Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
Try Commercial Insurance Concepts out of Wheat Ridge, Colorado. (I have no personal affiliation with them save for one of my policies.) They are versed in everything from Inland Marine policies (transient equipment) to fixed commercial accounts. We've briefly discussed the matter in passing when I renewed last fall. They didn't seem dis-inclined to write something up for a going biodiesel concern. Everything would have to be up to speed commercially though. 4251 Kipling, Suite 190 Wheat Ridge, CO 80033 303-420-1800 Todd - Original Message - From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability > Todd, > > After about a year of research and planning to produce biodiesel from wvo, I > ran into a formidable wall which is the end for me and perhaps many others. > I could find no insurance company willing to provide liability coverage for > my operation. The more money these kinds of operations can make, the bigger > this problem is going to become. I live in Barbour County, Alabama a.k.a. > "Tort Hell". If I have missed some obvious solution please inform me. Doing > without is not an option for me. Also, the lack of product liability ins. > could present a serious barrier to market penetration. > > Hoping for a solution, > > Bill Clark > - Original Message - > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:15 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability > > > > There is only one primary point source for WVO - VO users. It's > > up to the biodiesel manufacturer who wants to use this feedstock > > to overcome the logistic issues. > > > > It's doable and profitable. Start looking at operating one 1,500 > > to 3,000 gpd facility for every 30,000 plus population center (or > > radius) and your on your way towards profitability at scale. > > > > Todd > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Robin Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:27 PM > > Subject: [biofuel] WVO Availability > > > > > > > What ideas has anyone come up with to get a decent supply of > > WVO? > > > > > > I'm thinking more of the small town approach - small industrial > > (logging, mining etc) of 30,000 or less. You have all the fast > > foods but realistically the turn over of VO is not that great. > > These towns have huge potential for biodiesel with many ford, > > dodge and Chevy trucks running around, but if there isn't the > > availability then there is no point in putting the > > energy/finances into a setup to produce the fuel. > > > > > > What other sources are there? > > > > > > Robin > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:45 AM, James Slayden wrote: > What are the usual titrations on your oil blend? Also, > what is your batch success? I think that eth processing > is very interesting to many people and this info would be > appreciated. My last batch titrated at 1.8 ml using 0.1% NaOH soln, and that's the worst I had in a while. Usually it's around 0.7 ml. which works great. I got a drum of corn oil from a tortilla chip factory which titrates around 3 ml, and is also quite polymerized. I onlt use a bit in each batch, just so I can get thru it EVENTUALLY, but I guess I used too much. It separated, but only after the kicker was added. Success rate is 100% for a year now. In fact, I only had one batch ever that I couldn't get to separate, and I think that was due to inadequate drying of BOTH the oil and some recovered ethanol. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
What are the usual titrations on your oil blend? Also, what is your batch success? I think that eth processing is very interesting to many people and this info would be appreciated. Thanks, James Slayden On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Ken Provost wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:02 AM, James Slayden wrote: > > > I noticed the 5:1 eth:meth ratio both on JTF and in your postings. > > Since > > your doing the "kicker" of meth after the initial reaction, might it > > just > > be better to up the meth in meth/eth oxide mix, to something like > > 3:1? How much meth are you adding in the kicker phase to the whole > > reaction? Also, are you using WVO or crude oil. I thought I remember > > a > > posting just recently that you had various drums of oil in your garage, > > and something about salad . ;-) > > I believe the kicker functions differently than if the same amount of > total methanol were included from the beginning. The first phase > with ethanol and methanol allows the equilibrium to go as far as it can > without glycerine separation, and allows the ethanol time to react > which seems slower than the methanol reaction. The kicker is > specifically intended to initiate separation, which pulls the > equilibrium > the rest of the way. Amounts are detailed in my write-up. > > I haven't rigorously investigated this, because it's rather difficult. > One > would have to find just the right combination of the right ingredients > such that you could get separation using the kicker approach, but not > if you put in all the methanol up front. In other words, there are many > more examples where the result is negative than there are where it's > positive. In the absence of proof, I just adopt the method that seems > sensible and leave the rigor to others :-) > > My oil is a mix of WVO