist who denies the interdependence of 
plants and animals in agriculture is not much of an ecologist, IMO.

>What Pimental taught me is that yes, one needs to look at the "bigger
>picture" and to keep ones eyes open for things that might have been
>missed or new science that hasn't proven yet. I hope we might all
>learn from this. And it brought out others with more advanced science
>who certainly learned from his shortcomings.
>
>There is no "one size fits all" for ethanol or biofuels.

No, nor in sustainability, nor in appropriate technology. Is there ever?

[biofuel] good points Craig

[hintertech]

I like your views on the Universe.Free energy for all



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[biofuel] Re: More free energy (maybe)

[hintertech]

Thanks for that Craig

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], craig reece <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Keith,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> > 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.stm
> > BBC News 25 April, 2002
> > Universe in 'endless cycle'
> > Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning and it 
will
> > have no end.
> 
> I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a universe 
with no
> beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and always 
will
> be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a finite
> universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the mud" 
that
> started the chemical reactions that led to organic life answers one
> question (how did life originate?) but raises more questions - such 
as
> "where did the mud come from?" (and what about the spark?)
> 
> Alan Watts wrote that the Eastern philosophies regard the notion of
> "beginnings" or "creation" as fundamentally flawed - to ask "how did
> Something come out of Nothing" fails to recognize the essential 
inter
> relatedness of the two - and the proper question is:
> 
> "How did Something-and-Nothing" (hyphenated to show their total 
inter
> relatedness - two sides of the same coin) come out of What?" With 
the
> obvious subtext that whatever Something-and-Nothing (aka our 
material
> universe) arose out of something that always was here and always 
will
> be..
> 
> I return you to you regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> Craig



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Origins and Ends #2...was RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Appal Energy]

Harmon,

Yes. I've been here for the past week and longer. I guess I just
dismissed whatever thread you seem to be referring to as
non-poignant to whatever was going on in this sphere of influence
at the time.

The observation relative to religious isolationisms was in some
part just tongue in cheek.

The leaders of all groups, parties, sects, affiliations, factions
or religions are inevitably and without fail called "con men" and
their followers "dupes" by others holding different belief
systems or understandings - sometimes justly so and sometimes
with no justification.

Whose to say that the origins of Christianity were any more or
less cultic than any other religious following before or after?
Apparently many of the day believed it to be so.

The simple truth of the matter is that no one "knows" what the
reality of spirit is anymore than anyone knows "the one true
path" to "nirvana."

Everyone's got a pretty good idea, and most of the bets are on
the same horse...that it has nothing to do with winning or
losing, victory or vanquished, visibility or works or
"historical" record.

Which is actually what makes spirit and "spirtuality" a most
remarkable thing...that it's an inward and personal journey,
where affiliations, weapons and words serve no purpose. Religion,
on the other hand, is a completely different reality.

Personally, I'd rather remain in complete awe of the complexities
and infinite uniqueness of the broader existance in which we
participate than get caught up in the passion and narcotic fervor
of any party line.

Yoda

- Original Message -
From: Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)


> On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:48:51PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote:
> > In answer to your question...probably not.
> > At least not when you put your premise under the light of
"con
> > men."
> > I'm just curious why, if your going to couch the origins of
> > religions in such a light, Christianity was omitted?
>
>  I guess you weren't reading the list for the last two
weeks or so?
> Also, it's not me "couching" them in any light -- read the
biographies of the
> two men. Simply a matter of extremely well documented fact, as
much as their
> dupes -- er, followers -- wish it weren't so. Just as the facts
about
> christianity and church history are indisputablely documented.
It's just a
> matter of doing a bit of research.
>
> >
> > Shoot, if your going to start a brawl, you might as well get
> > everyone in the house involved to insure total and mutually
> > self-assured destruction.
>
>And it's not I starting anything - I just respond to
statements proponents of
> various religions put forth. Religious propaganda always needs
a little daylight
> shown on it, who knows, the friction created might actually
develop real free
> engergy. Something like cold fusion -- hot friction. Strikes
sparks at least,
> which is about what they got with cold fusion IIRC.
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [biofuel] Energy crops

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

I guess I'd look at some sort of "average yield per acre in tons per
year" and then try to get decent numbers for "average fertilizer used
per acre" (or per ton if one can then translate via algebra) for a
given crop and "average number of gallons of fuel used in plowing per
acre (or per tone)".

I'm not knowledgable about farming, but I'm ok with numbers, so I
think it shouldn't be that hard to come up with some imperfect but
somewhat useable numbers given a variety of folks putting in where
they are knowledgable.

>> If the yield per ton graph which is on the same page brings out that 
>> different
>> crops have different mass yields from different acreages, then I wonder if 
>> this
>> also ties in with a significant difference in the energy and fertilizer one 
>> must
>> invest in each of the crops to get it to harvest.  
>
>
> I wonder how you'd go about that. 
>
> In a book called: 
> "Consuming Power - A Social History of American Energies" (**)
> by David E. Nye (copyright 1998 reprinted 1999)
> The MIT Press 
> Cambridge, Massachusetts
> London, England
>
> it is written: "A man walking behind a plow traversed more than 8 miles
> to turn over an acre and more than 1300 miles to plow a quarter-section
> [160 acres].2  Tractors changed that, in conjunction with the
> Country Life Movement (which advocated the application of "scientific,
> standardized, and mechanized production which would increase food supplies
> and lower prices"3.  The Smith-Lever Act of 1914 sent extension agents
> into the countryside to educate farmers in scientific agriculture,
> but farmers were"  pg.188 
>
> "A two-plow tractor covered as much ground as eight horses could in a day,
> a three-plow tractor as much as eleven horses.10"  pg.188 
>
>
> Correct me but I believe a riding tractor requires 
> 10 horse power per plow (dependent on plow size which 
> would vary time and energy required per acre). 


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Harmon Seaver]

On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:48:51PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote:
> In answer to your question...probably not.
> At least not when you put your premise under the light of "con
> men."
> I'm just curious why, if your going to couch the origins of
> religions in such a light, Christianity was omitted?

 I guess you weren't reading the list for the last two weeks or so? 
Also, it's not me "couching" them in any light -- read the biographies of the
two men. Simply a matter of extremely well documented fact, as much as their
dupes -- er, followers -- wish it weren't so. Just as the facts about
christianity and church history are indisputablely documented. It's just a
matter of doing a bit of research. 

> 
> Shoot, if your going to start a brawl, you might as well get
> everyone in the house involved to insure total and mutually
> self-assured destruction.

   And it's not I starting anything - I just respond to statements proponents of
various religions put forth. Religious propaganda always needs a little daylight
shown on it, who knows, the friction created might actually develop real free
engergy. Something like cold fusion -- hot friction. Strikes sparks at least,
which is about what they got with cold fusion IIRC. 


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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[biofuel] Re: New upload,lengthy personal observations (fwd)

[Amit Pratap]

##
AMIT PRATAP   ROOM NO.15
DIVISION OF OILS,SURFACTANTS  UDCT PG HOSTEL
AND OLEOCHEMICALS,UDCTMATUNGA, MUMBAI
MATUNGA, MUMBAI 400 019   TEL 4140868
TEL 44146526 (DIRECT)
4155616  EXT (402)
**

hellow.
i am a student doing ph.d. in mumbai university in oil technlogy.
my topic is related to biodiesel. can i get the latest informayiomn abt.
the trends in biodiesel. raw materials for biodiesel etc.
bye



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Re: [biofuel] recent news: BP apparently to use ethanol, not MTBE

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020502/lath078_1.html

Boy, don't you guys have any comments on this at all?  This is
out-of-nowhere.  They're actually going to do it.  I mean, just for
one thing, I've *never* seen any ethanol mix for sale in any station
in San Diego.  Now I'm going to be able to drive a bit further down
the street and buy at ARCO.  Maybe they've had it and I just haven't
seen it.  But I try to keep an eye out.

Are they well-intentioned or are they going to set ethanol up for a
year-2000-Chicago-style ambush where they drive prices way higher and
use this evidence that ethanol somehow does cost that much to
integrate?  If Davis tries to integrate an RFG program rather than an
ethanol program, will BP abandon ethanol?  How much added ethanol will
BP require additional to what they're doing now?

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[biofuel] Religion ( was More free energy )

[Greg and April]

Hey Harmon,

The same thing could be said about most religions.  I don't go around bad
mouthing your religion, please don't bad mouth mine.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "Harmon Seaver" <>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 09:25
Subject: Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)


>
> It's pretty interesting to take a really close look at the origins of
both
> Islam and Mormonism -- both religions were started by con men who made
their way
> in life by bilking people before they became "enlightened". Joseph Smith
even
> did time for it. Lots of other parallels.
>But I thought we were done with the religion/biofuels thread?
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>It's this notion of the entire universe springing out of nothingness
>that's harder for me to get my head around than to get it around the
>idea that "something" has always been here and always will be.
>> I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a universe with
>> no
>> beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and always will
>>
>> be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a finite
>> universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the mud" that
>> started the chemical reactions that led to organic life answers one
>> question (how did life originate?) but raises more questions - such as

My own working thought has also always been that what is has always
been and, unless there's something I'm missing, looks always to be.
The theorized transformations (big bang, big crunch, whatever) do not
contradict the existence of a universe and existence.  They simply
suppose transformations.  

In addition to all that, there is the issue of boundaries: just try to
talk to a scientist about the idea that there is existence and things
beyond our "Big Bang Neighborhood".  Cosmologists tend to err on the
side that unless you've proven something to exist, mathematically,
then it does not exist, nor will conversation about it with anyone, if
they can help it, nor will the reputation of the person who attempts
to change these rules, if they can help it.  They have made many
advances in thousands of years, and yet in terms of attitude and
approach, they are sometimes not one iota more enlightened, IMO, than
those who studied thousands of years ago.  They still shoot down
productive discussion with arrogant gobbledy-gook, they still err on
the side of assuming that what's in front of their nose, in the book
must be right.

In any case, I tend to agree with your statement that it's easier as
you put it, it seems to fit what is logical, as I guess I'd put it,
that there may be logic to the idea.  