and flush oil, selecting from sesame, olive, and > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:02 AM, James Slayden wrote: > I noticed the 5:1 eth:meth ratio both on JTF and in your postings. > Since > your doing the "kicker" of meth after the initial reaction, might it > just > be better to up the meth in meth/eth oxide mix, to something like > 3:1? How much meth are you adding in the kicker phase to the whole > reaction? Also, are you using WVO or crude oil. I thought I remember > a > posting just recently that you had various drums of oil in your garage, > and something about salad . ;-) I believe the kicker functions differently than if the same amount of total methanol were included from the beginning. The first phase with ethanol and methanol allows the equilibrium to go as far as it can without glycerine separation, and allows the ethanol time to react which seems slower than the methanol reaction. The kicker is specifically intended to initiate separation, which pulls the equilibrium the rest of the way. Amounts are detailed in my write-up. I haven't rigorously investigated this, because it's rather difficult. One would have to find just the right combination of the right ingredients such that you could get separation using the kicker approach, but not if you put in all the methanol up front. In other words, there are many more examples where the result is negative than there are where it's positive. In the absence of proof, I just adopt the method that seems sensible and leave the rigor to others :-) My oil is a mix of WVO and flush oil, selecting from sesame, olive, and coconut as dictated by the weather conditions. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
Ken, I noticed the 5:1 eth:meth ratio both on JTF and in your postings. Since your doing the "kicker" of meth after the initial reaction, might it just be better to up the meth in meth/eth oxide mix, to something like 3:1? How much meth are you adding in the kicker phase to the whole reaction? Also, are you using WVO or crude oil. I thought I remember a posting just recently that you had various drums of oil in your garage, and something about salad . ;-) James Slayden On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Ken Provost wrote: > Matt writes: > > >I have just tried to make a 1 litre batch of biodiesel using > >ethanol (200 proof IDAA denatured ) using the instructions > >on Journey to forever. I titrated the oil to 3.7g and used the > >recommended 7 g/l as a start point before titration. > > > Check those instructions again, Matt. Your oil is awfully high in > FFAs -- half your level is about the max I would ever attempt > with ethanol. Also, I'd strongly advise using KOH at 10g/l plus > titr. rather than NaOH at 7, especially for oil with over 1ml > titr. > > > > >I did ask myself why would you use 7 grams, when 3.5 is normal > >and the alcohol should make no real difference. > > > Methanol is more acidic (in alkaline conditions) than ethanol by > quite a bit. More concentrated alkali is required with ethanol in > order to "persuade" the ethanol to give up its H+ ion and form > an ethoxide ion. > > > >Anyway the predicatable happened, with 10.7 grams of Naoh and > >300 ml of ethanol I now have 1 litre of jelly. > > > Yup. Use cleaner oil and KOH. Check the instructions again. Try my > eth/meth mixture idea, as well as the "methanol kicker" after a couple > hours. I have pretty good luck these days starting with 5:1 eth:meth > and tossing in straight methoxide to initiate separation after the > initial partial reaction. It won't let you get away from methanol > entirely, but you use a lot less. -K > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > HGTV Dream Home Giveaway > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
Todd, After about a year of research and planning to produce biodiesel from wvo, I ran into a formidable wall which is the end for me and perhaps many others. I could find no insurance company willing to provide liability coverage for my operation. The more money these kinds of operations can make, the bigger this problem is going to become. I live in Barbour County, Alabama a.k.a. "Tort Hell". If I have missed some obvious solution please inform me. Doing without is not an option for me. Also, the lack of product liability ins. could present a serious barrier to market penetration. Hoping for a solution, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability > There is only one primary point source for WVO - VO users. It's > up to the biodiesel manufacturer who wants to use this feedstock > to overcome the logistic issues. > > It's doable and profitable. Start looking at operating one 1,500 > to 3,000 gpd facility for every 30,000 plus population center (or > radius) and your on your way towards profitability at scale. > > Todd > > - Original Message - > From: Robin Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:27 PM > Subject: [biofuel] WVO Availability > > > > What ideas has anyone come up with to get a decent supply of > WVO? > > > > I'm thinking more of the small town approach - small industrial > (logging, mining etc) of 30,000 or less. You have all the fast > foods but realistically the turn over of VO is not that great. > These towns have huge potential for biodiesel with many ford, > dodge and Chevy trucks running around, but if there isn't the > availability then there is no point in putting the > energy/finances into a setup to produce the fuel. > > > > What other sources are there? > > > > Robin > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