I don't agree with the introduction of the topic of the mud and the
spark, as this is more a poetic issue than connected.  It is not the
same topic.  It is a matter of whence life out of the universe, and
not the same physics question of whence (if anywhere) the universe.
Yes, I think I can see the poetic point that helped you introduce the
topic of nothingness and somethingness and so forth and east and west
thinking, but it's too loaded a connection not least of which because
it's loaded with the false idea that examining the roots of our coming
into existence is the same thing, or closely related, to examining the
history of the giant physical universe that we find around us.

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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: "craig reece" <>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 08:15
Subject: Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)


> I quote from the BBC News article: "In the standard picture, it's
> presumed that
>the Big Bang is actually a beginning of space and time;
>that there was nothingness, and then suddenly out of
>nothingness there sprang space, time, matter,
>radiation, etcetera.
>
> It's this notion of the entire universe springing out of nothingness
> that's harder for me to get my head around than to get it around the
> idea that "something" has always been here and always will be.

I think that part of the problem is that people missunderstand the Big Bang
theory.  Just before the Big Bang, people think that nothing was around,
when the oppisite was true, the thing is, all of that something was around,
just in a very small area.

It did not come from nothing, if it did, it would voilate one of the
premises of physics "Matter / Energy can not be created nor destroied, but
changed in form".

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Appal Energy]

In answer to your question...probably not.
At least not when you put your premise under the light of "con
men."
I'm just curious why, if your going to couch the origins of
religions in such a light, Christianity was omitted?

Shoot, if your going to start a brawl, you might as well get
everyone in the house involved to insure total and mutually
self-assured destruction.

Yoda

> It's pretty interesting to take a really close look at the
origins of both
> Islam and Mormonism -- both religions were started by con men
who made their way
> in life by bilking people before they became "enlightened".
Joseph Smith even
> did time for it. Lots of other parallels.
>But I thought we were done with the religion/biofuels
thread?
>
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com



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Origins and Ends...was RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Appal Energy]

What was was.
What is is.
What will be will be.

The only two unanswered questions are "how?" and "why?"


- Original Message -
From: kirk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 11:10 AM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)


>
> A Moslem friend of mine sent me a cd with a bunch of video
presentations
> refuting Darwin etc and talking about the big bang.
> I think most people believe Moslems believe something strange.
As a
> Christian I found little to disagree with. The snip below from
Harun Yahya,
> a Moslem evangelist, is a representative sample. The big bang
needs to be
> seen in its entirety as there are some fascinating aspects. The
velocity of
> the bang if altered even 1% would result in a mostly empty
night sky and so
> on.
>
> The main difference I see between Islam and Christianity is
they don't know
> who Jesus is. Beyond that the similarities are greater than the
differences.
>
> Kirk
>
>
> http://www.harunyahya.com/70god_created_sci08.php
> God Created the Universe from Nothing
>
> HARUN YAHYA
>
> With ample evidence discovered by science, the thesis of an
"infinite
> universe" was tossed onto the scrap-heap of the history of
scientific ideas.
> Yet, more important questions were forthcoming: what existed
before the Big
> Bang? What force could have caused the great explosion that
resulted in a
> universe that did not exist before?
>
> There is a single answer to be given to the question of what
existed before
> the Big Bang: God, the All-powerful and the Almighty, Who
created the earth
> and the heavens in great order. Many scientists, be they
believers or not,
> are obliged to admit this truth. Although they may decline to
admit this
> fact on scientific platforms, their confessions in between the
lines give
> them away. Renowned atheist philosopher Anthony Flew says:
>
> Notoriously, confession is good for the soul. I will therefore
begin by
> confessing that the Stratonician atheist has to be embarrassed
by the
> contemporary cosmological consensus. For it seems that the
cosmologists are
> providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas contended could
not be
> proved philosophically; namely, that the universe had a
beginning. So long
> as the universe can be comfortably thought of as being not only
without end
> but also beginning, it remains easy to urge that its brute
existence, and
> whatever are found to be its most fundamental features, should
be accepted
> as the explanatory ultimates. Although I believe that it
remains still
> correct, it certainly is neither easy nor comfortable to
maintain this
> position in the face of the Big Bang story. (Henry Margenau,
Roy Abraham
> Vargesse, Cosmos, Bios, Theos, La Salla IL: Open Court
Publishing, 1992, p.
> 241).
>
> Some scientists like the British materialist physicist H. P.
Lipson confess
> that they have to accept the Big Bang theory whether they want
it or not:
>
> If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of
atoms, natural
> forces, and radiation, how has it come into being?… I think,
however, that
> we must…admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation.
I know that
> this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we
must not
> reject that we do not like if the experimental evidence
supports it. (H. P.
> Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution", Physics Bulletin,
vol. 138, 1980,
> p. 138).
>
> In conclusion, science points to a single reality whether
materialist
> scientists like it or not. Matter and time have been created by
a Creator,
> Who is All-Powerful and Who created the heavens, the earth and
all that is
> in between: Almighty God.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: craig reece [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 8:15 AM
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)
>
>
> I quote from the BBC News article: "In the standard picture,
it's
> presumed that
>the Big Bang is actually a beginning of space
and time;
>that there was nothingness, and then suddenly
out of
>nothingness there sprang space, time, matter,
>radiation, etcetera.
>
> It's this notion of the entire universe springing out of
nothingness
> that's harder for me to get my head around than to get it
around the
> idea that "something" has always been here and always will be.
>
> Craig
>
> craig reece wrote:
>
> >  Keith,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > >
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.
stm
> >
> > > BBC News 25 April, 2002
> > > Universe in 'endless cycle'
> > > Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning
and it will
> >
> > > have no end.
> >
> > I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a
universe with
> > no
> > beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and
always will
> >
> > be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a
finite
> > universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the
mud" t

[biofuel] Cosmological stuff (was More free energy (maybe)

[craig reece]

Will do.

Craig

Kris Book wrote:

>  If you guys can't stop discussing religion, at least change
> the subject line so that those who are willing to follow
> the rules can simply delete these off topic posts.
> ---


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Kris Book]

If you guys can't stop discussing religion, at least change
the subject line so that those who are willing to follow
the rules can simply delete these off topic posts.
--- Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:10:47AM -0600, kirk wrote:
> > 
> > A Moslem friend of mine sent me a cd with a bunch of
> video presentations
> > refuting Darwin etc and talking about the big bang.
> > I think most people believe Moslems believe something
> strange. As a
> > Christian I found little to disagree with. The snip
> below from Harun Yahya,
> > a Moslem evangelist, is a representative sample. The
> big bang needs to be
> > seen in its entirety as there are some fascinating
> aspects. The velocity of
> > the bang if altered even 1% would result in a mostly
> empty night sky and so
> > on.
> > 
> > The main difference I see between Islam and
> Christianity is they don't know
> > who Jesus is. Beyond that the similarities are greater
> than the differences.
> > 
> 
> It's pretty interesting to take a really close look
> at the origins of both
> Islam and Mormonism -- both religions were started by con
> men who made their way
> in life by bilking people before they became
> "enlightened". Joseph Smith even
> did time for it. Lots of other parallels.
>But I thought we were done with the religion/biofuels
> thread?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Harmon Seaver 
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
> 


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[biofuel] Re: Coop advice

[manickh]

This is a good idea to pursue globally too. The Palm Oil Research 
Institute of Malaysia (PORIM) began experiments on biodiesel many 
years ago. It is quite probable that they might take up your idea of 
setting up cooperatives there. They also have many refineries to 
bring up crude palm oil to any SVO/biodiesel mix ratios which might 
be appropriate as auto fuels. I think we can also harness 
cellulloses, starches and sugar-cane into ethanol/ester derivatives 
as perfect substitutes for leaded or 'green' petrols that contain 
deadly carcinogens like benzene. Let me illustrate:- All 10 friends 
who worked with benzene at my workplace are dead of cancer. Exactly 
like the asbestos story. The director of the establishment downplayed 
the causes...and also became famous from the discoveries made 
therefrom.. the doctors would not certify that the deaths were 
benzene related..God,when will all this madness end.  

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jonathan Pennington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Speaking of small producers and coops, can a couple people who have
> successfully started biodiesel coops please contact me by email or
> phone (843.881.0734). I'm moving to Oregon sometime next year, but
> would like to start a coop here in Charleston, SC until I leave, and
> leave it behind when I go. I'm building a trailer to haul my small
> biodiesel processor to schools, and have dozens of college and high
> school educators wanting me to bring it by and give presentations
> (even a couple middle schools). I figure I have enough interest to
> have a small coop here, which I think would be a nice thing to leave
> behind when I go- assuming I don't have to pay the Big Oil Bastards
> $50,000 or so to do something positive.
> 
> Thanks,
> -J
> -- 
> Jonathan Pennington   |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> "It's hard to take life too seriously
> when you realize yours is a joke." -original


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Harmon Seaver]

On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:10:47AM -0600, kirk wrote:
> 
> A Moslem friend of mine sent me a cd with a bunch of video presentations
> refuting Darwin etc and talking about the big bang.
> I think most people believe Moslems believe something strange. As a
> Christian I found little to disagree with. The snip below from Harun Yahya,
> a Moslem evangelist, is a representative sample. The big bang needs to be
> seen in its entirety as there are some fascinating aspects. The velocity of
> the bang if altered even 1% would result in a mostly empty night sky and so
> on.
> 
> The main difference I see between Islam and Christianity is they don't know
> who Jesus is. Beyond that the similarities are greater than the differences.
> 

It's pretty interesting to take a really close look at the origins of both
Islam and Mormonism -- both religions were started by con men who made their way
in life by bilking people before they became "enlightened". Joseph Smith even
did time for it. Lots of other parallels.
   But I thought we were done with the religion/biofuels thread?



-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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RE: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[kirk]

A Moslem friend of mine sent me a cd with a bunch of video presentations
refuting Darwin etc and talking about the big bang.
I think most people believe Moslems believe something strange. As a
Christian I found little to disagree with. The snip below from Harun Yahya,
a Moslem evangelist, is a representative sample. The big bang needs to be
seen in its entirety as there are some fascinating aspects. The velocity of
the bang if altered even 1% would result in a mostly empty night sky and so
on.