Matt writes: >I have just tried to make a 1 litre batch of biodiesel using >ethanol (200 proof IDAA denatured ) using the instructions >on Journey to forever. I titrated the oil to 3.7g and used the >recommended 7 g/l as a start point before titration. Check those instructions again, Matt. Your oil is awfully high in FFAs -- half your level is about the max I would ever attempt with ethanol. Also, I'd strongly advise using KOH at 10g/l plus titr. rather than NaOH at 7, especially for oil with over 1ml titr. > >I did ask myself why would you use 7 grams, when 3.5 is normal >and the alcohol should make no real difference. Methanol is more acidic (in alkaline conditions) than ethanol by quite a bit. More concentrated alkali is required with ethanol in order to "persuade" the ethanol to give up its H+ ion and form an ethoxide ion. >Anyway the predicatable happened, with 10.7 grams of Naoh and >300 ml of ethanol I now have 1 litre of jelly. Yup. Use cleaner oil and KOH. Check the instructions again. Try my eth/meth mixture idea, as well as the "methanol kicker" after a couple hours. I have pretty good luck these days starting with 5:1 eth:meth and tossing in straight methoxide to initiate separation after the initial partial reaction. It won't let you get away from methanol entirely, but you use a lot less. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hey Todd Was: capstone turbine generator
Overwhelmed and underpaid. > Hey Todd!! Wuz up!! > > Long time no hear! > > Curtis Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Article on discrediting of Lomborg
http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=480 I guess that he is one of the darlings of those Politicos who are opposed to most environmental thinking shows not their interest in science but their selectiveness and lack of ability in choosing scientists to whom to listen. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
I have just tried to make a 1 litre batch of biodiesel using ethanol (200 proof IDAA denatured ) using the instructions on Journey to forever. I titrated the oil to 3.7g and used the recommended 7 g/l as a start point before titration. I did ask myself why would you use 7 grams, when 3.5 is normal and the alcohol should make no real difference. Anyway the predicatable happened, with 10.7 grams of Naoh and 300 ml of ethanol I now have 1 litre of jelly. This is usual for a situation with too much NaOH. I strongly suspect 7 grams per litre as a start point may be wrong, can anyone advise on this, and if they had success. I would like to try this out for the methanol safety reasons. I was given 1 litre of this ethanol and I do not want to waste it at 30% usage per litre of oil as it will not go far. Many thanks, Matt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Fiat UNO Diesel on Biodiesel?
Hi Poch I own an Italian Fiat UNO DS from 1989 with a 1.3 L engine. Most of the parts are made in Italy. I has an 1.3 L diesel engine, IDI, non turbo, model 27A made in Brazil. Here in Paraguay, later Fiat UNO DS models were sold with a 1.7 L FIAT diesel engine. I use our local low quality petroleum diesel, never with Biodiesel, some 2000 Km with a mixture of 20% veg oil during our hot spring time (25 - 35o C). I had many troubles with that car, at 53000 Km the circular clip that secures the rod in one piston failed and the piston broke in pieces, later it burned the head gasket once because the electric fan of the radiator failed at 82000 Km, then last october the water temperature controler failed at 88000 Km in a day with temperatures reaching +40o C, the engine temp. reached 105o C and one valve burned and one cam of the cam shaft was damaged. I will sell it I used the car in long trips of 750 Km long with 300 Km of dusty/muddy/sandy roads, running on second and third geard in the dusty/muddy road and temperatures in the range of 15 - 37o C. I had to rebuild twice most of the engine, first time it costed me (7 years ago) almost US $ 1100 and the second time during this hollydays US $ 630 :-( The Fiat UNO DS 1989 has a very low fuel consuption, I recorded 4.5 L /100 Km at 90 Km/h in a 198 Km trip with low hills and the worse was 9 L / 100 Km in a dusty and sandy road during the summer with most of the time using 2nd and 3rd gears. I would not recomend to buy one if look for a reliable car. Its fuel consuption is really low but maintemance cost are high. Why? I own an old 4x4 Nissan Safari with a 3.3 L turbo engine its fuel consuption is 3.2 times compared wit the Fiat but it never had an engine problem with the same road during 15 Km, some 6000 Km with 15% veg oil and 85% petroleum diesel on long trips and hot days. Regards Juan -- From : Poch [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send : Martes 14 de Enero de 2003 01:06 PM To :biofuel@yahoogroups.com Re :[biofuel] Fiat UNO Diesel on Biodiesel? anyone here owns and runs a Fiat UNO diesel car on biodiesel. any feedback will be appreciated. looking for a small used diesel car in manila and i came upon a great deal on a Fiat UNO diesel car 1992. im on a very tight budget. Cheers Poch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