The main difference I see between Islam and Christianity is they don't know
who Jesus is. Beyond that the similarities are greater than the differences.

Kirk


http://www.harunyahya.com/70god_created_sci08.php
God Created the Universe from Nothing

HARUN YAHYA

With ample evidence discovered by science, the thesis of an "infinite
universe" was tossed onto the scrap-heap of the history of scientific ideas.
Yet, more important questions were forthcoming: what existed before the Big
Bang? What force could have caused the great explosion that resulted in a
universe that did not exist before?

There is a single answer to be given to the question of what existed before
the Big Bang: God, the All-powerful and the Almighty, Who created the earth
and the heavens in great order. Many scientists, be they believers or not,
are obliged to admit this truth. Although they may decline to admit this
fact on scientific platforms, their confessions in between the lines give
them away. Renowned atheist philosopher Anthony Flew says:

Notoriously, confession is good for the soul. I will therefore begin by
confessing that the Stratonician atheist has to be embarrassed by the
contemporary cosmological consensus. For it seems that the cosmologists are
providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas contended could not be
proved philosophically; namely, that the universe had a beginning. So long
as the universe can be comfortably thought of as being not only without end
but also beginning, it remains easy to urge that its brute existence, and
whatever are found to be its most fundamental features, should be accepted
as the explanatory ultimates. Although I believe that it remains still
correct, it certainly is neither easy nor comfortable to maintain this
position in the face of the Big Bang story. (Henry Margenau, Roy Abraham
Vargesse, Cosmos, Bios, Theos, La Salla IL: Open Court Publishing, 1992, p.
241).

Some scientists like the British materialist physicist H. P. Lipson confess
that they have to accept the Big Bang theory whether they want it or not:

If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural
forces, and radiation, how has it come into being?… I think, however, that
we must…admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that
this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not
reject that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it. (H. P.
Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution", Physics Bulletin, vol. 138, 1980,
p. 138).

In conclusion, science points to a single reality whether materialist
scientists like it or not. Matter and time have been created by a Creator,
Who is All-Powerful and Who created the heavens, the earth and all that is
in between: Almighty God.


-Original Message-
From: craig reece [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 8:15 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)


I quote from the BBC News article: "In the standard picture, it's
presumed that
   the Big Bang is actually a beginning of space and time;
   that there was nothingness, and then suddenly out of
   nothingness there sprang space, time, matter,
   radiation, etcetera.

It's this notion of the entire universe springing out of nothingness
that's harder for me to get my head around than to get it around the
idea that "something" has always been here and always will be.

Craig

craig reece wrote:

>  Keith,
>
> You wrote:
>
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.stm
>
> > BBC News 25 April, 2002
> > Universe in 'endless cycle'
> > Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning and it will
>
> > have no end.
>
> I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a universe with
> no
> beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and always will
>
> be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a finite
> universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the mud" that
> started the chemical reactions that led to organic life answers one
> question (how did life originate?) but raises more questions - such as
>
> "where did the mud come from?" (and what about the spark?)
>
> Alan Watts wrote that the Eastern philosophies regard the notion of
> "beginnings" or "creation" as fundamentally flawed - to ask "how did
> Something come out of Nothing" fails to recognize the essential inter
> relatedness of the two

Re: [biofuel] Biofuel

[robert luis rabello]

Keith Addison wrote:

> It came to nothing, did it? That's a pity. You didn't get as far as
> translating Lohman's thesis, did you?

I managed to translate five pages from the "Allg. Infos" section before
Georg contacted me and asked me to stop.  He told me he thought I was doing a
good job, but maybe he was just being polite. . .

>
> http://www.biocar.de/download/diplomarbeit_soyk.pdf
> Diplomarbeit: "Eignung von aufbereiteten Altfetten zum Betrieb eines
> Dieselmotors"
> = (according to Google) Thesis (diploma): "suitability from prepared
> old fats to the enterprise of a diesel engine"
>
> I think we'd all like to give that an eye-balling.

I've downloaded the pdf file. It's 145 pages long, and that would take a
very long time to translate!!!

> And he's not interested? He should listen to you.

I think we're having trouble communicating because of the language
barrier.  My English is hard for him to understand, and without a dictionary,
I know very little German.  This is really a shame, because the Biocar system
looks well engineered, and if it performs as Herr Lohman claims, it would
give any diesel engine the capability to run SVO without additional
modifications.  Of course, other dual tank diesel and SVO systems are already
on the market.  Perhaps Herr Lohman is afraid that other people will steal
his idea.

robert luis rabello


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[craig reece]

I quote from the BBC News article: "In the standard picture, it's
presumed that
   the Big Bang is actually a beginning of space and time;
   that there was nothingness, and then suddenly out of
   nothingness there sprang space, time, matter,
   radiation, etcetera.

It's this notion of the entire universe springing out of nothingness
that's harder for me to get my head around than to get it around the
idea that "something" has always been here and always will be.

Craig

craig reece wrote:

>  Keith,
>
> You wrote:
>
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.stm
>
> > BBC News 25 April, 2002
> > Universe in 'endless cycle'
> > Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning and it will
>
> > have no end.
>
> I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a universe with
> no
> beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and always will
>
> be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a finite
> universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the mud" that
> started the chemical reactions that led to organic life answers one
> question (how did life originate?) but raises more questions - such as
>
> "where did the mud come from?" (and what about the spark?)
>
> Alan Watts wrote that the Eastern philosophies regard the notion of
> "beginnings" or "creation" as fundamentally flawed - to ask "how did
> Something come out of Nothing" fails to recognize the essential inter
> relatedness of the two - and the proper question is:
>
> "How did Something-and-Nothing" (hyphenated to show their total inter
> relatedness - two sides of the same coin) come out of What?" With the
> obvious subtext that whatever Something-and-Nothing (aka our material
> universe) arose out of something that always was here and always will
> be..
>
> I return you to you regularly scheduled programming.
>
> Craig
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[craig reece]

Keith,

You wrote:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.stm
> BBC News 25 April, 2002
> Universe in 'endless cycle'
> Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning and it will
> have no end.

I've always thought that it's easier to conceptualize a universe with no
beginning and no end - a universe that always was here and always will
be - than to try to wrap one's head arounf the notion of a finite
universe. The perculiarly Western notion of a "spark in the mud" that
started the chemical reactions that led to organic life answers one
question (how did life originate?) but raises more questions - such as
"where did the mud come from?" (and what about the spark?)

Alan Watts wrote that the Eastern philosophies regard the notion of
"beginnings" or "creation" as fundamentally flawed - to ask "how did
Something come out of Nothing" fails to recognize the essential inter
relatedness of the two - and the proper question is:

"How did Something-and-Nothing" (hyphenated to show their total inter
relatedness - two sides of the same coin) come out of What?" With the
obvious subtext that whatever Something-and-Nothing (aka our material
universe) arose out of something that always was here and always will
be..

I return you to you regularly scheduled programming.

Craig



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Re: [biofuel] Energy crops

[MH]

"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> 
> Thanks for pointing out this link, it answers some questions for me, and 
> brings
> up others.
> 
> If the yield per ton graph which is on the same page brings out that different
> crops have different mass yields from different acreages, then I wonder if 
> this
> also ties in with a significant difference in the energy and fertilizer one 
> must
> invest in each of the crops to get it to harvest.  


 I wonder how you'd go about that. 

 In a book called: 
 "Consuming Power - A Social History of American Energies" (**)
 by David E. Nye (copyright 1998 reprinted 1999)
 The MIT Press 
 Cambridge, Massachusetts
 London, England

 it is written: "A man walking behind a plow traversed more than 8 miles
 to turn over an acre and more than 1300 miles to plow a quarter-section
 [160 acres].2  Tractors changed that, in conjunction with the
 Country Life Movement (which advocated the application of "scientific,
 standardized, and mechanized production which would increase food supplies
 and lower prices"3.  The Smith-Lever Act of 1914 sent extension agents
 into the countryside to educate farmers in scientific agriculture,
 but farmers were"  pg.188 

 "A two-plow tractor covered as much ground as eight horses could in a day,
 a three-plow tractor as much as eleven horses.10"  pg.188 


 Correct me but I believe a riding tractor requires 
 10 horse power per plow (dependent on plow size which 
 would vary time and energy required per acre). 
 

 ** Fascinating book mostly on USA energy expansion of the 1700's to 1990's
 from wood, wind, water, fossil fuels and nuclear. View at www.amazon.com/books 

 A chapter by chapter outline of notes from 
 http://www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/280/nye/

 Book review referencing noted authors with similar pursuits
 http://www.eh.net/bookreviews/library/0113.shtml

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[biofuel] Coop advice

[Jonathan Pennington]

Speaking of small producers and coops, can a couple people who have
successfully started biodiesel coops please contact me by email or
phone (843.881.0734). I'm moving to Oregon sometime next year, but
would like to start a coop here in Charleston, SC until I leave, and
leave it behind when I go. I'm building a trailer to haul my small
biodiesel processor to schools, and have dozens of college and high
school educators wanting me to bring it by and give presentations
(even a couple middle schools). I figure I have enough interest to
have a small coop here, which I think would be a nice thing to leave
behind when I go- assuming I don't have to pay the Big Oil Bastards
$50,000 or so to do something positive.

Thanks,
-J
-- 
Jonathan Pennington |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"It's hard to take life too seriously
when you realize yours is a joke." -original

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[biofuel] Re: New upload,lengthy personal observations

[k5farms]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

, and people like Pimental pontificate on 
> energy inputs to ethanol and reckon they make some sense. And we've 
> all been persuaded that animal fats are bad for us. BS. No, not out 
> of date. That last aspect of the book goes well with this:
> 
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Famish/famworldToC.html
> This Famishing World
> 
> Regards
> 
> Keith

I went to answer the previous post about using cattails vs. corn for 
ethanol production, searching the web for details of co-products and 
invairiably Dr Pimentals statistics came up. I've debated with myself 
on bringing him up and you did it for me. Here's what I want to 
believe.

Pimental tried to go "outside the box" and get a more complete picture 
of all the inputs and outputs, better science so to speak, He included 
btu's for the creation of even tractor parts, etc.. He tried to look 
at the bigger picture. But, from what I understand, he missed the 
whole picture and neglected other outputs of ethanol production and 
the benefit of ethanol for the future, something that we cannot even 
measure. It is hard to measure, science has tried to measure 
BTU's,Energy content, Market value, Replacement value and output 
weight values, etc.. but none will be able to prove the "whole 
picture"!

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but I never saw Pimental pontificate, but 
certainly others used his science to do just that, much to the 
detriment of ethanol, and the flawed science made its way into ethanol 
history and thats why I understand your objections about TFP et al.

What Pimental taught me is that yes, one needs to look at the "bigger 
picture" and to keep ones eyes open for things that might have been 
missed or new science that hasn't proven yet. I hope we might all 
learn from this. And it brought out others with more advanced science 
who certainly learned from his shortcomings.

There is no "one size fits all" for ethanol or biofuels. New tools are 
needed and new ideas, plus what we've learned from history should be 
applied to how we react in the future, but alas, mankind has really 
showed his shortcomings along with his resistance to change, eh?

Thank you for JTF, it has allowed me to open my eyes and attempt to 
see a larger picture, and it keeps getting better! I got a chance to 
read the last couple of chapters of the newest installment and saw:

"The father who loves only his own children, disregarding the children 
of his neighbour, may, in the narrowness of his interests, permit a 
condition to develop among his neighbor's children that will some day 
react upon his own to their destruction."

And this was right after the "War to end all Wars"?? How humbling.

Heres another link for you: 
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2002news/bahiagrass.htm 

not to disrespect the quoted, but: 
The United States is not the only nation investigating sod-based 
rotation, said Wayne Reeves, lead scientist of conservation systems 
research at the USDA Agricultural
Research Service's Soil Dynamics Laboratory in Auburn.

"Many of our major agricultural competitors, such as Chile, Argentina 
and Brazil, are heavily researching sustainable agriculture using 
grasses," said Reeves, an affiliate
professor with Auburn University's agronomy and soils department. "So 
there is some urgency on our part, trying to get this system up and 
running before the other guy does."

Before I met JTF, this would not have raised my brow, now I ponder if 
I am in a race and just who is my opponent. As an American, again, 
very humbling!

I urge all to strive to look for a bigger picture, whether 
contemplating Jerimiah 33:3, studying www.journeytoforever.org or at 
least a simple "Good day" to your neighbor. To idly sit by and do 
nothing seems such a waste. We are in a race, the human race, and 
we're all in it togather and I really don't feel like having bad 
science telling me that its not worth it or that I've already crossed 
the finish line.

God Speed, Keep throwing on more "fuel"


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Re: [biofuel] PDF problem

[Keith Addison]

Hi Harmon and all

>   I didn't have any problem getting the pdf thru the browser -- however, I do
>notice that it seems to be *huge*, and very slow to view in acrobat, 
>so I wonder
>if the size is a problem for Motie? Some ISPs have a size limit on files
>downloaded, I have a friend who has that problem and some 
>attachments I've sent
>him just don't arrive -- the email gets there minus the attachment.

It's not that huge, it's 548kb, but the pages are graphics, not text, 
maybe that's why it took time. Acrobat's slow and clunky anyway (web 
clutter), but I didn't find it too slow, even for Acrobat.

Anyway, you can get it both ways now, either as a pdf or as html 
pages, from here:
http://journeytoforever.org//biofuel_library.html
Biofuels Library - Journey to Forever

Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol -- US 
Patent 1,704,213, E. Ricard, filed January 23, 1924. Scanned by F. 
Marc de Piolenc.
Acrobat pdf file, 524kb.
In html

I'm glad you got the attachment anyway Motie, but what's that machine 
of yours been smoking? Yes, Apple-deficient, LOL! They're not that 
expensive, I got a really good deal on this one, G4 out of the box, 
but much less than the new price. Great machine, I never have to 
bother with it, it just does whatever I want.

Best

Keith


>On Sat, May 04, 2002 at 12:27:27PM +0900, Keith Addison wrote:
> > Hi Motie and all
> >
> > 
> >
> > > Keith,
> > >I can open the library link, but not the .PDF file. I opened the
> > >library link, then tried to go to the .PDF, but I am also denied
> > >access through that method.
> > > It is a 403 ERROR(forbidden) not the common 404 ERROR(file not found)
> > >
> > >Motie
> > >This is not the only site I occasionally have that problem with. My
> > >security firewall is set HIGH. If your site requires Cookies(it
> > >didn't ask me to accept any) I should get a pop-up asking whether to
> > >allow it.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com


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Re: [biofuel] PHOTOS!!!! (BD, of course)

[Keith Addison]

>Too see the photos of my first biodiesel batches, please visit:
>
>http://www.clenoir.com/bd.htm
>
>Best to you all,
>
>Christian

Well done, Christian, that's really nice to see!

Don't stop now, eh?

Regards

Keith


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Small producers - was Re: [biofuel] Biofuel

[Keith Addison]

Gary Morris wrote:

>Is it feasible to think about making 10K gal  Is there a market.  I 
>have a Ford  non-turbo IDI  7.3 with dual exhaust. I am looking for 
>assistance in finding the best system for possibly operating SVO or 
>WVO.  I was wondering about the Bio Car from Germany as a 
>possibility.   Appreciate any help  Gary Morris   Santa Cruz CA

> Is it feasible to think about making 10K gal  Is there a market.

You can make it easily enough, and there's bound to be a market, but 
will "they" let you do it? Yes, if you pay the money - or you can 
face fines of $25,000 a day, as with one small producer. Either way 
it's big money - big enough to exclude a small producer. This is 
controversial and there are people fighting it, but that's as it 
stands now, AFAIK. That is for selling biodiesel for on-road use, 
off-road use is another matter.

Some list members know a lot about this.

Hey, you list members who know a lot about this, a summary and update 
would be downright useful, if that's too much hassle.

Best

Keith


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Re: [biofuel] Biofuel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Robert, Gary and all

>Gary Morris wrote:
>
> > Is it feasible to think about making 10K gal  Is there a market. 
>I have a Ford  non-turbo IDI  7.3 with dual exhaust. I am looking 
>for assistance in finding the best system for possibly operating SVO 
>or WVO.  I was wondering about the Bio Car from Germany as a 
>possibility.   Appreciate any help  Gary Morris   Santa Cruz CA
>
>The Biocar SVO system looks like a really good one.  (I HAD been 
>translated the web site pages for the system owner, but that's 
>another story. . .)

It came to nothing, did it? That's a pity. You didn't get as far as 
translating Lohman's thesis, did you?
http://www.biocar.de/download/diplomarbeit_soyk.pdf
Diplomarbeit: "Eignung von aufbereiteten Altfetten zum Betrieb eines 
Dieselmotors"
= (according to Google) Thesis (diploma): "suitability from prepared 
old fats to the enterprise of a diesel engine"

I think we'd all like to give that an eye-balling.

>Unfortunately, it's designed for engines smaller than 3 liters in 
>displacement.  I've told Georg Lohman that if he wants to get into 
>the North American market in a big way, he'll
>need to design a system for the common engines over here.

And he's not interested? He should listen to you.

>For the moment, you're better off talking to Ed Beggs in 
>Westbank, B.C.  His page can be found at the following link: 
>http://www.biofuels.ca

Indeed, recommended. Ed's on the list, maybe he'll reply to you Gary.

Best

Keith

>Good luck!
>
>robert luis rabello


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[biofuel] More free energy (maybe)

[Keith Addison]

Remember this? BS and bollocks, folks said at the time. O ye of little faith.

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11044&list=BIOFUEL
Info-Archive at NNYTech

Irish inventor says he's cracked world's energy needs
Wednesday, January 23, 2002
By Kevin Smith, Reuters
http://www.remnantsaints.com/AlternativeUtilities/free_energy_Ireland.htm

Couple more articles:

http://www.cosmiverse.com/science01230206.html
Science News
Irish Inventor Constructs Free Energy Device
this device is so phenomenal that it "shatters the laws of science".

http://www.chennaionline.com/science/invent.asp
The power of invention
A multi-meter reading of the batteries' voltage before the device 
started up showed a total of 48.9 volts. When it was switched off, a 
second reading showed 51.2 volts...

And, hey, a website! - and a promise (sort of):

http://www.jasker.com/
Jasker Power Systems International
It is our objective to launch the Jasker Power Systems technology on 
a global basis. Details will be posted on our web-site as they are 
released.

NOT a perpetual motion machine, it says. Aw.

The latest theory seems to state that the universe is indeed a 
perpetual motion machine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1951000/1951406.stm
BBC News 25 April, 2002
Universe in 'endless cycle'
Get your head around this: the Universe had no beginning and it will 
have no end.

So all you need really is a sort of junior-league, kitchen-table 
scale universe, or two. And maybe a couple of bottles of Irish whisky.

Keith

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Re: [biofuel] New upload in the Biofuels library

[Keith Addison]

Ken Provost wrote:

> >"The Fats and Oils: a General View", by Carl L. Alsberg and Alonzo E.
>
>A real treasure trove -- thanks, Keith.

Good! I'm glad you think so. I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot, 
but I wasn't sure others would think it relevant - it's out of date, 
and so what, we all use WVO anyway, and so on. So, thankyou! :-)

I found the later chapters, on production, trade, etc, at least as 
interesting. Eg, on how so much corn found its way to market in the 
form of pork lard, along with the importance of the manure by-product 
to crop-production. So now it's all confinement operations, the 
manure by-product is purely a pollution problem, fossil-fuel derived 
fertiler inputs have gone sky-high, along with all the Dead Zones and 
other problems thus caused, and people like Pimental pontificate on 
energy inputs to ethanol and reckon they make some sense. And we've 
all been persuaded that animal fats are bad for us. BS. No, not out 
of date. That last aspect of the book goes well with this:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Famish/famworldToC.html
This Famishing World

Regards

Keith


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